Cardiff Riots

[Foshiznik]

Understaffed or underfunded?

Both. Just like pretty much all public services unfortunately.

[MancunianClaret]

Both. Just like pretty much all public services unfortunately.

So get people on benefits to work jobs that *should* be paid a wage instead, undermining the scant paid roles that remain?

Your logic is totally broken here. Short sighted thinking that would have us all back in workhouses before long if our Tory masters had their way.

[Bosscat]

The Mail article describes the area of Ely as deprived, then reports 16 and 15 year old boys riding a £4,000 electric bike......

Stolen

[arise_sir_charge]

Watch the video above to see how fast it was going.

I’ve seen the video, how fast it is going in that short clip doesn’t mean it wasn’t able to go much faster and wasn’t going much faster at the time of the fatal accident it was involved in.

[evensteadiereddie]

Still, always worth speculating, eh?

[Lancasterclaret]

Uncanny that all this speculation and no one has mentioned that SW Police have changed their story from "not being chased by the police" to "being chased by the police"

[Nori1958]

Neglect of duty if they didn't chase it

[claretonthecoast1882]

Uncanny that all this speculation and no one has mentioned that SW Police have changed their story from "not being chased by the police" to "being chased by the police"

In fairness they were only 1 word out with the first statement

[Lancasterclaret]

In fairness they were only 1 word out with the first statement

I happy to accept that there might have been some issues contacting the officers at the start and that would explain the discrepancy

However, changing the story after tv footage emerged isn't a great look

It will need a proper independent look at it and I'm just glad there was no rioting last night

I have lots of sympathy for Commys position as well btw, but this plus the Metropolitans polices conduct over the past couple of years (Sarah Everard in particular) does need sorting for all to have faith in the police

[claretonthecoast1882]

I happy to accept that there might have been some issues contacting the officers at the start and that would explain the discrepancy

However, changing the story after tv footage emerged isn't a great look

It will need a proper independent look at it and I'm just glad there was no rioting last night

I have lots of sympathy for Commys position as well btw, but this plus the Metropolitans polices conduct over the past couple of years (Sarah Everard in particular) does need sorting for all to have faith in the police

It has probably come as a shock to some inside the police that people may have their own footage of this taking place, it isn't like most things these days seem to have someone filming it. As for faith in the police we are probably years off that

[Nori1958]

The footage from the doorbell was a mile away from the scene....anyone know what happened in between......no? I didn't think so.

[Lancasterclaret]

It has probably come as a shock to some inside the police that people may have their own footage of this taking place, it isn't like most things these days seem to have someone filming it. As for faith in the police we are probably years off that

Depressing isn't it?

[claretandy]

I’ve seen the video, how fast it is going in that short clip doesn’t mean it wasn’t able to go much faster and wasn’t going much faster at the time of the fatal accident it was involved in.

I was agreeing with you.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Depressing isn't it?

Yup, faith in something is a bit like having respect for something.. you need to earn it and there is very little of either being earned across various forces at the moment.

[TheFamilyCat]

The footage from the doorbell was a mile away from the scene....anyone know what happened in between......no? I didn't think so.

Given where a scooter can go that a van can't, I'd be surprised if that van was chasing for a mile.

I'd also be amazed if more footage does not materialise given the amount of CCTV, doorbell, dashcams there are out there.

[bpgburn]

Uncanny that all this speculation and no one has mentioned that SW Police have changed their story from "not being chased by the police" to "being chased by the police"

Where is it reported that "we were not chasing" and then changing to "yes were were chasing?" Or are you speculating?

All I've heard reported was they were following (not chasing), an electric bike but they were not following (again not chasing), or had any police vehicles nearby at the scene of the accident?

Sky News 23/05/23
"South Wales Police has referred itself to its watchdog after CCTV footage showed a police van following two people on an electric bike before the crash. Officers say none of their vehicles were on Snowden Road when the crash happened."

[Lancasterclaret]

Given where a scooter can go that a van can't, I'd be surprised if that van was chasing for a mile.

C4 have two different door bell camera shots

I don't know if that means anything though

[kentonclaret]

It has probably come as a shock to some inside the police that people may have their own footage of this taking place, it isn't like most things these days seem to have someone filming it. As for faith in the police we are probably years off that

Well, if it has come as a shock it shouldn’t. There have been numerous instances of the police seeking the help of the public and asking them to send in any mobile phone footage of a serious incident where CCTV coverage is poor. Both Sky and BBC are always asking for mobile phone footage and the BBC often have a link at the end of an article or breaking news stories. We are all outside reporters now. Many people also have CCTV covering the entrance to their property which sometimes covers the street outside.

[Lancasterclaret]

Where is it reported that "we were not chasing" and then changing to "yes were were chasing?" Or are you speculating?

