The next Tory Leader..

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Colburn_Claret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:32 pm

aggi wrote:A journalist did ask about it. The response was for Johnson to ignore it and MPs to boo the journalist. What a standard of political discourse we've reached.

If it was news you'd have a point. The fact is it's old news and the question was asked purely to stir the shite. Poor journalism deserves booing.
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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:34 pm

aggi wrote:So it sounds as if you don't think the party needs to move more central (you largely agreed with the policies) just that the leader needs replacing.

I don't think votes for the Greens are because Labour are moving away from the centre, the Greens are to the left of Labour in most policies.


largely agreed with the 2017 manifesto and I thought it was an excellent start for the Corbyn regime. Since then its not been so hot and the more you hear him, the worse he comes across.

I've moved a lot more to the left relatively recently as well though!

But not enough to stop pointing and laughing at Corbynistas. And I'm still pretty right wing in a few things.

If they removed him and replaced him with Starmer or even McDonnell I'd be more inclined to support them but I also remember Abbott (sorry Diane, but you are not up to it), Gardner and Burgon are part of his team and my enthusiasm withers.

Think Green votes are coming mainly from the centre and right as people don't look much past the "Green" bit (Mrs LC voted Green in the last GE and she's never going to vote anything other than Conservative)

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:36 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:If it was news you'd have a point. The fact is it's old news and the question was asked purely to stir the shite. Poor journalism deserves booing.


He's going to be PM. Of course the question was relevant.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Colburn_Claret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:41 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:He's going to be PM. Of course the question was relevant.

How? The question was raised and answered years ago, does the journalist think the answer has changed over the years........It was relevant then, not now.
If some people think that they don't want a PM who has admitted to past demeanours, that's up to them, but mud raking for the sake of it doesn't add anything to the debate of who should lead the Tories.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:42 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:How? The question was raised and answered years ago, does the journalist think the answer has changed over the years........It was relevant then, not now.
If some people think that they don't want a PM who has admitted to past demeanours, that's up to them, but mud raking for the sake of it doesn't add anything to the debate of who should lead the Tories.


You do know he's never apologised for it, and he didn't yesterday either.

Now why do you think that is?

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Colburn_Claret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:00 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You do know he's never apologised for it, and he didn't yesterday either.

Now why do you think that is?

Maybe he thinks that he was so young when he did it that it isn't necessary to apologise.

Most people have made mistakes in their lives, you don't go around apologising for them for the rest of your life, you move on.
I tried drugs when I was younger, it's not something I'm proud of, but I'm not ashamed either, it's just a fact. It doesn't define the person I am today.

The only relevant question is what plans Boris has for the country should he win the contest and become the next PM.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:06 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Maybe he thinks that he was so young when he did it that it isn't necessary to apologise.

Most people have made mistakes in their lives, you don't go around apologising for them for the rest of your life, you move on.
I tried drugs when I was younger, it's not something I'm proud of, but I'm not ashamed either, it's just a fact. It doesn't define the person I am today.

The only relevant question is what plans Boris has for the country should he win the contest and become the next PM.


Hang on a sec.

Drugs are another no/no if you are going to be PM (not my opinion by the way, but if you are going to ban teachers for taking cocaine (ie Gove) then you can't be PM as well (Johnson has taken it as well)

So a question that was offensive to a minority of UK citizens (and he was) then yesterday was a golden chance for him to apologise for it.

He didn't, and actually said it was ok to say, resulting in applause and jeering of the journalist.

Thats far more worrying and relevant than how he's going square the Brexit question (which will be a variant of Mays deal btw)

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby CombatClaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:08 pm

Round 1

All 313 Tory MPs voted. There were no spoilt ballot papers.

Boris Johnson - 114
Jeremy Hunt - 43
Michael Gove - 37
Dominic Raab - 27
Sajid Javid - 23
Matt Hancock - 20
Mark Harper - 10
Rory Stewart - 19
Esther McVey - 9
Andrea Leadsom - 11

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby AndyClaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:09 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Hang on a sec.

Drugs are another no/no if you are going to be PM (not my opinion by the way, but if you are going to ban teachers for taking cocaine (ie Gove) then you can't be PM as well (Johnson has taken it as well)

So a question that was offensive to a minority of UK citizens (and he was) then yesterday was a golden chance for him to apologise for it.

