Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

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aggi
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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by aggi » Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:05 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:16 pm
Hi aggi, have you a source? Doing something more frequently doesn't suggest to me that the new ventilators would be less complex. Not sure what you mean by "sacrificed from those specs."
I'll try and find it again when I'm at a computer.

Basically a ventilator is a very complicated machine, the plan was to produce more basic ones that could be manufactured quicker and by companies who may have engineering expertise but not ventilator production expertise. The latest indicators seem to be that this plan didn't really work with the basic machines not up to the job.
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Paul Waine
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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:14 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:09 pm

This exactly what Alison Pittard has done and is the basis for the whole article. She is a highly regarded and respected expert in her field and there has been no denial from anyone in the govt around what she has stated

If youre argument is there is no proof apart from her unchallenged word then we're in the realms of Trump territory and fake news. If thats your position then I cannot argue against it I just know how worthless you value senior sources and experts integrity and honesty

Ive no idea what you are going on about Germany and EU procurement towards me for as it has nothing to do with what i've argued. My assertion is simple that the govt went against expert advice for some reason or another and that course of action has proved to be the wrong one
DA, I've no doubt you understand that Alison Pittard (and others) offered advice to the gov't on the specs for ventilators, and, you believe that the gov't ignored that advice. What I'm asking is was Pittard (and others) among the group of experts that NHS (or PHE, or other bodies) were accustomed to going to for advice on ventilator specs? Or was Pittard in an "outside group" and there was also another group of experts (or maybe, "non-experts") that had the role of providing advice? There's a regulator who approves ventilator for use. Is the issue that the regulator thought they should stick with the previous specification? Was there some other institutional arrangement for deciding the spec for ventilators? Was that body is a rush and didn't feel they had the time to explore other designs? What would have happened if the situation was non-urgent?

You are concluding "ignored." I'm asking was it "ignored" or was it that there was another path for the gov't to be advised and that is where the "spec that needs to be changed" originated?

Why do I mention Germany and EU? We've heard many times that Germany has more ventilators, alongside the different path of covid-19 in Germany. Similarly, we've heard that EU arranged a ventilator procurement group. So, what is the spec that the EU is ordering? Does it match the either of the UK specs? And, what are the specs for the German ventilators. Where do they fit in Pittard's views? If one or other of Germany and EU are following the spec that Pittard advises then, yes, we have things to learn in UK medical system. And, if not, we probably continue to have things to learn about being open to hearing all the best advice. I think you know, I'm not a "great fan" of centralised systems....

Anyway, interesting discussion. Let's hope we can get the ventilators that the patients need.

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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by DavidEyresLeftFoot » Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:57 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:37 pm

I'm not looking for spin, I'm not trying to spin. I'm looking for collaboration of the claim that the "ventilator experts" have been telling the UK gov't for the past several weeks that they've ordered the wrong spec and the UK gov't was ignoring them. That's what you've claimed, that's what you are saying is "wasted 4 weeks." Where is your evidence?
I wrote about this at length on the other thread. I work as a consultant anaesthetist and therefore would be what you call a ventilator expert, as would every anaesthetist/intensivist in the country. It was clear from the beginning that inviting firms with no prior experience of making ventilators would not result in the manufacture of highly complex machines that we’re used to using. This isn’t some new quirk of Covid 19 that’s altered the technology required. There are different degrees of ventilation equipment which although work in similar ways, do have varying degrees of complexity.

The way we have been able to increase ICU capacity so much is by utilising anaesthetic machine ventilators from theatres. These are perfectly functional machines which can be used in the early stages of the disease but they’re not designed for long term use. Our machines are brand new and pretty sophisticated but some hospitals have really rudimentary machines in theatres. None of these however will offer the same range of modes of ventilation as an ICU ventilator and that particularly matters when it comes to the patients starting to make an effort to breathe for themselves. In the initial phase we’re doing all the mechanical work for the patient. The current trajectory is that we’re needing to ventilate these patients for several weeks - so the modes of mechanical ventilation available really matter. They also have other issues in terms of how the gas flow is utilised which doesn’t happen with ICU ventilators.

