General Election Is On

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Clarets4me
Posts: 2770
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 1355 times
Has Liked: 569 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Clarets4me » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:49 pm

aggi wrote:There's so much actual stuff that you can attack Corbyn with and yet you still opt for the stuff you've just made up.

How do you reconcile your views on politicians and terrorists with the Brexit party's MEP for Burnley supporting the IRA bombings in Warrington? Is it ok so long as they support Brexit?

To be fair, " aggi ", the party list system used in the European Elections does not allow a supporter to vote for any one particular Candidate, one of it's major faults, that run's counter to Britain's political tradition ..

I think we've all looked at things our favoured parties have done over the years, and thought " Jesus wept " !!

Paul Waine
Posts: 5251
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 1238 times
Has Liked: 1492 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:56 pm

martin_p wrote:Sorry but I’m really not that dull. Monty Python had it right about accountants!
Hi martin, I know, I didn't want to train as an accountant - and as I said I don't work as an accountant, haven't done for many years - but there were no openings when I left college to become a lion trainer. I'm still hoping, either lion trainer, or I can work with tigers and maybe other big cats.

So, tax is dull for you? And, there's JC/JMcD making it the number one priority in their manifesto.

Have a great evening.

Paul Waine
Posts: 5251
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 1238 times
Has Liked: 1492 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:03 am

Re Jeremy Corbyn and the IRA, what I don't get, if you are working for peace, why do you choose to invite IRA representatives to meet you in HoC a short time after the government, which you had always opposed, had been bombed by the IRA (yes, IRA/prov IRA/other IRA groups, whichever that was at the time)?

And, how did that look to UK military who were serving in N.Ireland at the time?

martin_p
Posts: 5474
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1877 times
Has Liked: 440 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:07 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi martin, I know, I didn't want to train as an accountant - and as I said I don't work as an accountant, haven't done for many years - but there were no openings when I left college to become a lion trainer. I'm still hoping, either lion trainer, or I can work with tigers and maybe other big cats.

So, tax is dull for you? And, there's JC/JMcD making it the number one priority in their manifesto.

Have a great evening.
Calculating it certainly is. Besides I’m not doing all the grunt work of working out tax when you’ve made your calculation so easy by not being VAT registered, especially when there seem to be a lot of VAT deductible expenses which is another great tax avoidance ruse contractors and consultants can use.

martin_p
Posts: 5474
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1877 times
Has Liked: 440 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:08 am

Paul Waine wrote:Re Jeremy Corbyn and the IRA, what I don't get, if you are working for peace, why do you choose to invite IRA representatives to meet you in HoC a short time after the government, which you had always opposed, had been bombed by the IRA (yes, IRA/prov IRA/other IRA groups, whichever that was at the time)?

And, how did that look to UK military who were serving in N.Ireland at the time?
How else do you work for peace?

AndrewJB
Posts: 2402
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 851 times
Has Liked: 572 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:22 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi martin, I know, I didn't want to train as an accountant - and as I said I don't work as an accountant, haven't done for many years - but there were no openings when I left college to become a lion trainer. I'm still hoping, either lion trainer, or I can work with tigers and maybe other big cats.

So, tax is dull for you? And, there's JC/JMcD making it the number one priority in their manifesto.

Have a great evening.
Labour want to tax the rich more, and alleviate the great distress many of our citizens find themselves in due to austerity. This is realistic and laudable. It's also better for the economy, because the extra pound in the pocket of a poor person goes into the local economy, whereas the extra pound in a rich person's pocket could well end up in the Cayman Islands.

Labour also want to bring back under public ownership; the rail system, utilities, our national broadband network, and Royal Mail. These are all things we've owned in the past (telephones for broadband), and are now weighing the country down with high prices and bad service. So doing this is laudable too.

Why nitpick over tax changes when the overall movement is in a positive direction?

AndrewJB
Posts: 2402
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 851 times
Has Liked: 572 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:30 am

Paul Waine wrote:Re Jeremy Corbyn and the IRA, what I don't get, if you are working for peace, why do you choose to invite IRA representatives to meet you in HoC a short time after the government, which you had always opposed, had been bombed by the IRA (yes, IRA/prov IRA/other IRA groups, whichever that was at the time)?

And, how did that look to UK military who were serving in N.Ireland at the time?
Ask yourself why Thatcher's government spoke to them through that period. Because talking gets further than violence.

How would that have gone down with serving soldiers, had they known at the time? Bear in mind Thatcher was talking to the IRA, not Sinn Fein (who Corbyn was speaking with).

Paul Waine
Posts: 5251
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 1238 times
Has Liked: 1492 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:33 am

martin_p wrote:Calculating it certainly is. Besides I’m not doing all the grunt work of working out tax when you’ve made your calculation so easy by not being VAT registered, especially when there seem to be a lot of VAT deductible expenses which is another great tax avoidance ruse contractors and consultants can use.
martin, I think you are just trying to wind me up? No?