He didn't, and actually said it was ok to say, resulting in applause and jeering of the journalist.

Thats far more worrying and relevant than how he's going square the Brexit question (which will be a variant of Mays deal btw)



So when the journalist said "you've disgraced your party", was this a fact or a personal opinion ? also towards the end of the answer he said if his language had offended anyone then he apologised.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Bordeauxclaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:11 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:If it was news you'd have a point. The fact is it's old news and the question was asked purely to stir the shite. Poor journalism deserves booing.



Great news for Corbyn in the next election then.
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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:13 pm

AndyClaret wrote:So when the journalist said "you've disgraced your party", was this a fact or a personal opinion ? also towards the end of the answer he said if his language had offended anyone then he apologised.


Fact I think.

Its a disgrace to use that sort of language as PM candidate, because words have real effects.

And it wasn't an apology for saying it, was it?

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Foshiznik » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:17 pm

If you can't be PM if you've taken drugs then that counts out at least 98% of them.
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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby AndyClaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:26 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Fact I think.

Its a disgrace to use that sort of language as PM candidate, because words have real effects.

And it wasn't an apology for saying it, was it?


It's conjecture, not fact. It didn't offend me so he only has to apologise to the delicate flowers that it did offend.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby If it be your will » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:31 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Round 1

All 313 Tory MPs voted. There were no spoilt ballot papers.

Boris Johnson - 114
Jeremy Hunt - 43
Michael Gove - 37
Dominic Raab - 27
Sajid Javid - 23
Matt Hancock - 20
Mark Harper - 10
Rory Stewart - 19
Esther McVey - 9
Andrea Leadsom - 11

From that it's almost impossible to imagine Boris won't make the last 2 for the members' vote. He'd have to actively lose votes.

So it's Boris for PM, then.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby elwaclaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:42 pm

Certainly looking like Boris strategy has worked a treat... waiting for the grand entrance. It wouldn’t surprise me if the drugs question was there as a plant... the question was asked and shouted down... won’t be brought up again unmanaged now.

Certainly a good day for Boris. Another today and it could be a formality.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby aggi » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:48 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:If it was news you'd have a point. The fact is it's old news and the question was asked purely to stir the shite. Poor journalism deserves booing.


Given that there have been multiple stories in the past week about leadership candidates and historic cocaine use it seems a pretty reasonable question to me.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby HieronymousBoschHobs » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:49 pm

Corbyn has struggled because he's an outsider in the parliamentary party, and any attempt to wrest control of it has been met with significant resistance. He's also made very little attempt to placate the legacy media, who are more than happy to give a platform to the various discontented MPs who know they will never hold a position of influence while Corbyn is at the helm. All of this adds up to an image of chaos and incompetence. In my view, the Brexit saga would have been a challenge for any Labour leader given the split in the party's base, but given that he was already unpopular among his own MPs, I think it will probably prove his undoing. A real shame, because some Macron-style pro-European won't solve the long-term problems this country faces, and won't quell the populist right.

Lancasterclaret wrote:Both parties have decided to veer towards their core support, but that alienates the centre. Thats why change uk formed (just because they messed it up doesn't change the fact that they saw the votes there) and thats why the Lib Dems and Greens surged.


Where is the centre ground in UK politics at present? If the political axis is defined by the Brexit issue, which the Lib Dems and Change UK surely believe it is, then they can hardly be said to be in the centre: they are avowedly pro-Remain, and hence extremely partisan. If it isn't, then why have these parties only picked up votes from Labour (or, in Change UK's case, come into existence) since the Brexit process has started?

The centre-ground as it's employed in political rhetoric is a complete con: people will be more attracted to a view that's called moderate than a view that's called extreme, so it makes sense to define one's own views as moderate - even though in another's eyes they may be anything but. True centrist politics requires an overlapping consensus between various political factions, essentially a shared set of assumptions about how things should be done. We have essentially had that for the past twenty or thirty years since both main parties have accepted social and economic liberalism, and this has been true in most parts of the Western world. However, that consensus has evidently broken down: the right has begun to turn against social liberalism, and the left has begun to turn against economic liberalism. This divide can be seen starkly in the US. People like Chuka Umunna are, on my view, completely out-of-step with political reality in thinking that the electorate is crying out for true centrist politicians. He and others like him represent the real 'Old Labour'.

