Tonights Football

[kentonclaret]

and how do you suspect he is gaining from player trades ? How is it clear we prioritized players for financial gain rather than for improving the squad ? Have we not improved the squad ?
Also, us signing players and hopefully selling them for a profit is the only way forward for clubs like us

Getting promoted from the Championship every other season following relegation from the PL hardly offers a platform for any promising young players to showcase their talent and progress with the club. Any young players that do show promise will be off to pastures new in the summer.

[bumba]

Way to go in totally misunderstanding the post.

We’re down because we’ve been ****. The Luton game was the confirmation match, that’s all I meant.

In fairness it was confirmed in 2023 that we'd be relegated this season

[Rileybobs]

and how do you suspect he is gaining from player trades ? How is it clear we prioritized players for financial gain rather than for improving the squad ? Have we not improved the squad ?
Also, us signing players and hopefully selling them for a profit is the only way forward for clubs like us

Well, I’m quite uneasy that our manager is a director of the company which provides the club with analytics consultancy services, which I’m led to believe is the primary resource we use to identify potential signings. Do you not see a potential conflict of interest there?

It’s quite obvious from the profile of players, and the unbalanced nature of the recruitment, including the absence of signings in key positions, that we prioritised signing players for future value ahead of competing in the division this season. If you’re fine with that then fair enough, quite a few people seem to be. I would rather see a team able to compete at this level.

As for this being the only way forward, that’s not true. Of course we need to sign young players with potential, but we don’t need to only sign players who tick this box, and we certainly don’t need to do it at the expense of Premier League survival. In fact, it’s completely counter productive to do so.

[ClaretTony]

Is Twine injured or just left out?

No Mellon for Dundee either

[jedi_master]

In fairness it was confirmed in 2023 that we'd be relegated this season

I would tend to agree yes. The Luton draw was the final embers burning on a bedraggled wick going out though.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Never understood the inclination of a few to run their own team down.

One of the worst ever is a gross exaggeration and insult to our club as a whole. We will probably drop, but our “correct” points tally but for official’s errors would rank as “not quite good enough yet”, rather than being one of the worst ever. Also worth remembering it is also Luton and Forest who have been gifted am extra point which further distorts the effect of it.

We are currently on to achieve the 6th lowest point tally in premier league history with around 20 points.

We will go down as one of the worst in prem history

[CoolClaret]

Luton & Rob Edwards put any words of a 'project' or other nonsense straight to bed.

Huge indictment.

[ksrclaret]

Luton & Rob Edwards put any words of a 'project' or other nonsense straight to bed.

Huge indictment.

Absolutely. Every club in the land has the same project, ultimately, and that's to win enough games of football.

[Swizzlestick]

Just to interrupt the p1ssing contest of who can run down the team more when we haven’t even played yet, I was surprised to see Everton have fallen into the bottom three.

[Darthlaw]

It’s quite obvious from the profile of players, and the unbalanced nature of the recruitment, including the absence of signings in key positions, that we prioritised signing players for future value ahead of competing in the division this season. If you’re fine with that then fair enough, quite a few people seem to be. I would rather see a team able to compete at this level.

Genuine question. Do you honestly believe at any point a player was signed (in lieu of a better quality, PL ready alternative) purely on the basis of their future value?

It's one thing to sign players you think will be good enough and it turns out they're not, but insinuating it was done intentionally is something else.

[Goliath]

Boring mate -
Our season does not depend on a bang average striker for Forest
Our season depends on what we do

Hes got 15 goals in 38 Prem appearances for Forest, far from bang average. Unfortunately, our season doesnt just depend on what we do anymore does it, use your brain, we have to rely on teams giving us a chance.

[Westleigh]

Well, I’m quite uneasy that our manager is a director of the company which provides the club with analytics consultancy services, which I’m led to believe is the primary resource we use to identify potential signings. Do you not see a potential conflict of interest there?

It’s quite obvious from the profile of players, and the unbalanced nature of the recruitment, including the absence of signings in key positions, that we prioritised signing players for future value ahead of competing in the division this season. If you’re fine with that then fair enough, quite a few people seem to be. I would rather see a team able to compete at this level.

As for this being the only way forward, that’s not true. Of course we need to sign young players with potential, but we don’t need to only sign players who tick this box, and we certainly don’t need to do it at the expense of Premier League survival. In fact, it’s completely counter productive to do so.

We’re in it because we’re fans,Kompany and Pace are in it for money and to boost their egos or why would they present us with a lobsided ,weak willed set of show ponies,and don’t anyone mention the word project.

[Vegas Claret]

Well, I’m quite uneasy that our manager is a director of the company which provides the club with analytics consultancy services, which I’m led to believe is the primary resource we use to identify potential signings. Do you not see a potential conflict of interest there?