Let's add VAT to the numbers: revenue £70,000 + VAT (at 20%) £14,000 - Total £84,000.

VAT charged on the expenses I mentioned; Add £200 to lawyer fees of £1,000. Do the same to the other fees, add 20%.

Now, I know you know how to complete a VAT return (you do, don't you?).

VAT on sales this quarter/year (let's assume we can roll it all up into 4 quarters and do return as 1 year): VAT collected £14,000.

VAT on inputs, let's say that this comes to £600 (I haven't checked back to all expenses figures, but let's assume that one or two weren't registered for VAT, and so those expenses didn't charge VAT).

Let's also assume that the entertainment expenses include VAT in the £500 (I should have chosen £600, I guess you will understand why...), so £500 = £X + 20%, let's call it £417 + VAT £83.

But, you already know this, HMRC don't let you reclaim VAT incurred on entertainment expenses. So, we didn't need to do that calc.

Hint: when you are calculating P&L and tax due - whichever way you chose to treat wages or dividends - entertainment is not an allowable expense to include in your tax due calc.

So, let's complete your "another great tax avoidance ruse contractors and consultants can use."

VAT collected on sales £14,000, VAT paid to other VAT registered organisations £600. Therefore, VAT payable to HMRC £13,400.

It's a great tax avoidance ruse. You receive £14,000 VAT, you pay out £600 VAT and you pay the rest to the government.

To be fair, there used to be some slightly more favourable rules for the "little guys" - but these were got rid of a couple of years back. But, if you were using these arrangements, they were the ones that the government had set up. So far as I'm aware paying the tax that the government has said is due has never been "a great tax avoidance ruse..."

I will sleep well tonight.

Damo
Posts: 3350
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:04 pm
Been Liked: 1293 times
Has Liked: 1984 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Damo » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:37 am

#Votetactially is trending on twitter.

I thought it was Brexiteers who were a bit thick, and couldn't spell

martin_p
Posts: 5474
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1877 times
Has Liked: 440 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:39 am

Paul Waine wrote:martin, I think you are just trying to wind me up? No?

Let's add VAT to the numbers: revenue £70,000 + VAT (at 20%) £14,000 - Total £84,000.

VAT charged on the expenses I mentioned; Add £200 to lawyer fees of £1,000. Do the same to the other fees, add 20%.

Now, I know you know how to complete a VAT return (you do, don't you?).

VAT on sales this quarter/year (let's assume we can roll it all up into 4 quarters and do return as 1 year): VAT collected £14,000.

VAT on inputs, let's say that this comes to £600 (I haven't checked back to all expenses figures, but let's assume that one or two weren't registered for VAT, and so those expenses didn't charge VAT).

Let's also assume that the entertainment expenses include VAT in the £500 (I should have chosen £600, I guess you will understand why...), so £500 = £X + 20%, let's call it £417 + VAT £83.

But, you already know this, HMRC don't let you reclaim VAT incurred on entertainment expenses. So, we didn't need to do that calc.

Hint: when you are calculating P&L and tax due - whichever way you chose to treat wages or dividends - entertainment is not an allowable expense to include in your tax due calc.

So, let's complete your "another great tax avoidance ruse contractors and consultants can use."

VAT collected on sales £14,000, VAT paid to other VAT registered organisations £600. Therefore, VAT payable to HMRC £13,400.

It's a great tax avoidance ruse. You receive £14,000 VAT, you pay out £600 VAT and you pay the rest to the government.

To be fair, there used to be some slightly more favourable rules for the "little guys" - but these were got rid of a couple of years back. But, if you were using these arrangements, they were the ones that the government had set up. So far as I'm aware paying the tax that the government has said is due has never been "a great tax avoidance ruse..."

I will sleep well tonight.
So in summary he is £600 better off than he would be if he wasn’t VAT registered. Unless you’re trying to tell me he doesn’t have to pay VAT on all his expenses if he isn’t VAT registered.

aggi
Posts: 4797
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 1142 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:09 am

Damo wrote:#Votetactially is trending on twitter.

I thought it was Brexiteers who were a bit thick, and couldn't spell
Looks like that hashtag has been used about as many times as #JohnsonTheCoward but #BorisJohnsonIsAMelt is much more popular.

aggi
Posts: 4797
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 1142 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:12 am

Clarets4me wrote:To be fair, " aggi ", the party list system used in the European Elections does not allow a supporter to vote for any one particular Candidate, one of it's major faults, that run's counter to Britain's political tradition ..

I think we've all looked at things our favoured parties have done over the years, and thought " Jesus wept " !!
That's true (although whether that is a good or bad thing depends on your view) but I'd have thought that if Lowbank was as against politicians supporting terrorists as he is making out then he wouldn't be out there campaigning for them. Or even if he felt the party was bigger than the individual he'd still condemn them in the same terms.

