FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

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Stayingup
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Stayingup » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:47 am

Generally some really good comments on here about this. Its not something I have taken an interest in folllowing the unseemly protesting. I am very much in support of Kick it Out. I just wonder who the kneeling is aimed at. Is it us, the public or the establishment or who?

My view is you can't delete history but leran from it. BLM is political and the FA is right to distance itself from it now. The point has been made. As mentioned in a post above the way that the protests have been carried out has not helped black people at all.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by NottsClaret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:57 am

Gary Lineker distancing himself a bit from it this morning, after some anti-semitic tweet from the BLM account.

I support the original idea, believe racism is still a huge issue and back any players who want to make a stand. But if Gary Lineker is starting to feel a bit uncomfortable with some of the stuff BLM are coming out with, it's maybe time to find a new banner to stand behind. Or dare I say it, return to Kick it Out as Rowls suggested.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by TVC15 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:02 am

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:04 am
Do you honestly think that the BLM movement is the correct vehicle to achieve what they want? I don’t.

As for dinosaurs at the FA, I think it can be argued that their rethink to openly backing BLM shows they are a little more in touch than you give them credit for.

By the way, it’s absolutely right that there needs to be a zero tolerance stance to racism.

There was a need to do something but adopting the name of a politically (wider than one issue) motivated movement
was/is not the right thing to do as it diminishes support amongst those that don’t that agree with ALL that the chosen movement stand for.
Maybe the FA should discuss it with the black members who sit on their board first ? Oh hang on....

Maybe black players associated themselves with the movement because they were sick at the lack of progress and desperate for change and to highlight the inequality they feel not only as players but also as people ?

Maybe they did not realise everything that the political movement stood for ? Or maybe they did but thought that this would still give them a bigger platform for change than they ever had so decided it would be worth it despite misgivings about the extreme elements ?

The FA sitting down and discussing this with black players would have been a better approach. It does not sound like the kick it out campaign or existing approach / policies is anywhere near enough so have a conversation with black players about what is.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:05 am

Top Claret wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:53 am
Proves how thick footballers are supporting a left wing Marxists organisation who would strip them of their wealth.

It doesn't prove that at all.

Can you imagine the sh1te a footballer would get if he hadn't knelt before Zod?

You must have seen the b0llocks on here from the white flag wavers throwing around the 'R' word like confetti when folk didn't agree with it.

It would be a lot worse for a footballer.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Hipper » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:15 am

The organisation Black Lives Matter has been active in this country for a while and has expressed its views on a range of relevant subjects - at least that's what I've seen from TV news etc.. They always came across as one sided but trying to look after the interests of one ethnic group, black people. It's only since the death of George Floyd and the footballers actions that I looked up about the organisation BLM. The situation is confusing in the UK though as there is BLMUK.com and BLM.co.uk and they seem to be different. In the case of the BLMUK, they want to 'overthrow this system and create a better world'.

May be triggered by George Floyd's death, but also perhaps still frustrated at the racism in the game at all levels (for example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52994025 ), Premier League footballers have decided amongst themselves to do something about it - an admiral thought. They probably chose the slogan 'Black Lives Matter' because it resonated and they may have heard of it, and they adopted this knee thing because as sportsman they'd probably seen it in U.S. sport.

I'm wondering if any of them really investigated the organisations called BLM. If they did, they must have thought that the message was bigger then the organisation name (it's hard to believe they agreed with BLM's anti-capitalist stance as these footballers have all benefited greatly from capitalism). Footballers are not alone in this. Matt Hancock used the phrase in one TV interview; Sky and Virgin Media have pushed this phrase.

All this is unfortunate as it gives confusion and allows those who don't like the footballers' actions to easily attack them.

Overall, whilst I don't like those with influence abusing that power, I appreciate that, like Princess Diana and Aids or land mines, it can be used as a force for good. I hope the footballers actions will lead to the right changes but they will have to keep the pressure up for a considerable time and I'm a bit dubious that they will.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by gtclaret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:59 am

The FA already have a kick it out campaign which they could have used. They cannot support the BLM and then distance themselves from it. The FA and the football clubs have allowed themselves to be bullied into doing and saying everything this extreme racist group demands

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:05 am

I read that only last year Kick It Out supported The Times manifesto that is ' calling for a fundamental change in how football's authorities tackle racism and discrimination. This campaign is supported by Raheem Sterling amongst others.
Hopefully recent events have made these authorities and the rest of us feel uncomfortable enough to really push forward and support such initiatives.
It's a time for looking forward not backwards. And certainly a time to educate ourselves
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by arise_sir_charge » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:17 am

Gordaleman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:33 am
So you don't think it's right that black people are treated equally? Apparently not. I do. That's the difference.
May I respectfully suggest that you read my posts properly.

To clarify, I think it is right that every single person of every race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality etc etc etc be treated as an equal.

I don't think it's right for people to protest, especially those like yourself, seemingly unaware of what they are protesting about, amidst a global pandemic that has claimed hundreds of thousands of lives. Nor do I feel it appropriate for sport to align itself with political movements or similar.

BAME LIves Matter would have been a better tag line, as opposed to picking an unsuitable one off the shelf.

Hopefully that clarifies my position.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Caernarfon_Claret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:17 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

Definition and culture war usage
Further information: Culture war
From the late 1990s, the Frankfurt School has been the object of a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory that identifies the school as the origin of an ongoing academic and intellectual movement, referred to by the theory's proponents as "Cultural Marxism", which intends to undermine and destroy Western culture and values.[49] According to the conspiracy theory, the Frankfurt School and other Marxist theorists were part of a conspiracy to attack Western society by undermining traditionalist conservatism and Christianity using the 1960s counterculture, multiculturalism, progressive politics and political correctness.[50][51][52]

This conspiracy theory is associated with American religious fundamentalists and paleoconservatives such as William S. Lind, Pat Buchanan, and Paul Weyrich; but also holds currency among the alt-right, white nationalists, Neo-Nazi organizations, and the neo-reactionary movement.[53][54]

In 1998 Weyrich presented his version of the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory in a speech to the Conservative Leadership Conference of the Civitas Institute and then published the speech in his syndicated Culture war letter.[55] At Weyrich's request, William S. Lind wrote a short history of his conception of Cultural Marxism for the Free Congress Foundation; in it Lind identifies the presence of openly gay people on television as proof of Cultural Marxist control over the mass media and claims that Herbert Marcuse considered a coalition of "blacks, students, feminist women, and homosexuals" as a vanguard of cultural revolution.[50][51][56]

