Well done Jeremy Hunt with NHS pay.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:46 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43476340" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NHS workers set to get pay rises finally.

Well done to Hunt and the Unions for agreeing on a deal.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:52 am

This is good news, particularly if targeted at the lowest paid, cleaners, porters, junior nurses etc.
It's a chance to improve morale from the bottom up, and much smarter than simply increasing spending budgets.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:56 am

Sidney1st wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43476340

NHS workers set to get pay rises finally.

Well done to Hunt and the Unions for agreeing on a deal.

Let's see how it pans out shall we?
2% a year for 3 years is below the current rate of inflation, and given that it has been said that 6% is the average, and some will be getting as much as 30%, then clearly there must be many who are going to get a lot less than that 6%
This offer is - of course - in response to the recruitment crisis. Whether it will be sufficient to solve this remains to be seen, especially if applications from the EU continue to fall and we don't invest far more in training.
It's a very cautious welcome from me.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:57 am

Great work from the unions.

upanatem · Post by **upanatem** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:02 am

This is good news for those set to receive the increase. This, coupled with the tax threshold being increased, should make a difference.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:03 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Let's see how it pans out shall we?
2% a year for 3 years is below the current rate of inflation, and given that it has been said that 6% is the average, and some will be getting as much as 30%, then clearly there must be many who are going to get a lot less than that 6%
This offer is - of course - in response to the recruitment crisis. Whether it will be sufficient to solve this remains to be seen, especially if applications from the EU continue to fall and we don't invest far more in training.
It's a very cautious welcome from me.

As per the article the lowest paid will get the biggest pay rises.

They've also agreed to tackle staff sickness levels, which I vaguely recall being mentioned on here as an issue.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:03 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Great work from the unions.

Yes it is, to finally agree on something, until later in the year when they change their mind.

Danieljwaterhouse · Post by **Danieljwaterhouse** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:06 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Let's see how it pans out shall we?
2% a year for 3 years is below the current rate of inflation, and given that it has been said that 6% is the average, and some will be getting as much as 30%, then clearly there must be many who are going to get a lot less than that 6%
This offer is - of course - in response to the recruitment crisis. Whether it will be sufficient to solve this remains to be seen, especially if applications from the EU continue to fall and we don't invest far more in training.
It's a very cautious welcome from me.

It’s an amazing achievement for all those involved. Pouring scepticism is why we always end up in a culture of more more more.

What about those who work without a pay rise? Those who’ve born the brunt whilst working roles that haven’t seen a pay rise in 5 plus years? Those who are constantly being put together next preasure to reduce their wages because their service can’t factor a uplift in fees and costs to the market?

Every victory should be applauded from both the union and government side.

Danieljwaterhouse · Post by **Danieljwaterhouse** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:08 am

People create their own inflation through wanting a new phone, car, Sky, BT, WiFi at 100mbps, we are consuming more and more and then moaning we can’t afford.

For the vast majority of families they create their own poverty line.

KeighleyClaret · Post by **KeighleyClaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:12 am

Danieljwaterhouse wrote:People create their own inflation through wanting a new phone, car, Sky, BT, WiFi at 100mbps, we are consuming more and more and then moaning we can’t afford.

For the vast majority of families they create their own poverty line.

Clearly someone who has never worked in the NHS, or experienced the care of the best, most motivated, most caring and scandalously underpaid staff in the Country.

Many NHS workers rely on food banks. 2% after many years of stasis is a bit of a joke, the bare minimum this lot could get away with.

SammyBoy · Post by **SammyBoy** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:13 am

An example that you don't necessarily need power to affect change. Labour gaining 30 seats and eroding the Conservative majority has put things like the NHS pay cap, tuition fees and social housing firmly back on the Tories agenda and is forcing them to take at least some steps towards addressing these issues.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:15 am

KeighleyClaret wrote:Clearly someone who has never worked in the NHS, or experienced the care of the best, most motivated, most caring and scandalously underpaid staff in the Country.

Many NHS workers rely on food banks. 2% after many years of stasis is a bit of a joke, the bare minimum this lot could get away with.

