Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

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Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby houseboy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:09 pm

No doubt about it that we are all relieved and happy at our change of fortune lately but I thought I'd pose a question.

Given our position a month ago or less we all have to think I suppose that the change is perfectly timed before we started being left behind, and so it is, but I was wondering yesterday as to the timing, due to the window. Obviously the timing is good from the point of view of potential transfer targets in that any prospective incomings may now look at us and think that if they join they will have a slightly better than average chance of playing PL football next season, however is there the downside of the possibility of the board thinking that we don't need to invest as we now seem to be heading in the right direction?
I'm just asking a question in fun as obviously there is no 'bad' time to start playing well but our board don't seem to need much of an excuse to NOT spend money.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby nil_desperandum » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:19 pm

Look at it this way.
Would you like us to be in this transfer window and still on 12 points?
That in itself may have discouraged the board from spending money, and putting players on PL wages.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby CleggHall » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:24 pm

Only one answer here - 3 games, 9 points can only be a good thing, current squad playing well is good enough to keep us up.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby thatdberight » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:26 pm

If anybody thinks a win against 10-man rock bottom Huddersfield, two own goals from relegation threatened Fulham and a good performance where we trounced West Ham represent us tearing up this league, they are deluded.
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby CFS » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:27 pm

We played against teams we should of beat anyway.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:30 pm

But to think otherwise is to fall for "the best league in the world" ********.

Our job is to be fourth from bottom or better every season, along with the followers of every other team but the top six.

Three wins out of three is a great run and just at the right time.

Not getting carried away is key, but we've lifted ourselves from being in real trouble into the pack that "could go down", and dealt Huddersfield and Fulham defeats they are going to struggle to recover from.

Its good to be honest.
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby houseboy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:34 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Look at it this way.
Would you like us to be in this transfer window and still on 12 points?
That in itself may have discouraged the board from spending money, and putting players on PL wages.

Agree totally. I always said that if we looked 'doomed' they wouldn't buy for fear of Championship income.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby houseboy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:39 pm

thatdberight wrote:If anybody thinks a win against 10-man rock bottom Huddersfield, two own goals from relegation threatened Fulham and a good performance where we trounced West Ham represent us tearing up this league, they are deluded.

But it IS better than what was going before, don't you agree? I personally believe we need a couple of good incomings in this window and my question stands, would the board 'make do' now we 'appear' to be heading up?

As for the own goals you should, if you haven't, take a good look at Hendricks 'goal' to equalise, if the guy hadn't touched it it was clearly going in.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Ric_C » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:39 pm

On our day we can beat anyone outside the top 6

We mullered West Ham, who by all accounts bossed Arsenal at the weekend

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Clarets4me » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:45 pm

Perhaps the players were reminded of the " Relegation " clauses, said to be in their contracts, which will realign their pay-packets to more realistic levels in the event of our dropping to the Championship ? ;)

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby BabylonClaret » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:45 pm

What Lancaster said.

I just did s fsirly pessimistic prediction of points to the end of the season and came up with 33 (2 wins and 6 draws) which im my thinking makes it tight. Hppefully some of that draws may turn into wins (and maybe a couple into losses) but if we had 3 or 4 wins we should be looking at around 35-36 points which ought to be just enough.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby BabylonClaret » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:45 pm

What Lancaster said.

I just did s fsirly pessimistic prediction of points to the end of the season and came up with 33 (2 wins and 6 draws) which im my thinking makes it tight. Hppefully some of that draws may turn into wins (and maybe a couple into losses) but if we had 3 or 4 wins we should be looking at around 35-36 points which ought to be just enough.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby TheFamilyCat » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:46 pm

thatdberight wrote:If anybody thinks a win against 10-man rock bottom Huddersfield, two own goals from relegation threatened Fulham and a good performance where we trounced West Ham represent us tearing up this league, they are deluded.


