Do the board really want concessionary supporters?

[Madpete]

Just reading an excellent article in the Guardian this morning by Jonathan Wilson about Spurs & their search for “plastic fans” at the exclusion of the long established local ones.It seems to strike a chord with me & our boards similar approach.The Guardian is free to read online & I urge those interested to read it.It is the way the Premier League clubs are heading & who can blame them in their search for greater revenues.

[CoolClaret]

It is the way the Premier League clubs are heading & who can blame them in their search for greater revenues.

Well I can blame them and I suggest any true fan of association football can because the only reason the game exists as it does today with a rich heritage & long standing history is because prior owners of clubs (for the most part) up and down the land/ the footballing authorities saw their roles more as custodians, with the integrity and strength of the pyramid paramount; the difference now is they're financial moguls that really only give a sh1t about making their $$$ without any greater care for any potential long-term ramifications from their short-termism. As long as they get their slice of the pie, f everyone else.

[Middle-agedClaret]

No.

[Funkydrummer]

I can't wait for these clubs to fall from grace, slide down the football
pyramid, and for the plastic fans to melt away into the distance.

No loyalty, no sense of belonging and no longer interested.

Then watch them either pack it in and crawl back into the holes
they came from or come grovelling back to the loyal and trusted
fans that they dismissed as irrelevant in the past.

[Leisure]

Just reading an excellent article in the Guardian this morning by Jonathan Wilson about Spurs & their search for “plastic fans” at the exclusion of the long established local ones.It seems to strike a chord with me & our boards similar approach.The Guardian is free to read online & I urge those interested to read it.It is the way the Premier League clubs are heading & who can blame them in their search for greater revenues.

From the thread title are you implying that our Board don't want concessionary supporters? And, if so, how have you come to that conclusion?

[Chester Perry]

The article in question is one of a number that I have been posting on the MMT recently covering the general dislocation between traditional/legacy approach of fandom and running of clubs and the the ever more desperate search for revenues

for those who haven't seen the one discussed in the OP you can read it here

Ange Postecoglou the ‘plastic’ manager is perfect fit for a club at odds with its fans
There’s always been a tension between connection to place and the commercial reality – but it has never felt more acute
https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... h-its-fans

[Chester Perry]

It is probably worth putting this here too - the trend of non tv income at our club

BFC Non TV Income to July 2023.png (30.91 KiB) Viewed 4356 times

[Funkydrummer]

From the thread title are you implying that our Board don't want concessionary supporters? And, if so, how have you come to that conclusion?

Perhaps he's a concession himself, like me, and has experienced
a 28% increase in season ticket price for next season.

Just a theory, mind you.

[MrTopTier]

From the thread title are you implying that our Board don't want concessionary supporters? And, if so, how have you come to that conclusion?

Can’t answer for madpete, but the boards actions in the increase for over 65’s and under 22’s, plus the prioritising corporate Everton fans in a Burnley stand would give credence to the suggestion.

[TheFamilyCat]

Is an article only being written about this now? The big clubs would take a stadium full of tourists, who will spend fortunes on merchandise over season ticket holders all day long.

[Poulton-le-Claret]

I do think the price rises for concession are high and have been introduced too fast, but concession tickets are still on average 30% cheaper than a full adult.

A 30% discount does seem a fair amount to me, but does the club really need the extra profit from increasing concession prices, I highly doubt it.

[aggi]

The article reads a bit like it's by someone who's never been to Haringey but that's by the by. Spurs make a lot of money from tourists, particularly there to see Son, so you can see why it's an issue.

In terms of concessions though, it's a bit more complicated than just looking at the mismatch between the price increases (obviously in absolute terms senior tickets are still 30% cheaper than full price) and saying that's it.

Numbers of senior tickets have increased hugely as a proportion of the whole (Spurs said it has quadrupled there, not sure when from) due to an aging population with increasing life expectancy.