All I've heard reported was they were following (not chasing), an electric bike but they were not following (again not chasing), or had any police vehicles nearby at the scene of the accident?

Sky News 23/05/23
"South Wales Police has referred itself to its watchdog after CCTV footage showed a police van following two people on an electric bike before the crash. Officers say none of their vehicles were on Snowden Road when the crash happened."

Ok, change the words to "not following" and to "were following" rather than "not chasing" and "were chasing"

its still not a good look for them that they have changed their story

[ŽižkovClaret]

Ok, change the words to "not following" and to "were following" rather than "not chasing" and "were chasing"

its still not a good look for them that they have changed their story

Almost like the Police as an organisation can't always be trusted to tell the truth

[bpgburn]

Ok, change the words to "not following" and to "were following" rather than "not chasing" and "were chasing"

its still not a good look for them

They said they were not following at the scene of the accident, Then the doorbell footage (a mile from the accident), came to light and they said yes we were following an electric bike at that time but not at the accident site as was being reported. That's not changing their story it's adding detail to it when the question/accusation changed.

[Lancasterclaret]

They said they were not following at the scene of the accident, Then the doorbell footage (a mile from the accident), came to light and they said yes we were following an electric bike at that time but not at the accident site as was being reported. That's not changing their story it's adding detail to it when the question/accusation changed.

It is changing their story with all the respect in the world

They have referred themselves to the IPCC so hopefully the truth comes out and (even more hopefully) they are telling the truth

[Nori1958]

Any contact, even days before has to be referred

[Nori1958]

Given where a scooter can go that a van can't, I'd be surprised if that van was chasing for a mile.

I'd be surprised as well, but people like to speculate unfortunately

[bpgburn]

It is changing their story with all the respect in the world

They have referred themselves to the IPCC so hopefully the truth comes out and (even more hopefully) they are telling the truth

If they were asked "At any point that day was you following two boys on an electric bike?" and they said no, I would agree that is changing your story. If however they were asked:

"Were you chasing/following those two boys at the time they crashed", " No we were not"

"But what about this video footage showing that you was in fact chasing/following them?", "Yes but that was a mile away and nothing to do with the crash as per the original question" , that is adding detail, lets not forget that the original accusation and the cause of the riot was that they crashed and died because the police was chasing them.

I would think they have referred themselves to the IPPC to stop any speculation and to prove just that.

[Lancasterclaret]

If they were asked "At any point that day was you following two boys on an electric bike?" and they said no, I would agree that is changing your story. If however they were asked:

"Were you chasing/following those two boys at the time they crashed", " No we were not"

"But what about this video footage showing that you was in fact chasing/following them?", "Yes but that was a mile away and nothing to do with the crash as per the original question" , that is adding detail, lets not forget that the original accusation and the cause of the riot was that they crashed and died because the police was chasing them.

I would think they have referred themselves to the IPPC to stop any speculation and to prove just that.

Thats fair enough

I would say they would have been better admitting to that at the start though

[Lancasterclaret]

Any contact, even days before has to be referred

Makes it even stranger that they didn't mention it at the start then

[Nori1958]

If they were asked "At any point that day was you following two boys on an electric bike?" and they said no, I would agree that is changing your story. If however they were asked:

"Were you chasing/following those two boys at the time they crashed", " No we were not"

"But what about this video footage showing that you was in fact chasing/following them?", "Yes but that was a mile away and nothing to do with the crash as per the original question" , that is adding detail, lets not forget that the original accusation and the cause of the riot was that they crashed and died because the police was chasing them.

I would think they have referred themselves to the IPPC to stop any speculation and to prove just that.

That wouldn't fit some people's agenda though

They legally have to refer any contact with someone who dies, sometimes even if it's days before the death

[Nori1958]

Makes it even stranger that they didn't mention it at the start then

Only to you probably.....they were a little busy to comment on everything that was happening in the background

[Lancasterclaret]

Only to you probably.....they were a little busy to comment on everything that was happening in the background

I wouldn't how long you could remain polite for Grumps

Anyway, thanks for the useful input until you became, well, you

[Walton]

The police appear to be re-writing what was said initially if they're now adding in the clause 'at the time of the crash'.

What was said by the Police & Crime Commisioner on Radio 4 was:

“It appears there were rumours – and those rumours became rife – of a police chase which wasn’t the case. I think it illustrates the speed which rumours can go round with the activity that goes on social media these days and how things can get out of hand.”

The CCTV footage directly undermines what he said.

