Anti semetism

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Rowls
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:45 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Are we allowed to criticise this? ....
The UK is a free country and you can say -just about- what you like.

But it's off topic.

This thread has a very specific request as detailed in the OP whereby poster corporal jones made an honest and straightforward request for people to post examples of anti-semitism in the Labour party.

As I've said before, please start alternative threads to discuss off topic conversations.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:36 am

Here's an example of anti-semitism.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-n ... ?r=US&IR=T" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Cryssys » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:57 am

Rowls wrote: But it's off topic.

This thread has a very specific request as detailed in the OP whereby poster corporal jones made an honest and straightforward request for people to post examples of antisemitism in the Labour party.

As I've said before, please start alternative threads to discuss off topic conversations.
Gotta love this guy. This is his own personal thread and no one else can play on it. How many threads have you trolled in the past and twisted to suit your own agenda? You're so pious it's unreal.

Why don't you just take your ball and go home sonny.
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Rowls
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:24 am

Cryssys wrote:Gotta love this guy. This is his own personal thread and no one else can play on it. How many threads have you trolled in the past and twisted to suit your own agenda? You're so pious it's unreal.

Why don't you just take your ball and go home sonny.
It's not my thread; it's corporal jones thread. And I'm providing the information he requested.

Apparently I don't even have enough evil superpowers to stop you posting on it.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:32 am

Here's a little politically charged tweet detailing some info from Buzzfeed and yet more allegations

https://twitter.com/Maomentum_/status/1 ... 0568613888" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:41 pm

The Sunday Times has to today chosen to lead with the story of anti-semitism in the Labour party.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -9zzl0gxpv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sadly it's behind a paywall - if anyone has access please could you share?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by thatdberight » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:55 pm

Rowls wrote:The Sunday Times has to today chosen to lead with the story of anti-semitism in the Labour party.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -9zzl0gxpv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sadly it's behind a paywall - if anyone has access please could you share?
The headline;
"The Labour Party has failed to take disciplinary action against hundreds of members accused of anti-semitism under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, according to internal documents leaked to The Sunday Times.

A hard drive of emails and a confidential database last updated on March 8 reveal how the party’s system for dealing with such complaints is bedevilled by delays, inaction and interference from the leader’s office. They reveal members investigated for posting such online comments as “Heil Hitler”, “F*** the Jews” and “Jews are the problem” have not been expelled, even though the party received the complaints a year ago."
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by bfcjg » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:20 pm

The labour party has a very strong Muslim vote and membership councillors etc and because of the historic conflicts in the the Middle East the party is pro Palestine as was demonstrated at the last conference with the Palestian flag waving chanting etc which seemed bizarre considering the mess the tories had inflicted on the UK.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 8232957848" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just watch it with an open mind;how the F can we let this rabble anywhere near power. It really is a frightening prospect.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:42 am

corporal jones wrote:Can someone help me out. The news is full of the Labour party's apparent problem with anti semetism, but as yet I haven't heard any reports of what specific anti Semitic acts have taken place...
Hi again corporal jones

The latest revelation about anti-semitism in the Labour party has been revealed by none less than the BBC.

It would appear that the latest person to accuse Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party of covering up anti-semitism is ... *drum roll* ...

....

...

... Jeremy Corbyn!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47924025" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'll keep on posting these stories as and when they appear.

You're still welcome

Rowls

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:03 am

Rowls wrote:Hi again corporal jones

The latest revelation about anti-semitism in the Labour party has been revealed by none less than the BBC.

It would appear that the latest person to accuse Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party of covering up anti-semitism is ... *drum roll* ...

....

...

... Jeremy Corbyn!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47924025" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'll keep on posting these stories as and when they appear.

You're still welcome

Rowls
He didn't accuse. He expressed fears that evidence of it was being covered up, which is bad for Labour if true, but at least this means people will stfu with accusing Corbyn of being an anti-semite and stop accusing him of covering it up. Right?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:23 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:He didn't accuse. He expressed fears that evidence of it was being covered up, which is bad for Labour if true, but at least this means ...
:roll:

Now you're being anti-semantic.

Talk about splitting hairs.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by ecc » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:18 am

Don't try to take Rowls on. He is omniscient.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:44 am

ecc wrote:Don't try to take Rowls on. He is omniscient.
What a weird thing to say, ecc.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:17 am

Farage is back in town and his crowd will give labour and the tories a run for their money in any field of bigotry
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/a ... itic-posts
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:24 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Farage is back in town and his crowd will give labour and the tories a run for their money in any field of bigotry
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/a ... itic-posts
and the lefty media assault begins

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:35 am

Yep this becomes the trouble if you become a serious contender. Whether you are left right or purple all your **** gets dragged out for all to see. It's why in the long run party's like the BNP UKIP or now the Brexit party will ultimately kill themselves.