There's also the debate whether they really need such a hefty discount, times have changed from when pensioners were the poorest in society. This is a few years old but gives you the idea:



So the club needs to strike a happy medium but it's a very difficult subject to do anything about (see the unwillingness to discuss the triple lock) and our PR isn't necessarily the best in this area anyway.

[jrgbfc]

Just watching Spurs on TV its noticeable how many Koreans are there these days obviously to watch Son.
Fans like this will blow a fortune on club shop tat, overpriced food and drink etc. Compared with your old school/traditional fan who might have a few pints in a local pub, watch the game then head back to the pub.

[IanMcL]

Just reading an excellent article in the Guardian this morning by Jonathan Wilson about Spurs & their search for “plastic fans” at the exclusion of the long established local ones.It is the way the Premier League clubs are heading & who can blame them in their search for greater revenues.

I blame them!

Football has always been about local people and the team that represents their homepage. That is loyalty on several levels.

To think that the space/seat in the ground is just that and requires a maximum income generated, from it, is nothing to do with football and everything to do with a soulless business, missing the point of itself.

The best businesses realise that if you can keep your existing customers, it is a guarantee for years to come, with little effort. The extras cost in marketing etc.

[Leisure]

Perhaps he's a concession himself, like me, and has experienced
a 28% increase in season ticket price for next season.

Same here but I wouldn't say that the increase means that the Club don't want concessionary supporters. Also, I'm not sure that O65's and U22 are that poor that they should have a reduced price.

[turbo5]

Purely looking at it in a business sense Concessionary supporters have some benefits
The young will hopefully become full paying fans, with a life-time of loyalty to the club buying merchandise and season tickets , If you don't plant the seeds today you might not have the crops (fans) tomorrow.
As for the older end , They have spent their money at full price over the years , they have introduced new fans to the club, (their children) but today what do they offer ? Image of the club looking after their older fan base ? Clubs don't want the negative image/publicity . More loyalty in bad times regardless of what league they are in ! people who have had season tickets since Jimmy Mac and Martin Dobson days are less likely not to renew if we go down a league.
For clubs like Burnley it's very important they appeal to all the fan base. We aren't a big city club with worldwide following and tourist fans.
Its easy for clubs to get greedy in the good times filling up seats with tourist and full price seats but what happens when it goes downhill and all the loyal fans you out priced have found other interests to do on match days.

[daveisaclaret]

They don't want concessionary fans. Whatever the rights and wrongs it's self-defeating in how short term it is in the thinking. Tottenham, the example in the Guardian article, can clearly pull it off because of demand. We on the other hand are only ever about 2 lean years away from having thousands of unsold seats.

[ClaretTony]

Same here but I wouldn't say that the increase means that the Club don't want concessionary supporters. Also, I'm not sure that O65's and U22 are that poor that they should have a reduced price.

Can't believe you don't think that. They've joined the Premier League cartel and will reduce and reduce concessions if they can until they are no longer. Remember, concessions got a bigger increase than adults last year too.

[Garnerssoap]

It is probably worth putting this here too - the trend of non tv income at our club


BFC Non TV Income to July 2023.png

Good to see my boycott finally but in 20/21 when they took peas off the catering menu in the BobLord ?

[Chester Perry]

The article reads a bit like it's by someone who's never been to Haringey but that's by the by. Spurs make a lot of money from tourists, particularly there to see Son, so you can see why it's an issue.

In terms of concessions though, it's a bit more complicated than just looking at the mismatch between the price increases (obviously in absolute terms senior tickets are still 30% cheaper than full price) and saying that's it.

Numbers of senior tickets have increased hugely as a proportion of the whole (Spurs said it has quadrupled there, not sure when from) due to an aging population with increasing life expectancy.

There's also the debate whether they really need such a hefty discount, times have changed from when pensioners were the poorest in society. This is a few years old but gives you the idea:



So the club needs to strike a happy medium but it's a very difficult subject to do anything about (see the unwillingness to discuss the triple lock) and our PR isn't necessarily the best in this area anyway.

