Barton

[LeadBelly]

I prefer to listen to jazz while watching football on the telly

Niice

jazz.jpg (15.07 KiB) Viewed 6759 times

[TheFamilyCat]

Commentary is a thing in and of itself - a good pundit doesn't necessarily make a good commentator and vice versa.

If you'd bother actually reading my point I said anyone can commentate and provide analysis on a game of football - just that only a select amount can relay their experience with playing at a certain level and what it entails.

Of course there's some terrible male pundits and they too deserve to be scrutinised. I'm sure there's plenty of brilliant, articulate people with a great knowledge of the tactical side of game, that would give better analysis than most on TV that never played past Sunday League.

Garth Crooks gets plenty of criticism (rightly so) and no one bats an eyelid at those criticising him.

That's because it is criticism of his ability (or lack of). Saying that women can't possible comment on the men's game is completely different.

[CoolClaret]

If you read my post you’d know I said no one within the industry highlights what a wazzock Crooks is

Women who’ve played at the highest level of their game can relay their experience because it’s relevant

They’ll experience the same emotions etc as the men
They’ll have the same idea of pre match routines
They have to work hard to reach that level

The issue isn’t the women, it never usually is

I think Crooks is just equally laughed at by everyone tbh, feels like a running joke almost.

I disagree there. The intensity, pressure and feel is miles off. I'll concede in a World Cup/National team match but there's something unique someone like Souness has with experiencing some of the fiercest derbies in world football - even inciting a riot at one of them!

It's just not comparable.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I think Crooks is just equally laughed at by everyone tbh, feels like a running joke almost.

I disagree there. The intensity, pressure and feel is miles off. I'll concede in a World Cup/National team match but there's something unique someone like Souness has with experiencing some of the fiercest derbies in world football - even inciting a riot at one of them!

It's just not comparable.

The intensity is the same for any professional, like I said, the issue isn’t the women it’s the outdated views of the men as always

[boatshed bill]

Niice
jazz.jpg

That's me

[TheFamilyCat]

I think Crooks is just equally laughed at by everyone tbh, feels like a running joke almost.

I disagree there. The intensity, pressure and feel is miles off. I'll concede in a World Cup/National team match but there's something unique someone like Souness has with experiencing some of the fiercest derbies in world football - even inciting a riot at one of them!

It's just not comparable.

The pundits are there to discuss the game, not their careers.

[CoolClaret]

That's because it is criticism of his ability (or lack of). Saying that women can't possible comment on the men's game is completely different.

Of course - anyone can comment on the game.

No one criticises Kate Abdo/Laura Woods/Kelly Cates because they're genuinely brilliant presenters and add to their respective shows, massively.

An ex-player, even if a poor pundit gets more of a pass because you can at least say they've been there and wore the t-shirt (though if they're terrible should be nowhere near it).

[CoolClaret]

The intensity is the same for any professional, like I said, the issue isn’t the women it’s the outdated views of the men as always

It really isn't - at all.

Mental if you even think that.

Is the Championship as intense as the PL?

[CoolClaret]

The pundits are there to discuss the game, not their careers.

Why does everything need explicit clarification here? Is there no room for inference, or must every detail be explicitly stated?..Getting beyond boring

If the goal is purely technical analysis, then yes, a team of skilled football analysts would suffice - don't even need ex-players to do that.

However that isn't the case; discussions often delve into nuances like manager-player dynamics, the pressures unique to certain clubs, and the intensity of derbies and rivalries. These aspects are best articulated by those who have personally experienced and navigated these situations.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It really isn't - at all.

Mental if you even think that.

Is the Championship as intense as the PL?

Why is it mental?

A cup final is intense for any professional player
There will be that moment where you could be the star or the villain, or both

The championship is as intense as the PL for the players yes, mental that you think it isn’t

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Why does everything need explicit clarification here? Is there no room for inference, or must every detail be explicitly stated?..Getting beyond boring

If the goal is purely technical analysis, then yes, a team of skilled football analysts would suffice - don't even need ex-players to do that.

However that isn't the case; discussions often delve into nuances like manager-player dynamics, the pressures unique to certain clubs, and the intensity of derbies and rivalries. These aspects are best articulated by those who have personally experienced and navigated these situations.

So you’re saying the women won’t have experience of the nuances of the game that they play?

The women aren’t the issue, look closer to home ….

[CoolClaret]

Why is it mental?