You carry on with bluelab and smudge like little snowflakes in a big conspiracy snow storm if it makes you feel better. Just hope you haven't wasted any more of your cash on these idiots
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:37 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Yep this becomes the trouble if you become a serious contender. Whether you are left right or purple all your **** gets dragged out for all to see. It's why in the long run party's like the BNP UKIP or now the Brexit party will ultimately kill themselves.

You carry on with bluelab and smudge like little snowflakes in a big conspiracy snow storm if it makes you feel better. Just hope you haven't wasted any more of your cash on these idiots
Sent my entire wage to tommy last week, living off rice and left over tins of beans for the rest of the month now but it will be worth it to sock it to those pesky brown people

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:42 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:Sent my entire wage to tommy last week, living off rice and left over tins of beans for the rest of the month now but it will be worth it to sock it to those pesky brown people
Well done

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Guller Bull » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:58 pm

He said she said ad infinitum ad nauseum

Give me three lumps of sh** and I will find hard bits and soft bits, bits that seems to stink more than others bits that seem less offensive but guess what, they are all still sh**

Stop arguing over which bit is better - it's just sh**

Politics wont change until you make politicians change. Stop justifying - stop supporting - stop voting. They will soon get the message that they are not representing us. I dont care if your dads mums auntie voted, conservative, labour or liberal and that you are a blue blooded fop or a union loving working class hero - this is not about history its about the future.

Stop the rot. Don't cancel each other out - it's not acceptable how we are being represented, so don't subscribe to party politics.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:52 pm

corporal jones wrote:Can someone help me out. The news is full of the Labour party's apparent problem with anti semetism, but as yet I haven't heard any reports of what specific anti Semitic acts have taken place. I have no particular political axe to grind by the way. Is it just that the Westminster elite think it's important and don't realise that the rest of the country is more concerned with getting through life at the moment. The Labour Party is a lot of things, but racist?
Hi again corporal jones

Here's the latest incident: Labour MP, Richard Burgon, has been caught lying about saying "Zionism is the enemy of peace".

It's very odd because he states he is very proud of his view that "Zionism is the enemy of peace" when addressing what appears to be a Muslim audience but when he on TV he flatly denied the remarks and said they were not his views. Puzzling, you could say.

It's almost as if he's telling one group of people what he thinks they want to hear then saying something completely different to the wider public.

https://twitter.com/magnitsky/status/11 ... 0713327618" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'll keep posting these incidents as and when they happen or I become aware of them.

You're welcome

Rowls

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:02 pm

Anyone else astonished that Rowls isn't posting about Brexit anymore?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:09 pm

There's not a lot more to say about Brexit until it actually happens. And that would be for the Brexit thread, no? Not the anti-semitism thread? You know how these different threads work?

What I am astonished by is the way so many people who like to post their anti-racism credentials on here have nothing to say about the constant drip feed of these stories around the subject of anti-semitism in the Labour party.

It's almost as if they're only interested in condemning racism when it is politically expedient on them to do so.

I include yourself in this, Lancaster.

What have you got to say about this latest MPs outright lies? Why would he speak so openly about his hatred of Zionism one day and then deny it entirely when on TV?

If you've nothing to say about instances of anti-semitism in the Labour party then fine. We can assume you don't care about it. We might presume you're not fussed by it.

But have you got anything to say on the actual subject of the thread?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:14 pm

Not really. Though its nice to see my initial view on Burgon on being as thick as mince being 100% spot on.

I'm not going to vote for either Labour or the Conservatives again till they sort themselves out and both are clearly full of racists and anti-semites.

But the whole country is now, so thats not exactly news.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Erasmus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:52 pm

Rowls, your contribution concerning Richard Burgon in post 120 reveals the confusion on the issue you seem to have. Burgon may have been guilty of dissimulation but the statement 'Zionism is the enemy of the peace' is not anti-semitic. Can't you understand the difference? Anti-semitism is a form of racism expressed against Jewish people, criticism of Zionism is nothing of the sort, it is simply condemnation of the political policies of the state of Israel.