Paul Waine
Posts: 5251
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 1238 times
Has Liked: 1492 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:19 pm

martin_p wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:39 am
So in summary he is £600 better off than he would be if he wasn’t VAT registered. Unless you’re trying to tell me he doesn’t have to pay VAT on all his expenses if he isn’t VAT registered.
What was the question, again?

OK, got it now. You were saying that registering for VAT and collecting said VAT for gov't (and the tax payer) is a "great VAT tax ruse" by contractors and consultants.

Well, no, not a "ruse" - if the expenses are properly business related and you go to the trouble of registering for VAT to collect taxes for HMRC, then you are allowed to deduct the VAT that you've paid out.
Last edited by Paul Waine on Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dermotdermot
Posts: 1904
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 354 times
Has Liked: 152 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by dermotdermot » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:29 pm

Ah yes, of course, the general election. With this board going down, I’d forgotten all about it.

Paul Waine
Posts: 5251
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 1238 times
Has Liked: 1492 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:36 pm

dermotdermot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:29 pm
Ah yes, of course, the general election. With this board going down, I’d forgotten all about it.
Do we know who won? or has it gone to VAR? ;)

dsr
Posts: 8846
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 2670 times
Has Liked: 1144 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:39 pm

martin_p wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:39 am
So in summary he is £600 better off than he would be if he wasn’t VAT registered. Unless you’re trying to tell me he doesn’t have to pay VAT on all his expenses if he isn’t VAT registered.
VAT Registered: receive £84,000, pay £6,500 expenses + £600 VAT, pay £13,400 to HMRC. Net profit before income tax £63,500.
Not VAT registered: receive £84,000, pay £6,500 expenses + £600 VAT, but nothing to HMRC. Net profit before income tax £76,900.

Tell me again how VAT registration is a tax fiddle?

(Obviously you can validly argue that most of a consultant's income is to other VAT-registered businesses, so he wouldn't receive the £84k if he wasn't VAT registered. But that's the point of VAT - it is supposed to be tax-neutral for businesses, it's just a way of collecting tax from the ultimate consumer. Replace "consultant" with "joiner" or any other tradesman who deals mostly with the general public, and you will see the huge advantage of not being VAT registered.)

dermotdermot
Posts: 1904
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 354 times
Has Liked: 152 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by dermotdermot » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:45 pm

Well it’s cracking on a bit. Diane Abbott has tried to no avail to keep the news of her son’s arrest for assaulting two policemen and a care worker out of the news. Corbyn has pledged to open Downing Street and Chequers to homeless people and refugees and has let it slip that he plans to cuddle up and watch the Queens Christmas message early on Christmas morning even though it won’t be aired until three in the afternoon.

martin_p
Posts: 5474
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1877 times
Has Liked: 440 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:12 pm

dsr wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:39 pm
VAT Registered: receive £84,000, pay £6,500 expenses + £600 VAT, pay £13,400 to HMRC. Net profit before income tax £63,500.
Not VAT registered: receive £84,000, pay £6,500 expenses + £600 VAT, but nothing to HMRC. Net profit before income tax £76,900.

Tell me again how VAT registration is a tax fiddle?

(Obviously you can validly argue that most of a consultant's income is to other VAT-registered businesses, so he wouldn't receive the £84k if he wasn't VAT registered. But that's the point of VAT - it is supposed to be tax-neutral for businesses, it's just a way of collecting tax from the ultimate consumer. Replace "consultant" with "joiner" or any other tradesman who deals mostly with the general public, and you will see the huge advantage of not being VAT registered.)
You’ve answered your own question, he only receives £70k if he isn’t VAT registered so the net profit is less than if he was.

I work in a standard PAYE job, how do I get the VAT back on the 170 miles a day I travel to/from work?

dsr
Posts: 8846
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 2670 times
Has Liked: 1144 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:20 pm

martin_p wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:12 pm
You’ve answered your own question, he only receives £70k if he isn’t VAT registered so the net profit is less than if he was.

I work in a standard PAYE job, how do I get the VAT back on the 170 miles a day I travel to/from work?
Simple answer - you gp self=employed. You set up in business for yourself, so you have the joy of finding your own work instead of relying on your employer, and are free of such things like sick pay when you're ill and paid holidays.

You've chosen to work in regular employment 170 miles from home where you can't claim VAT back on your petrol. Your choice. If you don't like that choice, choose something else. The fact that some people continue to choose self-employment, while others (like you and me) do not, suggests that the balance between self-employed and employed status is something that has its plusses and minuses and neither one is wildly advantageous over the other. Which means that picking on one or two advantages that one side has and shouting "not fair", while ignoring the disadvantages, is pretty pointless IMO.

martin_p
Posts: 5474
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1877 times
Has Liked: 440 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:27 pm

dsr wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:20 pm
Simple answer - you gp self=employed. You set up in business for yourself, so you have the joy of finding your own work instead of relying on your employer, and are free of such things like sick pay when you're ill and paid holidays.