A cup final is intense for any professional player
There will be that moment where you could be the star or the villain, or both

The championship is as intense as the PL for the players yes, mental that you think it isn’t

I've played in a few Lancs cups finals in Rugby - seems I know exactly what it's like to be walking out at Wembley for an FA Cup final then

No - it's completely different! Have you seen how many players for United were stars at lesser clubs then totally fall to pot? The pressures, intensity, expectation is completely different, there's nothing more to add.

A woman misses a penalty kick in an FA Cup final and it's hardly news. People still go on about John Terry slipping during the 2008 champions league final. It is extremely different.

[jlup1980]

Of course - anyone can comment on the game.

No one criticises Kate Abdo/Laura Woods/Kelly Cates because they're genuinely brilliant presenters and add to their respective shows, massively.

An ex-player, even if a poor pundit gets more of a pass because you can at least say they've been there and wore the t-shirt (though if they're terrible should be nowhere near it).

I think this is the point. Some pundits are good, some are bad. It doesn't matter whether they're men or women.

I've always liked Gabby Logan as a presenter and Alex Scott was very good when she started doing punditry. She's pushed herself into presenting a variety of programmes now and I think she comes across well. Rachel Brown-Finnis is also very good in my opinion. However, I don't rate Fara Williams or Eni Aluko. It's horses for courses. Michael Owen is dreadful and there are bacteria on the Moon who know Garth Crooks has been stealing a living for decades... and don't get me started on the Talksport presenters. Is anyone more annoying than Jason Cundy?

[Bosscat]

I think this is the point. Some pundits are good, some are bad. It doesn't matter whether they're men or women.

I've always liked Gabby Logan as a presenter and Alex Scott was very good when she started doing punditry. She's pushed herself into presenting a variety of programmes now and I think she comes across well. Rachel Brown-Finnis is also very good in my opinion. However, I don't rate Fara Williams or Eni Aluko. It's horses for courses. Michael Owen is dreadful and there are bacteria on the Moon who know Garth Crooks has been stealing a living for decades... and don't get me started on the Talksport presenters. Is anyone more annoying than Jason Cundy?

Sums it up perfectly ... Great post jlup

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I've played in a few Lancs cups finals in Rugby - seems I know exactly what it's like to be walking out at Wembley for an FA Cup final then

No - it's completely different! Have you seen how many players for United were stars at lesser clubs then totally fall to pot? The pressures, intensity, expectation is completely different, there's nothing more to add.

A woman misses a penalty kick in an FA Cup final and it's hardly news. People still go on about John Terry slipping during the 2008 champions league final. It is extremely different.

You’re still pushing this aren’t you?

The problem isn’t the women
It’s always been men who hate women being involved in what’s perceived to be a male only environment

It’s 2023, get over it and stop pushing out crappy excuses to exclude just the women from the game when it would also apply to most male commentators

[Boss Hogg]

I’d prefer a good female pundit/commentator over a poor male one ( of which there are numerous). What is getting silly is why there now has to be a female on nearly every match you watch. This is box ticking and virtue signalling.

[CoolClaret]

You’re still pushing this aren’t you?

The problem isn’t the women
It’s always been men who hate women being involved in what’s perceived to be a male only environment

It’s 2023, get over it and stop pushing out crappy excuses to exclude just the women from the game when it would also apply to most male commentators

No I just think that either your reading comprehension is poor/you’re a bit dense or for some reason you’re trying to play ‘gotcha’ rather than actually honestly reply to my points.

Equivocating the women’s game and the men’s game in their current states is bonkers.

If a pundit is their to give insight (which they often are) then no one other than players that have played at the respective level can provide an accurate insight because they haven’t been there.

If it’s more for analysis and talking tactics/transfers etc then that is different all together, as is presenting which needs a different set of skills all together.

JB is clearly wrong with his sweeping generalisations; the discussion moved on from JB as a whole.

[boatshed bill]

No I just think that either your reading comprehension is poor/you’re a bit dense or for some reason you’re trying to play ‘gotcha’ rather than actually honestly reply to my points.

Equivocating the women’s game and the men’s game in their current states is bonkers.

If a pundit is their to give insight (which they often are) then no one other than players that have played at the respective level can provide an accurate insight because they haven’t been there.

If it’s more for analysis and talking tactics/transfers etc then that is different all together, as is presenting which needs a different set of skills all together.

JB is clearly wrong with his sweeping generalisations; the discussion moved on from JB as a whole.