One is absolutely abominable, the other is perfectly reasonable. Your contributions seemed quite confused on this, I hope this is not deliberate.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:05 pm

Rowls wrote:There's not a lot more to say about Brexit until it actually happens. And that would be for the Brexit thread, no? Not the anti-semitism thread? You know how these different threads work?

What I am astonished by is the way so many people who like to post their anti-racism credentials on here have nothing to say about the constant drip feed of these stories around the subject of anti-semitism in the Labour party.

It's almost as if they're only interested in condemning racism when it is politically expedient on them to do so.

I include yourself in this, Lancaster.

What have you got to say about this latest MPs outright lies? Why would he speak so openly about his hatred of Zionism one day and then deny it entirely when on TV?

If you've nothing to say about instances of anti-semitism in the Labour party then fine. We can assume you don't care about it. We might presume you're not fussed by it.

But have you got anything to say on the actual subject of the thread?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

This from the guy who defended Kelvin Mackenzie for comparing a young footballer with African heritage to a gorilla, Mark Sampson for the racist bullying of Eni Aluko, and Man Utd fans for racist chanting aimed at Romelu Lukaku (and that’s just off the top of my head), yet when the chance comes to have a pop at Labour, all of a sudden he’s an anti-racism campaigner.

Hypocrisy doesn’t even begin to describe it.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by HatfieldClaret » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:16 pm

Hypocrisy doesn’t even begin to describe it.

Hypocrisy describes perfectly Burgon's antics.

For more hypocrisy see Guido Fawkes report today re Vix Lowthion, the Green MEP candidate for the IoW. Astonishing !!

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:35 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/m ... al-marxism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rowls missed one.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by South West Claret. » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:23 pm

Erasmus wrote:Rowls, your contribution concerning Richard Burgon in post 120 reveals the confusion on the issue you seem to have. Burgon may have been guilty of dissimulation but the statement 'Zionism is the enemy of the peace' is not anti-semitic. Can't you understand the difference? Anti-semitism is a form of racism expressed against Jewish people, criticism of Zionism is nothing of the sort, it is simply condemnation of the political policies of the state of Israel.

One is absolutely abominable, the other is perfectly reasonable. Your contributions seemed quite confused on this, I hope this is not deliberate.

“criticism of Zionism is nothing of the sort, it is simply condemnation of the political policies of the state of Israel.” Spot on.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:06 am

Erasmus wrote:Rowls, your contribution concerning Richard Burgon in post 120 reveals the confusion on the issue you seem to have. Burgon may have been guilty of dissimulation but the statement 'Zionism is the enemy of the peace' is not anti-semitic. Can't you understand the difference? Anti-semitism is a form of racism expressed against Jewish people, criticism of Zionism is nothing of the sort, it is simply condemnation of the political policies of the state of Israel.

One is absolutely abominable, the other is perfectly reasonable. Your contributions seemed quite confused on this, I hope this is not deliberate.
No confusion whatsoever - in fact if you had read my post correctly you'd have realised I haven't accused him of anti-semitism. I've pointed out that he has been caught lying.

"So why is it in the anti-semitism thread?" would be a good question and the reason I've chosen to post it here is because of Burgon's bizarre behaviour - he not only denied saying what he is on video as saying (and saying in a very strong, forthright and "passionate" manner) but he denied these were his views at all.

Whether the idea that "Zionism is the enemy of Peace" constitutes anti-semitism may be up for debate but Burgon clearly thought there was something shameful in having expressed this opinion - hence why he lied about it and said that it was 'not his opinion'.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:10 am

No, this is about anti-semitism in the Labour Party - read the OP and you might understand.

The OP very specifically requested examples of anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

Whether the phrase "cultural Marxism" is anti-semitism would be up for debate. Certainly I've heard and read the phrase hundreds of thousands of times in journalism and academia but this is the very first time I've ever seen it described as "anti-semitic".

However, it's off topic in terms of what was set out in the OP.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:12 am

Greenmile wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:

This from the guy who defended Kelvin Mackenzie for comparing a young footballer with African heritage to a gorilla, Mark Sampson for the racist bullying of Eni Aluko, and Man Utd fans for racist chanting aimed at Romelu Lukaku (and that’s just off the top of my head), yet when the chance comes to have a pop at Labour, all of a sudden he’s an anti-racism campaigner.

Hypocrisy doesn’t even begin to describe it.
Just off the top of your head, eh? Right. OK.

You're an exceedingly dull poster.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Greenmile » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:52 am

Rowls wrote:Just off the top of your head, eh? Right. OK.