In fairness I don't think the comment was aimed solely at NHS workers, it's a fair comment about people across the UK who want to keep up with the Jones' but can't afford it in reality.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:17 am

Danieljwaterhouse wrote:It’s an amazing achievement for all those involved. Pouring scepticism is why we always end up in a culture of more more more.

What about those who work without a pay rise? Those who’ve born the brunt whilst working roles that haven’t seen a pay rise in 5 plus years? Those who are constantly being put together next preasure to reduce their wages because their service can’t factor a uplift in fees and costs to the market?

Every victory should be applauded from both the union and government side.

I think that you misunderstood the main point of my post, which is that only time will tell whether this will resolve the recruitment crisis. (I made it pretty clear - or so I thought.
It's great that the lowest paid are getting the most, but will this address the serious issues of recruitment and retention of (e.g.) Junior Doctors, GPS and those in the middle tiers of the wage spectrum.
I doubt that most of those working for the NHS have a culture of

"more, more, more"

. If they did then they wouldn't be in that job.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:23 am

Why wouldn't they?

Plenty of low paid workers over stretch themselves financially outside the NHS, are you saying NHS workers are immune from this?

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:25 am

They still need to get these nurses contracts renegotiated.

They need to turn the 36 hours into 48 and stop employed nurses working agency shifts which is literally costing billions.

It's time for the nurses to act in good faith now.

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:31 am

Sidney1st wrote:Why wouldn't they?

Plenty of low paid workers over stretch themselves financially outside the NHS, are you saying NHS workers are immune from this?

I do think Sidney's right on this.

Public sector workers are no less susceptible to 'keeping up with the Jones'' than anyone else, in my experience. And quite often, more so, particularly those in higher paid jobs.

Having worked with both, there is a gigantic culture difference. But personal spending habits are pretty much comparable regardless of job, more dictated by income and personal priorities.

Tackling low pay is paramount and I applaud this.

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:32 am

In my view higher pay rises should always be targeted at the lower paid. A loaf of bread costs the same whether you earn £15k or £150k. If a certain pot of money is available to finance pay rises then the lion's share should always go to those whose pay is the lowest. In the late 70s early 80s I was convenor at a local company and that was always my approach. At that time there were 7 grades of employee from skilled men to labourers. We reduced that to 3 grades and increased the pay of all those in the lower grades simply by regrading them. The best thing I was ever involved in.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:44 am

starting_11 wrote:They still need to get these nurses contracts renegotiated.

They need to turn the 36 hours into 48 and stop employed nurses working agency shifts which is literally costing billions.

It's time for the nurses to act in good faith now.

If they worked 48 hours per week on the salary they get they would be on practically minimum wage.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:49 am

ClaretAndJew wrote:If they worked 48 hours per week on the salary they get they would be on practically minimum wage.

That's why they need renegotiating, to improve the pay levels to a better standard.
If it's true that nurses are also doing agency work then it needs to be stopped.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:56 am

Absolutely. Newly qualified nurses earn nothing comparison to what they're training makes them worth.

Some band 3 HCA's can earn similar to a fully qualified nurse if the night shifts/unsocial hours align right during the month. I've seen it myself.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:59 am

So this year, NHS staff will receive a real terms pay increase of 0.3%.
Next year they will take a real terms pay cut.
They will also take a real terms pay cut the year after.

This is on the back of 8 years of real terms pay cuts for NHS staff.

So in 10 years out of 11, NHS staff will have taken a real terms pay cut.
1 year out of 11 they will have received a real terms pay increase of 0.3%.

This government despises the public sector, and doesn't even try to hide it.

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:05 pm

upanatem wrote:This is good news for those set to receive the increase. This, coupled with the tax threshold being increased, should make a difference.

To be fair, the tax allowance being increased from £11,500 to £11,850 makes a gain of £5.83 a month for a basic tax payer. That won’t make much of a difference to anybody.

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:41 pm

So now what about all the other Public Sector Employees?

upanatem · Post by **upanatem** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:07 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:So this year, NHS staff will receive a real terms pay increase of 0.3%.
Next year they will take a real terms pay cut.
They will also take a real terms pay cut the year after.

This is on the back of 8 years of real terms pay cuts for NHS staff.