Brexit has muddied the waters because although it is not strictly a left-right issue, it has manifested itself as a populist right-wing movement. Consequently, it is virulently rejected by both establishment centrists and anti-establishment leftists. Naturally though, the two are not comfortable bed-fellows. Remaining in the EU, which is looking increasingly unlikely, might gift the old guard a honeymoon period but we would quickly fall back to where we were pre-Brexit because the entire phenomenon is but one prominent symptom of a deeper split in Western political culture.
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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Colburn_Claret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:54 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Hang on a sec.

Drugs are another no/no if you are going to be PM (not my opinion by the way, but if you are going to ban teachers for taking cocaine (ie Gove) then you can't be PM as well (Johnson has taken it as well)

So a question that was offensive to a minority of UK citizens (and he was) then yesterday was a golden chance for him to apologise for it.

He didn't, and actually said it was ok to say, resulting in applause and jeering of the journalist.

Thats far more worrying and relevant than how he's going square the Brexit question (which will be a variant of Mays deal btw)

We aren't electing a 20 year old university snot, we're looking for a leader for a political party.
IMO, I couldn't give a **** what he did in the past, so long as it is in the past.
If people were going to punish me for the rest of my life, for my past mistakes, how unfair would that be. Myself at 18 and myself today are two completely different people. Lifes mistakes have taught me many things, made me wiser for the experience, why shouldn't the same hold true for Boris.
If you think the only people fit to run the country are people who've never made a mistake in their life, or worse still someone who has never experienced life, it's going to be a very limited field.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:13 pm

AndyClaret wrote:It's conjecture, not fact. It didn't offend me so he only has to apologise to the delicate flowers that it did offend.


Ah, its snowflakey because someone mentioned it was racist.

I'm not shocked that is your position.

No one is.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:15 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:We aren't electing a 20 year old university snot, we're looking for a leader for a political party.
IMO, I couldn't give a **** what he did in the past, so long as it is in the past.
If people were going to punish me for the rest of my life, for my past mistakes, how unfair would that be. Myself at 18 and myself today are two completely different people. Lifes mistakes have taught me many things, made me wiser for the experience, why shouldn't the same hold true for Boris.
If you think the only people fit to run the country are people who've never made a mistake in their life, or worse still someone who has never experienced life, it's going to be a very limited field.


Who said anything about electing a 20 year old?

I want a honest, capable leader who can unite the whole country. I don't want one who thinks its ok to smear a minority to get the votes of the absolute bellends who love that kind of stuff.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby AndyClaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:02 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Ah, its snowflakey because someone mentioned it was racist.

I'm not shocked that is your position.

No one is.


Why's it racist ? Yasmin I'm aliar Brown would ban the Burka, is she racist too ?

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:07 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Why's it racist ? Yasmin I'm aliar Brown would ban the Burka, is she racist too ?


Thats not what he said is he?

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby AndyClaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:11 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Thats not what he said is he?


He was making the point that they shouldn't be worn in public buildings, and he's right.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Steve1956 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:16 pm

It's in the bag Boris....god fu**ing help us all :(
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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Lancasterclaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:35 pm

AndyClaret wrote:He was making the point that they shouldn't be worn in public buildings, and he's right.


I'm sure you think he's right Andy. Its not exactly a shock.

Now we are slowly getting to what he said and why it might be problematic.

Come on Andy! You can do it! You can actually put what he said on here! Using his exact words!

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby tiger76 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:37 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Round 1

All 313 Tory MPs voted. There were no spoilt ballot papers.

Boris Johnson - 114
Jeremy Hunt - 43
Michael Gove - 37
Dominic Raab - 27
Sajid Javid - 23
Matt Hancock - 20
Mark Harper - 10
Rory Stewart - 19
Esther McVey - 9
Andrea Leadsom - 11


Leadsom,Harper,and McVey eliminated,it's looking good for Boris just now,but the TV debates could throw up some surprises.C4 have the first debate on Sunday,if BoJo bothers to show up.If he doesn't he'll be empty-chaired,and seen to be ducking the challenge,never a great look.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-leadership-channel-4-could-16511298

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-leadership-election-timetable-full-16267006

Plenty of TV debates that's for sure,shame you can't vote for Larry the cat. :)

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby cblantfanclub » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:50 pm

The next leader of this country will be decided by an electorate of 125,000 the debate etc. is almost irrelevant as most have no say. Democracy?