When has anyone, ever claimed that we are “tearing up this league”?
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby houseboy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:51 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:But to think otherwise is to fall for "the best league in the world" ********.

Our job is to be fourth from bottom or better every season, along with the followers of every other team but the top six.

Three wins out of three is a great run and just at the right time.

Not getting carried away is key, but we've lifted ourselves from being in real trouble into the pack that "could go down", and dealt Huddersfield and Fulham defeats they are going to struggle to recover from.

Its good to be honest.

I agree with almost all of that, apart from the 'our job is to be fourth from bottom or better every season'. I understand what you mean but the 'ambition' to be fourth from bottom is a bit of a drab future isn't it. If all you want from your football club is for it to be making loads of money then that is great, but if you want to be entertained and have ambitions to actually win something (including most games) then surely we would be better suited to the Championship? I want us to be in the top division every season but when your success is measured simply by 'survival' I'm not so sure how long it would be before crowds start to fall from sheer tedium. Football fans are not, or at least were not, motivated by the state of their clubs bank balance but more by the excitement of watching your team do well and win games (and yes, occasionally a trophy). What makes things worse is the trick of giving up on trophies you could win in order to maintain the 'success' of keeping the millions rolling in.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby thatdberight » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:55 pm

houseboy wrote:But it IS better than what was going before, don't you agree? I personally believe we need a couple of good incomings in this window and my question stands, would the board 'make do' now we 'appear' to be heading up?

As for the own goals you should, if you haven't, take a good look at Hendricks 'goal' to equalise, if the guy hadn't touched it it was clearly going in.


I'm not sure it's going in before the first deflection off Sessegnon. But, I've no wish to deprive Jeff of the goal - maybe it'll get re-credited.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby thatdberight » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:57 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:When has anyone, ever claimed that we are “tearing up this league”?


I just meant that if anyone thought investment wasn't needed on the back of those three wins, they need to contextualise the nine points. Well done to the team for getting them, but two of three wins have been tight against poor teams who, to some extent, gave us a lift.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby houseboy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:58 pm

thatdberight wrote:I'm not sure it's going in before the first deflection off Sessegnon. But, I've no wish to deprive Jeff of the goal - maybe it'll get re-credited.

I hope it does - he deserves it for his display alone.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Ashingtonclaret46 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:12 pm

houseboy wrote:I agree with almost all of that, apart from the 'our job is to be fourth from bottom or better every season'. I understand what you mean but the 'ambition' to be fourth from bottom is a bit of a drab future isn't it. If all you want from your football club is for it to be making loads of money then that is great, but if you want to be entertained and have ambitions to actually win something (including most games) then surely we would be better suited to the Championship? I want us to be in the top division every season but when your success is measured simply by 'survival' I'm not so sure how long it would be before crowds start to fall from sheer tedium. Football fans are not, or at least were not, motivated by the state of their clubs bank balance but more by the excitement of watching your team do well and win games (and yes, occasionally a trophy). What makes things worse is the trick of giving up on trophies you could win in order to maintain the 'success' of keeping the millions rolling in.


All well and good, however, Lancaster is correct and that will be the case the longer we stay in the Premier League.
The bottom line is that, without massive outside investment, the club will be unable to progress to a point where we are doing anything apart from surviving with the big boys.
As for winning trophies, who will be playing in the final of the Caribao Cup this season against Manchester City? Either Spurs or Chelsea ---quelle surprise!
I am sure that the manager and players would love to be playing in a final of something, however, the realistic view has to be that we need a lot more money coming into the club to get anywhere near.
As you correctly say, the lack of success will lead to the crowds falling and the plastic fans falling by the wayside because they would actually rather watch one of the 'big' teams playing on TV than to support their local club. Such is life ----ask Blackburn Rovers!!
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:14 pm

apart from the 'our job is to be fourth from bottom or better every season'.


its the reality mate. last year can happen, but staying in this league is an achievement in itself for 13 other clubs that are not Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea and Everton

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby jrgbfc » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:28 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:its the reality mate. last year can happen, but staying in this league is an achievement in itself for 13 other clubs that are not Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea and Everton


I'm pretty sure the likes of Everton, West Ham and Wolves have more ambition than finishing 17th every year tbh. So should we, I don't think aiming at mid table and having a good go at the Cups is too unrealistic!

