VK's views on diversity in football

[dougcollins]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63407202

[helmclaret]

Always gets it right when he speaks publicly, does VK.

Waiting for the ridiculous reaction on here now...

[GodIsADeeJay81]

He's right in what he says though.

[Middle-agedClaret]

Just for Helm - so he’s not disappointed.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhv3RaCWNs

[Steve1956]

Quite right,it's so good having a high profile intelligent man managing our club....long may it continue

[helmclaret]

Didn't I say that?

I'm referring to all the equality experts on here.

[Indecisive]

Well done Kompany. An honest and thoughtful answer, but is anyone really surprised by that?

Can’t help feeling we have been astoundingly lucky going from Dyche to Kompany. Both really do seem to be great managers and thoroughly decent people.

[NoFixedAbode_Claret]

Well spoken VK. I'm proud that you front up our club like this

[Bosscat]

Got to admire VK

[Clarets4me]

Interesting to see the statistic that 43% of EPL and 34% of EFL players are " Black " or " BAME " ... compared to 15.2% of the UK's population in general.

[Zooniverser]

Interesting to see the statistic that 43% of EPL and 34% of EFL players are " Black " or " BAME " ... compared to 15.2% of the UK's population in general.

Hi Clarets4me,
I think it would be more relevant if the UK population statistic was compared to the mix of players of UK origin only.
Even then there will be many different factors such as the economic conditions of sectors of society which produce the most professional footballers.

[Beagle]

Very well said, what an eloquent and admirable man as well as clearly having a very intelligent footballing mind- we are so lucky. I feel so proud that we are one of the outrageously small number of clubs in the leagues with a black manager.

[Clarets4me]

Hi Clarets4me,
I think it would be more relevant if the UK population statistic was compared to the mix of players of UK origin only.
Even then there will be many different factors such as the economic conditions of sectors of society which produce the most professional footballers.

Absolutely agree .... my comment was slightly " tongue in cheek " as I'm sure there are those of an uncharitable mind who'd be asking for an FA or Government enquiry, asking for recommendations as to how the game can better reflect the Nation's makeup as a whole ..

[Devils_Advocate]

Absolutely agree .... my comment was slightly " tongue in cheek " as I'm sure there are those of an uncharitable mind who'd be asking for an FA or Government enquiry, asking for recommendations as to how the game can better reflect the Nation's makeup as a whole ..

Possibly but probably the main reason we have an over representation of black / BAME people in football is to do with the over representation of the working class in football of which the black / BAME community just happens to be overrepresented in.

Im sure the black / BAME community would much rather that their community was more equally represented in terms of wealth, affluence and social economic standing even if it meant having lesser share of professional footballers

Managers on the other hand are almost exclusively made up of ex professional footballers so its clear there is a real issue somewhere within the path from footballer into coaching and management for Black / BAME players which is the very point VK is trying to address

[Swizzlestick]

Well done Kompany. An honest and thoughtful answer, but is anyone really surprised by that?

Can’t help feeling we have been astoundingly lucky going from Dyche to Kompany. Both really do seem to be great managers and thoroughly decent people.

Totally agree. Different personalities in some ways but both absolute class. It runs through the club when you have a leader like that and everybody reaps the benefits.

He’s absolutely right here of course.

[Penwortham_Claret]

I’d be interested to know how many white owners there are in the Premier League, I would suspect that there are more ‘non white’ owners.

[Devils_Advocate]

I’d be interested to know how many white owners there are in the Premier League, I would suspect that there are more ‘non white’ owners.

What about board members which is where the decisions are made on what VK is talking about? Check it out and let us know what you think

https://theathletic.com/3441998/2022/07 ... ue-owners/

[Big Vinny K]

I’d be interested to know how many white owners there are in the Premier League, I would suspect that there are more ‘non white’ owners.

There’s more white owners but not really sure of your point.
As DA has said it’s more about the boardrooms that VK is referring to. The chairman, the board of directors. Very few black or Asian or indeed women sit on these boards or are in charge of the day to day running and decision making of the clubs. Look at our own club for a start and our board of directors down the years. And we are not an outlier as a club.

[Rowls]

I’ve not clicked the link because I’m not interested in the question being asked but as has been posted it’s nice to know we have an articulate and intelligent manager.

[LeadBelly]

Interesting to see the statistic that 43% of EPL and 34% of EFL players are " Black " or " BAME " ... compared to 15.2% of the UK's population in general.