So in 10 years out of 11, NHS staff will have taken a real terms pay cut.
1 year out of 11 they will have received a real terms pay increase of 0.3%.

This government despises the public sector, and doesn't even try to hide it.

John, the picture is nowhere near as bad as you are painting. What about the raising of the tax threshold, which gives everyone an increase in pay?

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:32 pm

upanatem wrote:John, the picture is nowhere near as bad as you are painting. What about the raising of the tax threshold, which gives everyone an increase in pay?

As I stated above, £5.83 a month! Hardly worth shouting from the rooftops!!

The picture that he painted is an accurate one.

UpTheClaretsFCBK · Post by **UpTheClaretsFCBK** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:50 pm

Sidney1st wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43476340

NHS workers set to get pay rises finally.

Well done to Hunt and the Unions for agreeing on a deal.

I don’t think Jeremy Hunt deserves a well done.

He’s part of the reason they didn’t get them in the first place. He wouldn’t give them now if it wasn’t for the Unions pushing for it.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:15 pm

Still one or two failing to grasp my underlying point that the main issue isn't greedy nurses or clinicians, it's whether the pay increase, (and whatever else goes with it), is sufficient to retain the people they've got and to encourage recruitment and training.
Why work for the NHS if you can earn more in better conditions working in another job?
Why come to the UK to work in the NHS if you can get better pay and conditions elsewhere?
Why train to be a nurse if the incentives aren't there?
The current recruitment, retention and training for the NHS is broken, and whilst giving a modest pay rise to staff is welcome, to me - at least, it's rather like applying a a sticking plaster to something that needs fixing properly.

TractorFace · Post by **TractorFace** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:48 pm

Danieljwaterhouse wrote:People create their own inflation through wanting a new phone, car, Sky, BT, WiFi at 100mbps, we are consuming more and more and then moaning we can’t afford.

Food and gas/electricity have been the largest inflationary pressures in recent years. How dare people create their own inflation through wanting food and a bit of warmth in the colder months.

Danieljwaterhouse · Post by **Danieljwaterhouse** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:49 pm

TractorFace wrote:Food and gas/electricity inflation have been the largest inflationary pressures in recent years. How dare people create their own inflation through wanting food and a bit of warmth in the colder months.

Have I mentioned food or warmth? Lazy arguement.

TractorFace · Post by **TractorFace** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:56 pm

Danieljwaterhouse wrote:Have I mentioned food or warmth? .

No you didn't and this was my point.

Danieljwaterhouse · Post by **Danieljwaterhouse** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:25 pm

My arguement is based around that there will be a genuine % of the population that rightly will need support with warmth and food and that % will rightly be supported via our benefit system.

For the vast % who claim to be poverty stricken I’d argue that if there was a roots and all evaluation of their lives you could easily see that savings could be made easily through cutting back on luxuries. Luxuries that we as a population seem to see as our right to enjoy without the means to do so.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:26 pm

Nope... cant do it. Just cant congratulate the person responsible for destroying the NHS over the past few years.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:32 pm

Nurses aren't allowed luxuries now apparently

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:34 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:Nope... cant do it. Just cant congratulate the person responsible for destroying the NHS over the past few years.

The NHS senior management haven't helped themselves though over the years through shoddy running of the NHS, inc over spending etc.

Hunt deserves some blame, but not all of it.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:35 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Nurses aren't allowed luxuries now apparently

You can narrow it down to nurses to suit your point of view or look at society as a whole which is probably a better idea.

bedfords · Post by **bedfords** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:41 pm

This lad is a massive ******* idiot /|\

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:43 pm

Cheers bedfords...

I think

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:43 pm

Just want to address the utter tosh being spouted about agency nursing.

Nurses do not get paid massive wages for working agency. They used to, they don’t now. If I work an agency shift i get less than doing overtime. Most nhs nurses just do overtime instead now.

Those nurses that only work agency don’t do so for the money, they do so for the flexible working. Gone are the days of nurses earning decent money doing agency shifts.