In 2014 Lind pseudonymously published Victoria: A Novel of 4th Generation Warfare, by Thomas Hobbes, about a societal apocalypse in which Cultural Marxism deposes traditional conservatism as the culture of the Western world. Ultimately, a Christian military victory deposes social liberalism and reestablishes a traditionalist and theocratic socioeconomic order based upon British Victorian morality of the late 19th century.[57][58] The anti-Marxism of Lind and Weyrich advocates political confrontation and intellectual opposition to Cultural Marxism with "a vibrant cultural conservatism" composed of "retro-culture fashions", a return to railroads as public transport, and an agrarian culture of self-reliance, modeled after that of the Christian Amish folk.[59] In the Dialectic of Counter-Enlightenment: The Frankfurt School as Scapegoat of the Lunatic Fringe (2011), the historian Martin Jay said that Lind's documentary of conservative counter-culture, Political Correctness: The Frankfurt School (1999), was effective propaganda, because it:

"spawned a number of condensed textual versions, which were reproduced on a number of radical, right-wing sites. These, in turn, led to a plethora of new videos, now available on YouTube, which feature an odd cast of pseudo-experts regurgitating exactly the same line. The message is numbingly simplistic: All the 'ills' of modern American culture, from feminism, affirmative action, sexual liberation, racial equality, multiculturalism and gay rights to the decay of traditional education, and even environmentalism, are ultimately attributable to the insidious intellectual influence of the members of the Institute for Social Research who came to America in the 1930s.[60]

Aspects of the conspiracy
Cultural pessimism
In the essay "New Dark Age: The Frankfurt School and 'Political Correctness'" (1992), Michael Minnicino presented a precursor of the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory on behalf of the Schiller Institute of the LaRouche political movement. Minnicino said the "Jewish intellectuals" of the Frankfurt School promoted modern art to make cultural pessimism the spirit of the counter-culture of the 1960s, based upon the counter-culture of the Wandervogel, the socially liberal German youth movement whose Swiss Monte Verità commune was the 19th-century predecessor of Western counter-culture.[61][60][62][63]

In Fascism: Fascism and Culture (2003), professor and Oxford fellow Matthew Feldman traced the etymology of the term "Cultural Marxism" back to the anti-Semitic term Kulturbolschewismus (Cultural Bolshevism), which Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party used to assert that Jewish cultural influence was the source of German social degeneration under the liberal régime of the Weimar Republic (1918–1939), and also the cause of social degeneration in the West.[64]

Othering of political opponents
In the article titled Hate Crimes, Vol. 5, Heidi Beirich stated that the conspiracy theory is used to demonize various conservative "bêtes noires" including feminists, homosexuals, secular humanists, multiculturalists, sex educators, environmentalists, immigrants, and black nationalists.[65]

In Europe, the Norwegian far-right terrorist Anders Behring Breivik quoted Lind's usage of the term "Cultural Marxism" in his political manifesto 2083: A European Declaration of Independence, writing that the "sexually transmitted disease (STD) epidemic in Western Europe is a result of cultural Marxism", that "Cultural Marxism defines Muslims, feminist women, homosexuals, and some additional minority groups, as virtuous, and they view ethnic Christian European men as evil", and that "The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) in Strasbourg is a cultural-Marxist-controlled political entity." About 90 minutes before killing 77 people in his terrorist attacks in Norway on July 22nd, 2001, Breivik e-mailed 1003 people a copy of his 1500-page manifesto and a copy of Political Correctness: A Short History of an Ideology, which was edited by Lind and published by the Free Congress Research and Education Foundation.[66][67][68][69]

In the article titled Collectivists, Communists, Labor Bosses, and Treason: The Tea Parties as Right-wing, Populist Counter-subversion Panic, Chip Berlet identifies the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory as an ideological basis of the Tea Party movement within the Republican Party. The Tea Party identifies as a right-wing populist movement; its claims of social subversion echo earlier white-nationalist claims of racial, social, and cultural subversion. The economic elites use populist rhetoric to encourage counter-subversion panics. Thus, a large, middle-class white constituency is politically deceived into siding with the ruling-class social and economic elites to defend their relative and precarious socioeconomic position in the middle class. Cultural scapegoats, such as mythical conspiracies claiming that collectivists, communists, labor bosses, and nonwhite citizens and immigrants are to blame for the economic, political, and social failures of free-market capitalism. In that manner, under the guise of patriotism, economic libertarianism, traditional Christian values, and nativism, right-wing accusations of Cultural Marxism defended the racist and sexist social hierarchies specifically opposed to the "big government" policies of the Obama administration.[70][71]

In the essay Cultural Marxism and the Radical Right, the political scientist Jérôme Jamin said that "next to the global dimension of the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory, there is its innovative and original dimension, which lets its racist authors avoid racist discourses, and pretend to be defenders of democracy in their respective countries".[72] The essay titled How Trump's Paranoid White House Sees 'Deep State' Enemies on all Sides reported that an employee within the Trump administration by the name of Richard Higgins was dismissed from the U.S. National Security Council because he published a memorandum called POTUS & Political Warfare, wherein Higgins claimed the existence of an alleged left-wing conspiracy to destroy the Trump presidency and that "American public intellectuals of Cultural Marxism, foreign Islamicists, and globalist bankers, the news media, and politicians from the Republican and the Democrat parties were attacking Trump because he represents an existential threat to the cultural Marxist memes that dominate the prevailing cultural narrative in the U.S."[73][74][75]

"Political Correctness" and anti-Semitic Canards
In the speech titled "The Origins of Political Correctness" (2000), William S. Lind established the ideological and etymological lineage of Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory:

If we look at it analytically, if we look at it historically, we quickly find out exactly what it is. Political correctness is Cultural Marxism. It is Marxism translated from economic into cultural terms. It is an effort that goes back not to the 1960s and the Hippies and the peace movement, but back to World War I, to Kulturbolshewismus. If we compare the basic tenets of Political Correctness with the basic tenets of classical Marxism, the parallels are very obvious.[76]

Lind's history of the term and its meanings were described in "The Alt-right’s Favorite Meme is 100 Years Old" (2018), in which professor of law Samuel Moyn reported that social fear of Cultural Marxism is "an American contribution to the phantasmagoria of the alt-right"; while the conspiracy theory, itself, is "a crude slander, referring to Judeo-Bolshevism, something that does not exist".[77]

I know it's long.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Aclaret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:21 am

Caernarfon_Claret wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:17 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