The 15% of the population who are BAME are mostly Asian though. It's about 11% Asian and 5% black.

If the 20 Prem managers were representative of the population at large that would give 1 black & 2 Asian.

[Rowls]

The 15% of the population who are BAME are mostly Asian though. It's about 11% Asian and 5% black.

If the 20 Prem managers were representative of the population at large that would give 1 black & 2 Asian.

If premier league footballers were representative of the population at large we’d have to lay off 223 of them.

Harsh, if you ask me.

BTW I have done the maths for this following your own metrics. It’s based on there being 557 PL footballers, 43% of whom identify as black, and the U.K. population being recorded by google at 3% black.

[Rileybobs]

If premier league footballers were representative of the population at large we’d have to lay off 223 of them.

Harsh, if you ask me.

BTW I have done the maths for this following your own metrics. It’s based on there being 557 PL footballers, 43% of whom identify as black, and the U.K. population being recorded by google at 3% black.

Bit weird that you’re not interested in diversity in football when it’s relating to the under representation of black people in certain areas of the game, but then appear very interested in the subject when it’s relating to the over representation of black people in other areas.

[Rowls]

Bit weird that you’re not interested in diversity in football when it’s relating to the under representation of black people in certain areas of the game, but then appear very interested in the subject when it’s relating to the over representation of black people in other areas.

Maybe I phrased that earlier post badly.

I’m not interested in VK’s personal opinion. I’m just happy to have a competent, intelligent and articulate man at the helm.

I clearly care very passionately about equality as evidenced by my posts.

[Down_Rover]

Diversity takes decades to achieve and it is great to see it happening in the UK. I suspect there are more coloured players in our first team than we have ever had and they have proved their worth to the Club

Long may it continue but the transformation to fully achieved diversity may take a decade or two more. The train has left the station and going in the right direction and hopefully, as a nation, we can set an example for the rest of the world

[Devils_Advocate]

Maybe I phrased that earlier post badly.

I’m not interested in VK’s personal opinion. I’m just happy to have a competent, intelligent and articulate man at the helm.

I clearly care very passionately about equality as evidenced by my posts.

I explained that the over representation of black footballers is due to their over representation of being lower down the economical scale. If you really care about equality this is what you would be more interested in trying to address.

[Rowls]

Bit weird that you’re not interested in diversity in football when it’s relating to the under representation of black people in certain areas of the game, but then appear very interested in the subject when it’s relating to the over representation of black people in other areas.

And just to challenge your daft inference that I’m “interested in the subject when it’s relating to the over representation of black people in other areas”: That is completely false.

The example I gave in my post was merely an example designed to show what is the self evident folly of such a policy.

I was being deliberately understated in my tone when I said I thought it “harsh”; I actually find the idea of appointee racial quotas to be morally wrong, divisive and monstrous.

I’m happy to spell this out at any time. If you haven’t understood it properly let me put it another way: I’ll be happy if all the registered 557 premier league players were black just as long as they were there on their footballing merit.

[Rowls]

I explained that the over representation of black footballers is due to their over representation of being lower down the economical scale. If you really care about equality this is what you would be more interested in trying to address.

I’m all for equality of opportunity.

I’m supremely sceptical about quotas, targets and measures that enforce an artificial equality of outcome.

We ought to be quietly proud of how well black players have progressed in the U.K. since the 70s and 80s when the pioneers broke down genuine barriers.

[Devils_Advocate]

And just to challenge your daft inference that I’m “interested in the subject when it’s relating to the over representation of black people in other areas”: That is completely false.

The example I gave in my post was merely an example designed to show what is the self evident folly of such a policy.

I was being deliberately understated in my tone when I said I thought it “harsh”; I actually find the idea of appointee racial quotas to be morally wrong, divisive and monstrous.

I’m happy to spell this out at any time. If you haven’t understood it properly let me put it another way: I’ll be happy if all the registered 557 premier league players were black just as long as they were there on their footballing merit.

Your example and post just as the one you responded to conflates two very different topics and its a common tactic people use when deflecting discussions that challenge us around the prejudices that exist in areas of sport such as the area VK is discussing.

You may not have done this with intention but stupid conversations about simple stats relating to player representation is in itself a way of belittling / down playing the real important issues that VK raises.