You've chosen to work in regular employment 170 miles from home where you can't claim VAT back on your petrol. Your choice. If you don't like that choice, choose something else. The fact that some people continue to choose self-employment, while others (like you and me) do not, suggests that the balance between self-employed and employed status is something that has its plusses and minuses and neither one is wildly advantageous over the other. Which means that picking on one or two advantages that one side has and shouting "not fair", while ignoring the disadvantages, is pretty pointless IMO.
So you accept that being VAT registered is a way of avoiding paying VAT then I take it? you seem to have moved the argument in from ‘there’s no advantage’ to the ‘advantage is justified’ as has Paul Waine.

dsr
Posts: 8846
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 2670 times
Has Liked: 1144 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:12 am

martin_p wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:27 pm
So you accept that being VAT registered is a way of avoiding paying VAT then I take it? you seem to have moved the argument in from ‘there’s no advantage’ to the ‘advantage is justified’ as has Paul Waine.
In a sense yes, but it's about as logical as saying that giving up your car is a way of avoiding paying road tax.

If it makes you happy, I will concede that for a very small business who sells exclusively to to VAT-registered customers and has significant VATable expenses and sufficient financial and computer knowhow to avoid having to pay someone else to do the VAT returns, then it can be an advantage to register for VAT.

The system is expressly designed so that this business should be able to claim its VAT back; it isn't the VAT-registered business who is gaining an "unfair" advantage, it is the non-VAT registered business who is suffering an unfair disadvantage. The VAT system is designed to squeeze money out of individuals, not businesses; when it squeezes money out of businesses too, then it isn't working properly. Though obvioulsy the advantage is to the government.

Paul Waine
Posts: 5251
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 1238 times
Has Liked: 1492 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:24 am

martin_p wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:27 pm
So you accept that being VAT registered is a way of avoiding paying VAT then I take it? you seem to have moved the argument in from ‘there’s no advantage’ to the ‘advantage is justified’ as has Paul Waine.
Hi martin, good to be back on line!

I feel dsr has misled you. £84,000 revenue includes VAT. Your consultant/joiner/business person would have to find an additional 20% of business activity to earn £84,000 without VAT to make dsr's figures work.... though, from memory, revenue somewhere around the £80,000 level is where you have to be registered for VAT - that's why I used a figure of £70,000 in my example.

So, businesses can properly offset their business expenses against the calculation of their profits. Any VAT incurred on allowable business expenses can be offset against the VAT they have collected for HMRC. (Remember, I mentioned that businesses can't reclaim VAT on business entertaining/meals for clients and such).

Our consultant/businessperson/joiner is not able to claim expenses for travelling - if the travelling is just the same as yours, commuting from home to place of work. Of course, our business person can claim travel expenses to travel from their office to clients' premises. You employer will also be able to claim your travel expenses if you were required to travel to another office - though, I think, under the strict rules, if the other office was nearer your home the saving on your 170 miles commute would mean there were no extra travel expenses to claim.

Did I say there was "an advantage?" I don't think so, just that there are variations in the rules. We should all think ourselves lucky that we don't have to account for VAT, as employees, on the wages we receive from our employers. ;)

dsr
Posts: 8846
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 2670 times
Has Liked: 1144 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by dsr » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:44 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:24 am
Hi martin, good to be back on line!

I feel dsr has misled you. £84,000 revenue includes VAT. Your consultant/joiner/business person would have to find an additional 20% of business activity to earn £84,000 without VAT to make dsr's figures work.... though, from memory, revenue somewhere around the £80,000 level is where you have to be registered for VAT - that's why I used a figure of £70,000 in my example.

So, businesses can properly offset their business expenses against the calculation of their profits. Any VAT incurred on allowable business expenses can be offset against the VAT they have collected for HMRC. (Remember, I mentioned that businesses can't reclaim VAT on business entertaining/meals for clients and such).

Our consultant/businessperson/joiner is not able to claim expenses for travelling - if the travelling is just the same as yours, commuting from home to place of work. Of course, our business person can claim travel expenses to travel from their office to clients' premises. You employer will also be able to claim your travel expenses if you were required to travel to another office - though, I think, under the strict rules, if the other office was nearer your home the saving on your 170 miles commute would mean there were no extra travel expenses to claim.

Did I say there was "an advantage?" I don't think so, just that there are variations in the rules. We should all think ourselves lucky that we don't have to account for VAT, as employees, on the wages we receive from our employers. ;)
I haven't misled martyn, but I seem to have misled you.

The point of a consultant is that all his customers are VAT registered anyway, so they don't care if their consultant charges £10k not VAT registered or £12k including VAT. The cost to them is only £10k either way. Hence is marginal advantage in registering.