If that's the case I would say that heightens the pressure on VK to get it right, so the polar opposite of a conflict of interest

It’s quite obvious from the profile of players, and the unbalanced nature of the recruitment, including the absence of signings in key positions, that we prioritised signing players for future value ahead of competing in the division this season. If you’re fine with that then fair enough, quite a few people seem to be. I would rather see a team able to compete at this level.

Jury is completely out for me on this Riley, I get where you are coming from 100% though. It's a bit of a risk to pretty much neglect this season for sure but the flip side is what you see with Foster, we got him when he was affordable. I don't see that changing anytime soon. We absolutely neglected a few positions, and for me it was too many changes too soon that has been the biggest mistake

As for this being the only way forward, that’s not true. Of course we need to sign young players with potential, but we don’t need to only sign players who tick this box, and we certainly don’t need to do it at the expense of Premier League survival. In fact, it’s completely counter productive to do so.

Well, we signed Redmond who spent pretty much his entire career in the top flight.

I made a post in July before a ball was kicked that our window was a disaster and that we were replicating Southampton's mistakes of too many youngsters. I do however think this squad is stronger than last seasons and I understand why we didn't spend 25 million on Tella nor 20 + on THB (which is the fee Saints have agreed on)

[Rileybobs]

Genuine question. Do you honestly believe at any point a player was signed (in lieu of a better quality, PL ready alternative) purely on the basis of their future value?

Yes.

[Darthlaw]

Yes.

Fair enough. Thats quite the conspiracy.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Fair enough. Thats quite the conspiracy.

How can anyone not see it?

We literally signed a raft of wingers, you don’t stock pile positions like we did for anything other than hoping a few make it and we can sell them on.

[Goliath]

Well, I’m quite uneasy that our manager is a director of the company which provides the club with analytics consultancy services, which I’m led to believe is the primary resource we use to identify potential signings. Do you not see a potential conflict of interest there?

It’s quite obvious from the profile of players, and the unbalanced nature of the recruitment, including the absence of signings in key positions, that we prioritised signing players for future value ahead of competing in the division this season. If you’re fine with that then fair enough, quite a few people seem to be. I would rather see a team able to compete at this level.

As for this being the only way forward, that’s not true. Of course we need to sign young players with potential, but we don’t need to only sign players who tick this box, and we certainly don’t need to do it at the expense of Premier League survival. In fact, it’s completely counter productive to do so.

This is a fair concern and probably another example if poor communication from the club, they could probably appease the fans a bit if they didnt try to keep things under wraps.

However, i dont think Kompany would be involved in anything underhand and he did try to sign Milner in the summer along with Berge which would have given us plenty of experience. I think his point that we cant afford experienced Prem players wages is probably accurate.

[bfcjg]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/18982734 ... -nonsense/
Hmmmmmm.

[Newcastleclaret93]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/18982734 ... -nonsense/
Hmmmmmm.

Looks like they figured him out quicker than our lot are

[Darthlaw]

How can anyone not see it?

We literally signed a raft of wingers, you don’t stock pile positions like we did for anything other than hoping a few make it and we can sell them on.

I can't see that all of them were signed, with better alternatives readily available, purely on the basis of potential sales value in future. Which is what I clarified.

Then again my imagination isnt as vivid as some.

[Rileybobs]

I made a post in July before a ball was kicked that our window was a disaster and that we were replicating Southampton's mistakes of too many youngsters. I do however think this squad is stronger than last seasons and I understand why we didn't spend 25 million on Tella nor 20 + on THB (which is the fee Saints have agreed on)

I wouldn’t say it’s the opposite of a conflict of interest. If Kompany stands to gain (and I’m only speculating that he does) from resale values of players which his company identifies then he may be biased into making decisions that don’t necessarily put the club’s league position first. Again, I must stress I’m not accusing VK of any lack of integrity, he seems like an absolutely stand up bloke, but the conflict of interest quite clearly exists.

Your Redmond point just backs up mine though, because he’s behind some players who look way off the required level despite having an entire career at this level. Why would that be?

[Rileybobs]

Fair enough. Thats quite the conspiracy.

Hardly a conspiracy. Look at the evidence.

[Darthlaw]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/18982734 ... -nonsense/
Hmmmmmm.

'"True football experts recognise talent with the naked eye. They don't rely on numbers in a computer to scout players.''

If that doesn't scream we're taking the moneyball approach, nothing will.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ever get the feeling your reading the same thread over and over and over again.....

[Goliath]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/18982734 ... -nonsense/
Hmmmmmm.

Do you always choose to accept Johan Boskamps views as fact or is it just convenient when trying to back up your own view. Personally i think his recuitment of olayers has been very good, we just lack experience at this level.
Have people forgotten that he built a new team in 1 summer which went on to win the league by a mile losing just 3 games.