By all means you can not care like in your first post but facilitating the discussion about players isnt helpful and isnt reflective of someone who cares about equality

[Devils_Advocate]

I’m all for equality of opportunity.

I’m supremely sceptical about quotas, targets and measures that enforce an artificial equality of outcome.

We ought to be quietly proud of how well black players have progressed in the U.K. since the 70s and 80s when the pioneers broke down genuine barriers.

We should but we should also be concerned about why that doesnt translate into coaching and management roles. Nobody has mentioned quota's or targets but just highlighted a worrying stat and suggested maybe work is needed in this area

[Rowls]

I explained that the over representation of black footballers is due to their over representation of being lower down the economical scale. If you really care about equality this is what you would be more interested in trying to address.

A final point for tonight, DA.

You’ve got a reasonable theory about the social strata producing more footballers at working class level, hence more black footballers.

It’s intuitively sensible even though it’s just theory at this stage.

The part where we might differ is on how to “fix” this disparity.

You might want to lift black people out of poverty? Alternatively you might want to level down white pepper with punitive races?

But for me, there’s nothing here to “fix” whatsoever. 43% of PL footballers are black and I salute them for their talent, dedication and skill.

[Rileybobs]

And just to challenge your daft inference that I’m “interested in the subject when it’s relating to the over representation of black people in other areas”: That is completely false.

The example I gave in my post was merely an example designed to show what is the self evident folly of such a policy.

I was being deliberately understated in my tone when I said I thought it “harsh”; I actually find the idea of appointee racial quotas to be morally wrong, divisive and monstrous.

I’m happy to spell this out at any time. If you haven’t understood it properly let me put it another way: I’ll be happy if all the registered 557 premier league players were black just as long as they were there on their footballing merit.

No daft inference from me. Just pointing out I find it weird you said you weren’t interested in one angle of the discussion but took a great interest in the opposing angle.

You’ve since admitted that you phrased it badly so no need to call my remarks daft or false for pointing it out.

[dsr]

I explained that the over representation of black footballers is due to their over representation of being lower down the economical scale. If you really care about equality this is what you would be more interested in trying to address.

Surely you didn''t expect people to take you seriously? Most of us have learnt by now that you deliberately post rubbish to wind people up. Wasn't this one of those posts?

But on the (possibly wild) assumption that you're being serious for once, according to government stats, 45% of white households have gross income less than £30k per year, compared with 54% of black households. Which, averaged out over the population, means that 38% of households are poor and white, 3% are poor and black. Still not enough to account for the discrepancy.

I have always believed that the reason black men are (so to speak) over-represented in top level football is because, at the very top level, taking one thing with another, they're better at it.

[Rowls]

We should but we should also be concerned about why that doesnt translate into coaching and management roles. Nobody has mentioned quota's or targets but just highlighted a worrying stat and suggested maybe work is needed in this area

Oh, it’s all so sensible from you tonight!

Here’s my theory why the high percentages of players doesn’t (at least yet) translate into management roles. There’s a couple of things to consider:

1. Management is an old boys network. We’re still working through the players of the 90s in management roles.

2. Football (most sport) is the ultimate in meritocracy. You’ll have social networks within squads but it won’t make you a better player.

Footballers are picked far more on merit than managers are. You can’t become a footballer because you’re good at “networking”. However, being a good networker within the “old school” network of ex pros who are current managers is a major benefit.

The insistence of many clubs of choosing their managers from this shallow pool has actually benefitted us enormously over the past 20 years. We’ve often had the sense to look beyond the obvious candidates and appoint with a french look. The only managed who fit the “old boys” stereotype who got a job a Burnley in spite of his ability was Brian Laws.

It’s a problem that black people aren’t represented better within society, certainly. We simply disagree on how best to redress these imbalances.

[Devils_Advocate]

Surely you didn''t expect people to take you seriously? Most of us have learnt by now that you deliberately post rubbish to wind people up. Wasn't this one of those posts?

But on the (possibly wild) assumption that you're being serious for once, according to government stats, 45% of white households have gross income less than £30k per year, compared with 54% of black households. Which, averaged out over the population, means that 38% of households are poor and white, 3% are poor and black. Still not enough to account for the discrepancy.

I have always believed that the reason black men are (so to speak) over-represented in top level football is because, at the very top level, taking one thing with another, they're better at it.