I have posted this before - also it was first posted on the MMT

Martin Cloak is well known in Football Fan organisation circles and was a founding member and long time trustee for Tottenham's Supporters Trust - last month he wrote this in response to the Spurs decision re senior citizen ticket prices - there is probably few better who understand the whole context of what is going on there - it also addresses head on that graph which Daniel Levy firmly believes in

So here is something that I can see catching on quickly - Tottenham have announced that they are phasing out Senior Concessions in season tickets from the season after next, no new ones will be sold, even to longstanding season ticket holders who would have normally become entitled - here Martin Cloake uses The Football Fan blog to rail against the decision.

Sorry we’re not dead yet
Tottenham Hotspur have a problem. Not enough of their longstanding fans are dying.
https://martincloake.substack.com/p/sor ... t-dead-yet
https://archive.ph/T4CjZ

[AlargeClaret]

The Man Utd game yesterday being a fine example . The 1000 or so tickets we weren’t allocated went to assorted agencies etc and no doubt generated a hell of a lot more income ( inc merchandise spend etc ) than could ever be had selling to BFC fans . To add insult to injury there were plenty of seats with MU fans in the Burnley end .

Spurs did this in our away cup game , a pitiful 900 ish BFC fans allowed them to sell a large section to day trippers /tourists and also the BFC end was full of grinning half n half scarfed imbeciles.

[ClaretTony]

I have posted this before - also it was first posted on the MMT

Martin Cloak is well known in Football Fan organisation circles and was a founding member and long time trustee for Tottenham's Supporters Trust - last month he wrote this in response to the Spurs decision re senior citizen ticket prices - there is probably few better who understand the whole context of what is going on there

Good friend of mine is Martin and you are right that few will understand things better.

[Leisure]

The Man Utd game yesterday being a fine example . The 1000 or so tickets we weren’t allocated went to assorted agencies etc and no doubt generated a hell of a lot more income ( inc merchandise spend etc ) than could ever be had selling to BFC fans . To add insult to injury there were plenty of seats with MU fans in the Burnley end .

Spurs did this in our away cup game , a pitiful 900 ish BFC fans allowed them to sell a large section to day trippers /tourists and also the BFC end was full of grinning half n half scarfed imbeciles.

It wasn't that we weren't allocated those 1200 tickets by Utd, we just didn't request the full allocation. Utd had to offer us a minimum of 3000. Same situation with both Spurs games, we only asked for a small allocation.

PS - didn't see or hear any Utd fans in our section.

[strayclaret]

I’m onewho easily now falls into this category and was a bit miffed at seeing a 26% increase in early bird prices. Whilst I am able to travel the 50 miles, 59 miles diversionary route, whilst the A59 is closed (don’t get me going on that one). I will come on.
My season ticket costs me £18.21 per let’s hope, Premiership game or £15.04 Championship next season. My local club Harrogate is offering me a seat on early bird £13.35.
Even taking into account cost of travel I think I am getting value for money, disregarding the the performances this season.
I in the 1980’s, living in Leeds, young family one income I had to let my season ticket go as I could only afford to only go 3 or times a year , so I understand how difficult it must be for some.
Ok I am a pensioner now and last night I spent £50 a head for a meal near Thirsk and can afford it, but was only a hour and three quarters. I know what’s better value for money, win lose or draw.
UTC

[brexit]

I blame them!

Football has always been about local people and the team that represents their homepage. That is loyalty on several levels.

To think that the space/seat in the ground is just that and requires a maximum income generated, from it, is nothing to do with football and everything to do with a soulless business, missing the point of itself.

The best businesses realise that if you can keep your existing customers, it is a guarantee for years to come, with little effort. The extras cost in marketing etc.

BFC is a commercial entity, not a community trust. They have a fixed amount of supply which they need to maximise profit on. It makes business sense to eliminate concession prices if those seats can be sold as full priced adult tickets.
I think the issue here is more that fans are paying more for the same substandard off pitch experience. I believe the catering in the BL has not improved, and there would appear to be plans for stadium improvements. The derisory half-time entertainment is a running joke among visiting fans.
I am concerned that if lose VK at the end of the season, we could end up being mid-table in the championship for a few years and ALK will want to bail.