The team this season has shown gradual improvement and theres only 1 player that now looks completely out of his depth(vitinho) for me. Question marks around a few others but not in terms of technical ability.

[Commy]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/18982734 ... -nonsense/
Hmmmmmm.

They were in a mess when he took over and he got them near the top of the league with young players.

[Rileybobs]

'"True football experts recognise talent with the naked eye. They don't rely on numbers in a computer to scout players.''

If that doesn't scream we're taking the moneyball approach, nothing will.

How is our approach similar to the Moneyball one?

[Darthlaw]

Hardly a conspiracy. Look at the evidence.

You present the 'evidence' oven ready PL players were available and rejected for potential sales value and I'll sign up.

I'll counter your conspiracy with the fact we even wanted Townsend, till he turned us down, rather than the other way around.

[Darthlaw]

How is our approach similar to the Moneyball one?

If you understand moneyball, you'll understand the previous coaches comments and how the same criticism was levelled at Billy Beane's Oakland A's

[Westleigh]

But for that reffing atrocity we’d have done the double over them. Ditto beaten Forest away. Did beat Sheffield at home. Should have beaten Palace at home. It’s really only Everton at home from our rivals that we have struggled against.

The problem is twofold.

One, reffing decisions, that by my reckoning has cost us 8 points. Two, when a side does the total epitome of “not turning up”, like BHA tonight, it has not happened against us. Heck, even Onana had a stormer against is for Man Utd.

So yes, we are odds on to drop, and yes, we have been naive or poor at times, but I don’t see us as worse than Forest, Luton or Sheffield.

Can’t believe you lot who keep going on about “What if” go on google and put in Premier League table without VAR ,we’d still be next to bottom ,are you so naive to think that only Burnley have had some bad decisions,take off your tinted specks we are rubbish the table doesn’t lie,

[bfcjg]

Do you always choose to accept Johan Boskamps views as fact or is it just convenient when trying to back up your own view. Personally i think his recuitment of olayers has been very good, we just lack experience at this level.
Have people forgotten that he built a new team in 1 summer which went on to win the league by a mile losing just 3 games.

The team this season has shown gradual improvement and theres only 1 player that now looks completely out of his depth(vitinho) for me. Question marks around a few others but not in terms of technical ability.

I'm not assuming anything, just posting a story from another manager with another point of view. FWIT I think Kompany has enough of credit in the bank for another season, however I think some of our transfers have left the squad very unbalanced and physically weak.

[Rileybobs]

You present the 'evidence' oven ready PL players were available and rejected for potential sales value and I'll sign up.

I'll counter your conspiracy with the fact we even wanted Townsend, till he turned us down, rather than the other way around.

Interesting that you raise Townsend. Isn’t that evidence of an oven ready PL player who was available and we rejected for an unproven player with a higher potential resale value?

[JarrowClaret]

We are currently on to achieve the 6th lowest point tally in premier league history with around 20 points.

We will go down as one of the worst in prem history

We were on target to achieve under Derbys total according to some on here not long ago at least it shows we ARE improving a little bit!

[Darthlaw]

Interesting that you raise Townsend. Isn’t that evidence of an oven ready PL player who was available and we rejected for an unproven player with a higher potential resale value?

Which bit of 'he turned us down' are you struggling with, because that certainly doesnt suggest we rejected him.

At least read my post if you're going to quote it.

[Goliath]

I'm not assuming anything, just posting a story from another manager with another point of view. FWIT I think Kompany has enough of credit in the bank for another season, however I think some of our transfers have left the squad very unbalanced and physically weak.

Yep your latter points i agree with, theres a clear lack of balance. But the actual quality of player hes brought in i dont think is too bad. And once hes able to shift the players he wants to over the next few windows then i expect the balance issue will be rectified. Unfortunately its probably not going to be this season though

[Rileybobs]

If you understand moneyball, you'll understand the previous coaches comments and how the same criticism was levelled at Billy Beane's Oakland A's

I wouldn’t say I understand Moneyball per se, other than having watched the film a few times. But I seem to recall their manager, Brad Pitt, signed players who had unfashionable technique, or personal issues, and as a result were overlooked by higher spending competitors. But these same players’ statistics showed that if they were assembled in a team together they would get the required amount of runs, or tries or wickets or whatever they’re called in baseball to win matches and outperform their rivals whilst spending less money.

So, like I say, in what way is our approach similar to the Moneyball one?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Which bit of 'he turned us down' are you struggling with, because that certainly doesnt suggest we rejected him.

At least read my post if you're going to quote it.

Townsend has gone public saying that we pulled a contract from him.

[Vegas Claret]

How can anyone not see it?

We literally signed a raft of wingers, you don’t stock pile positions like we did for anything other than hoping a few make it and we can sell them on.

but why would we not try to make a profit on a player ?