Definition and culture war usage
Further information: Culture war
From the late 1990s, the Frankfurt School has been the object of a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory that identifies the school as the origin of an ongoing academic and intellectual movement, referred to by the theory's proponents as "Cultural Marxism", which intends to undermine and destroy Western culture and values.[49] According to the conspiracy theory, the Frankfurt School and other Marxist theorists were part of a conspiracy to attack Western society by undermining traditionalist conservatism and Christianity using the 1960s counterculture, multiculturalism, progressive politics and political correctness.[50][51][52]

This conspiracy theory is associated with American religious fundamentalists and paleoconservatives such as William S. Lind, Pat Buchanan, and Paul Weyrich; but also holds currency among the alt-right, white nationalists, Neo-Nazi organizations, and the neo-reactionary movement.[53][54]

In 1998 Weyrich presented his version of the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory in a speech to the Conservative Leadership Conference of the Civitas Institute and then published the speech in his syndicated Culture war letter.[55] At Weyrich's request, William S. Lind wrote a short history of his conception of Cultural Marxism for the Free Congress Foundation; in it Lind identifies the presence of openly gay people on television as proof of Cultural Marxist control over the mass media and claims that Herbert Marcuse considered a coalition of "blacks, students, feminist women, and homosexuals" as a vanguard of cultural revolution.[50][51][56]

In 2014 Lind pseudonymously published Victoria: A Novel of 4th Generation Warfare, by Thomas Hobbes, about a societal apocalypse in which Cultural Marxism deposes traditional conservatism as the culture of the Western world. Ultimately, a Christian military victory deposes social liberalism and reestablishes a traditionalist and theocratic socioeconomic order based upon British Victorian morality of the late 19th century.[57][58] The anti-Marxism of Lind and Weyrich advocates political confrontation and intellectual opposition to Cultural Marxism with "a vibrant cultural conservatism" composed of "retro-culture fashions", a return to railroads as public transport, and an agrarian culture of self-reliance, modeled after that of the Christian Amish folk.[59] In the Dialectic of Counter-Enlightenment: The Frankfurt School as Scapegoat of the Lunatic Fringe (2011), the historian Martin Jay said that Lind's documentary of conservative counter-culture, Political Correctness: The Frankfurt School (1999), was effective propaganda, because it:

"spawned a number of condensed textual versions, which were reproduced on a number of radical, right-wing sites. These, in turn, led to a plethora of new videos, now available on YouTube, which feature an odd cast of pseudo-experts regurgitating exactly the same line. The message is numbingly simplistic: All the 'ills' of modern American culture, from feminism, affirmative action, sexual liberation, racial equality, multiculturalism and gay rights to the decay of traditional education, and even environmentalism, are ultimately attributable to the insidious intellectual influence of the members of the Institute for Social Research who came to America in the 1930s.[60]

Aspects of the conspiracy
Cultural pessimism
In the essay "New Dark Age: The Frankfurt School and 'Political Correctness'" (1992), Michael Minnicino presented a precursor of the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory on behalf of the Schiller Institute of the LaRouche political movement. Minnicino said the "Jewish intellectuals" of the Frankfurt School promoted modern art to make cultural pessimism the spirit of the counter-culture of the 1960s, based upon the counter-culture of the Wandervogel, the socially liberal German youth movement whose Swiss Monte Verità commune was the 19th-century predecessor of Western counter-culture.[61][60][62][63]

In Fascism: Fascism and Culture (2003), professor and Oxford fellow Matthew Feldman traced the etymology of the term "Cultural Marxism" back to the anti-Semitic term Kulturbolschewismus (Cultural Bolshevism), which Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party used to assert that Jewish cultural influence was the source of German social degeneration under the liberal régime of the Weimar Republic (1918–1939), and also the cause of social degeneration in the West.[64]

Othering of political opponents
In the article titled Hate Crimes, Vol. 5, Heidi Beirich stated that the conspiracy theory is used to demonize various conservative "bêtes noires" including feminists, homosexuals, secular humanists, multiculturalists, sex educators, environmentalists, immigrants, and black nationalists.[65]

In Europe, the Norwegian far-right terrorist Anders Behring Breivik quoted Lind's usage of the term "Cultural Marxism" in his political manifesto 2083: A European Declaration of Independence, writing that the "sexually transmitted disease (STD) epidemic in Western Europe is a result of cultural Marxism", that "Cultural Marxism defines Muslims, feminist women, homosexuals, and some additional minority groups, as virtuous, and they view ethnic Christian European men as evil", and that "The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) in Strasbourg is a cultural-Marxist-controlled political entity." About 90 minutes before killing 77 people in his terrorist attacks in Norway on July 22nd, 2001, Breivik e-mailed 1003 people a copy of his 1500-page manifesto and a copy of Political Correctness: A Short History of an Ideology, which was edited by Lind and published by the Free Congress Research and Education Foundation.[66][67][68][69]

In the article titled Collectivists, Communists, Labor Bosses, and Treason: The Tea Parties as Right-wing, Populist Counter-subversion Panic, Chip Berlet identifies the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory as an ideological basis of the Tea Party movement within the Republican Party. The Tea Party identifies as a right-wing populist movement; its claims of social subversion echo earlier white-nationalist claims of racial, social, and cultural subversion. The economic elites use populist rhetoric to encourage counter-subversion panics. Thus, a large, middle-class white constituency is politically deceived into siding with the ruling-class social and economic elites to defend their relative and precarious socioeconomic position in the middle class. Cultural scapegoats, such as mythical conspiracies claiming that collectivists, communists, labor bosses, and nonwhite citizens and immigrants are to blame for the economic, political, and social failures of free-market capitalism. In that manner, under the guise of patriotism, economic libertarianism, traditional Christian values, and nativism, right-wing accusations of Cultural Marxism defended the racist and sexist social hierarchies specifically opposed to the "big government" policies of the Obama administration.[70][71]

In the essay Cultural Marxism and the Radical Right, the political scientist Jérôme Jamin said that "next to the global dimension of the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory, there is its innovative and original dimension, which lets its racist authors avoid racist discourses, and pretend to be defenders of democracy in their respective countries".[72] The essay titled How Trump's Paranoid White House Sees 'Deep State' Enemies on all Sides reported that an employee within the Trump administration by the name of Richard Higgins was dismissed from the U.S. National Security Council because he published a memorandum called POTUS & Political Warfare, wherein Higgins claimed the existence of an alleged left-wing conspiracy to destroy the Trump presidency and that "American public intellectuals of Cultural Marxism, foreign Islamicists, and globalist bankers, the news media, and politicians from the Republican and the Democrat parties were attacking Trump because he represents an existential threat to the cultural Marxist memes that dominate the prevailing cultural narrative in the U.S."[73][74][75]