It's the builder whose customers are not VAT registered who has the advangtage of not registering. A VAT registered builder has to charge his customers £12k for the new conservatory; a non-VAT registered one charges only £10k. If the quality of work is the same and the price is 20% less, it's a huge commercial advantage. This is why many builders don't buy the materials themselves, they go to the supplier and order it in the customer's name - so they don't have to sell the materials to the customer and bump up their turnover. For businesses with turnover less than £85k or so, with non-registered customers, not registering is a big advantage.
This user liked this post: Paul Waine

martin_p
Posts: 5474
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1877 times
Has Liked: 440 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:35 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:24 am
Hi martin, good to be back on line!

I feel dsr has misled you. £84,000 revenue includes VAT. Your consultant/joiner/business person would have to find an additional 20% of business activity to earn £84,000 without VAT to make dsr's figures work.... though, from memory, revenue somewhere around the £80,000 level is where you have to be registered for VAT - that's why I used a figure of £70,000 in my example.

So, businesses can properly offset their business expenses against the calculation of their profits. Any VAT incurred on allowable business expenses can be offset against the VAT they have collected for HMRC. (Remember, I mentioned that businesses can't reclaim VAT on business entertaining/meals for clients and such).

Our consultant/businessperson/joiner is not able to claim expenses for travelling - if the travelling is just the same as yours, commuting from home to place of work. Of course, our business person can claim travel expenses to travel from their office to clients' premises. You employer will also be able to claim your travel expenses if you were required to travel to another office - though, I think, under the strict rules, if the other office was nearer your home the saving on your 170 miles commute would mean there were no extra travel expenses to claim.

Did I say there was "an advantage?" I don't think so, just that there are variations in the rules. We should all think ourselves lucky that we don't have to account for VAT, as employees, on the wages we receive from our employers. ;)
So you can’t even seem to admit that in the scenario you created the profits are £600 more for VAT registered over non VAT registered. If that’s not a reason for registering for VAT when not legally obliged to I don’t know what is.

Anyway, I think I proved my original point. Because I didn’t agree with you on the Labour tax increases on businesses you effectively accused me of not understanding the tax system for businesses taking your (very high handed) stance that if you don’t understand in detail how this works you’re not allowed to discuss it. It’s just maths at the end of the day, admittedly with a sometimes complicated set of rules, but maths all the same.
This user liked this post: Greenmile

martin_p
Posts: 5474
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1877 times
Has Liked: 440 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:39 am

dsr wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:12 am
In a sense yes, but it's about as logical as saying that giving up your car is a way of avoiding paying road tax.

If it makes you happy, I will concede that for a very small business who sells exclusively to to VAT-registered customers and has significant VATable expenses and sufficient financial and computer knowhow to avoid having to pay someone else to do the VAT returns, then it can be an advantage to register for VAT.
That’s a very large number of sole trader businesses you’re talking about there, particularly ones that are in the consulting/contracting business. It’s probably the fact that there’s a growing number of these companies, whose sole purpose seems to be ‘tax efficiency’ that has caused Labour to think about how dividends are taxed.

Bordeauxclaret
Posts: 5746
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:36 pm
Been Liked: 1837 times
Has Liked: 963 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:46 am

Where is Andy with his polls?

It’s been days, I need a poll!

Paul Waine
Posts: 5251
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 1238 times
Has Liked: 1492 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:57 am

martin_p wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:39 am
That’s a very large number of sole trader businesses you’re talking about there, particularly ones that are in the consulting/contracting business. It’s probably the fact that there’s a growing number of these companies, whose sole purpose seems to be ‘tax efficiency’ that has caused Labour to think about how dividends are taxed.
I've no idea of the number of "sole trader" consultants. It wasn't "tax efficiency" that took me down this route, it was my employment being terminated by my then employer when I was 50+. It's very common for over 50s to find themselves on the "jobs to be cut lists." It happened to me, it's happened to many of my friends over recent years. Some of these, like me, have then found themselves a new job, others haven't. Some have found success in their new consulting activities, their business has grown and they've also created jobs for other people.

Take a look at IPSE if you want to learn more about "self-employed consulting and contracting" - and they also have stuff about IR35 tax rules.

Paul Waine
Posts: 5251
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:28 pm
Been Liked: 1238 times
Has Liked: 1492 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:01 am

martin_p wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:35 am
So you can’t even seem to admit that in the scenario you created the profits are £600 more for VAT registered over non VAT registered. If that’s not a reason for registering for VAT when not legally obliged to I don’t know what is.

Anyway, I think I proved my original point. Because I didn’t agree with you on the Labour tax increases on businesses you effectively accused me of not understanding the tax system for businesses taking your (very high handed) stance that if you don’t understand in detail how this works you’re not allowed to discuss it. It’s just maths at the end of the day, admittedly with a sometimes complicated set of rules, but maths all the same.
So, martin, we are agreed that Labour's tax proposals will increase taxes for small businesses, many of them "self-employed" individuals that earn lot less than £80,000?