[ksrclaret]

Which bit of 'he turned us down' are you struggling with, because that certainly doesnt suggest we rejected him.

At least read my post if you're going to quote it.

I think we're all struggling with that, because it's not true.

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/sport/fo ... sh-4475280

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwG4WNxm9oE

[Swizzlestick]

Which bit of 'he turned us down' are you struggling with, because that certainly doesnt suggest we rejected him.

At least read my post if you're going to quote it.

We withdrew the contract, not him. He was on Talksport not long after talking about how devastated he was.

[Rileybobs]

Which bit of 'he turned us down' are you struggling with, because that certainly doesnt suggest we rejected him.

At least read my post if you're going to quote it.

Can you provide evidence of him turning us down? I have heard interviews from him and his father saying exactly the opposite.

[Goliath]

Interesting that you raise Townsend. Isn’t that evidence of an oven ready PL player who was available and we rejected for an unproven player with a higher potential resale value?

Not really. If youre talking about Tresor i would think that VK just thought he was a better player. Anyone whod watched him play thought wed made a fantastic signing there so he wasnt the only one. We already had JBG and Benson as left footed players that can come in on their left foot from the right so it would probably have been overkill to have another one

[Rileybobs]

Not really. If youre talking about Tresor i would think that VK just thought he was a better player. Anyone whod watched him play thought wed made a fantastic signing there so he wasnt the only one. We already had JBG and Benson as left footed players that can come in on their left foot from the right so it would probably have been overkill to have another one

I think it was Odobert we signed just as we ‘released’ Townsend.

[ClaretTony]

I'll counter your conspiracy with the fact we even wanted Townsend, till he turned us down, rather than the other way around.

He didn't turn us down - we made him an offer and then withdrew it because we had younger options. Whether we should or shouldn't have signed him is one argument but he definitely 100% did not turn us down.

[Vegas Claret]

Interesting that you raise Townsend. Isn’t that evidence of an oven ready PL player who was available and we rejected for an unproven player with a higher potential resale value?

You know Townsend came to us on trial to prove his fitness because he's missed something like 19 months of football because of a bad knee injury. Maybe they went for potential of Tresor over a risk with Townsend breaking down ? The irony of which is Redmond (experienced player) now being out for the season with a knee injury. FWIW I would have signed Townsend long before Tresor for reasons I've already stated

[Darthlaw]

I wouldn’t say I understand Moneyball per se, other than having watched the film a few times. But I seem to recall their manager, Brad Pitt, signed players who had unfashionable technique, or personal issues, and as a result were overlooked by higher spending competitors. But these same players’ statistics showed that if they were assembled in a team together they would get the required amount of runs, or tries or wickets or whatever they’re called in baseball to win matches and outperform their rivals whilst spending less money.

So, like I say, in what way is our approach similar to the Moneyball one?

It's the same approach because the scouting will be based on statistics, rather than reputation or an 'I like the look of him' from a scout. Do an 'I like the look of him and spend £70m on Anthony at Man U. Do the stats and get a Koleosho or Odobert for us.

The Anderlecht quote suggests that recruitment is heavily swayed by statistics i.e. Moneyball.

[GetIntoEm]

I wouldn’t say I understand Moneyball per se, other than having watched the film a few times. But I seem to recall their manager, Brad Pitt, signed players who had unfashionable technique, or personal issues, and as a result were overlooked by higher spending competitors. But these same players’ statistics showed that if they were assembled in a team together they would get the required amount of runs, or tries or wickets or whatever they’re called in baseball to win matches and outperform their rivals whilst spending less money.

So, like I say, in what way is our approach similar to the Moneyball one?

You've summed up moneyball quite well there, it's not about flipping players for profit. People hear a buzzword and make it suit a narrative

[Stayingup]

Wow. Luton win has really put the cat among the pigeons tonight on here. Luton a functional team playing to their strengths as we did for years until recently. We have some very gifted players but as a team to compete or survive in this league we haven't got enough of the right players.

[Rileybobs]

You know Townsend came to us on trial to prove his fitness because he's missed something like 19 months of football because of a bad knee injury. Maybe they went for potential of Tresor over a risk with Townsend breaking down ? The irony of which is Redmond (experienced player) now being out for the season with a knee injury. FWIW I would have signed Townsend long before Tresor for reasons I've already stated

I’m not saying we should or shouldn’t have signed Townsend. But Darthlaw asked me to ‘present the 'evidence' oven ready PL players were available and rejected for potential sales value’, so I did.

[Goliath]

I think it was Odobert we signed just as we ‘released’ Townsend.

I still think he knew Tresor was his main target and possibly had a breakthrpugh on that deal so decided we didnt need Tresor. Odobert was just a youngster, i doubt he was expected to play as much as he has, hes one of the few thats played above all expectations.