"Political Correctness" and anti-Semitic Canards
In the speech titled "The Origins of Political Correctness" (2000), William S. Lind established the ideological and etymological lineage of Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory:

If we look at it analytically, if we look at it historically, we quickly find out exactly what it is. Political correctness is Cultural Marxism. It is Marxism translated from economic into cultural terms. It is an effort that goes back not to the 1960s and the Hippies and the peace movement, but back to World War I, to Kulturbolshewismus. If we compare the basic tenets of Political Correctness with the basic tenets of classical Marxism, the parallels are very obvious.[76]

Lind's history of the term and its meanings were described in "The Alt-right’s Favorite Meme is 100 Years Old" (2018), in which professor of law Samuel Moyn reported that social fear of Cultural Marxism is "an American contribution to the phantasmagoria of the alt-right"; while the conspiracy theory, itself, is "a crude slander, referring to Judeo-Bolshevism, something that does not exist".[77]

I know it's long.
You can say that again CC. 😁

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Caernarfon_Claret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:26 am

Aclaret wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:21 am
You can say that again CC. 😁
I can't.

I'm out of breath.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Caernarfon_Claret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:29 am

I meant that for the antisemitism thread anyway.

So just ignore it here as it's irrelevant.

Something on BLM use of the term "Zionism" might be more appropriate.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by arise_sir_charge » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:30 am

TVC15 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:02 am
Maybe the FA should discuss it with the black members who sit on their board first ? Oh hang on....

I assume they did discuss it with their board members.

Maybe black players associated themselves with the movement because they were sick at the lack of progress and desperate for change and to highlight the inequality they feel not only as players but also as people ?

Possibly, that doesn't mean that the FA etc and broadcast companies should follow.

Maybe they did not realise everything that the political movement stood for ? Or maybe they did but thought that this would still give them a bigger platform for change than they ever had so decided it would be worth it despite misgivings about the extreme elements ?

Again, possibly but in my opinion a wrong call if so.

The FA sitting down and discussing this with black players would have been a better approach. It does not sound like the kick it out campaign or existing approach / policies is anywhere near enough so have a conversation with black players about what is.

Couldn't agree more.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Gordaleman » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:38 am

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:17 am
May I respectfully suggest that you read my posts properly.

To clarify, I think it is right that every single person of every race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality etc etc etc be treated as an equal.

I don't think it's right for people to protest, especially those like yourself, seemingly unaware of what they are protesting about, amidst a global pandemic that has claimed hundreds of thousands of lives. Nor do I feel it appropriate for sport to align itself with political movements or similar.

BAME LIves Matter would have been a better tag line, as opposed to picking an unsuitable one off the shelf.

Hopefully that clarifies my position.
Thanks for clarifying your position. Let me clarify mine. I haven't been out protesting but I understand those who have. Most people on the streets and supporting the protests will have had no links to the 'Black lives matter' political movement and probably didn't even know there was one until the right wing racists made them aware of of it. My support is purely that of someone who think ALL lives matter and it's about time that that included black people.

Yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing and perhaps many people who marched to say, effectively, that 'Black lives matter as well' might not have done so if they thought that they were being seen as supporting a radical political organisation.

As for sport aligning itself with a political movement, I don't think that was the intention at all. It's hardly political to say that all people should be treated equally and they certainly aren't at the moment in the US and Britain.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Caernarfon_Claret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:50 am

I wonder which type of Zionism BLM have a problem with?

Political
Practical
Synthetic
Labour
Revisionist
Cultural
Revolutionary
Religious
Reform
Christian
Neo-Zionism
Post-Zionism
...

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by arise_sir_charge » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:55 am

Gordaleman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:38 am
Thanks for clarifying your position. Let me clarify mine. I haven't been out protesting but I understand those who have. Most people on the streets and supporting the protests will have had no links to the 'Black lives matter' political movement and probably didn't even know there was one until the right wing racists made them aware of of it. My support is purely that of someone who think ALL lives matter and it's about time that that included black people.

Yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing and perhaps many people who marched to say, effectively, that 'Black lives matter as well' might not have done so if they thought that they were being seen as supporting a radical political organisation.

As for sport aligning itself with a political movement, I don't think that was the intention at all. It's hardly political to say that all people should be treated equally and they certainly aren't at the moment in the US and Britain.
So pointing something out to someone makes someone a "right wing racist".....wow.

As for hindsight, maybe foresight needs applying before joining/supporting a specific cause.

In respect of sport, whether it was the intention or not, it's the reality, pointed out by many, but it only seems to be resonating now. As I said, there was no need for the off the shelf slogan and something more succinct and relevant could and should have been used.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Uwe Noble » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:00 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:00 pm
An excellent point and one which has been overlooked on this thread until now.

If you want to judge how successful or otherwise an anti-racism message or campaign has been, a good indicator would be to seek the views of the people experiencing the racism. It's very easy to claim it's successful if you're not the one experiencing the racism in the first place. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest the black footballers did not feel it had been as successful as it might have been given their desire to support 'black lives matter'.
It's been successful to the extent that most PL players are non- white and many are black. That seems to have been accepted. Moreover, I think I'm right in saying that the England squad has a majority of black players. Quite successful in that respect wouldn't you say?
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Gordaleman » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:01 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:55 am
So pointing something out to someone makes someone a "right wing racist".....wow.

As for hindsight, maybe foresight needs applying before joining/supporting a specific cause.

In respect of sport, whether it was the intention or not, it's the reality, pointed out by many, but it only seems to be resonating now. As I said, there was no need for the off the shelf slogan and something more succinct and relevant could and should have been used.
We are obviously looking at this from different perspectives. No point in further discussion.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Uwe Noble » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:04 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:55 am
So pointing something out to someone makes someone a "right wing racist".....wow.

As for hindsight, maybe foresight needs applying before joining/supporting a specific cause.

In respect of sport, whether it was the intention or not, it's the reality, pointed out by many, but it only seems to be resonating now. As I said, there was no need for the off the shelf slogan and something more succinct and relevant could and should have been used.
Thank you for very reasonable and balanced contribution.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by MACCA » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:21 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:12 am
Imagine going on a protest and not knowing about the cause you were protesting for?

Simpletons
Dont worry there were quite a few that researched things before putting their name to it.
Sadly although labelled and accused, at least they stuck to their beliefs and didn't get bullied into jumping on the bandwagon where most on board didnt even know where it was going!

