Football's Magic Money Tree

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Chester Perry
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:27 pm

Royboyclaret wrote:To put it in context the latest huge contract signed by Mesut Ozil was valued at £63m whilst Burnley's last reported total Wage bill was £61.2m.


I know which I would rather have

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Royboyclaret » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:18 am

Liverpool this morning announced their financial results to Jun'18 and they make remarkable reading.

Income increased by £90m to £455m and a Club record £190m spent on players.

Pre-tax Profit of £125m compared to £40m in the previous year.

TV Revenue up £66m to £220m and Commercial Revenue up £17m to £154m (following on from recent days' revelations of Commercial Revenue at City and United both approaching £250m). Further evidence, if we needed it, of just how difficult it is for Burnley to compete in the sponsorship market, our comparable figure in the last set of accounts was a mere £6m.
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby randomclaret2 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:35 am

When will our 17/18 accounts be released ?

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Royboyclaret » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:37 am

randomclaret2 wrote:When will our 17/18 accounts be released ?


End of March, randomclaret.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby randomclaret2 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:54 am

Thanks Roy

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:02 pm

Posted a couple of weeks ago about Liverpool's expected meg-profit (#451) but this is bigger than that suggested

bit more detail and perspective -

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... it-2017-18
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47168032
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... fits-125m/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... stars.html
https://www.football365.com/news/liverp ... it-of-125m

Once the hyperbole dissipates then there should be some interesting stories around these figures (I believe Liverpool will be eternally grateful to Barcelona and those fees and agreements around the Coutinho deal - incidentally the man who brokered that deal on Barca's behalf is now in charge of transfers at Arsenal - what could possibly go wrong)

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:40 pm

Not my usual kind of post - but what people will do to make money from football (suppose can't say I think Qatar deserve to host the world cup though)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... f-partners

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Royboyclaret » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:28 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Not my usual kind of post - but what people will do to make money from football (suppose can't say I think Qatar deserve to host the world cup though)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... f-partners


I guess there'd be an element of poetic justice in such a campaign, on the basis that the Qatar 2022 bid team allegedly sabotaged those of their rivals.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:35 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Not my usual kind of post - but what people will do to make money from football (suppose can't say I think Qatar deserve to host the world cup though)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... f-partners


Reading that article, you have to wonder what his company was doing to the Russians prior to the world cup because there was a lot of scaremongering going on and it went off without a hitch.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:56 pm

It is rumoured within the game that Susanna Dinnage gave backword on taking over from Richard Scudamore at the Premier League after a secret meeting with the big six - who continue to press for a greater share of International TV rights before the agreement made last summer comes into force - no surprise in their greedy pursuit - but what on earth are they playing at in demonstrating that they are going to be impossible to work with

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... clash.html

Also no surprise that they meet regularly to plan their selfish agenda and are believed to have a WhatsApp group - talk about giving Facebook (owners of WhatsApp and general purveyors of high moral and ethical standards who would never dream of spying on anyone) an advantage at the next round of rights-sales

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:20 pm

Another good thread from SwissRamble this time on the finances of those reaching the final stages of the Champs and Europa League

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 1607522309

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:28 pm

Aggi posted part one of this last week #482 - a thought provoking article on TV rights - the 2nd part has been published today - what do you think - I love point 3

https://www.football365.com/news/the-fu ... v-part-two

Looking forward to next weeks article now

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:55 pm

The BBC have done a little piece called A European Super League: The future of Football?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47177690

When you have watched this either read the previous post's link if you haven't already or reread it

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Buxtonclaret » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:22 pm

It'll eat itself all together at some point, in smaller, ever greedier circles.
Much prefer the football of yesteryear.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Royboyclaret » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:14 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Aggi posted part one of this last week #482 - a thought provoking article on TV rights - the 2nd part has been published today - what do you think - I love point 3

https://www.football365.com/news/the-fu ... v-part-two

Looking forward to next weeks article now


Agree, Chester Perry, another brilliant article from John Nicholson. Hard hitting with no punches pulled.