[ClaretTony]

I’m onewho easily now falls into this category and was a bit miffed at seeing a 26% increase in early bird prices. Whilst I am able to travel the 50 miles, 59 miles diversionary route, whilst the A59 is closed (don’t get me going on that one). I will come on.
My season ticket costs me £18.21 per let’s hope, Premiership game or £15.04 Championship next season. My local club Harrogate is offering me a seat on early bird £13.35.
Even taking into account cost of travel I think I am getting value for money, disregarding the the performances this season.
I in the 1980’s, living in Leeds, young family one income I had to let my season ticket go as I could only afford to only go 3 or times a year , so I understand how difficult it must be for some.
Ok I am a pensioner now and last night I spent £50 a head for a meal near Thirsk and can afford it, but was only a hour and three quarters. I know what’s better value for money, win lose or draw.
UTC

You just shouldn’t have been seeing an increase so high but worry not, having got away with it last year and this year, they’ll do it again next year. We are not supporters now, we are referred to as general admission tickets and they want more people paying more money.

I will pay less next season than I have this because there will no extras etc from a brew to a shirt. It’s the only way I can do it.

Read Martin’s piece. He can articulate it far, far better than I ever could.

[Casper2]

Same here but I wouldn't say that the increase means that the Club don't want concessionary supporters. Also, I'm not sure that O65's and U22 are that poor that they should have a reduced price.

Maybe do some research before making statements like this .

[strayclaret]

You just shouldn’t have been seeing an increase so high but worry not, having got away with it last year and this year, they’ll do it again next year. We are not supporters now, we are referred to as general admission tickets and they want more people paying more money.

I will pay less next season than I have this because there will no extras etc from a brew to a shirt. It’s the only way I can do it.

Read Martin’s piece. He can articulate it far, far better than I ever could.

Whoops I forgot to mention whilst being financially stressed in the 80’s , l managed to find £45 for 3 £1 shares, because Burnley FC, whilst not coming from the area is what I do. My friends and wife thought I was bonkers, still do.
I benefited from the take over and maxed my capital gains on a 5star holiday in Cyprus, 2 season tickets, shirts. hospitality and bovrils and pies until they stopped it this season.
So I suppose going from 0 to having to pay £76, that’s a 760% increase. I am definitely bonkers

[bfcmik]

All the costs to the club to provide each seat are exactly the same whoever is sitting in the seat. There is no incentive whatsoever to the club to offer concessionary tickets - yet they still do. Many other venues and experiences offer discounts for seniors and children that are only around 5 or 10% of the full price, others MAY be a quid cheaper if any discount is offered.

I get a massive discount, by most standards, at Turf Moor. Perhaps too many of us have simply been offered too much discount over previous seasons and that situation is being remedied. A discount of 25% would still be generous, though I doubt I'd give up my ticket even if prices rose until parity was achieved.

[longsidepies]

That Martin Cloake article (linked up there) is a brilliant read and bang on!

[ClaretTony]

All the costs to the club to provide each seat are exactly the same whoever is sitting in the seat. There is no incentive whatsoever to the club to offer concessionary tickets - yet they still do. Many other venues and experiences offer discounts for seniors and children that are only around 5 or 10% of the full price, others MAY be a quid cheaper if any discount is offered.

I get a massive discount, by most standards, at Turf Moor. Perhaps too many of us have simply been offered too much discount over previous seasons and that situation is being remedied. A discount of 25% would still be generous, though I doubt I'd give up my ticket even if prices rose until parity was achieved.

Remedied? Heaven help us with views like this. I suppose you also think that it’s right for some u22s to get a 142% increase.