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by arise_sir_charge » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:47 pm

Gordaleman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:01 pm
We are obviously looking at this from different perspectives.
.........and of that, I have to say I am glad.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Spijed » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:51 pm

MACCA wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:21 pm
Dont worry there were quite a few that researched things before putting their name to it.
Sadly although labelled and accused, at least they stuck to their beliefs and didn't get bullied into jumping on the bandwagon where most on board didnt even know where it was going!
Well, you'll have to include players in that then. Do you think Ben Mee was bullied into his interview after the Man City game?

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Grumps » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:02 pm

Spijed wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:51 pm
Well, you'll have to include players in that then. Do you think Ben Mee was bullied into his interview after the Man City game?
Certainly not bullied...... Perhaps not fully aware of the facts in regard to the BLM movement
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Clarinetclaret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:07 pm

Rowls wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 pm
Yes. You clearly understand the rules, at least the basics, as evidenced by your post.

Why would they capitalize the word 'black'?

Well, you'd capitalize it if it pertained to an organization. So for example I refer to Blackburn Rovers and I refer to British Polish Chamber or Commerce.

But if I type the words "of course black lives matter" then the words are not capitalized. However, if I refer to the organisation Black Lives Matter then the words are capitalized.

The FA/Premier League statement is bizarre because it capitalizes only the word 'black'. It makes it ambiguous as to whether they are referring to organisation or whether they are simply stating their belief that the lives of black people are important.

You'd think an organisation such as wealthy as the FA could afford (or even know) somebody who capable of drafting a statement that didn't make such rudimentary grammatical errors.
Get a bloody life.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by IanMcL » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:13 pm

Bigbopper wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:13 am
It is time to stop this nonsense at football matches. Some of these players are spending more time on their knees than they are on their feet.
Business as usual, for some then!

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by MACCA » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:20 pm

Spijed wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:51 pm
Well, you'll have to include players in that then. Do you think Ben Mee was bullied into his interview after the Man City game?

Nope not bullied into the interview, spoke well and from.the heart.

However not all footballers would have known fully about the movement and what it represented.
I'm sure not all would have researched it, and I'm even more sure some would have just gone with it for peace and quiet, knowing not doing may have spelt disaster for them.

Can you imagine the wrath 1 would have received if he had chosen to remain stood.
Anyway not the time or the place to repeat the last few weeks discussions.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Caernarfon_Claret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:28 pm

It seems BLM haven't bothered researching "Zionism".

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by FCBurnley » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:33 pm

Act in haste. Repent at leisure

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Caernarfon_Claret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:46 pm

http://www.tabletmag.com.s3-website-us- ... i-genocide

Needless to say, this did not go over well with Jewish groups—including some of Black Lives Matter’s hitherto staunch progressive allies. The rabbinic human rights organization T’ruah, which previously distributed original prayers for Black Lives Matter, and has run anti-occupation educational trips to Israel and the Palestinian territories for years, released a measured yet pointed response:

While we agree with many of the policy recommendations [of Black Lives Matter], we are extremely dismayed at the decision to refer to the Israeli occupation as genocide. We are committed to ending the occupation, which leads to daily human rights violations against Palestinians, and also compromises the safety of Israelis. Our work aims to build a just and secure future for both Israelis and Palestinians, both of whom deserve the same human rights protections as all people.



However, the military occupation does not rise to the level of genocide—a term defined as “the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.” While we agree that the occupation violates the human rights of Palestinians, and has caused too many deaths, the Israeli government is not carrying out a plan intended to wipe out the Palestinians. There is no basis for comparing this situation to the genocides of the 20th century, such as those in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Rwanda, or Armenia, or the Nazi Holocaust in Europe, each of which constituted a calculated plan to destroy specific groups, and each of which killed hundreds of thousands to millions of people. The Black Lives Matter platform also does not address the use of violence by some Palestinians, including the rocket attacks against civilians that Human Rights Watch has classified as a war crime. One can vigorously oppose occupation without resorting to terms such as “genocide,” and without ignoring the human rights violations of terrorist groups such as Hamas.

Edit- this is from 2016 - so The Premier League could have done some research.

Another section of above article is well put, I think.

Peter Beinart, one of the Israeli occupation’s most public Jewish critics, and who recently returned from a civil rights-style protest in Hebron against the occupation, was even less circumspect:

.@Blklivesmatter has every right to criticize Israel. But “genocide”? Bring solidarity. Don’t bring stupid. https://t.co/RNi6UeYRlb



— Peter Beinart (@PeterBeinart) August 4, 2016
Beinart’s upset is understandable. It should go without saying that Israel is not committing genocide against the Palestinians under its control. In fact, that population has burgeoned exponentially since Israel’s founding. As the Palestinian news service Ma’an reported in a celebratory piece in May 2011, in 1948, “the population that year was 1.4 million, the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics said, while at the end of 2010 it was estimated at 11 million globally, and 5.5 million in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.” The numbers have only grown since then. This past February, the Palestinian Bureau of Statistics announced that the global Palestinian population stood at 12.37 million, with half living in Israel and the Palestinian territories.

The implication of these figures is unmistakable. Falsely accusing the state founded by Jews in the ashes of their own genocide of committing genocide is, simply put, a blood libel on a national scale. It is a slur against the 6 million Jews in Israel and the vast majority of world Jewry that supports them. That Black Lives Matter would indulge in such ignorant and incendiary claims undermines its standing as an anti-racist organization.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:55 pm

Top Claret wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:53 am
Proves how thick footballers are supporting a left wing Marxists organisation who would strip them of their wealth.

Politics should be kept out of football. BLM have done nothing but make trouble and stir up hatred that wasn't there. Race relations in this country has been set back 40 years due to this left wing Marxist organisation and the pathetic sheep who have been taken in by it
I do fear this is true.

Sometimes I think the left actually want this, despite their claims. After all, racism is big business for them. Its a massive funding generator and recruitment tool, nobody would suffer more than left wing organisations if racism ceased to be a factor in society.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Somethingfishy » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:12 am
Imagine going on a protest and not knowing about the cause you were protesting for?