No, JB isn't wrong, because he has stated his opinion (or at least an opinion that he sides with); there are posters on here pinning rather different interpretations of it.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

No I just think that either your reading comprehension is poor/you’re a bit dense or for some reason you’re trying to play ‘gotcha’ rather than actually honestly reply to my points.

Equivocating the women’s game and the men’s game in their current states is bonkers.

If a pundit is their to give insight (which they often are) then no one other than players that have played at the respective level can provide an accurate insight because they haven’t been there.

If it’s more for analysis and talking tactics/transfers etc then that is different all together, as is presenting which needs a different set of skills all together.

JB is clearly wrong with his sweeping generalisations; the discussion moved on from JB as a whole.

I know what you’re saying

You just don’t want women in men’s football, it’s clear as day
You don’t care that there are male commentators who’ve never played as various levels but are commentating on the games

It’s fine, I see what the issue is and as I’ve said it isn’t the women

[No Ney Never]

Some posters simply won't accept that others have their personal preferences.

[jedi_master]

There are ****, as well as good, female commentators and presenters.

There are ****, as well as good, male commentators and presenters.

That’s about it really.

[boatshed bill]

"There is only one thing worse than being talked about...
and that is not being talked about"

Oscar Wilde (or Joseph Barton... take your pick)

[HahaYeah]

I watch the womens England games sometimes and don't mind if it's all women commenting but I rather prefer men talking about the mens game,not interested in what women players have to say about it.

[CoolClaret]

I know what you’re saying

You just don’t want women in men’s football, it’s clear as day
You don’t care that there are male commentators who’ve never played as various levels but are commentating on the games

It’s fine, I see what the issue is and as I’ve said it isn’t the women

Your issue is that you're actually dense Sid.

Never once said that and you just misapropriate my points and try and play gotcha like a moron.

Commentator ability is vastly different to punditry - anyone can be a commentator.

No issue with any woman in football if they give good takes and analysis.

I have issue if an ex WSL player tired to equivocate their n=1 playing experience to anything remotely similar to any PL player because it's vastly different and anyone with half a brain can figure that out.

[IanMcL]

Which clubs Clive Tyldesley, Sam Matterface, Peter Drury and Jon Champion play for.

They are commentators not pundits.

[IanMcL]

And the vote on whether Joseph is right or not.....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... ore-target

Currently 66% Joey right

[Burnley1989]

And the vote on whether Joseph is right or not.....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... ore-target

Currently 66% Joey right

You come across as those of those people in the Mirror comments section tbf

[IanMcL]

You come across as those of those people in the Mirror comments section tbf

Haven't read them, so I will just stick with the 2/3 majority on this one.

[boatshed bill]

And the vote on whether Joseph is right or not.....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... ore-target

Currently 66% Joey right

Doesn't that just tell you what 66% of Mirror readers think about it?

[claretonthecoast1882]

i think you need to do your research before commenting

Like all good fake solicitors you struggle to read as well

[claretonthecoast1882]

They are commentators not pundits.

Ahh right so these men who openly display a disliking of a womans voice is only when it is as a pundit not a commentator.

Easily solved then have the woman as the commentator and the male as a pundit, then all those who all seem to struggle will be fine. Great work.

[KRBFC]

I don’t like women commentators, I prefer some of the female presenters to the men. I don’t like some of the men commentators either.

It’s just personal preference, those suggesting it means you hate women are degenerates. I think Garth Crooks is awful, not because he’s black but because he talks crap.

Barton is also an idiot for voicing his opinion on this as an out of work manager, with the world as it is, different opinions aren’t allowed with everything being sexist, racist, homophobic etc.

[IanMcL]

Ahh right so these men who openly display a disliking of a womans voice is only when it is as a pundit not a commentator.

Easily solved then have the woman as the commentator and the male as a pundit, then all those who all seem to struggle will be fine. Great work.

If a woman commentator was up to standard, why not? Clear, well spoken voice, able to describe what is happening, including what is not in picture and invite comment from a good male pundit. No issues.

[Stayingup]

Surely the whole point is football is for everybody. If women want to get involved in the men's game so be it, the same that men are involved in the women's game. Those who turn their backs on football as it continues to open itself up for all are not missed, good riddance.

You raise an interesting point about men in the womens game. There are men for sure, but I can't recall, for example, men commentating on the recent womens world cup.

Another point in all this is that Joey is entitled to a view. Its called free speech - until he gets cancelled of course.!!!

[ChorltonCharlie]

The irony in this being discussed on here, is there's plenty of people who'll agree with what Barton is saying whilst offering constant insight and analysis on this forum of what our manager and players are doing wrong despite never having got remotely near to the level they are operating at.