You're an exceedingly dull poster.
Straight to the ad hominem, I see.

You have no other argument because you know I’m right.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:07 am

One thing that does stand out on this thread going off some replies and the likes dished out by prominent posters who normally seem outraged at most things is racism clearly only counts when it is aimed at people they like.

If there is a group of people from a country they care little for they seem fair game.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Erasmus » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:00 am

Rowls, that's a really dishonest response to my point. But this discussion is not about your primary principle in life, which is of course, 'Rowls must be never be wrong'.

You started by including Cpl Jones's question about anti-semitism in the Labour Party and then said 'Here's the latest incident' with no attempt to make it clear that you were highlighting dissimulation and not anti-semitism, thereby confusing the issue of anti-Zionism with anti-semitism in a manner that makes it appear they are the same thing. Was that deliberate?

Of course your preoccupation with always being right is a matter of no significance (except of course to yourself), but what is important is the way this tactic has been repeatedly employed by the state of Israel and its supporters in order to counter legitimate condemnation of its policies. Israel seeks to justify the unjustifiable seizure of land and the best tactic it has to do this is by attempting to brand all criticism as a form of anti-semitism. You are following exactly that line and should at least have the honesty to own up to it.

Sorry if this appears a bit personal, but it is the central issue in this debate and your post provided a near perfect illustration of this point.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:52 am

Erasmus wrote:Rowls, that's a really dishonest response to my point. But this discussion is not about your primary principle in life, which is of course, 'Rowls must be never be wrong'.
You need to look up what 'dishonest' means Erasmus.

I am simply pointing out incidents as and when they happen. I'm doing so, largely, implacably and people can decide for themselves whether they are anti-semitic.

The OP hadn't heard of *any* instances and this was their point - they hadn't heard anything about this ongoing story.

So I am pointing out incidents as and when they occur.

I'm not finding much difficulty despite not actively looking for them - I post them here only when I stumble across them.

Of course, when the Times and the BBC both lead with stories of allegations of anti-semitism, potential cover-ups of anti-semitism and accusations of failures to deal with anti-semitism then it isn't hard to find these examples.

Not a single person from the many Labour supporting or left-leaning posters on this board has the guts, the backbone or the strength of character to concede that perhaps -just perhaps- there might be a bit of an "issue" with anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

As ever, I'll keep you up to date and informed right here when the next story breaks...

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:55 am

Erasmus wrote:Rowls, that's a really dishonest response to my point. But this discussion is not about your primary principle in life, which is of course, 'Rowls must be never be wrong'.

Sorry if this appears a bit personal, but it is the central issue in this debate and your post provided a near perfect illustration of this point.
The central issue in this thread is spelled out very simply in the OP - it is anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

By posting examples of anti-semitism in the Labour Party (and stories surrounding the issue) I am neither "right" or "wrong" - I am simply providing the OP with what they requested - potential examples of anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

If you want to start a thread about me, then go ahead and start one.

This thread is about anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Erasmus » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:08 pm

Well, Rowls, that is an absolute non-response to the point about your confusing anti-Zionism with anti-semitism in the Labour Party, which your post epitomises. What do you think about that issue? The fact is that you posted an example of anti-Zionism when the request was for examples of anti-semitism, thereby confusing the two.
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:40 pm

Erasmus wrote:Well, Rowls, that is an absolute non-response to the point about your confusing anti-Zionism with anti-semitism in the Labour Party, which your post epitomises. What do you think about that issue? The fact is that you posted an example of anti-Zionism when the request was for examples of anti-semitism, thereby confusing the two.
Oh, you're actually engaging the issue? Thank the Lord!

What's the difference between "anti-Zionism" and anti-semitism?

Hmmmmmmmm?

That's the million dollar question isn't it?

Well, we're going to have to be adults and decide for ourselves. Unfortunately there's a lot of cross-over between the two concepts so childishly simple opinions aren't going to be very helpful.

People have to decide for themselves - which is why I've been posting these incidents largely without comment.

Watch the clip for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hoyo140ITc4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems a bit chilling to me - the way he's asking the audience to "look up" who supports the Labour Friends of Israel group. But of course, that's my opinion.

My opinion may differ from yours but, unlike Corbynite Labour MP Richard Burgon, I actually know what my opinion is. It's my opinion that he thought a good dose of "anti-Zionism" would play exceedingly well to that audience.

Judging by the applause, it apparently did.