Simpletons
It's not as if they were not warned about BLM on here either..but several of the usual suspects were hands over ears shouting "nah nah racist, racist, nah nah". Most seemed to find it difficult to comprehend that not supporting the movement didn't mean you agreed with the general message. One well known poster going to the lengths of creating a list...which was a disgrace in itself.
Finally the penny seems to be dropping about how nefarious they actually are. Why it has taken so long when it was clear what the political aims were is quite frankly remarkable.
Personally i prefer the StopHate campaign. A much less divisive cause.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Grumps » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:41 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 pm
It's not as if they were not warned about BLM on here either..but several of the usual suspects were hands over ears shouting "nah nah racist, racist, nah nah". Most seemed to find it difficult to comprehend that not supporting the movement didn't mean you agreed with the general message. One well known poster going to the lengths of creating a list...which was a disgrace in itself.
Finally the penny seems to be dropping about how nefarious they actually are. Why it has taken so long when it was clear what the political aims were is quite frankly remarkable.
Personally i prefer the StopHate campaign. A much less divisive cause.
Well said

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by FCBurnley » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:48 pm

A week is a long time in football. Just ask Ben Mee

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Rowls » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:51 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 pm
One well known poster going to the lengths of creating a list...which was a disgrace in itself.
Notable by his absence here, so far.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by kentonclaret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:54 pm

There was, indeed, an earlier thread on BLMUK on this forum recently but many did not want to hear the REAL message that this anonymous organisation was putting out.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:35 pm

Im watching and finding it equally as depressing as all the other threads where those on my list like to show their true colours.

I dont agree with everything the BLM UK organisation stands for but I agree with a damn sight more of it than i do with the current govt and especially the views of the ERG/UKIP Brexiteers

The slogan Black Lives Matters is far bigger than one organisation that uses it (many use it) and the thousands of protesters who have marched and spoke out for this cause are in no way compromised by the BLM UK views on Israel or its views on capitalism and power structures that keep the working classes in poverty

There are two problems I see with the posters on here which I find thoroughly depressing.

One is that some of the people on here are clearly racist. Racism has many levels to it so I am not accusing the majority of being overtly racist where they just hate black people or Muslims but more that they hold bias negative views solely linked to someones skin colour or religion.

The second which I think is more prevalent in this thread is that people are letting their political allegiances take precedent over their commitment and desire for equality and a less discriminatory society.

The fight against racism is very much on the same side as the fight for LGBT rights, for supporting refugees, fighting the inequalities of wealth that leaves certain parts of society cut adrift and so naturally this is going to align to more left wing politics

We should however be able to separate the politics from the fight against the racism and bigotry that exists but on here it seems some of the right wing Tory apologists / sycophants seem to just want the opportunity to have a go at the left and if that means discrediting a really powerful and much needed movement then they just dont care

Take football and its adoption of Black Lives Matters for example then why does it have to be specifically linked to one Twitter page. People have gone on about Kick It Out but clubs have been auctioning off the Black Lives Matters strips and the money has not been going to BLM UK but it has been going to the Kick It Out organisation.

BLM UK do not own the slogan and they do not represent everyone and certainly the people marching and protesting were not doing it for the BLM UK agenda. The only reason the BLM UK agenda is so in the spotlight is because the right wing people and the racists have used it to discredit the fight against racism in general. Without the spotlight that has been shone on it by the likes of those on here making out it is at the heart of everything that has gone on over the last 4 weeks then it would still be widely unknown, ignored and irrelevant (apart from the minority on the left who back it) and the slogan Black Lives Matters would signify a much wider and cultural societal change for what this was all about

Despite some of the racist filth (by the minority) pedalled on here, one of the things that gave me hope was that unlike America where racism is so linked to politics with the current Trump/republican regime I thought at least this isn't a left v right problem in this country and the majority from both sides seemed to unite and come together. The attacks seen this week has dispelled that as the fight against racism has now become a political football for the right wingers to attack the left and to attack socialist policies and that is really sad outcome.

Anyhow thats my post and you can knock it all you want cos Im not gonna waste my time arguing with people who want to just discredit what has gone on in the Black Lives Movement protests and associated statements of support. I'll just happily watch from the sidelines with the one small comfort that im just glad my life isn't as bitter and hate filled as some of you on here.

Have fun back slapping each other and reinforcing your view that you are the good guys and I hope you really believe it as its better to be innocently ignorant than knowingly ignoble
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Rowls » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:41 pm

It's best to pour water onto fire.

Not petrol.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:53 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:35 pm
Im watching and finding it equally as depressing as all the other threads where those on my list like to show their true colours.

I dont agree with everything the BLM UK organisation stands for but I agree with a damn sight more of it than i do with the current govt and especially the views of the ERG/UKIP Brexiteers

The slogan Black Lives Matters is far bigger than one organisation that uses it (many use it) and the thousands of protesters who have marched and spoke out for this cause are in no way compromised by the BLM UK views on Israel or its views on capitalism and power structures that keep the working classes in poverty

There are two problems I see with the posters on here which I find thoroughly depressing.

One is that some of the people on here are clearly racist. Racism has many levels to it so I am not accusing the majority of being overtly racist where they just hate black people or Muslims but more that they hold bias negative views solely linked to someones skin colour or religion.

The second which I think is more prevalent in this thread is that people are letting their political allegiances take precedent over their commitment and desire for equality and a less discriminatory society.

The fight against racism is very much on the same side as the fight for LGBT rights, for supporting refugees, fighting the inequalities of wealth that leaves certain parts of society cut adrift and so naturally this is going to align to more left wing politics

We should however be able to separate the politics from the fight against the racism and bigotry that exists but on here it seems some of the right wing Tory apologists / sycophants seem to just want the opportunity to have a go at the left and if that means discrediting a really powerful and much needed movement then they just dont care

Take football and its adoption of Black Lives Matters for example then why does it have to be specifically linked to one Twitter page. People have gone on about Kick It Out but clubs have been auctioning off the Black Lives Matters strips and the money has not been going to BLM UK but it has been going to the Kick It Out organisation.

BLM UK do not own the slogan and they do not represent everyone and certainly the people marching and protesting were not doing it for the BLM UK agenda. The only reason the BLM UK agenda is so in the spotlight is because the right wing people and the racists have used it to discredit the fight against racism in general. Without the spotlight that has been shone on it by the likes of those on here making out it is at the heart of everything that has gone on over the last 4 weeks then it would still be widely unknown, ignored and irrelevant (apart from the minority on the left who back it) and the slogan Black Lives Matters would signify a much wider and cultural societal change for what this was all about

Despite some of the racist filth (by the minority) pedalled on here, one of the things that gave me hope was that unlike America where racism is so linked to politics with the current Trump/republican regime I thought at least this isn't a left v right problem in this country and the majority from both sides seemed to unite and come together. The attacks seen this week has dispelled that as the fight against racism has now become a political football for the right wingers to attack the left and to attack socialist policies and that is really sad outcome.

Anyhow thats my post and you can knock it all you want cos Im not gonna waste my time arguing with people who want to just discredit what has gone on in the Black Lives Movement protests and associated statements of support. I'll just happily watch from the sidelines with the one small comfort that im just glad my life isn't as bitter and hate filled as some of you on here.