Ventilators are highly complex pieces of kit and you can’t just decide to suddenly make them. Dyson etc were only ever going to be making simplistic machines from scratch (more simplistic than even our anaesthetic machines) so it’s come as a surprise to no one in our profession that this initiative has fallen flat on its face. We should have been financially supporting existing ventilation production companies to scale up production. Either that or have sufficient number of staffed ICU beds in the country to start with.
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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:06 pm

DavidEyresLeftFoot wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:57 am
I wrote about this at length on the other thread. I work as a consultant anaesthetist and therefore would be what you call a ventilator expert, as would every anaesthetist/intensivist in the country. It was clear from the beginning that inviting firms with no prior experience of making ventilators would not result in the manufacture of highly complex machines that we’re used to using. This isn’t some new quirk of Covid 19 that’s altered the technology required. There are different degrees of ventilation equipment which although work in similar ways, do have varying degrees of complexity.

The way we have been able to increase ICU capacity so much is by utilising anaesthetic machine ventilators from theatres. These are perfectly functional machines which can be used in the early stages of the disease but they’re not designed for long term use. Our machines are brand new and pretty sophisticated but some hospitals have really rudimentary machines in theatres. None of these however will offer the same range of modes of ventilation as an ICU ventilator and that particularly matters when it comes to the patients starting to make an effort to breathe for themselves. In the initial phase we’re doing all the mechanical work for the patient. The current trajectory is that we’re needing to ventilate these patients for several weeks - so the modes of mechanical ventilation available really matter. They also have other issues in terms of how the gas flow is utilised which doesn’t happen with ICU ventilators.

Ventilators are highly complex pieces of kit and you can’t just decide to suddenly make them. Dyson etc were only ever going to be making simplistic machines from scratch (more simplistic than even our anaesthetic machines) so it’s come as a surprise to no one in our profession that this initiative has fallen flat on its face. We should have been financially supporting existing ventilation production companies to scale up production. Either that or have sufficient number of staffed ICU beds in the country to start with.
Thanks DavidEyresLeftFoot, I welcome and appreciate your very value contribution to this thread.

Is it fair to feel that the reason Dyson and other non-medically experienced firms partnered with firms with medical experience was a way to address the gaps that they would have in not having medical experience? Were they forming partnerships with firms with the required medical experience or where they, maybe as a result of their haste, partnering with firms that themselves didn't have the right medical experience and expertise?

In terms of the initial specification that the gov't (the gov't advisors) put out for ventilators. Were there errors in these specs? or are the clinicians now learning more about what is required to treat covid-19 patients in ICU and so are correctly upgrading the specifications?

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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:37 pm

A lot to read in today's The Times re ventilators and related treatments. I'll add the headlines of these articles for now.

Coronavirus ventilators given green light for production

‘Proning’ could keep coronavirus patients out of intensive care


How proning may help coronavirus recovery

Maybe there will be discussion on ventilators in today's press briefing - or maybe it will all be about extending the lockdown period.

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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by IanMcL » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:14 pm

Government leading the people up the garden path as first thought.

Bloody honesty is required at these times, from whomever is 'on charge' and yet we are fed the usual political eyelash as the political advisers hold reigns still and live in a different world.

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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by aggi » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:33 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:37 pm
A lot to read in today's The Times re ventilators and related treatments. I'll add the headlines of these articles for now.

Coronavirus ventilators given green light for production
Just read this article. It looks like this was an existing ventilator manufacturer using pretty much an existing model and utilising additional capacity at other factories. Seems a wise way to go rather than reinventing the wheel.

Oxford based Penlon’s production line have been replicated at a number of sites across the UK including at the Advanced Manufacturing Research Facility next door to Airbus Broughton.

Also suggestions that the spec changes may be to limit the number of machines they end up ordering “The specifications have changed a couple of times,” one industry source said. “We’re not clear if they have learnt something new about the disease or they don’t need as many ventilators as they said in the first place.”

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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by DavidEyresLeftFoot » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:38 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:06 pm

Is it fair to feel that the reason Dyson and other non-medically experienced firms partnered with firms with medical experience was a way to address the gaps that they would have in not having medical experience? Were they forming partnerships with firms with the required medical experience or where they, maybe as a result of their haste, partnering with firms that themselves didn't have the right medical experience and expertise?