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby AndyClaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:02 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm sure you think he's right Andy. Its not exactly a shock.

Now we are slowly getting to what he said and why it might be problematic.

Come on Andy! You can do it! You can actually put what he said on here! Using his exact words!


People shouldn't be able to go around universities looking like bank robbers

Happy now ?

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby jrgbfc » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:07 pm

cblantfanclub wrote:The next leader of this country will be decided by an electorate of 125,000 the debate etc. is almost irrelevant as most have no say. Democracy?


125,000 well off, middle aged/elderly people from the Home Counties.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby AndyClaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:09 pm

jrgbfc wrote:125,000 well off, middle aged/elderly people from the Home Counties.


Stone them.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby CombatClaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:10 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Stone them.


A large part of the debate was how stoned the candidates have been.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby dsr » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:13 pm

cblantfanclub wrote:The next leader of this country will be decided by an electorate of 125,000 the debate etc. is almost irrelevant as most have no say. Democracy?

The PM has an electorate of 649, actually. 7 of whom refuse to take part. The 125,000 are electing the leader of the Tory party, but this particular referendum (as far as appointing the PM goes) is genuinely advisory.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby AndyClaret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:14 pm

Latest figures are 160k members.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby RingoMcCartney » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:14 pm

jrgbfc wrote:125,000 well off, middle aged/elderly people from the Home Counties.


To be fair, it's 124,999 more than got to choose who was to be the next Prime Minister after Tony Bliar.

The one and only person who got to vote for Gordon Brown was,









Tony Bliar.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby martin_p » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:49 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:To be fair, it's 124,999 more than got to choose who was to be the next Prime Minister after Tony Bliar.

The one and only person who got to vote for Gordon Brown was,









Tony Bliar.


Not true. John McDonnell put himself forward as leader but was overwhelmingly beaten in the Labour Party leader process when he didn’t receive enough nominations from Labour MPs (it was something like 300 to 30 to Brown). So as with Theresa May it was the MPs that made Brown PM.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby RingoMcCartney » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:45 pm

martin_p wrote:Not true. John McDonnell put himself forward as leader but was overwhelmingly beaten in the Labour Party leader process when he didn’t receive enough nominations from Labour MPs (it was something like 300 to 30 to Brown). So as with Theresa May it was the MPs that made Brown PM.


Approximately 130k/160k ,depends on the source , will choose from 2 candidates for tory leader.

From Wikipedia-

Blair said he expected Gordon Brown to succeed him, and that Brown "would make an excellent Prime Minister". When nominations for the leadership elections opened, Blair was one of those nominating Brown.[6] From the start, most observers considered Brown the overwhelming favourite to succeed Blair; John McDonnell, his only challenger, failed to secure enough nominations in order to get onto the ballot, and conceded defeat.[7] Brown received 313 (88.2%) nominations to McDonnell's 29 (8.2%), making it mathematically impossible for anyone other than Brown to be nominated.

The election process concluded with Brown being declared leader at a special conference on 24 June 2007. On 27 June, Blair resigned as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and was succeeded by Brown.[8]


 In 2007, Tony Blair resigned as Prime Minister and Labour Leader and Brown was chosen to replace him in an uncontested election.



What I said in my previous post was shorthand for the above. No election , Bliars Choice was a done deal

You will no doubt disagree. Make no mistake, I couldn't care less.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby FactualFrank » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:34 pm

If only there were some kind of reference point we could use for the consequences of allowing an incoherent, racist, straw-headed, misogynist buffoon to run a country.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Colburn_Claret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:08 pm

FactualFrank wrote:If only there were some kind of reference point we could use for the consequences of allowing an incoherent, racist, straw-headed, misogynist buffoon to run a country.

You dont hear people across the water complaining about Trump. Hes everything you state, but the people who elected him are more than happy. Apart from the wall in Mexico, hes delivered what he said he would, so as far as they are concerned the consequences are great.
Sad, but true.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby aggi » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:17 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:You dont hear people across the water complaining about Trump. Hes everything you state, but the people who elected him are more than happy. Apart from the wall in Mexico, hes delivered what he said he would, so as far as they are concerned the consequences are great.
Sad, but true.