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Longside4evr » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:31 pm

Any good time can't come quick enough when your sitting in the preverble.
The lowest points being Palace and Everton in them games we deserved absolutely nothing.
I thought the turning point to our form was the performance we put in against Liverpool off the back of some very difficult games when the side were virtually licking the grass and heads in toilets.
We have had the Boxing day blues before and it's turned out a positive having our backsides spanked.
It's going to be a test of our character now a draw or the full monty against Watford will really put a buzz back amongst the club and then followed that up with a couple of incomings and we'll be reight

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Clarets4me » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:33 pm

Our aim should be to play at the highest level possible, and to progress the Club, on and off the pitch using the resources available without endangering it's future.

In a post last year, discussing our " natural level & punching above our weight ", I calculated our average League position since Football was restarted after World War 2, and it turned out to be 8th in the Championship.

I and thousands of others had quite enough years of being the " Big fish in the small pond ", from 1984 to 2000, thank you very much ! ;) ;)

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby ChorltonCharlie » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:52 pm

The problem with realistic ambitions is they often get confused with realistic expectations. If we can stay up this season, we can probably say that there's a realistic expectation that we should be able to finish 17th every season. Even that is a tough ask though. The promoted teams will usually see at least one or two carry momentum into the season and usuaully a couple of them will be well backed financially. We saw the latter this season with Wolves and Fulham, and the former with Wolves and to some degree Cardiff. I'm not sure where the realistic expectation is that we SHOULD finish above any of the other 16 though based on cold light of day facts and figures.

We're the only club in the Premier League currently run on income alone. Yes other clubs try and make themselves self-sufficient, but they all have people with huge amounts of money behind them. You could argue that Man United are run on income, but even if they are and don't get any investment they're a club in a different stratosphere to us.

Any expectation we have can only based on doing things as a club we believe in and sticking to our principles. The same beliefs and principles that upset many on here, like being diligent on transfers and not sacking a good manager as soon as it's squeaky bum time.

Of course there can be ambition of finishing much higher, and we showed last year it can be done, but it's confusing the 2 and negativity from fans (when it makes its way to the stands) that puts everything the club has worked for at risk.

Anyone who thinks we should be higher up the table needs to take a look at the financial backing all our rivals have - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_o ... ball_clubs

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Spijed » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 pm

What are the chances of Everton getting relegated?

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:06 pm

I'm pretty sure the likes of Everton, West Ham and Wolves have more ambition than finishing 17th every year tbh. So should we, I don't think aiming at mid table and having a good go at the Cups is too unrealistic!


I specifically mentioned Everton Joey as ones that don't have to worry, but the other 13 do.

Fulham came up expecting to do well. Look at where they are.

No doubt expectations change as the season progresses, but staying in the league is the priority.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Chobulous » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:25 pm

CFS wrote:We played against teams we should of beat anyway.


We played against teams that we should have beaten.
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby 2 Bee Holed » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:33 pm

Chobulous wrote:We played against teams that we should have beaten.


That should of said
'We played against teams that we should have beaten anyway.'

:roll:

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Hedontplayforyou » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:36 pm

Having seen us pick up 3 wins from 3 in the league, with a few key member of the squad injured, id have thought the board would be more willing to back the manager now than any other time this season.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby thatdberight » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:04 pm

2 Bee Holed wrote:'We played against teams that we should have beaten anyway.'


'We played against teams that we should have beaten, anyway.'