There are many factors and ultimately it is cos they are better but blacks are over represented in football in a way that are not in sports like Rugby, Hockey, Swimming, Tennis is because football is a much more accessible sport and is over represented by the working class

As for talking rubbish that is often me parodying the real nonsense that people like you spout when you are attempting to be deadly serious.

[Rowls]

No daft inference from me. Just pointing out I find it weird you said you weren’t interested in one angle of the discussion but took a great interest in the opposing angle.

You’ve since admitted that you phrased it badly so no need to call my remarks daft or false for pointing it out.

It felt very much like you were deliberately drawing false inferences from what I’d said.

My poor phrasing is not relayed to the inference you drew in any shape or form.

[Devils_Advocate]

Oh, it’s all so sensible from you tonight!

Here’s my theory why the high percentages of players doesn’t (at least yet) translate into management roles. There’s a couple of things to consider:

1. Management is an old boys network. We’re still working through the players of the 90s in management roles.

2. Football (most sport) is the ultimate in meritocracy. You’ll have social networks within squads but it won’t make you a better player.

Footballers are picked far more on merit than managers are. You can’t become a footballer because you’re good at “networking”. However, being a good networker within the “old school” network of ex pros who are current managers is a major benefit.

The insistence of many clubs of choosing their managers from this shallow pool has actually benefitted us enormously over the past 20 years. We’ve often had the sense to look beyond the obvious candidates and appoint with a french look. The only managed who fit the “old boys” stereotype who got a job a Burnley in spite of his ability was Brian Laws.

It’s a problem that black people aren’t represented better within society, certainly. We simply disagree on how best to redress these imbalances.

Rowls I agree with you on this post completely. I might have to retire this username and start again. Thankyou for a sensible response and have a good night

[Rowls]

Oh, it’s all so sensible from you tonight!

Here’s my theory why the high percentages of players doesn’t (at least yet) translate into management roles. There’s a couple of things to consider:

1. Management is an old boys network. We’re still working through the players of the 90s in management roles.

2. Football (most sport) is the ultimate in meritocracy. You’ll have social networks within squads but it won’t make you a better player.

Footballers are picked far more on merit than managers are. You can’t become a footballer because you’re good at “networking”. However, being a good networker within the “old school” network of ex pros who are current managers is a major benefit.

The insistence of many clubs of choosing their managers from this shallow pool has actually benefitted us enormously over the past 20 years. We’ve often had the sense to look beyond the obvious candidates and appoint with a french look. The only managed who fit the “old boys” stereotype who got a job a Burnley in spite of his ability was Brian Laws.

It’s a problem that black people aren’t represented better within society, certainly. We simply disagree on how best to redress these imbalances.

*fresh look

[Rowls]

Rowls I agree with you on this post completely. I might have to retire this username and start again. Thankyou for a sensible response and have a good night

Genuine pleasure to chat tonight DA.

Hopefully this thread will be disappeared in the morning and you can get back in character.

There’s clearly an intelligent mind behind your relentless bantering.

UTC

[Hipper]

Oh, it’s all so sensible from you tonight!

Here’s my theory why the high percentages of players doesn’t (at least yet) translate into management roles. There’s a couple of things to consider:

1. Management is an old boys network. We’re still working through the players of the 90s in management roles.

2. Football (most sport) is the ultimate in meritocracy. You’ll have social networks within squads but it won’t make you a better player.

Footballers are picked far more on merit than managers are. You can’t become a footballer because you’re good at “networking”. However, being a good networker within the “old school” network of ex pros who are current managers is a major benefit.

The insistence of many clubs of choosing their managers from this shallow pool has actually benefitted us enormously over the past 20 years. We’ve often had the sense to look beyond the obvious candidates and appoint with a french look. The only managed who fit the “old boys” stereotype who got a job a Burnley in spite of his ability was Brian Laws.

It’s a problem that black people aren’t represented better within society, certainly. We simply disagree on how best to redress these imbalances.

I agree with 2 - top footballers get to the top because of their abilities - a meritocracy. Black footballers are better. You can see this at all levels of football.

I can't help thinking that the same applies to team managers. There aren't many successful black managers in the UK because many (most) have proved to be not that good. Of course there are exceptions. Coaches I don't know. We need stats on the subject.

Going to VK's main point, namely the very top is not being a manager. The very top is the upper echelons. [It's] boardrooms, decision makers, institutions.

