Charlie Taylor

[Kuriosoranj]

It's difficult to compare Maatsen and Taylor, which is strange when theyre both considered left backs, but as has been said, they both suit different systems.

I thought I saw some nice defensive work and passing from Taylor yesterday. He's been a safe pair of hands at the back over the years and has the ability to pop up with a nice cross now and then. Calm, sensible player who knows his strengths.

Maatsen plays higher up the pitch - alarmingly, excitingly high up! I think Churlinov missed this yesterday. Maatsen isn't afraid to take a risk and look for a killer pass. This is high risk, high reward and why he is on the lower end of passing accuracy stats - alongside the other attacking players - Benson, Gudmundsson, Zaroury. He can be great going forward and as has been said to death, "he suits our system." Defensively, I have to be honest, I think he is poor positionally, makes rash tackles and decisions. This is less of an issue if we're a possession side who doesn't let teams get into the final 3rd often. It might be different next season. Either way, he has been exciting to watch.

[Big Vinny K]

Mike Bassett
“Ladies and gentleman, England will be playing four, four, f-ucking, two”

[IanMcL]

Charlie will be vital next season, if we are to stop being shredded.

[IWOODLOVETT]

Man of the match yesterday - he will still be here next season (or sold if a big offer comes in).

[CoolClaret]

Embarassment oh dear.
How is it laughable? You can come up with all the gobbledegook you want but football is a simple 11 v 11 game.
Defends jobs are to stop goals first
Attackers jobs are to score goals first
It is indeed very very simple.

Yeah you’re stuck in the 90s

[Big Vinny K]

Yeah you’re stuck in the 90s

The 1890s I think !

[CoolClaret]

The 1890s I think !

I don’t think I’m the footballing oracle or anything, perhaps opinionated at times but I also spend a little bit of time/take interest in reading up on trends the game is going in, various tactics and how managers are setting their teams up.

What I couldn’t imagine doing is being completely oblivious to all that and jumping on a message board writing ‘defenders defend and attackers attack’ as though the game is that simple and rigid. Beggars belief

[bumba]

I don’t think I’m the footballing oracle or anything, perhaps opinionated at times but I also spend a little bit of time/take interest in reading up on trends the game is going in, various tactics and how managers are setting their teams up.

What I couldn’t imagine doing is being completely oblivious to all that and jumping on a message board writing ‘defenders defend and attackers attack’ as though the game is that simple and rigid. Beggars belief

It isn't that rigid but it is that simple.
A defenders first job is to defend that's why they play defence.
Yes they have attacking duties some more so than others dependent on the team they play for and style they play but a defender should defend.
What does TAA get so much criticism?
It's beggars belief that a minority of managers play this new style yet fans like you jump on the bandwagon thinking you know new things about football.
There's no one way to play football but it is simple when broken down 11 v 11.
Defenders first job is defend
Attackers first job is attacking

[CoolClaret]

It isn't that rigid but it is that simple.
A defenders first job is to defend that's why they play defence.
Yes they have attacking duties some more so than others dependent on the team they play for and style they play but a defender should defend.
What does TAA get so much criticism?
It's beggars belief that a minority of managers play this new style yet fans like you jump on the bandwagon thinking you know new things about football.
There's no one way to play football but it is simple when broken down 11 v 11.
Defenders first job is defend
Attackers first job is attacking

Not when they're often the main creators and the sitting midfielders are taking up their position when they bomb on.

Reece James is probably the best 'hybrid' between the two styles
TAA gets criticism because he literally switches off and watches attackers run past him and makes half hearted attempts to get back; non of this can be said for Maatsen who sticks to his task and puts a shift in.

Worth noting that TAA has also been a key player in a UCL and PL winning side.

Football is almost going formation-less, rigid systems will be a thing of the past in years to come. It's all about intelligence and how a player reads a game.

The fullback sticking on a tricky winger, at least for now, is an era that's gone by.