Well the people who elected him are more than happy but that is a lot different to "You dont hear people across the water complaining about Trump"

I've heard plenty complain when I've been out there.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:22 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:You dont hear people across the water complaining about Trump. Hes everything you state, but the people who elected him are more than happy. Apart from the wall in Mexico, hes delivered what he said he would, so as far as they are concerned the consequences are great.
Sad, but true.


:lol:

you've got no ******* clue.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Colburn_Claret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:59 pm

aggi wrote:Well the people who elected him are more than happy but that is a lot different to "You dont hear people across the water complaining about Trump"

I've heard plenty complain when I've been out there.

A bit like Brexit, the only ones complaining are the ones who lost. He made promises to those who did vote for him, and as I said, apart from the wall hes delivered.
I'm not a fan of his in any way, hes upset a lot of people all around the world, but he wasnt elected to make the rest of the world happy.
Too many people are wrapped up in this personality politics.
Would you rather have someone you dont like doing a good job, or someone you like doing a **** job? Rather like football it's a results business, and if a politician delivers, who gives a toss if hes got a nice personality.
Which all goes back to the original point and Boris and his drug taking. I'm not a fan of Boris either, but the fact that he took drugs when he was a youngster, doesn't make him incapable of being a good politician or a good PM, that's purely down to his policies.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Colburn_Claret » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:04 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote::lol:

you've got no ******* clue.

You're the one in need of a mirror.
You decide what you dont like or who you dont like, then look for any evidence you can find to convince yourself you're right.
You're incapable of looking at any topic objectively, because once you've picked your horse, nothing is going to change your mind. Blinkered.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Spijed » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:11 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Which all goes back to the original point and Boris and his drug taking. I'm not a fan of Boris either, but the fact that he took drugs when he was a youngster, doesn't make him incapable of being a good politician or a good PM, that's purely down to his policies.


But beware of Boris and what he says about his success as London Mayor. He wasted millions on vanity projects that have no added worth, such as the cable car and new route master buses.
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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby aggi » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:41 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:A bit like Brexit, the only ones complaining are the ones who lost. He made promises to those who did vote for him, and as I said, apart from the wall hes delivered.
I'm not a fan of his in any way, hes upset a lot of people all around the world, but he wasnt elected to make the rest of the world happy.
Too many people are wrapped up in this personality politics.
Would you rather have someone you dont like doing a good job, or someone you like doing a **** job? Rather like football it's a results business, and if a politician delivers, who gives a toss if hes got a nice personality.
Which all goes back to the original point and Boris and his drug taking. I'm not a fan of Boris either, but the fact that he took drugs when he was a youngster, doesn't make him incapable of being a good politician or a good PM, that's purely down to his policies.


There are a lot who didn't vote for him though (more actually voted for Clinton than Trump).

Whether it be Brexit, Trump or whatever, ******* off half of your country isn't a good way to run it.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:52 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:You're the one in need of a mirror.
You decide what you dont like or who you dont like, then look for any evidence you can find to convince yourself you're right.
You're incapable of looking at any topic objectively, because once you've picked your horse, nothing is going to change your mind. Blinkered.


Wow. All i said is that you didn't know what you were talking about.

You're right, there are people I don't like. And you're right, I do try to convince myself that i'm right, or a more accurate terminology would be that i try to convince myself that my argument is right. How i do this is I look for evidence, and if i find good, solid evidence that supports my argument i then look for evidence that contradicts that evidence. And if i can't find any solid evidence that contradicts my argument then I am convinced i'm right and then i present my argument as and when it's appropriate to do so. Do you not go through this process to ensure you're not full of ****?

Sometimes, believe it or not, when i'm looking for evidence to convince me i'm right i find contradictory evidence first, and if i can't find supporting evidence then i change my opinion. Do you not change your opinions?

This is why it looks like i don't change my mind very often on here, because i don't have, I've already done the legwork and have confidence in my argument, which is why i present it to others.

If you think i don't like you, or others, then chances are you're wrong but more likely you are just misinterpreting the irritation i express at the number of dumb ***** on here who don't bother to verify the facts they share, and then when they are proven completely wrong still don't change their views. I don't like those people. Are you one of those people? I don't know.