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby houseboy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:11 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:its the reality mate. last year can happen, but staying in this league is an achievement in itself for 13 other clubs that are not Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea and Everton


You and Ashington are both completely correct and I cannot argue with either of you. My point, badly put maybe, is what is the value, other than money, of playing in a league where all you want to do is survive and would it be better playing more to our 'level' and maybe just enjoying it more? We used to laugh at the Scottish league where the best option for any team was to finish 3rd now our top division is worse than that unless you are one of the big 6.

As far as the cups are concerned yes, it will be two of the big 6 in the final (unless all Citys squad die before the second semi) but in the past 'smaller' clubs have been in the final and won it and despite Burtons hammering at City they did get to the semis as a league one club. The cups are more 'open' and luck (both in the draw and/or a single game) can get you a long way whereas in a league you always finish where you deserve to.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby CleggHall » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:20 pm

Thank God we lost to Burton when we did, a 9-nil hammering at this stage of the season would have been disastrous. :D

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby ClaretLoup » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:32 pm

thatdberight wrote:'We played against teams that we should have beaten, anyway.'


First time round the team got battered at Fulham, it could have been 10, same at West Ham and they scraped a draw vs Huddersfield.

Maybe they can turn it round vs Watford, Southampton and Palace.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby houseboy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:33 pm

CleggHall wrote:Thank God we lost to Burton when we did, a 9-nil hammering at this stage of the season would have been disastrous. :D

We might have nicked an away goal then it wouldn't have been quite finished. ;)
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby tiger76 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:48 pm

houseboy wrote:You and Ashington are both completely correct and I cannot argue with either of you. My point, badly put maybe, is what is the value, other than money, of playing in a league where all you want to do is survive and would it be better playing more to our 'level' and maybe just enjoying it more? We used to laugh at the Scottish league where the best option for any team was to finish 3rd now our top division is worse than that unless you are one of the big 6.

As far as the cups are concerned yes, it will be two of the big 6 in the final (unless all Citys squad die before the second semi) but in the past 'smaller' clubs have been in the final and won it and despite Burtons hammering at City they did get to the semis as a league one club. The cups are more 'open' and luck (both in the draw and/or a single game) can get you a long way whereas in a league you always finish where you deserve to.


I don't disagree with you houseboy,but that's the reality for half of the current PL teams,Man City are an anomaly in the fact that their 2nd string can hammer anybody outwith the top league,and it's just our luck we've drawn them again in the FA Cup,the League Cup was annoying as we should have buried Burton in the 1st half,and then shipped 2 sloppy goals.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Murger » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:53 pm

9 points from a possible 9 is great. After the way we started the season, it certainly wasn't expected. But we've given ourselves a fighting chance. I just hope Dyche doesn't resort back to hoofball if results turn the other way.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby NRC » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:38 am

thatdberight wrote:'We played against teams that we should have beaten, anyway.'


tsch tsch…..

We played teams we ought to have beaten anyway.

"against" is superfluous
"should have" is subjective, whereas "ought to" is objective, which is your context
there should be no comma after "beaten" because it creates a pause and the effect of creating a link to the next clause
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby thatdberight » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:22 am

NRC wrote:tsch tsch…..

We played teams we ought to have beaten anyway.

"against" is superfluous
"should have" is subjective, whereas "ought to" is objective, which is your context
there should be no comma after "beaten" because it creates a pause and the effect of creating a link to the next clause


I'm not going to pass comment on that ellipsis...

However; yes, "against" is redundant. However, it's not an error; "play against" is a phrasal verb in most dictionaries.
I disagree over "ought"; it can be subjective or objective as I understand it. In this context, I'd be happy with either but I'm interested in your thinking. Please, elaborate.
I believe"anyway", as an appositive, always requires a comma.

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby wickdkewlclaret » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:52 am

I’ve learnt not to expect ANY new signings what so ever. Period.

I’ts the only way to be pleasantly surprised by our transfer dealings.
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby ElectroClaret » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:28 am

We're currently nailing points to the board. Points are what we need to survive, obviously.
So if can only be a good thing, whatever the timing.