Point 8) is the one that resonates most with me, something that has been at both the front and back of my mind for a long time. We are one of those clubs that are 'trapped' in the 7th to 17th syndrome with avoiding relegation as the as the only real incentive each season.

In every press conference before a Cup match (whether that be FA Cup, League Cup or even Europa League) Sean Dyche is at pains to point out that although we will be paying that competition due respect, the PL will always take priority. Dyche will have been left in no doubt as to where our priorities lie as a club. That really hurts for someone brought up in an era where the FA Cup was held in such high esteem.

The fact that the winners of the FA Cup earn £3.5m compared to over £100m for simply surviving in the PL is a stat that tells us all we need to know regarding the direction football in now heading.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:35 pm

Roy - Judging by the posts around cup games on here - that point is probably the most pertinent to our fans

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:06 pm

Aaron Ramsey has found his Magic Money Tree

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47203118

to think some thought we might be able to tempt him only last month - that wage is a galaxy far far away (thank goodness)

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby tiger76 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:45 pm

Buxtonclaret wrote:It'll eat itself all together at some point, in smaller, ever greedier circles.
Much prefer the football of yesteryear.


People have been making this argument for about a decade now,and yet the money keeps on flowing.

A European Super league has been mooted since the 1980's,and although the CL is a more condensed version,for whatever reason the big clubs havn't made the final leap,perhaps they realise that any such venture has the potential to quickly become stale,and if any super league did emerge how would their fans react if say someone like Man City or PSG found themselves in mid-table and not challenging for top dog.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:24 pm

What you see in that piece on the BBC is that fans in countries without a competitive league long for proper sustained competition and believe that the Super League will give them that. Fans in our country want to keep the traditional rivalries and being able to rile their mates at work, Itshould be noted that if all of Utd, City, Liverpool, Arse, Spurs and Chelsea got in that would still be possible for them.

What is driving all this is owners who have little emotional attachment to a club and league historically and/or fear that they are missing the financial juggernaut of the Premier League and consequently fear they will have no place at the top table going forward.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:06 am

Athletico Madrid are much admired as a team who have persistently tried to break the duopoly in Spain in recent years - regularly going deep into the Champions league also - but what is the cost - SwissRamble looks at their first set of financial results since moving to their impressive new Stadium - there is a dark cloud on the horizon, the debt (not interest free owner loans) could be catastrophic,

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 6715843585

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:35 am

So, how do you afford an £83m contract over 4 years when you have just paid £88m for Ronaldo and are paying him £26m a year - the twists and turns of financial management of a super club are a veritable tightrope walk - and yes it comes back to the fans too - would you fancy a 30% rise in season ticket prices.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... amsey.html

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Royboyclaret » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:19 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Athletico Madrid are much admired as a team who have persistently tried to break the duopoly in Spain in recent years - regularly going deep into the Champions league also - but what is the cost - SwissRamble looks at their first set of financial results since moving to their impressive new Stadium - there is a dark cloud on the horizon, the debt (not interest free owner loans) could be catastrophic,

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 6715843585


Certainly some eye watering numbers there, Chester Perry. Loans of 429m euros over the last seven years.

One table in the link that's worth a second look is Deloittes Income league for 2017/18 which indicates 13 PL clubs within the top 30 European teams. Brighton are 29th with the equivalent of £138m, but we don't feature. Probably for one of two reasons, either we don't quite match that figure of Brighton (although I'd be very surprised if that's the case) or more likely that the only people still aware of our detail to Jun'18 are our Directors.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:41 pm

I keep looking at that Roy and wondering like you - believe you are write re the directors. What I do not understand is why we are not listed in those charts just focusing on TV revenue, as the Premier League have published what we received from them as have the Football League for our League cup games.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:42 am

The power of football - if the authorities pull this off I will be amazed - though countless fans will be grateful - the difficulty is that fans just don't travel from the home town to the away town - they travel from all over the country - how do you compensate that on the cheapest ticket

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... -football/

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Riders » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:47 am

That's promising. I'm sure it'll take some time for them to iron out all the kinks and find the right model, but if they do it'll be neat.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:22 pm

Riders, it will probably mean either cheapest tickets will cost substantially more or fans will have to pay a slight premium for a ticket that can be transferred for a specific journey this way - I cannot see the rail companies being forced to refund tickets where fans can no longer make the trip due to other commitments.