[Nori1958]

I wouldn't how long you could remain polite for Grumps

Anyway, thanks for the useful input until you became, well, you

Let me enlighten you
Once it became evident there had been contact, the on call IPCC would have been informed and told that a referral would be being made.
Once the facts were known...which obviously could be hours or days after the incident then the formal referral will be made, which is normally when any release to the press is made
So to answer you original point, no it's not strange that it wasn't mentioned earlier.

[Nori1958]

The police appear to be re-writing what was said initially if they're now adding in the clause 'at the time of the crash'.

What was said by the Police & Crime Commisioner on Radio 4 was:

“It appears there were rumours – and those rumours became rife – of a police chase which wasn’t the case. I think it illustrates the speed which rumours can go round with the activity that goes on social media these days and how things can get out of hand.”

The CCTV footage directly undermines what he said.

Just to be fair, the police and crime commissioner is not the police

[Walton]

Just to be fair, the police and crime commissioner is not the police

Indeed. But, as per a local MP:

"The role of police and crime commissioners is to be the voice of the people and hold the police to account," she said.

"Alun Michael this morning spoke rather as a spokesperson and defender for South Wales Police."


As has been seen in Teesside, the relationship between PCC and their force is often intertwined

[dsr]

The police appear to be re-writing what was said initially if they're now adding in the clause 'at the time of the crash'.

What was said by the Police & Crime Commisioner on Radio 4 was:

“It appears there were rumours – and those rumours became rife – of a police chase which wasn’t the case. I think it illustrates the speed which rumours can go round with the activity that goes on social media these days and how things can get out of hand.”

The CCTV footage directly undermines what he said.

The CCTV footage I saw doesn't say whether there was a chase or not. It shows a police van following a scooter, but does it prove that the scooter was trying to get away? Or is there any more footage?

[Lancasterclaret]

The CCTV footage I saw doesn't say whether there was a chase or not. It shows a police van following a scooter, but does it prove that the scooter was trying to get away? Or is there any more footage?

The two I've seen just show two lads on a scooter, with a police van (no lights flashing) behind it

hard to tell the speed, hard to tell what was happening other than its a bike with two people on it and a police van behind it

[AGENT_CLARET]

The two I've seen just show two lads on a scooter, with a police van (no lights flashing) behind it

hard to tell the speed, hard to tell what was happening other than its a bike with two people on it and a police van behind it

The scooter going off the frame speed was doing 28mph the Police van a touch under that

[bfcjg]

What the hell are the police meant to do ? Not drive in certain areas without permission from the local scrotes,not follow certain individuals without an ok from a community spokesman ?

[Foshiznik]

Sounds like many on here don’t think cops should chase teenagers who might be acting suspiciously

[Foshiznik]

So get people on benefits to work jobs that *should* be paid a wage instead, undermining the scant paid roles that remain?

Your logic is totally broken here. Short sighted thinking that would have us all back in workhouses before long if our Tory masters had their way.

They are only scant because of cuts to public services. Why not use able bodied people being paid free money to fill the gaps if there is no money to increase workforces or fill the gaps?

[MancunianClaret]

They are only scant because of cuts to public services. Why not use able bodied people being paid free money to fill the gaps if there is no money to increase workforces or fill the gaps?

Why not? I've already told you why, because using labour in this way undermines paid roles. If you start using the "benefits workforce" to do jobs, businesses and councils will stop paying people to do those actual jobs. It becomes a race to the bottom and nobody comes out a winner, except the already very wealthy.

If you think there's no money for public services, look at tax evasion by the wealthy and corruption at the top (i.e. the PPE scandal). Don't start undermining the few paid jobs that are left by allowing the government and businesses to utilise unpaid labour.

[Lancasterclaret]

Why not? I've already told you why, because using labour in this way undermines paid roles. If you start using the "benefits workforce" to do jobs, businesses and councils will stop paying people to do those actual jobs. It becomes a race to the bottom and nobody comes out a winner, except the already very wealthy.

If you think there's no money for public services, look at tax evasion by the wealthy and corruption at the top (i.e. the PPE scandal). Don't start undermining the few paid jobs that are left by allowing the government and businesses to utilise unpaid labour.

If people want decent public services, then they have to pay for them

If people want low taxes, then they won't have decent public services

Every government we ever have struggles to get the balance, and I don't think its breaking any rules to say that we've not got the balance right at the moment

[Walton]

Sounds like many on here don’t think cops should chase teenagers who might be acting suspiciously

Surely some form of risk assessment comes into the thinking?

Is it safe to chase teenagers riding pillion, neither wearing helmets, through a winding estate at peak traffic time?

Why were they being chased? Were they armed, did they have drugs on them, were they escaping from the scene of a major crime? Nothing suggests that's the case.

So what we have is a police pursuit simply because some kids were being a bit of a nuisance in their own estate.

Is that appropriate?