A few years ago I used to earn decent money as an ICU agency nurse. I earned more than a ward nurse because my knowledge was specialised. The government refused to pay nurses enough so trusts had to rely on agency. There are not enough nurses so nurses could demand decent wages on agency. It’s supply and demand. They have now capped what agency nurses can earn. Broken capitalism

Foshiznik · Post by **Foshiznik** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:43 pm

I don't think you understand how inflation works. It needs to be sustainable and in a perfect situation, low and steady. How are public sector workers any 'worse' at increasing inflation over anyone else?

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:48 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:Nope... cant do it. Just cant congratulate the person responsible for destroying the NHS over the past few years.

It’s akin to thanking a man who’s set fire to your house and left you a watering can isn’t it.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:56 pm

Although I welcome any increase to my wage as a positive, I do think there are issues with this.

For example an NHS domestic (cleaner and hands meals out) is a band 1. They are set to have the highest increase and will earn 19k a year after the rise. 19k a year for a cleaner with paid leave and a pension. There aren’t many cleaning job in the private sector that offer that.

A band 6 which is a junior sister who work on wards will probably only receive a marginal pay rise. Even less if they are already at the top of their band. A highly experienced and qualified nurse who can earn very good money anywhere else in the developed world will likely receive a tiny pay rise while a domestic with zero qualifications will recieve a 30 percent pay rise.

Doesn’t add up to me

1Simpleton · Post by **1Simpleton** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:12 pm

Just to weigh in on this, a below inflation pay rise is hardly a way to thank nurses for their hard work after not receiving one for years. In my view this is further devaluing their job. A classic case of divide and conquer although I do commend the pay rise to the lowest bands as they are valued team members who often go unnoticed.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:21 pm

Well done to them, happily pay more tax to fund the NHS and its brilliant staff.

Only the best for the working class! I hope they all go and buy a frivolous luxury, and why the hell not.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:22 pm

Inchy wrote:Although I welcome any increase to my wage as a positive, I do think there are issues with this.

For example an NHS domestic (cleaner and hands meals out) is a band 1. They are set to have the highest increase and will earn 19k a year after the rise. 19k a year for a cleaner with paid leave and a pension. There aren’t many cleaning job in the private sector that offer that.

A band 6 which is a junior sister who work on wards will probably only receive a marginal pay rise. Even less if they are already at the top of their band. A highly experienced and qualified nurse who can earn very good money anywhere else in the developed world will likely receive a tiny pay rise while a domestic with zero qualifications will recieve a 30 percent pay rise.

Doesn’t add up to me

Inchy, am I right with what I said about Band 3 HCA's sometimes being able to earn almost on par with a Band 5 if their night hours etc align?

This is what I was told when I worked for the NHS, which surprised me. I know that Band 5 starting pay isn't fantastic for the work that a nurse does, but was surprised it could be matched by an HCA 2 bands lower.

Do you think there's an incentive for people to become a nurse in this day and age? Plenty of people I've spoken to love their job but "would not do it now" if they had their time again.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:26 pm

Inchy wrote:Although I welcome any increase to my wage as a positive, I do think there are issues with this.

For example an NHS domestic (cleaner and hands meals out) is a band 1. They are set to have the highest increase and will earn 19k a year after the rise. 19k a year for a cleaner with paid leave and a pension. There aren’t many cleaning job in the private sector that offer that.

A band 6 which is a junior sister who work on wards will probably only receive a marginal pay rise. Even less if they are already at the top of their band. A highly experienced and qualified nurse who can earn very good money anywhere else in the developed world will likely receive a tiny pay rise while a domestic with zero qualifications will recieve a 30 percent pay rise.

Doesn’t add up to me

just short of 20k a year for a cleaner is very very high, however, if it means that the roles get filled by the best, most motivated and effective cleaners in the country then I am ok with it. I mean, you need that high standard in a hospital, cleaning is of paramount importance in one. There should be very high expectations made of staff though on that sort of wage for a non-skilled job.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:34 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:Inchy, am I right with what I said about Band 3 HCA's sometimes being able to earn almost on par with a Band 5 if their night hours etc align?

This is what I was told when I worked for the NHS, which surprised me. I know that Band 5 starting pay isn't fantastic for the work that a nurse does, but was surprised it could be matched by an HCA 2 bands lower.