In terms of the initial specification that the gov't (the gov't advisors) put out for ventilators. Were there errors in these specs? or are the clinicians now learning more about what is required to treat covid-19 patients in ICU and so are correctly upgrading the specifications?
There's been lots of examples of companies changing their production lines across all different needs during this crisis - including visors, hand gel etc. That obviously is to be applauded. However I do think ventilators is a much more nuanced and technical manufacturing problem. It appears many of these new technical departments are trying to design from scratch rather than adapt production lines to make existing designs. The only known ventilator company I'm familiar with that's been involved is Penlon - who it looks today as though they've had a design approved. The only Penlon machines I've ever used are some very basic theatre ventilators that we got rid of about a year ago so I'd be interested to see how they've improved their design. I'm not aware of any theatres/ICU in the country that routinely uses Penlon equipment especially for ICU patients. There may be questions asked today about ventilators but it has to be said that people like the CMO are in no way familiar with the technicalities of this field. Again I'd be interested to know who they've had to advise on this. The president of the Intensive Care Society (who's criticised the current plan) might have been a good place to start.

In terms of the specification I've just sat down and read the government guidelines and it does confirm my suspicions. First point to mention though is that Covid doesn't present any new challenges for us in terms of the mechanics of ventilation. We've not been caught out by the disease and had to invent new technology. The specifications however do seem pretty basic and they expressly state that any machine designs submitted won't have continued registration after the pandemic is over. It's a 25 page document and I won't labour all of the points but a few things stand out:

- they only have to provide one mode of ventilation and it's likely this will be a MANDATORY mode ie. the machine does all the work. As I mentioned this is fine for the first few days but less useful later down the line. Machines that synchronise with the patients own breathing efforts are what we need particularly as patients are requiring ventilation for 2-3 weeks.

- there is only a requirement to produce quite specific parameters eg. including the actual volume of gas delivered, the ratio of time spent in inspiration/expiration. These are really quite tightly defined with narrow ranges and don't give you very much scope to tailor the ventilation to specific patients. This also means higher risk of lung injury to the patient (which we know occurs with mechanical ventilation at the best of times).

- CO2 clearance: basic level is to have soda lime systems to clear CO2. This is fine and is what theatre ventilators need but again is a finite resource and we're already running out of this. The sophisticated ICU ventilators don't need this and ICU nurses aren't familiar with having to manage the implications of this. That's not their fault as they don't use these types of machines usually but we've seen a fair few examples of this already

- bog standard machines using oxygen as the driving gas ie. not for delivery to the patient but to power the parts of the ventilator that squeeze gas into the patients. Oxygen supplies are a worry currently.

So overall they've gone for the lowest spec to get production going but it's likely they've set the targets wrong for what's required. Yes the machines will work - much as during the polio epidemic of the past we had medical students hand ventilating patients. It works but it's not ideal. We have lots of more simplistic ventilators (but better than what's being proposed) already in our institution. I'm struggling to see how this policy improves things.

Of course the elephant in the room is staffing. A ventilator does not equal an ICU bed. An ICU bed is a bed with a ventilator plus a highly trained ICU nurse, as well as appropriate monitoring, blood pressure and kidney support as required. The current national model is one ICU nurse to 6 patients (with non-ICU ward nurse support) and one ICU consultant to 42 patients. No increase in equipment, whatever the standard finally produced, gets away from this inescapable fact. With one of the lowest ICU bed numbers in Europe I'm afraid this comes down to a policy decision.
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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by DavidEyresLeftFoot » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:46 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:37 pm


‘Proning’ could keep coronavirus patients out of intensive care


How proning may help coronavirus recovery
Again proning isn't a new concept. It works by improving the match up of areas of the lung that are better expanded (and therefore ventilated) with areas that have higher blood flow. Therefore oxygen delivery improves. It's had such attention because medics in the earlier outbreak from China/Italy noticed that patients were very responsive to it. We normally reserve it for patients with very high oxygen requirements but with Covid we've been doing it much earlier. The trouble is you can only leave someone face down for 16 hours before turning them back over and these patients have need turning many times. It's therefore extremely labour intensive and not without it's own risks and complications. The use of proning in non-ventilated patients is a new one but people have reported using it in patients on non-invasive ventilation ie. CPAP masks. It seems to be helping in these patients also but I'm not sure there's any data to back up whether it's preventing patients needing invasive ventilation.
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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:00 pm


aggi
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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by aggi » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:30 am

Well that was an inauspicious, but not entirely unexpected, end to that story

BBC News - Dyson Covid-19 ventilators are 'no longer required'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52409359

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Re: Dyson and Hospital in the same sentence...

Post by IanMcL » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:03 am

IanMcL wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:14 pm
Government leading the people up the garden path as first thought.

Bloody honesty is required at these times, from whomever is 'on charge' and yet we are fed the usual political eyelash as the political advisers hold reigns still and live in a different world.
Repeat!

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