I'd suggest you look at the average position of our two fullbacks - particularly Maatsen's heatmap this season... You'll find that he is comfortably ahead of most of the midfield on average - so no it really isn't 'Attackers attack and defenders defend'.

[Big Vinny K]

It's beggars belief that a minority of managers play this new style yet fans like you jump on the bandwagon thinking you know new things about football.

Minority of managers ?
You mean most of the top teams in Europe in the last few years ?
If only Pep, Ancelotti, Arteta, Klopp, and all the rest of these guys with their fancy new ideas about how to play the game had listened to you Bumba they might have actually won something eh ?

They all need to watch your favourite video about how the game should be played

https://fb.watch/jZ8I7zUr8R/

[bumba]

Minority of managers ?
You mean most of the top teams in Europe in the last few years ?
If only Pep, Ancelotti, Arteta, Klopp, and all the rest of these guys with their fancy new ideas about how to play the game had listened to you Bumba they might have actually won something eh ?

They all need to watch your favourite video about how the game should be played

https://fb.watch/jZ8I7zUr8R/

Yes the minority, you've named 4 managers and only 1 plays out system and another 1 is debatable. The other two have never played our system

[Big Vinny K]

Yes the minority, you've named 4 managers and only 1 plays out system and another 1 is debatable. The other two have never played our system

Who is talking about our system ?
You are making this up as you go along.

Your Charlie Charles notion about a full backs number one job is to defend is so outdated it’s a joke.
You think that Arteta bought Zinchenko for his defending do you ? He’s captain of his national side and plays in midfield for them !!

Let’s flip it round since you profess to understand so much about this simple game you refer to. Which teams in the premier league have full backs who are better at defending than they are attacking ? And which managers in the PL instruct their full backs to rarely cross the half way line and stick to defending ?
(And you can’t include Mike Bassett as sorry to break it to you but he’s fictional)

[bumba]

Who is talking about our system ?
You are making this up as you go along.

Your Charlie Charles notion about a full backs number one job is to defend is so outdated it’s a joke.
You think that Arteta bought Zinchenko for his defending do you ? He’s captain of his national side and plays in midfield for them !!

Let’s flip it round since you profess to understand so much about this simple game you refer to. Which teams in the premier league have full backs who are better at defending than they are attacking ? And which managers in the PL instruct their full backs to rarely cross the half way line and stick to defending ?
(And you can’t include Mike Bassett as sorry to break it to you but he’s fictional)

Your laughable honestly, you say I'm making it up as I go along whilst plucking random statements out of thin air.
When did I say they shouldn't cross the half way line?? When did I ever insinuate that? NEVER.
I said their first role is to defend which is still true and you've done or said nothing to prove I am wrong.
Check Maatsens player ratings and comments for his performance tonight.
He struggles defending simple as that, we can't afford a full back in the premier league that can't defend.
Doesn't mean his attacking qualities aren't needed because they are but we need someone with both qualities

[Big Vinny K]

Your laughable honestly, you say I'm making it up as I go along whilst plucking random statements out of thin air.
When did I say they shouldn't cross the half way line?? When did I ever insinuate that? NEVER.
I said their first role is to defend which is still true and you've done or said nothing to prove I am wrong.
Check Maatsens player ratings and comments for his performance tonight.
He struggles defending simple as that, we can't afford a full back in the premier league that can't defend.
Doesn't mean his attacking qualities aren't needed because they are but we need someone with both qualities

I’ve asked you to come up with managers in the top league who insist that their full backs are better at defending than attacking and all you do is come back with Mike Bassett boll-ox about defenders defending and attackers attacking.
You say football is a simple game completely ignoring the fact that the way the vast majority of teams play and set up their full backs in particular is completely different to what it was 20 years ago. It’s a long way from being simple.

Anybody with an ounce of sense can see that for the likes of TAA, Robertson, Chilwell, Zinchenko, James, Cancelo, (and many many more) their first priority is very clearly about getting forward not defending.
And if you haven’t realised yet that is why we have Roberts and Maatsen in our team and not Lowton and Taylor.
Roberts had more shots on target tonight against Rotherham than Charlie Taylor probably has had in his career at Burnley. Do you think VK was screaming at him to get back and defend cos that’s what defenders do ?