Do you think there's an incentive for people to become a nurse in this day and age? Plenty of people I've spoken to love their job but "would not do it now" if they had their time again.

When I was a newly qualified band 5 there were some band 2 that would earn more than me a month however they would have to do a lot of nights/ weekends to match what a band 5 earns. I never had a problem with it because there needs to be an incentive for working unsociable hours.

As far as incentives go to get people into nursing, the worst thing this government did was remove the bursary and put nurses in nearly 30k worth of debt at the end of qualifying. You don’t think about how much you will earn when you go into nursing but you do think about how much debt it will put you in. Many nurses go into the career later in life. I believe these people who may already have kids and other financial responsibilities will be put off by the massive debt newly qualified nurses now had.

Interesting I have a student nurse at the moment and the university now give them a fob watch. I never got one when I went to the same uni. Maybe that’s why it’s 9k a year, because of a watch

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:49 pm

With year on year increases in Council Tax likely to be above 3 per cent and an increasing cost of living, NHS staff are well deserving of a pay increase, though I doubt there will be much left over for luxuries.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:06 pm

kentonclaret wrote:With year on year increases in Council Tax likely to be above 3 per cent and an increasing cost of living, NHS staff are well deserving of a pay increase, though I doubt there will be much left over for luxuries.

Here’s how much I will have for luxuries.

I am a band 6 nurse on the 3rd tier of the band so my basic salary is £28,746. After tax, pension, union fee (which is almost mandatory), my take home pay is about 1650 a month. Because I work weekends I actually earn nearer to 31k a year. My take home pay fluctuates between 1650 to 2000 depending on how many nights/ weekends I work.

If I recieve the 6.5 percent pay increase average I will increase my monthly pay by 168, although it will fluctuate depending on nights/weekends. After tax and pension It will obviously be less than that.

The vast majority of nurses are band 5 so will not recieve that much if they get the 6.5 percent average.

Not sure what luxuries I can get with that? A takeaway a week?

Although I welcome the change I won’t be booking the cruise anytime soon

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:09 pm

A pay rise which is less than the prevailing rate of inflation is a pay cut in real terms.

In many recent years pay rises in the public sector [including the NHS] have either been zero or a lower % than the existing inflation rate....pay cuts in most cases....for several years.

Do not trust J. Hunt or believe a few cheap newspaper headlines about 'big pay increases'..

Increases in tax allowances.. - these need to be looked at very carefully to see their REAL value.
For instance they should rise in line with inflation each year just so we stand still.
Calculate the MONEY increase in the size of the tax allowance in pounds...divide it by 52 weeks...see how much extra you are getting?
Calculate the MONEY increase as an annual percentage and compare that with the annual inflation rate to see what your REAL pay increase is....that will be illuminating.

- a desirable example imo...if any government wants to reduce poverty [and perhaps inequality] they could increase basic tax free allowances by say 8% when say inflation was only 3%. This would be genuinely helpful.
Thing is, it could be quite costly [public spending, government debt. austerity..?] and it would proportionately benefit the poorest the most, therefore don't expect to see too much of this from the present lot in charge.

Post 9...'People create their own inflation through wanting a new phone, car,..etc

For the vast majority of families they create their own poverty line..'

- just where does this tosh come from..this is 'making up Economics as you go along'..? Scary stuff.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:09 pm

Inchy wrote:Here’s how much I will have for luxuries.

I am a band 6 nurse on the 3rd tier of the band so my basic salary is £28,746. After tax, pension, union fee (which is almost mandatory), my take home pay is about 1650 a month. Because I work weekends I actually earn nearer to 31k a year. My take home pay fluctuates between 1650 to 2000 depending on how many nights/ weekends I work.

If I recieve the 6.5 percent pay increase average I will increase my monthly pay by 168, although it will fluctuate depending on nights/weekends. After tax and pension It will obviously be less than that.

The vast majority of nurses are band 5 so will not recieve that much if they get the 6.5 percent average.

Not sure what luxuries I can get with that? A takeaway a week?

Can I just say, I personally dont think you're paid anywhere near enough for what you do. I am a regular patient at my local hospital, and the nurses there are fantastic - as are most nurses that I have encountered in the NHS. So, thank you Inchy for being a nurse.