UTC. :mrgreen:

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby houseboy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:35 am

tiger76 wrote:I don't disagree with you houseboy,but that's the reality for half of the current PL teams,Man City are an anomaly in the fact that their 2nd string can hammer anybody outwith the top league,and it's just our luck we've drawn them again in the FA Cup,the League Cup was annoying as we should have buried Burton in the 1st half,and then shipped 2 sloppy goals.

One thing is certain mate, I think we might just have given City a tougher work out than Burton, although I shouldn't be saying that with our up-coming cup tie there. I think we might need an early goal. ;)

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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby houseboy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:38 am

Murger wrote:9 points from a possible 9 is great. After the way we started the season, it certainly wasn't expected. But we've given ourselves a fighting chance. I just hope Dyche doesn't resort back to hoofball if results turn the other way.

Before our last 4 league games I said I was hoping for 8/9 points from them. It got off to an utter disaster against Everton but we did achieve the 9 points so I'm delighted.

# 42
Spijed
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Spijed » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:13 am

Looking back, had Tarkowski not blasted the ball over from short range we could have got something from the Everton game as well.

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duncandisorderly
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby duncandisorderly » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:34 am

ChorltonCharlie wrote:
Anyone who thinks we should be higher up the table needs to take a look at the financial backing all our rivals have - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_o ... ball_clubs



That list is just the owners estimated worth. According to that we have about 20% the wealth of Scunthorpe and are only slightly better off than Stevenage.

# 44
gtclaret
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby gtclaret » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:52 pm

I can't believe that any one actually thinks that our recruitment policy is decided by a small handful of results. The squad is thin, short of pace and quality, and we are far from being safe. The only consideration in recruitment is the money available

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keith1879
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby keith1879 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:13 pm

ChorltonCharlie wrote:The problem with realistic ambitions is they often get confused with realistic expectations. If we can stay up this season, we can probably say that there's a realistic expectation that we should be able to finish 17th every season. Even that is a tough ask though. The promoted teams will usually see at least one or two carry momentum into the season and usuaully a couple of them will be well backed financially. We saw the latter this season with Wolves and Fulham, and the former with Wolves and to some degree Cardiff. I'm not sure where the realistic expectation is that we SHOULD finish above any of the other 16 though based on cold light of day facts and figures.

We're the only club in the Premier League currently run on income alone. Yes other clubs try and make themselves self-sufficient, but they all have people with huge amounts of money behind them. You could argue that Man United are run on income, but even if they are and don't get any investment they're a club in a different stratosphere to us.

Any expectation we have can only based on doing things as a club we believe in and sticking to our principles. The same beliefs and principles that upset many on here, like being diligent on transfers and not sacking a good manager as soon as it's squeaky bum time.

Of course there can be ambition of finishing much higher, and we showed last year it can be done, but it's confusing the 2 and negativity from fans (when it makes its way to the stands) that puts everything the club has worked for at risk.

Anyone who thinks we should be higher up the table needs to take a look at the financial backing all our rivals have - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_o ... ball_clubs


Brilliant post that should be obvious ....but sadly it isn't to many. We can have the ambition of getting into the top 10 and even threatening the top 6 .....but if we ever expect that then we will be in big big trouble. Well said ChorltonCharlie.

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bodge
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby bodge » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:36 pm

Belting post CC.

# 47
jurek
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby jurek » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:59 pm

Not quite firmly in our own hands our fate is I think at least within our own grasp
which was difficult to suggest with much confidence 4/5 games ago.

All we have to do is get more points than either Newcastle or Cardiff.
A point at Newcastle and a win at Cardiff at home will go a reasonably long way to achieving that.

I'm certainly more confident of achieving that having just won two 'must win' games.

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Bfcboyo
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Re: Has Our Turn Around In Fortunes Come At A Good Or Bad Time

Postby Bfcboyo » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:47 am

A desperate time.


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