[Chobulous]

Why not? I've already told you why, because using labour in this way undermines paid roles. If you start using the "benefits workforce" to do jobs, businesses and councils will stop paying people to do those actual jobs. It becomes a race to the bottom and nobody comes out a winner, except the already very wealthy.

If you think there's no money for public services, look at tax evasion by the wealthy and corruption at the top (i.e. the PPE scandal). Don't start undermining the few paid jobs that are left by allowing the government and businesses to utilise unpaid labour.

Enforced labour is slave labour whichever way you look at it. Community service for someone who has committed an offence is one thing, but forcing people who are on benefits to work in whatever sphere is, to me, beyond the pale. Or are we saying that claiming benefits is tantamount to criminal behaviour? That all may sound like an over exaggeration of what is being suggested, but it really isn’t

[MancunianClaret]

Surely some form of risk assessment comes into the thinking?

Is it safe to chase teenagers riding pillion, neither wearing helmets, through a winding estate at peak traffic time?

Why were they being chased? Were they armed, did they have drugs on them, were they escaping from the scene of a major crime? Nothing suggests that's the case.

So what we have is a police pursuit simply because some kids were being a bit of a nuisance in their own estate.

Is that appropriate?

Playing devils advocate on some of these questions.

Is it safe to chase teenagers riding pillion, neither wearing helmets, through a winding estate at peak traffic time?

Not really obvious whether they're teenagers or adults if they refuse to stop, especially looking at the recent pictures of them. Could be 21 or 16 looking at them.

Why were they being chased? Were they armed, did they have drugs on them, were they escaping from the scene of a major crime?

We don't know the answers to these questions, but at a minimum probably because they were tearing about on an illegal e-bike with no insurance or helmets. Dangerous activity to both themselves, other road users and pedestrians - especially with it being a residential estate on a sunny day. Also seems the local community had requested a crackdown on ASB usage of these bikes according to reports.

Is that appropriate?

Again, hard to say without all the facts - but would it be appropriate for the police not to chase anyone committing crime simply because they're not wearing a helmet? That's a slippery slope to go down in my opinion. We should also remember this could have all been avoided if the teenagers had chosen to stop rather than run. Sadly, they paid with the consequences of their poor choices.

[MancunianClaret]

Enforced labour is slave labour whichever way you look at it. Community service for someone who has committed an offence is one thing, but forcing people who are on benefits to work in whatever sphere is, to me, beyond the pale. Or are we saying that claiming benefits is tantamount to criminal behaviour? That all may sound like an over exaggeration of what is being suggested, but it really isn’t

You've put it much more eloquently than I did! Totally agree. Benefits are there for a specific purpose - and if there are jobs to done, they should paid/compensated for according to national minimum wage laws. Benefit claimants are not criminals and should not be treated as such.

[Nori1958]

Surely some form of risk assessment comes into the thinking?

Is it safe to chase teenagers riding pillion, neither wearing helmets, through a winding estate at peak traffic time?

Why were they being chased? Were they armed, did they have drugs on them, were they escaping from the scene of a major crime? Nothing suggests that's the case.

So what we have is a police pursuit simply because some kids were being a bit of a nuisance in their own estate.

Is that appropriate?

Just let them get away with it...until they nick your car eh? Or knock you or your family down....

[Chobulous]

Surely some form of risk assessment comes into the thinking?

Is it safe to chase teenagers riding pillion, neither wearing helmets, through a winding estate at peak traffic time?

Why were they being chased? Were they armed, did they have drugs on them, were they escaping from the scene of a major crime? Nothing suggests that's the case.

So what we have is a police pursuit simply because some kids were being a bit of a nuisance in their own estate.

Is that appropriate?

And yet your posting is full of assumptions probably based on your own preformed prejudices.

You assume the kids were merely being a nuisance, you don’t know their history or the history of teenage behaviour in that area
You assume the police were chasing the kids through the streets instead of merely being followed for a while. There is a big difference between being followed and being chased. Being chased implies an active pursuit at speed. The evidence available shows the van following the kids then turning off but you have decided it was a chase

[aggi]

They are only scant because of cuts to public services. Why not use able bodied people being paid free money to fill the gaps if there is no money to increase workforces or fill the gaps?

Wasn't this tried 10 years or so ago? Ended up with people working for free at Poundland and Tesco and similar.

[aggi]

And yet your posting is full of assumptions probably based on your own preformed prejudices.

You assume the kids were merely being a nuisance, you don’t know their history or the history of teenage behaviour in that area
You assume the police were chasing the kids through the streets instead of merely being followed for a while. There is a big difference between being followed and being chased. Being chased implies an active pursuit at speed. The evidence available shows the van following the kids then turning off but you have decided it was a chase

They turned off because the road the scooter was going down had bollards blocking it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65700552