As for Maatsen’s ratings tonight that’s completely irrelevant. The debate is about what he has brought to the team over a course of the season and why he is important to the way we play. His defending which I am not disputing needs improvement (he’s still young) is not as important to VK as his attacking attributes. If it was he would not be playing because Taylor is a better defender so VK would have been picking CT if he thought that was better for the team.

[elwaclaret]

Just to pint out it is a modern take on ‘total football’ or ‘original association football’… like all systems it will be successful for a while then go out of fashion… Uruguay inventing defending, Argentina killing the Dutch dream…

No idea what, but something will return that pulls it apart, then it will all tighten up again.

[boatshed bill]

Just to pint out it is a modern take on ‘total football’ or ‘original association football’… like all systems it will be successful for a while then go out of fashion… Uruguay inventing defending, Argentina killing the Dutch dream…

No idea what, but something will return that pulls it apart, then it will all tighten up again.

I'm not sure about any particular tactic returning because the game is constantly evolving, but I'm sure the current trends will be superceded one day

[Big Vinny K]

Just to pint out it is a modern take on ‘total football’ or ‘original association football’… like all systems it will be successful for a while then go out of fashion… Uruguay inventing defending, Argentina killing the Dutch dream…

No idea what, but something will return that pulls it apart, then it will all tighten up again.

You are possibly right but this has been an evolution from Cruyff, through to Pep and his Barca team and then over the last 10 or 15 years most teams in the top leagues trying to replicate this style or a version of it.
It’s now become a generation of players, managers, coaches, youth teams etc.
The most successful club and national sides in the last 20 years have played in this way and specifically on full backs we have seen some fantastic attacking players in these teams.

It’s going to take quite a while IMHO for this to change. Right now if anything I have never seen as many teams trying this style of football. It’s hilarious watching Leeds try and start moves from the keeper when they clearly don’t have good enough players !! But I was watching a national league game the other day and Notts County were doing it.

Looks like it’s here to stay for a while yet !!

[bumba]

I’ve asked you to come up with managers in the top league who insist that their full backs are better at defending than attacking and all you do is come back with Mike Bassett boll-ox about defenders defending and attackers attacking.
You say football is a simple game completely ignoring the fact that the way the vast majority of teams play and set up their full backs in particular is completely different to what it was 20 years ago. It’s a long way from being simple.

Anybody with an ounce of sense can see that for the likes of TAA, Robertson, Chilwell, Zinchenko, James, Cancelo, (and many many more) their first priority is very clearly about getting forward not defending.
And if you haven’t realised yet that is why we have Roberts and Maatsen in our team and not Lowton and Taylor.
Roberts had more shots on target tonight against Rotherham than Charlie Taylor probably has had in his career at Burnley. Do you think VK was screaming at him to get back and defend cos that’s what defenders do ?

As for Maatsen’s ratings tonight that’s completely irrelevant. The debate is about what he has brought to the team over a course of the season and why he is important to the way we play. His defending which I am not disputing needs improvement (he’s still young) is not as important to VK as his attacking attributes. If it was he would not be playing because Taylor is a better defender so VK would have been picking CT if he thought that was better for the team.

How is his performance tonight irrelevant? It highlighted yet again that he struggles to defend. My whole point on this thread is that he struggles defensively yet your changing it all coming back with 'mike bassett' whilst naming world class full backs that are all excellent defenders apart from TAA.
Is Maatsen on their level...NO
Is he world class....NO
No way are any of those full backs first priority to attack. They attack more because there playing for world class sides who dominate possession.
Will Burnley dominate possession in the premier league with this 11...NO
Will we defend more than we attack in the majority of games...YES
he's been important this season because we've dominated possession and been attacking much more than we will next season with the current 11 so his attacking ability has stood out, when he's been asked to defend he has left massive question marks, if you cannot see that then you really don't understand football to the levels your trying to talk yourself in too