That's the "maths" and the "tax rules" that we were debating.

I'll let the "high handed" statement go.

martin_p
Posts: 5474
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1877 times
Has Liked: 440 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:08 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:57 am
I've no idea of the number of "sole trader" consultants. It wasn't "tax efficiency" that took me down this route, it was my employment being terminated by my then employer when I was 50+. It's very common for over 50s to find themselves on the "jobs to be cut lists." It happened to me, it's happened to many of my friends over recent years. Some of these, like me, have then found themselves a new job, others haven't. Some have found success in their new consulting activities, their business has grown and they've also created jobs for other people.

Take a look at IPSE if you want to learn more about "self-employed consulting and contracting" - and they also have stuff about IR35 tax rules.
I’m well aware of IR35. It’s been around maybe 20+ years but it’s only in the past twelve months or so that HMRC have insisted that companies start taking it seriously.

martin_p
Posts: 5474
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 1877 times
Has Liked: 440 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by martin_p » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:09 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:01 am
So, martin, we are agreed that Labour's tax proposals will increase taxes for small businesses, many of them "self-employed" individuals that earn lot less than £80,000?

That's the "maths" and the "tax rules" that we were debating.
I’ve never disputed that, so if it’s what you were debating you’ve been wasting your time!

AndrewJB
Posts: 2402
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 851 times
Has Liked: 572 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:11 am

Tories now promising post Brexit tax cuts (any guesses where those might go?), but they’ll struggle with funding their current pledges by taxing google and Facebook, because the US will oppose this via trade talks, and if Johnson wants to keep the NHS off the table he won’t have a lot of wriggle room here. Labour not constrained by the same threat to the economy, as well still have free trade with EU even if we leave.Many families will be thousands better off under Labour anyway, so fewer fears over the economy.

CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 2299
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 753 times
Has Liked: 199 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:42 am

Two observations over the last week we have been down:

1. The polls have settled with Johnson looking about 9 points clear, hardly moving after that Labour shift the week before. That implies a majority of a few dozen with increasing probability.

2. Labour seem to be getting desperate - MacDonnell’s figure yesterday of the average family being better off by £7000 under Labour was a total fabrication. There was so much wrong with that figure (it was mainly childcare and rail season tickets, and didn’t allow for inflation, both parents not commuting to London by train, nor Government childcare subsidies). The average family actually will be fairly unaffected unless a Labour tax rise hits them.

So it is all pointing to a Johnson win, but a hung parliament seems about 20% likely where Corbyn will be PM and his tax rises could be the price he wants to allow (say) a new Scottish vote. Nobody should therefore be complacent, the country will look VERY different in 12 months, regardless of who wins.

claretandy
Posts: 2227
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 445 times
Has Liked: 167 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by claretandy » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:20 am

Bordeauxclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:46 am
Where is Andy with his polls?

It’s been days, I need a poll!

There you go, no change.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/statu ... 58337?s=19

Mala591
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:02 pm
Been Liked: 189 times
Has Liked: 105 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Mala591 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:56 am

The BIG question for the 66% of Burnley voters who voted leave is whether they want to 'back up their democratic decision' and vote Conservative next Thursday.

Some will have serious doubts about their original decision and they can vote Lib Dem or Labour.

Others still feel strongly that their original decision was correct and they will vote accordingly.

Democracy in action...

Rick_Muller
Posts: 4780
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:53 am
Been Liked: 2114 times
Has Liked: 5182 times
Location: -90.000000, 0.000000

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Rick_Muller » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:51 am

"Get Brexit Done..."

Boris keeps banging this mantra, but forgets that his Brexit isn't the Brexit the majority of people wanted. His Brexit is merely a tick in the box for a bloke who will say and do anything to hold on to power.

Truth is, if you actually want to "Get Brexit Done..." you could, no SHOULD vote for Labour and Jeremy Corbyn. When you do that, you empower a government to reach a realistic possibility for a real Brexit with the EU and then we can all have the choice of whether its actually what we want.

"Yeah, but we voted for Brexit already, why should we vote again?

Simply put, what JC is proposing is removing the uncertainty of the previous Tory government bumbling along trying to vote through parliament a poor/no deal Brexit that no one actually wants (dont forget its just a tick box for Boris - he used to want to stay in the EU when it suited him remember) and we can put the Brexit issue to bed for good.

Boris will not "Get Brexit Done..." he will have to drag out years of negotiation with the EU to enable him to tick a box to say he succeeded, whereas JC will enable us, the public not MPs, to decide if we still want a realistic Brexit that can occur.