Anyway, i speak with Americans every day. I consume a lot of their news, i read their polls. If you think Trump isn't widely disliked and that the only people complaining about him are those who lost, if you think he's delivered anything substantive (please, name an example) on which he campaigned, then you haven't got a ******* clue what you're talking about.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Colburn_Claret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:15 am

Spijed wrote:But beware of Boris and what he says about his success as London Mayor. He wasted millions on vanity projects that have no added worth, such as the cable car and new route master buses.

I'm not a Boris fan, and accept he could be a crap PM. That wasnt the point. It's the idea that anyone, whoever made a mistake, or broke a rule or law in his life, isnt fit to run the country. To me they are two completely different issues.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Imploding Turtle » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:22 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:...


Here you go

https://thinkprogress.org/the-internal- ... dd00413f1/

If Trump was still adored by those who voted for him (where it mattered) then he wouldn't be under so much water in his own internal polls that he has to lie about their very existence.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby tiger76 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:40 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Here you go

https://thinkprogress.org/the-internal- ... dd00413f1/

If Trump was still adored by those who voted for him (where it mattered) then he wouldn't be under so much water in his own internal polls that he has to lie about their very existence.


Trump's approval ratings are dire,but a lot depends on which Democrat he's facing in 2020,i think we can assume the Republicans will select him again,Elizabeth Warren is the stand-out candidate,if Bernie Sanders was only 10 years younger he'd be a good shout,his appeal would be crucial in the rust-belt states Trump will need to defend,what the Democrats don't want to do is become complacent,and they'll need to turnout perspective supporters,on paper any Democrat nominee would be favourite,but that's what Hilary's team thought in 2016,it's dangerous to write Donald off just yet,like Corbyn he's effective on the campaign trail.

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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Colburn_Claret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:42 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Here you go

https://thinkprogress.org/the-internal- ... dd00413f1/

If Trump was still adored by those who voted for him (where it mattered) then he wouldn't be under so much water in his own internal polls that he has to lie about their very existence.

If genuine I bow to the facts, it isnt what I'd heard but accept I have no way of proving otherwise.
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Re: The next Tory Leader..

Postby Imploding Turtle » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:24 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:If genuine I bow to the facts, it isnt what I'd heard but accept I have no way of proving otherwise.



You don't really need to look at months-old opinion polls to see how unpopular Trump is, you just need to look at the mid-term results from last year.

But if you want more reliable polling than months-old internal polling then [url="https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx"]Gallup's[/url] a very reliable source. His approval ratings have never gone above 50%, which on it's own is a ridiculous fact. Even Obama at this time in his presidency (May 2010), and after his party got rogered in the 2010 mid-terms, was at 50% approval. Trump is sitting at 40%, and that's about his average. Amusingly (to me) he was more popular immediately after the mid-terms in November that he spectacularly and overwhelmingly lost.

For context, when Obama was re-elected in 2012 he won a pretty close election. Not razor-thin, but it was still uncertain on the night. He won the popular vote in that election by 3.9% and at the time his approval rating was 52%. George Bush won re-election by a thinner margin than Obama (2.4% popular vote, and he would have lost had his campaign no managed to successfully lie about Kerry's military record) and his approval rating was 48%, and that 48% was among his lowest approval ratings at the time.
Not only is 48% not low for Trump, it isn't even a high for Trump. He's never once reached 48% approval in any of Gallup's polling. If Trump's approval rating is still at about 40%, which is his average for his entire presidency (so there's no reason to expect it won't be), and when you consider how turnout is just going to explode next year (as it did in last years midterms, helping Democrats) then Trump and his party are staring down the barrel at biggest Democratic Party landslide there's ever been in America.

Trump can still win though. It will require one of two things. Either he suddenly gets competent at his job in time for the public to notice that he has become competent, and they decide to give him a second chance. Or it will require an even bigger and more blatant attack on American democracy than what happened in 2016. And the Republicans are paving a way for the latter blocking legislation requiring campaigns to report foreign election assistance, by blocking legislation to increase the security of elections from foreign interference, and openly inviting foreign interference.

Here's the Gallup website so you know i'm not full of **** :)
Trump's approval polls: https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/pre ... trump.aspx
Other presidents: https://news.gallup.com/interactives/18 ... enter.aspx


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