It is of course one business asking another business to accept a loss while the former is maximising it's earning potential - wouldn't be an issue if the schedules were set in stone 12 weeks in advance would it

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Royboyclaret » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:32 pm

Latest financial results from Manchester United reveal Jose Mourinho and his staff received pay off totalling £19.6m.

Not a bad day's work.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:43 pm

Indeed - waiting for detail before posting a link - meanwhile - this is what a team of Champs League no hopers can achieve off the pitch - startling stuff

"United reported record revenue for the second quarter of the financial year of £208.6m. The club is forecasting annual revenue to be between £615-630 million pounds"

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:22 pm

Bit more detail starting to come through on those Utd figures

https://www.football365.com/news/man-un ... -and-staff
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... s-15830222

£44m operating profit for the quarter is some going - especially when followed by a transfer window with no buys, though the raft of new deals that have occurred in the last few weeks will push the wage bill up even higher

debt has dropped by just shy of £11m to £318m

Jose personally got £15m - a years wages

In line with recent discussions on here Utd confirmed recent commercial deals and that announcements were to be made on another shortly

We also are starting to see the impact of UEFA's new tv rights deal for the Champions league (there is an interesting table in the SwissRamble piece on Athletico Madrid about ranking payments for the clubs in the Champs League (Utd get 31m euro from that) before earnings from the competition itself, that will no doubt reduce next year if they qualify

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... -mourinho/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... nited.html

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:04 pm

For the unaware the Guardian have produced a article outlining the tangled web of money power and politics in the European game - take a deep breath before you dive in

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... nsors-uefa

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:10 pm

Watford have posted there financial results for last season (a sizeable loss which may explain the Richarlison deal) SwissRamble has been looking at the figures

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 8186446848


They have a growing debt especially on transfers - we are the only club in the league who don't have a debt excepting transfers (ignore what it says about Chelsea they owe Roman a £1billion)

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Royboyclaret » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:50 pm

Chester Perry wrote:For the unaware the Guardian have produced a article outlining the tangled web of money power and politics in the European game - take a deep breath before you dive in

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... nsors-uefa


Murky Waters !

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:02 pm

The Guardian have now followed up on that article with a breakdown of interests and intrigue by tie

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... es-last-16

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Royboyclaret » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:18 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Watford have posted there financial results for last season (a sizeable loss which may explain the Richarlison deal) SwissRamble has been looking at the figures

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 8186446848


They have a growing debt especially on transfers - we are the only club in the league who don't have a debt excepting transfers (ignore what it says about Chelsea they owe Roman a £1billion)


Watford's £32m Net Loss will surely be the worst of all the PL clubs, when they all get round to revealing their results to Jun'18, although thinking about it further perhaps Newcastle will be even worse.

That 67% Wages to Turnover ratio is the real killer for them and our nearer 50% is a far more realistic figure and will ensure we end the year in the black.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:33 pm

Roy if your age projections are right our ratio will not be that far off Watford's this season - Last years exceptional performance should help mask tha. Though it does seem to be a problem for smaller clubs who have prolonged stays in this league - see Stoke, West Brom and Swansea

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Royboyclaret » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:39 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Roy if your age projections are right our ratio will not be that far off Watford's this season - Last years exceptional performance should help mask tha. Though it does seem to be a problem for smaller clubs who have prolonged stays in this league - see Stoke, West Brom and Swansea


I'm sure I went for £70m Wages/£140m Turnover in post #272.