Have fun back slapping each other and reinforcing your view that you are the good guys and I hope you really believe it as its better to be innocently ignorant than knowingly ignoble
Condescension unlimited.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:56 pm

Sorry, I forgot to say thanks for thinking of me and thats its good to see Ive still got a place inside a fair few of your heads should I need it sometime

An extra special mention to Rowls for suddenly finding the courage to voice his own opinion rather than relying on the views of Kier Starmer - go on kid now you've found that voice there's no stopping you

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Grumps » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:59 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:35 pm
Im watching and finding it equally as depressing as all the other threads where those on my list like to show their true colours.

I dont agree with everything the BLM UK organisation stands for but I agree with a damn sight more of it than i do with the current govt and especially the views of the ERG/UKIP Brexiteers

The slogan Black Lives Matters is far bigger than one organisation that uses it (many use it) and the thousands of protesters who have marched and spoke out for this cause are in no way compromised by the BLM UK views on Israel or its views on capitalism and power structures that keep the working classes in poverty

There are two problems I see with the posters on here which I find thoroughly depressing.

One is that some of the people on here are clearly racist. Racism has many levels to it so I am not accusing the majority of being overtly racist where they just hate black people or Muslims but more that they hold bias negative views solely linked to someones skin colour or religion.

The second which I think is more prevalent in this thread is that people are letting their political allegiances take precedent over their commitment and desire for equality and a less discriminatory society.

The fight against racism is very much on the same side as the fight for LGBT rights, for supporting refugees, fighting the inequalities of wealth that leaves certain parts of society cut adrift and so naturally this is going to align to more left wing politics

We should however be able to separate the politics from the fight against the racism and bigotry that exists but on here it seems some of the right wing Tory apologists / sycophants seem to just want the opportunity to have a go at the left and if that means discrediting a really powerful and much needed movement then they just dont care

Take football and its adoption of Black Lives Matters for example then why does it have to be specifically linked to one Twitter page. People have gone on about Kick It Out but clubs have been auctioning off the Black Lives Matters strips and the money has not been going to BLM UK but it has been going to the Kick It Out organisation.

BLM UK do not own the slogan and they do not represent everyone and certainly the people marching and protesting were not doing it for the BLM UK agenda. The only reason the BLM UK agenda is so in the spotlight is because the right wing people and the racists have used it to discredit the fight against racism in general. Without the spotlight that has been shone on it by the likes of those on here making out it is at the heart of everything that has gone on over the last 4 weeks then it would still be widely unknown, ignored and irrelevant (apart from the minority on the left who back it) and the slogan Black Lives Matters would signify a much wider and cultural societal change for what this was all about

Despite some of the racist filth (by the minority) pedalled on here, one of the things that gave me hope was that unlike America where racism is so linked to politics with the current Trump/republican regime I thought at least this isn't a left v right problem in this country and the majority from both sides seemed to unite and come together. The attacks seen this week has dispelled that as the fight against racism has now become a political football for the right wingers to attack the left and to attack socialist policies and that is really sad outcome.

Anyhow thats my post and you can knock it all you want cos Im not gonna waste my time arguing with people who want to just discredit what has gone on in the Black Lives Movement protests and associated statements of support. I'll just happily watch from the sidelines with the one small comfort that im just glad my life isn't as bitter and hate filled as some of you on here.

Have fun back slapping each other and reinforcing your view that you are the good guys and I hope you really believe it as its better to be innocently ignorant than knowingly ignoble
"not bitter and hate filled" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by tiger76 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:09 pm

I haven't been following this thread, however i noticed yet again tonight, that prior to the Bournemouth game as well as taking the knee, some of the black players were performing the black power salute, that isn't helping convert people to their cause, and is not necessary, equality absolutely no issue with that at all, but why the need to perform that salute, it's actions such as these, and the violence associated with the BLM movement that's damaging their campaign i'm afraid.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Caernarfon_Claret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:26 pm

Just so people know, I treat everyone as my equal, regardless of age, gender, ethnicity.
I don't like the idea of "races" because I think it's not only inaccurate but also misleading.

I accept racism is the term we use, even though again it is inaccurate and I believe unhelpful.

I believe in positive discrimination, but only as a short term option, in order to counteract existing discrimination - maintaining the status quo is turning a blind eye to discrimination, but long term equitable solutions need to be found.

I am politically neutral, but will share ideas that various people have esposed, in order to promote conversation, which I think is important.

I don't every like to make assumptions about people's motives.

I think we have a modern social media problem where everything is reduced to soundbites, and nuanced conversation appears impossible.

Unfortunately antisemitic ideas espoused by Hitler and others seems to be reemerging and some seem to be trying to downplay it.

What's wrong with using the term Cultural Marxism?


From the late 1990s, the Frankfurt School has been the object of a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory that identifies the school as the origin of an ongoing academic and intellectual movement, referred to by the theory's proponents as "Cultural Marxism", which intends to undermine and destroy Western culture and values.[49] According to the conspiracy theory, the Frankfurt School and other Marxist theorists were part of a conspiracy to attack Western society by undermining traditionalist conservatism and Christianity using the 1960s counterculture, multiculturalism, progressive politics and political correctness.[50][51][52]

Sound familiar?

Jewish Bolshevism?

During the 1920s, Hitler declared that the mission of the Nazi movement was to destroy "Jewish Bolshevism".[25] Hitler asserted that the "three vices" of "Jewish Marxism" were democracy, pacifism and internationalism,[26] and that the Jews were behind Bolshevism, communism and Marxism.[27]

Copying and pasting from Wikipedia for expediency.

BLM UK alleged use of antisemitic language is either unintentional or intentional.

I can't say which.

As already mentioned the Black Lives Matter platform launched in August 2016 accused Israel of genocide against Palestinians.

The use of the term "Zionism" fails to acknowledge that there are many types of "Zionism" of all political hues, some of which are appalled by Israeli government's occupation of West Bank and Gaza and continued expansion of settlements.

However I think Defunding of Police is ambiguous and not as confrontational as the Zionism thing.

In the sense that yes you reduce some funding of Police in order to fund programs that might be far more effective at reducing crime, and actually build confidence in certain communities.

Intelligent use of available funds is a goal surely, but deciding what is intelligent use of funds might be difficult, particularly if it becomes political football.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Bigbopper » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:31 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:09 pm
I haven't been following this thread, however i noticed yet again tonight, that prior to the Bournemouth game as well as taking the knee, some of the black players were performing the black power salute, that isn't helping convert people to their cause, and is not necessary, equality absolutely no issue with that at all, but why the need to perform that salute, it's actions such as these, and the violence associated with the BLM movement that's damaging their campaign i'm afraid.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by gtclaret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:37 pm

The BLM website does not say defund the police, it says abolish the police, abolish prisons.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by aggi » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:37 pm

Rowls wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:58 pm
This was never clear.