But then, sometime after the event but before he was interviewed on British TV, Corbynite Labour MP Richard Burgon, changed his mind and decided that his previously expressed opinions were "not his opinions" and that he wouldn't have expressed them.

So some people may hear what he had to say and decide that he is possibly anti-semitic. Other people may hear what he had to say and decide that he might not be anti-semitic and make a distinction between anti-semitism and anti-zionism. Others may decide that there is a fine line between the anti-semitism and anti-zionism and that Richard Burgon was (knowingly or otherwise) playing it deliberately on the line and specifically for his audience.

What does Corbynite Labour MP, Richard Burgon really think? If we take him at his word he thinks that his previously expressed thoughts are clearly beyond the pale - he "regrets" them.

People can watch the clip themselves (link above) and people can read the BBC article themselves (link below):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47952275" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rowls
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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:46 pm

But at least there have been some comprehensive explanations of why an adult would decry "Zionism is the enemy of Peace" waaaaaay back in 2016* and then say "I do not agree with the phrase" in 2019.

And here they are:

Richard Burgon, MP (the man himself)
"The terminology has different meanings to different people and the simplistic language used does not reflect how I now think about this complex issue and I would not use it again today"

Which I'm sure we can all agree clears up .... erm ... well, it means what it means and we can decide what these words mean for themselves.

Owen Jones, political commentator
"Obviously @RichardBurgon shouldn't resign - and, equally, many of us on the left have gone on a journey these last few years about how we use precise and sensitive language to express solidarity with a Palestinian people suffering under an unjust, brutal and illegal occupation."

Which explains that Richard Burgon originally made the comments because he hadn't yet been on a journey. Which explains everything entirely.

As I say, people can make up their own minds.

edit - * should read 2014, I've kept the original for transparency. It turns out Ruchard Burgon's journey was 2 years longer than I'd thought which helps his Damscene story line.
Last edited by Rowls on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by South West Claret. » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:46 pm

“criticism of Zionism is nothing of the sort, it is simply condemnation of the political policies of the state of Israel.”

Not only spot on but the Israelis bullying occupation of Palestine is also illegal and has been for many many years say the United Nations.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:49 pm

Want one of Rowls' personal opinions?

I'll give you one of my personal opinions:

I find it bizarre that the Middle East conflict was such a hot topic in Leeds in 2014.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:56 pm

And perhaps this story is being blown entirely out of proportion?

Perhaps it's perfectly normal for a shadow cabinet minister to announce to a community hall that he thinks "Zionism is the enemy of Peace" but then to decide on BBC TV that he wouldn't have said that because it is 'not his opinion'?

And then, when he is caught lying, announce that he "regrets" the phrase.

Maybe we should all relax about a shadow cabinet members saying how "proud" he was to express his opinion and openly warn his audience that certain other Labour MPs were part of a group expressing friendship with Israel?

Perhaps we should just relax when high ranking, mainstream politicians warn us how to look up which MP might be a friend to Israel?

Maybe this is all OK?
Last edited by Rowls on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:57 pm

Rowls wrote:No, this is about anti-semitism in the Labour Party - read the OP and you might understand.

The OP very specifically requested examples of anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

Whether the phrase "cultural Marxism" is anti-semitism would be up for debate. Certainly I've heard and read the phrase hundreds of thousands of times in journalism and academia but this is the very first time I've ever seen it described as "anti-semitic".

However, it's off topic in terms of what was set out in the OP.
The title of the thread is "Anti Semitism"

The term "cultural marxism" came out of Nazi Germany (Kulturbolschewismus), and was used to link Jews to Communism. Nowadays it's used to peddle the idea that the western world is secretly being taken over by communists disguised as school teachers, doctors, public servants, and so on. So even when it isn't intended as a grossly offensive term to Jewish people, it represents an utterly bonkers view of the world and is thus used as a blanket smear for anyone promoting progressive and humanist ideas. I've seen the term used in the United States for people advocating a free at point of use health care system like the NHS.