Rick_Muller
Posts: 4780
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:53 am
Been Liked: 2114 times
Has Liked: 5182 times
Location: -90.000000, 0.000000

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Rick_Muller » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:55 am


CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 2299
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 753 times
Has Liked: 199 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:58 am

The BIG question for me is now actually about the rump of Remain voters who (maybe rightly) feared an economic impact of leaving an EU they have no love for.

The reality is that these voters don’t benefit from free movement (that is a small minority of at a guess a few hundred thousand). They probably aren’t in jobs propped up by the single market supply chain. They dislike EU rules and regulations, and dislike the democratic deficit. But they have 2 fears:
1. Tory freedom to damage the country (the left wing ones)
2. Economic impact on the UK as a whole by businesses relocating.

The choice is now clear - it is a Corbyn government or coalition, or a Johnson one. So it strikes me that the economic impact they fear could happen regardless. “Business as usual” is not on the table. So what do these Remain voters do? Particularly the ones who usually vote Lib Dem or Tory. A fascinating dilemma.

Spijed
Posts: 10247
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 1814 times
Has Liked: 817 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Spijed » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:14 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:58 am
The BIG question for me is now actually about the rump of Remain voters who (maybe rightly) feared an economic impact of leaving an EU they have no love for.

The reality is that these voters don’t benefit from free movement (that is a small minority of at a guess a few hundred thousand). They probably aren’t in jobs propped up by the single market supply chain. They dislike EU rules and regulations, and dislike the democratic deficit. But they have 2 fears:
1. Tory freedom to damage the country (the left wing ones)
2. Economic impact on the UK as a whole by businesses relocating.

The choice is now clear - it is a Corbyn government or coalition, or a Johnson one. So it strikes me that the economic impact they fear could happen regardless. “Business as usual” is not on the table. So what do these Remain voters do? Particularly the ones who usually vote Lib Dem or Tory. A fascinating dilemma.
Crosspool, what is your opinion of Boris Johnson in that his audience is ALWAYS hand picked, is never willing to face a hostile crowd, every photo op is very carefully organised and he simply won't do the Andrew Neil interview, and only does those interviews where he will get very favourable and vetted questions?

How can you be a good PM if you are always hidden away from the public?

aggi
Posts: 4797
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 1142 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:29 am

Bordeauxclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:46 am
Where is Andy with his polls?

It’s been days, I need a poll!
Here's one BC.

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 39% (-2)
LAB: 33% (+5)
LDEM: 13% (-5)
GRN: 5% (-)
BREX: 4% (+1)

via @BMGResearch, 27 - 29 Nov
Chgs. w/ 21 Nov

Seems a bit of an outlier but it looks to be in hung parliament range.

What they're all showing is the Brexit Party is the irrelevance that I expected.

claretandy
Posts: 2227
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 445 times
Has Liked: 167 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by claretandy » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:53 am

aggi wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:29 am
Here's one BC.

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 39% (-2)
LAB: 33% (+5)
LDEM: 13% (-5)
GRN: 5% (-)
BREX: 4% (+1)

via @BMGResearch, 27 - 29 Nov
Chgs. w/ 21 Nov

Seems a bit of an outlier but it looks to be in hung parliament range.

What they're all showing is the Brexit Party is the irrelevance that I expected.
It's as much an outlier as the ones giving the Tories a 17 point lead. 10 point lead on average.

Rick_Muller
Posts: 4780
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:53 am
Been Liked: 2114 times
Has Liked: 5182 times
Location: -90.000000, 0.000000

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Rick_Muller » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:58 am


Quickenthetempo
Posts: 8966
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am
Been Liked: 1996 times
Has Liked: 1143 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:16 pm

Corbyn was caught out telling big porkie pies about watching the Queens speech on Christmas Day. Claiming it was on in the morning.

The Labour party need to get shut of him and his cronies. Jesus wept, he could actually represent our country?

tiger76
Posts: 4717
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 620 times
Has Liked: 1894 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: General Election Is On

Post by tiger76 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:29 pm

Mala591 wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:56 am
The BIG question for the 66% of Burnley voters who voted leave is whether they want to 'back up their democratic decision' and vote Conservative next Thursday.

Some will have serious doubts about their original decision and they can vote Lib Dem or Labour.

Others still feel strongly that their original decision was correct and they will vote accordingly.

Democracy in action...
There definitely seems to be a squeeze on the BP in Burnley,a couple of snippets from the web.

Thinly veiled Facebook message today from Brexit party's Burnley County & Borough Councillor Alan Hosker, admitting that some family and friends are voting Conservative, " to get Brexit done " on this occasion, warning against splitting the " Leave " vote, allowing Julie Cooper to be re-elected back to Westminster!

As at 5th December, Electoral Calculus predicting ....