Love to the family.

[daveisaclaret]

The simple truth is that with no viable future in football (due to being a bad manager and unpleasant person) Barton is dipping his toes in the water of a career as a sexist, racist idiot, which is a very lucrative industry in this country. It can be no surprise that people on this messageboard will lap it up.

[Anonymous Claret]

You raise an interesting point about men in the womens game. There are men for sure, but I can't recall, for example, men commentating on the recent womens world cup.

Another point in all this is that Joey is entitled to a view. Its called free speech - until he gets cancelled of course.!!!

I have no problem whether a man or woman is either a commentator or a pundit. It makes no difference as long as they are good at what they do. It will always be subjective to the individual on whether that person is competent. If viewing figures are affected it won't be long before the said problem, whether it is a man or woman is potted.
What I do have a problem with is people ganging up on Joey Barton because he has expressed an opinion that doesn't equate to their own.
I disagree with Joey on this issue but I believe that he has the right to express his views.

[jojomk1]

You raise an interesting point about men in the womens game. There are men for sure, but I can't recall, for example, men commentating on the recent womens world cup.

There was a women's tournament a few years back where Dion Dublin was the only male on the studio panel
His inclusion was derided by some female presenters as "he didn't understand the women's game"

[Big Vinny K]

Just been watching some of his interview.
I’m guessing he does not want a job anymore in the media.
Or maybe he’ll join Andy Gray and Richard Keys.

Like many people I think there are some really awful female pundits but some of the female presenters are decent.

I do also agree that I am not sure any of the female pundits are qualified to commentate on the men’s game in a similar way I’m not sure there are men as qualified as the women to commentate on their game.

The female on the other night for our game against Wolves is a perfect example - she was clueless and if a man was lacking the knowledge and saying the stuff she did then he would not get another gig (but we know 100% that she will).

But there is a big argument that giving women these roles does help promote inclusivity in the men’s game and if it is encouraging even more young girls and women to participate and watch football then maybe that’s more important.

In terms of Joey Barton I find it difficult to take anything he is saying seriously. He tries to portray himself as being intellectual and often talks about the degree (he never finished) but he is and always will be little more than a thick thug. In the long list of things he has done and said this one is pretty irrelevant - like him now.

[MrTopTier]

There was a women's tournament a few years back where Dion Dublin was the only male on the studio panel
His inclusion was derided by some female presenters as "he didn't understand the women's game"

Mate it’s Dion Dublin, enough said.

[MrTopTier]

Andy Hinchcliffe
Dion Dublin
Lee Hendrie
Clinton Morrison
Michael Owen
Jamie Mackie

The list could go on and on. There are too many poor pundits and none of the above have ever offered anything remotely insightful despite having played at the highest level. It’s easy to have a dig at female commentators rather than calling out the majority who are stealing a living with their banal insight.

[Stockbrokerbelt]

There was a women's tournament a few years back where Dion Dublin was the only male on the studio panel
His inclusion was derided by some female presenters as "he didn't understand the women's game"

Totally Agee with the view that females are shoe horned into roles commentating on Men’s sport wether they are knowledgeable or not, straight away anyone with these views are classed as misogynistic,I hope someone is going to explain why there is a near total void of males commenting on female football? As for double standards within the female game you only have to look at comments made by some of the well known female pundits regarding Phil Neal & Mark Sampson. As for the darling Emma Hayes not being considered for the England job you only have to look at her history with previous tweets around race & male sexual orientation.

[Swizzlestick]

There was a women's tournament a few years back where Dion Dublin was the only male on the studio panel
His inclusion was derided by some female presenters as "he didn't understand the women's game"

Which presenters?

[ClaretOfMancunia]

He's basically made himself look a bit of a knob. As others have already said, he's clearly angling for a job on GB News. His Piers Morgan-lite, red pill spiel is so transparent, anyone thinking they've some moral common-ground with him is deluded. He'll weather-vane his opinions whatever way the wind isn't blowing.

[ElectroClaret]

Michael Owen is excruciating.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Mate it’s Dion Dublin, enough said.

He even had a home under the hammers fan complaining

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news ... ter-137525

[AlargeClaret]

If someone’s doing a poor job , their sex , colour , political beliefs etc should have zero influence. Women do many great things in tv sport including presenting ,anchoring , match reports etc . That they’re over represented in men’s football is another thing entirely . However the female voice tone when commentating,co coms etc can be incredibly grating .