Certainly not considered any projections for this current season.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:39 am

This story seems to come round every few months - but makes more sense when you look at that "sports washing" article in the guardian

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... alman.html

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:52 am

Another Guardian article - this time on nepotism and "favours" in football

https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... y-fortunes

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:51 pm

It has taken a while but the ever excellent SwissRamble has had a look at Liverpool's record breaking financial results (posted 10 days ago) for last season

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 0587570176

profit almost entirely down to player sales which has been a trend for them - though they do claim that will no longer be so

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... -saga.html

If they mess up the league this year I can see them having o sell Salah though - he wants trophies and being a nearly man just will not cut it forever (same problem as Spurs really)
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:52 pm

Man City appear to be adding a new farming outpost - this time in China - - high time FIFA goth there act together on this issue

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... tfolio-cfg

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:45 pm

3rd article in the thought provoking series from Football 365 on TV and football - offering a blueprint for the future of Premier League Football on TV

https://www.football365.com/news/the-fu ... -blueprint

for those who have missed it part one I post 482 and part two in post 512
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:29 am

Remember how the championship clubs were so upset with the new tv deal for the Football League (the new branding is the height of folly). It seems that they have exacted their revenge. Since the announcement yesterday about the Leagues Chairman stepping down it has come to light that the plotting has not stopped and the Championship owners are still pressing forward with the notion of a Premier League 2 type of arrangement.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... s-EFL.html

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:01 pm

Gartsides vision will potentially be realized then it would seem.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:04 pm

The rules on wage growth in the Premier League permit only a 7% wage growth year on year from TV income (unless a the previous year's wage bill was less than £61m - a free pass to the promoted clubs). For many like us TV income is such a vast proportion of our income that this 7% limit becomes the prime restriction. There is no limit however if a club demonstrates that it's wage increase is covered by alternative sources of income, which in general means commercial income as Matchday Income tends to have a relatively stable ceiling. This is where Commercial or Sponsorship Income begins to play a telling role for the big boys in particular. Last year Man Utd grossed £280m in commercial Income which almost covered the whole of it's wage bill.

But who wants to be commercially involved in football - It is surprising really - attached is a list of Utd's 25 global partners (yes twentyfive) and remember the list for regional partners is a lot longer

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-re ... -and-more/

It is my belief that it is only the truly big clubs that can make very large amounts of money from such deals, though there are limited opportunities for clubs like ours to help emerging brands in markets where the Premier League is held in high esteem and/or the depth of penetration/recognition is high - this is what the LaBa 365 deal is about. Unfortunately for clubs like us it seems the only significant deals come from Gambling and I give it 3 years max before that is banned given the level of political interest in doing so.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:05 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Gartsides vision will potentially be realized then it would seem.


Not quite because he wanted the Premier League to run a 2 division structure - and that will not happen unless the big six quit for a superleague

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Royboyclaret » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:16 pm

Slightly weird in that our last reported Wage bill was £61m

Perhaps the £70m to Jun'18 that I've suggested for long enough might be a little high. Only five more weeks for confirmation one way or the other.

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:31 pm

Roy - I believe we crept under the threshold as that £61m includes the bonus for staying up that wouldn't have been paid otherwise

I also believe the club are trying to keep the wage bill around the low 50% of turnover as that is just good management and what we are known for - difficult for us but anything else could be damaging - irrespective of what a number of contributors to this board may feel

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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Royboyclaret » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:24 pm

Chester Perry wrote:Roy - I believe we crept under the threshold as that £61m includes the bonus for staying up that wouldn't have been paid otherwise

I also believe the club are trying to keep the wage bill around the low 50% of turnover as that is just good management and what we are known for - difficult for us but anything else could be damaging - irrespective of what a number of contributors to this board may feel


Yes, I take your point, but strangely the ratio is easier for our Board to control whilst we remain in the Premier League. Obviously as a result of the high levels of TV Income.

In the Championship it's far more difficult and the percentage for our last five seasons in that league have been -:
68%, 79%, 100%, 74% & 71% respectively.

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Chester Perry
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:23 am

Tv money Roy - when it is such a significant proportion of your income these rules act in your favour from a financial management perspective

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Chester Perry
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Re: Football's Magic Money Tree

Postby Chester Perry » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:27 am

Man City have confirmed their move into Chinese football by acquiring a stake in a 3rd tier club tier

The Daily Mail have conveniently given us an article providing an overview of their extensive farming operations

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... twork.html


I love the fact the City Football Group is generally referred to as CFG as everyone knows it is really City Farming Group


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