In fact, given that the FA have adopted the stance (literally, "taking a knee"), #BLM and #BlackLivesMatter hashtags, name and slogan of Black Lives Matter it was a de facto endorsement of the Black Lives Matter movement. They have even capitalized the name that has appeared on every player's shirt which further strengthened this apparent endorsement.

Only today have they started to subtlely but distinctly backtrack on this.
I think a lot of people did understand it that way but a minority, some who had genuine concerns and some who just wanted any excuse to pick at any drive for equality, viewed it otherwise. The FA/EPL probably, possibly naively, hadn't anticipated that.

Fortunately the FA/EPL have clarified this so I would have assumed that all those who were previously questioning it will now be fully behind it but that doesn't seem to be the case.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by gandhisflipflop » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:01 pm

The PL were jumping on the bandwagon (naively or not) which in my opinion because it was good for business, now the true colours of BLM are coming to the surface (not that it was difficult to see through them anyway) they have realised what a hole they have got themselves into and they are now trying to save face.

On a personal level. I'm extremely uncomfortable about an organisation going around creating violence in times of pandemics, causing anarchy and especially doing salutes which more on a level of Naziism, especially when a lot of its supporters display the tolerance levels of Nazi supporters to those who don't agree with their view.

Just my opinion however.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Top Claret » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:04 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:09 pm
I haven't been following this thread, however i noticed yet again tonight, that prior to the Bournemouth game as well as taking the knee, some of the black players were performing the black power salute, that isn't helping convert people to their cause, and is not necessary, equality absolutely no issue with that at all, but why the need to perform that salute, it's actions such as these, and the violence associated with the BLM movement that's damaging their campaign i'm afraid.
Personally find the fist racist and offensive, no different than the Nazi parties salute.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by FCBurnley » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:06 pm

Can’t imagine the PL wanting to see players using the black power closed fist salute when kneeling. One step too far for many people including me.

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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:07 pm

Aggi, don't be too despondent yet.
This distancing is a start to people getting more behind it.
You want people to be fully behind it but that will never happen because there are racists. However focusing on racists, as many do, will not bring people onside.
My strong belief is that the less decent people are jumped upon as being racist when they are not, the more these decent people will be willing to get behind it.
These decent people outnumber the racists by a distance. I hope you believe that because you might be surprised how much progress could be achieved with that understanding.
While I was upset of the treatment of Churchill's statue I would be in support of the idea in Plymouth, highlighted today, of a statue to the black footballer deprived of an England cap in the 20/30's because he was black.
In my view I believe it would be racist to fight against that.
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Re: FA Distance Themselves From BLM Movement

Post by Somethingfishy » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:19 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:35 pm
Im watching and finding it equally as depressing as all the other threads where those on my list like to show their true colours.

I dont agree with everything the BLM UK organisation stands for but I agree with a damn sight more of it than i do with the current govt and especially the views of the ERG/UKIP Brexiteers

The slogan Black Lives Matters is far bigger than one organisation that uses it (many use it) and the thousands of protesters who have marched and spoke out for this cause are in no way compromised by the BLM UK views on Israel or its views on capitalism and power structures that keep the working classes in poverty

There are two problems I see with the posters on here which I find thoroughly depressing.

One is that some of the people on here are clearly racist. Racism has many levels to it so I am not accusing the majority of being overtly racist where they just hate black people or Muslims but more that they hold bias negative views solely linked to someones skin colour or religion.

The second which I think is more prevalent in this thread is that people are letting their political allegiances take precedent over their commitment and desire for equality and a less discriminatory society.

The fight against racism is very much on the same side as the fight for LGBT rights, for supporting refugees, fighting the inequalities of wealth that leaves certain parts of society cut adrift and so naturally this is going to align to more left wing politics

We should however be able to separate the politics from the fight against the racism and bigotry that exists but on here it seems some of the right wing Tory apologists / sycophants seem to just want the opportunity to have a go at the left and if that means discrediting a really powerful and much needed movement then they just dont care

Take football and its adoption of Black Lives Matters for example then why does it have to be specifically linked to one Twitter page. People have gone on about Kick It Out but clubs have been auctioning off the Black Lives Matters strips and the money has not been going to BLM UK but it has been going to the Kick It Out organisation.

BLM UK do not own the slogan and they do not represent everyone and certainly the people marching and protesting were not doing it for the BLM UK agenda. The only reason the BLM UK agenda is so in the spotlight is because the right wing people and the racists have used it to discredit the fight against racism in general. Without the spotlight that has been shone on it by the likes of those on here making out it is at the heart of everything that has gone on over the last 4 weeks then it would still be widely unknown, ignored and irrelevant (apart from the minority on the left who back it) and the slogan Black Lives Matters would signify a much wider and cultural societal change for what this was all about

Despite some of the racist filth (by the minority) pedalled on here, one of the things that gave me hope was that unlike America where racism is so linked to politics with the current Trump/republican regime I thought at least this isn't a left v right problem in this country and the majority from both sides seemed to unite and come together. The attacks seen this week has dispelled that as the fight against racism has now become a political football for the right wingers to attack the left and to attack socialist policies and that is really sad outcome.

Anyhow thats my post and you can knock it all you want cos Im not gonna waste my time arguing with people who want to just discredit what has gone on in the Black Lives Movement protests and associated statements of support. I'll just happily watch from the sidelines with the one small comfort that im just glad my life isn't as bitter and hate filled as some of you on here.

Have fun back slapping each other and reinforcing your view that you are the good guys and I hope you really believe it as its better to be innocently ignorant than knowingly ignoble
I have yet to see any post on here that is out and out racist. It wouldn't be tolerated by the mods or the vast majority on here. So then it all comes down to your judgement of what racism actually is. Now if supporting another anti-racist/hate cause other than BLM is being racist to you then fine. I think you have a very over-tuned idea of what racism actually is. Almost to the point that if you don't treat BLM almost as a cult then you are labelled. Fortunately the more sane amongst us have a more rational idea of what it is...and it isn't just someone with an alternative view to you.

People (not just the right...and im not on the right) have every justified reason to call them out and it isn't wrong or racist to point out the massive political side issues that BLM has. It isn't the only anti-racist movement out there either but it is certainly a la mode at the moment. The press have made sure of that. It is causing more division than good. At least the FA and people like Matt Le Tissier who were blindly following it have woken up. Now for the rest of you indoctrinated into the cult.
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