"When you have representation there, with time - and it won't happen with the click of a finger - opportunity comes."

I'm not sure that, at the top level, board room appointments are still the 'old boy network'. Ownership of Premier League clubs (and ours for that matter) are business issues - investors, sugar daddy types etc.. It's presumably the under representation in this group that leads to a lack of black directors.

[Colburn_Claret]

I find myself agreeing with DA.
The problem is more to do with social backgrounds, than colour of skin.
Football/sport in general, is a good way for someone from a poor background to climb the ladder of success.
Sports club owners tend to come from a very different background.
Neither is exclusive, but on a measure both are polar opposites.
The problem is, IF it is a social background issue, then it's society's problem and not footballs'.
Whilst representation is a worthwhile cause, football cannot solve society's problems, only help in its' own small way.
Keeping the subject to the fore helps, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I think sometimes the media are looking to blame football for the problem, and that shouldn't be the case.

[Lancasterclaret]

Oh, it’s all so sensible from you tonight!

Here’s my theory why the high percentages of players doesn’t (at least yet) translate into management roles. There’s a couple of things to consider:

1. Management is an old boys network. We’re still working through the players of the 90s in management roles.

2. Football (most sport) is the ultimate in meritocracy. You’ll have social networks within squads but it won’t make you a better player.

Footballers are picked far more on merit than managers are. You can’t become a footballer because you’re good at “networking”. However, being a good networker within the “old school” network of ex pros who are current managers is a major benefit.

The insistence of many clubs of choosing their managers from this shallow pool has actually benefitted us enormously over the past 20 years. We’ve often had the sense to look beyond the obvious candidates and appoint with a french look. The only managed who fit the “old boys” stereotype who got a job a Burnley in spite of his ability was Brian Laws.

It’s a problem that black people aren’t represented better within society, certainly. We simply disagree on how best to redress these imbalances.

Bloody hell Rowls, we'll have you on the side of the good guys yet!

[Big Vinny K]

I find myself agreeing with DA.
The problem is more to do with social backgrounds, than colour of skin.
Football/sport in general, is a good way for someone from a poor background to climb the ladder of success.
Sports club owners tend to come from a very different background.
Neither is exclusive, but on a measure both are polar opposites.
The problem is, IF it is a social background issue, then it's society's problem and not footballs'.
Whilst representation is a worthwhile cause, football cannot solve society's problems, only help in its' own small way.
Keeping the subject to the fore helps, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I think sometimes the media are looking to blame football for the problem, and that shouldn't be the case.

Agree that it’s a societal issue but just like a number of private companies have significantly changed their senior leadership and board room structures over the last few years football clubs can also do this.
Sir Les Ferdinand has talked about this for a while and he enjoys a position on the QPR board now but he remains one of the few in football.
It’s outside the control of society or football to influence the background or colour of owners but it is in the gift of owners to influence the make up of board rooms and the day to day senior leaders in the club.
Football especially at the higher echelons of the professional game always seems to lag decades behind the rest of society.

Even roles like CEO’s, COO’s, Commercial Managers in football clubs seem to be a select group of people who move from club to club. The fact that it is so difficult to move from another sector to football even if you have been running multi million pound companies far bigger than the football clubs is just further evidence of how football continues to resist change and how much the job for boys philosophy continues.

[Chester Perry]

Anyone wanting to read the FA's report on Diversity can find it here

Overview
https://www.thefa.com/news/2022/oct/28/ ... 2-20221028

link to the full report is at the bottom of that page

[andyh]

Of all fields of human endeavour football in the uk has great diversity. Society as a whole… maybe not so much.
Maybe there could be more black managers… but I’m glad we have one based on his skills not his skin colour.
Similarly with the influx of new players… I’m not even sure what their ethnic breakdown is and I’m sure no one at the club even considered it when we were interested in then.

[JohnMac]

I have never thought of Vierra or Kompany as anything other than solid professional footballers and now very good Managers with excellent communication skills. Until reading the link I had never even considered the colour of their skin, I still don't!

You would think Boardroom personnel were far more savvy in this day and age. The consequences of using race/colour/religion as a barrier to employment has far reaching consequences which would affect not only their standing, but interests outside of football.

[Hipper]

https://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboa ... 702aa37934

16 (including the absent Jackson) support staff. How many black ones?

Aren't these VK's choices?