[spt_claret]

My views on all this are complicated.

I think for the lead commentator it's irrelevant if they're male or female, all that matters is they have a tolerable voice and robust knowledge of both teams' history, form, and players, while remaining as impartial and objective as possible. A lot of commentators fail this test with gender having no bearing.

For co-commentator/colour commentator/ex-pro opinion I tend to think you need someone who's played in that competition in that tier. In other words, men should commentate men's games, and women commentate women's, but also if you have a league 2 or nonleague game on TV you don't have a Prem player commentating on it even if he's played for one of those clubs, eg- Glen Johnson played a lot for Portsmouth but Portsmouth now are unrecognisable, I'd far rather see a player who's played at league one extensively cover their game. Vice versa too, I love David Eyres but him covering our PL games as if his experience can be equivocal would be silly.

There's some sports where the overall shape and style of the competition doesn't change much between gender divisions but football does have differences. For example the women's game allows for more physicality in challenges but has less pace, strength or target players in general so those attributes are arguably more important and noticeable when present. I really enjoy watching the England women's team but find Rio Ferdinand offering his input on them as jarring as Alex Scott giving her thoughts on what the men's team need to do based on her playing experience- she's 100% allowed an opinion, after all we have plenty and aren't ex pros, but theres only so far Rio can compare his experience or Alex hers on the pitch. Thoughts on tactics, analysing a player, or pre-match ritual or prep sure anyone can input on that (the latter you can relate from other sports even) but I don't like when player commentators criticise a player's technique or decision with a "here's what I'd have done". You can say they made the wrong decision or messed up but don't try insert yourself, if I spot from the stands that Berge missed a pass opportunity I can say but I'm not going to act like I'd have spotted and made it cos I played CM for a year at university. Having a pundit or colour commentator without that directly equivocal experience doesn't feel too different to just hearing a bloke down the pub so I stop being interested.

And this is before even getting into how it's only the same circle of ex pros who ever get the headset. I'm not sure if they're just deemed the most eloquent/media friendly or what but God it'd be nice to get some variety.

[aggi]

...
What I do have a problem with is people ganging up on Joey Barton because he has expressed an opinion that doesn't equate to their own.
I disagree with Joey on this issue but I believe that he has the right to express his views.

He does have the right to express his views, and he's done that. People also have the right to say that they believe his opinions are stupid. The right to air your view isn't the right to not be criticised for it.

...
The female on the other night for our game against Wolves is a perfect example - she was clueless and if a man was lacking the knowledge and saying the stuff she did then he would not get another gig (but we know 100% that she will).
...

I don't think this is the case. There are loads of rubbish male pundits out there who still have a job, Garth Crooks being the most obvious example, or Tim Sherwood. This board is full of complaints about pundits who clearly have little idea about Burnley.


It's weird how the lack of specific playing experience only gets flagged when talking about women. Never gets mentioned when male journalists, etc are talking about football.

[Big Vinny K]

He does have the right to express his views, and he's done that. People also have the right to say that they believe his opinions are stupid. The right to air your view isn't the right to not be criticised for it.



I don't think this is the case. There are loads of rubbish male pundits out there who still have a job, Garth Crooks being the most obvious example, or Tim Sherwood. This board is full of complaints about pundits who clearly have little idea about Burnley.


It's weird how the lack of specific playing experience only gets flagged when talking about women. Never gets mentioned when male journalists, etc are talking about football.

Yep you are right on that point - there are definitely a lot of poor male pundits who continue to be in work and I have no clue why. I know a close friend who worked for the Press Association 20 years ago and he was once telling me how difficult it was to get a job working as a sports reporter for one of the national papers (he specialised in horse racing and football). I remember him saying it was a case of “dead man’s shoes” waiting for a job to come up and it’s began to feel a bit like that with many of the male football pundits we see on sky etc.

In terms of the male co commentators for the live games I’m generally ok with most of them. Alan Smith, Don Goodman, Andy Hinchcliffe, Andy Townsend.….Alan Shearer was decent enough last night. For me it is a bit of a job where you develop your skills over a few years and you rarely get anyone who goes straight into the role and is as good as the ones been doing it for a while. One of the big skills for me is to not say too much - don’t just say stuff for the sake of it….like Dion Dublin feels a need to !! And also do your research on the game you are covering - just like the main commentator has to.

The studio pundits are a completely different matter - there is a hell of a lot of dross male and female. More dross than good.