Anyone in academia using the term should be aware of its etymology, and should know better, but it's not surprising as the far right is the child of nazism, and so co-opts their language easily. Katie Hopkins talking about a "final solution" and "cockroaches" David Cameron referring to people fleeing war and persecution as "a swarm" - it's all the language of hate. No different to Hitler, the far right would struggle to win support for their policies without instilling fear and hatred in their supporters - leaving their policies as the "only possible option"

If you want to debate how un-anti-Semitic "cultural marxism" is; here is the website of the Board of Deputies for British Jews, and you can explain to them how they've got it all wrong:

https://www.bod.org.uk/contact/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:00 pm

AndrewJB wrote:The title of the thread is "Anti Semitism"
To clarify, here is the OP for you in full.
corporal jones wrote:Can someone help me out. The news is full of the Labour party's apparent problem with anti semetism, but as yet I haven't heard any reports of what specific anti Semitic acts have taken place. I have no particular political axe to grind by the way. Is it just that the Westminster elite think it's important and don't realise that the rest of the country is more concerned with getting through life at the moment. The Labour Party is a lot of things, but racist?
It clearly requests details on anti-semitism in Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:09 pm

South West Claret. wrote:“criticism of Zionism is nothing of the sort, it is simply condemnation of the political policies of the state of Israel.”

Not only spot on but the Israelis bullying occupation of Palestine is also illegal and has been for many many years say the United Nations.
Completely wrong actually. Nowhere near "spot on". Just plain wrong.

Criticism of the state of Israel is criticism of the state of Israel.

Criticism of Zionism is criticism of Zionism.

The political policies of the government and/or state of Israel are NOT the same thing as the concept of zionism.
Last edited by Rowls on Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Erasmus » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:10 pm

Rowls, you are still avoiding the question. Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism is it? The question of a Labour MP's changing his line in light of later criticisms is moderately serious, but nothing like as serious as the fate of millions of Palestinians. Anti-Zionism protests against the abuse of the Palestinians, anti-semitism is a deplorable form of racism. Why is it hard to see the difference?

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:11 pm

Erasmus wrote:Rowls, you are still avoiding the question. Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism is it? ... Why is it hard to see the difference?
I think you've missed my post #138 on this page.

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:12 pm

Erasmus wrote:Rowls, you are still avoiding the question. Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism is it? ... Why is it hard to see the difference?
Here it is for you:
Rowls wrote:Oh, you're actually engaging the issue? Thank the Lord!

What's the difference between "anti-Zionism" and anti-semitism?

Hmmmmmmmm?

That's the million dollar question isn't it?

Well, we're going to have to be adults and decide for ourselves. Unfortunately there's a lot of cross-over between the two concepts so childishly simple opinions aren't going to be very helpful.

People have to decide for themselves - which is why I've been posting these incidents largely without comment.

Watch the clip for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hoyo140ITc4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems a bit chilling to me - the way he's asking the audience to "look up" who supports the Labour Friends of Israel group. But of course, that's my opinion.

My opinion may differ from yours but, unlike Corbynite Labour MP Richard Burgon, I actually know what my opinion is. It's my opinion that he thought a good dose of "anti-Zionism" would play exceedingly well to that audience.

Judging by the applause, it apparently did.

But then, sometime after the event but before he was interviewed on British TV, Corbynite Labour MP Richard Burgon, changed his mind and decided that his previously expressed opinions were "not his opinions" and that he wouldn't have expressed them.

So some people may hear what he had to say and decide that he is possibly anti-semitic. Other people may hear what he had to say and decide that he might not be anti-semitic and make a distinction between anti-semitism and anti-zionism. Others may decide that there is a fine line between the anti-semitism and anti-zionism and that Richard Burgon was (knowingly or otherwise) playing it deliberately on the line and specifically for his audience.

What does Corbynite Labour MP, Richard Burgon really think? If we take him at his word he thinks that his previously expressed thoughts are clearly beyond the pale - he "regrets" them.

People can watch the clip themselves (link above) and people can read the BBC article themselves (link below):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47952275" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:44 pm

Some more anti-Semitism for you all today:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/201 ... os-remarks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This one with a blend of Islamophobia-apologia too.

And here is the far right website "Spiked" with their attempt to cast the blame for Scruton's anti-Semitism on the journalist - who presumably forced Scruton at gunpoint to say these things.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/04/1 ... n-scandal/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Anti semetism

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:50 pm

Your Guardian story is actually from 10th April AndrewJB - it's a week old.

The rebuttal piece from the "Spiked" website is likewise a week old.

Here is the Spectator's printed rebuttal direct from Sir Roger Scruton:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/r ... -thinking/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NB: This is also a week old.

None of this concerns anti-semitism in the Labour Party and is off topic.

As an aside, I find it strange you refer to the "Spiked" website as being "far right" when it is, in fact, edited by a committed Marxist left-winger.

You can't get much more left wing than that and if you had imagined it to be "right wing" (let along far right) then I suggest you do a bit of research on these loose terms so as to not embarrass yourself again.

All the best

Rowls

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