Lab 14,401 ( - 6.9% )
Con 11,647 ( + 1.2% )
Brx 4,472 ( + 6.3% ) * over 2017 UKIP
L/D 4,026 ( - 3.9% )
Grn 1,484 ( + 3.0% )
Ind's 162 ( + 0.4% )

Several issues with this ...

1) L/D Candidate is well known and has a strong local following ( MP 2010-15 ) ... cannot see his vote falling below a poor 2017 performance..

2) Greens look too high ... 2.5% at most, any increase on 2017 vote share will hit Labour

3) The Burnley & Padiham Independents Candidate will probably poll at least 1,200 votes on his own, never mind the other Independent, who's campaigning on Education Issues, for Autistic pupils ..

4) A large number of Brexit Party voters should come from Hapton with Park, Gawthorpe and Rosegrove with Lowerhouse wards ... I understand two of the Brexit party Councillors are on the brink of urging voters to vote Conservative, to avoid splitting the " Leave " vote, and allowing the sitting Labour MP to return to Westminster ...

Rick_Muller
Posts: 4780
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:53 am
Been Liked: 2114 times
Has Liked: 5182 times
Location: -90.000000, 0.000000

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Rick_Muller » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:34 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:16 pm
Corbyn was caught out telling big porkie pies about watching the Queens speech on Christmas Day. Claiming it was on in the morning.

The Labour party need to get shut of him and his cronies. Jesus wept, he could actually represent our country?
Sorry but not watching the Queen's speech or knowing actually when it airs is not telliong a big porkie, not if you compare it to 50000 extra nurses of course - that one the Tories keep standing by which anyone with an ounce of a brain cell can see is just a massive lie
This user liked this post: Greenmile

LoveCurryPies
Posts: 3187
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:00 am
Been Liked: 1129 times
Has Liked: 464 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by LoveCurryPies » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:37 pm

Farage and Brexit Party want to take us back to 1973. Corbyn wants to go back even further. I’m stocking up on candles. :lol:

taio
Posts: 5138
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 1516 times
Has Liked: 138 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:44 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:34 pm
Sorry but not watching the Queen's speech or knowing actually when it airs is not telliong a big porkie, not if you compare it to 50000 extra nurses of course - that one the Tories keep standing by which anyone with an ounce of a brain cell can see is just a massive lie
If there are 280,000 nurses now and there will be 330,000 nurses in the next few years, how many extra nurses would there be? Did the Tories specifically say in their manifesto there would be 50,000 more newly qualified nurses and why does it matter how the extra number is provided? Is it not reasonable to say that there will be 50,000 extra nurses and this can only be realistically delivered in the relative near term by a combination of training more people to become a nurse, bringing in nurses from overseas and doing more to retain existing nurses that would otherwise have left the NHS?

Rick_Muller
Posts: 4780
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:53 am
Been Liked: 2114 times
Has Liked: 5182 times
Location: -90.000000, 0.000000

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Rick_Muller » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:55 pm

taio wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:44 pm
If there are 280,000 nurses now and there will be 330,000 nurses in the next few years, how many extra nurses would there be? Did the Tories specifically say in their manifesto there would be 50,000 more newly qualified nurses and why does it matter how the extra number is provided? Is it not reasonable to say that there will be 50,000 extra nurses and this can only be realistically delivered in the relative near term by a combination of training more people to become a nurse, bringing in nurses from overseas and doing more to retain existing nurses that would otherwise have left the NHS?
but there are over 300000 nurses now not 280000 as you state... you cant fudge the figures to make a lie correct
nurses.JPG
nurses.JPG (56.04 KiB) Viewed 154 times

taio
Posts: 5138
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 1516 times
Has Liked: 138 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by taio » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:09 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:55 pm
but there are over 300000 nurses now not 280000 as you state... you cant fudge the figures to make a lie correct

nurses.JPG
So the 300,000 includes nurses working in the independent sector. You can question the number of nurses now. You can question if government would actually deliver 50,000 more nurses. But they are different arguments to questioning the logic of saying we will have 50,000 more nurses by training more people to become a nurse, bringing in more nurses form overseas and doing a better job at keeping hold of nurses.

Quickenthetempo
Posts: 8966
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am
Been Liked: 1996 times
Has Liked: 1143 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:42 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:34 pm
Sorry but not watching the Queen's speech or knowing actually when it airs is not telliong a big porkie,
You're right, but claiming you watch it when you don't clearly is.

aggi
Posts: 4797
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 1142 times

Re: General Election Is On

Post by aggi » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:44 pm

claretandy wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:53 am
It's as much an outlier as the ones giving the Tories a 17 point lead. 10 point lead on average.
Yes, a bit of viewing of BritainElects shows quite a wide range. The trends tend to be more interesting than the absolute figures in many ways

This one amused me though

EU referendum voting intention:

Remain: 52% (+1)
Leave: 48% (-1)

via
@PanelbaseMD
, 27 - 28 Nov
Chgs. w/ 22 Nov

Post Reply