[Shipclaret]

I think you have to be careful using wealth in isolation as a comparative measure of spending power. Wealth s not only income but assets such as houses, cars, etc which distorts the picture. Income is a better measure as per ONS data its shows a different pattern.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... nings/2023

[Chris]

As an adult season ticket holder the club are receiving £22.61 per match from me next season if we are in the championship, at £50 a game that seat is worth £1150 if it was full every game on a match by match basis, I buy nothing from the club shop and nothing on the concourse. I think the board would prefer a ‘plastic’ fan in my seat.

[Leisure]

Maybe do some research before making statements like this .

Like what?

[IanMcL]

BFC is a commercial entity, not a community trust. They have a fixed amount of supply which they need to maximise profit on. It makes business sense to eliminate concession prices if those seats can be sold as full priced adult tickets.
I think the issue here is more that fans are paying more for the same substandard off pitch experience. I believe the catering in the BL has not improved, and there would appear to be plans for stadium improvements. The derisory half-time entertainment is a running joke among visiting fans.
I am concerned that if lose VK at the end of the season, we could end up being mid-table in the championship for a few years and ALK will want to bail.

Whilst I agree with some elements, I think you and they are missing the essence of a home town football club.

[IanMcL]

You just shouldn’t have been seeing an increase so high but worry not, having got away with it last year and this year, they’ll do it again next year. We are not supporters now, we are referred to as general admission tickets and they want more people paying more money.

I will pay less next season than I have this because there will no extras etc from a brew to a shirt. It’s the only way I can do it.

Read Martin’s piece. He can articulate it far, far better than I ever could.

From a brew to a shirt is the sentence that should resonate.

[IanMcL]

I do think the price rises for concession are high and have been introduced too fast, but concession tickets are still on average 30% cheaper than a full adult.

A 30% discount does seem a fair amount to me, but does the club really need the extra profit from increasing concession prices, I highly doubt it.

The issue is that thealse increases come 'after careful consideration ' without any reason or game plan. If we understood that there was a justification, then there may be some sign on. This is just commercialism without regard to a loyal, aging fan base.

[Polesworth]

I come under the seniors category. I've been a season ticket holder since 2000 and for each home game I have a 240 mile round trip. Earlier in the year (before the season ticket prices were revealed) I completed an online survey from BFC about 'matchday experience'. As I remember the questioning for each matchday went along the lines of, do you visit/buy kit from the club shop? Do you buy leisure wear from the shop? Do you buy a program? Do you visit/buy from the fan zone? In the ground do you buy food/drink before the game. Do you buy food/drink at half time?
Well my matchday ritual involves a few pre and post (if I stay over) pints in town and a visit to the Park View chippy if hungry so to all the survey questions I answered 'no'.
I now wonder if my answers highlighted a low matchday spend for me and my demographic.
Club's conclusion - these old gits don't spend enough on matchdays so let's screw them with a big rise on their season tickets.

[Sozturf7]

Purely looking at it in a business sense Concessionary supporters have some benefits
The young will hopefully become full paying fans, with a life-time of loyalty to the club buying merchandise and season tickets , If you don't plant the seeds today you might not have the crops (fans) tomorrow.
As for the older end , They have spent their money at full price over the years , they have introduced new fans to the club, (their children) but today what do they offer ? Image of the club looking after their older fan base ? Clubs don't want the negative image/publicity . More loyalty in bad times regardless of what league they are in ! people who have had season tickets since Jimmy Mac and Martin Dobson days are less likely not to renew if we go down a league.
For clubs like Burnley it's very important they appeal to all the fan base. We aren't a big city club with worldwide following and tourist fans.
Its easy for clubs to get greedy in the good times filling up seats with tourist and full price seats but what happens when it goes downhill and all the loyal fans you out priced have found other interests to do on match days.

The best of all the comments. Well thought through, the Board should take note. IMO

[jos]

What exactly ‘is’ a plastic fan?

[Middle-agedClaret]

What exactly ‘is’ a plastic fan?

[taio]

What exactly ‘is’ a plastic fan?

Someone whose support varies significantly according to the club's succes or failure.

[aggi]

I have posted this before - also it was first posted on the MMT

Martin Cloak is well known in Football Fan organisation circles and was a founding member and long time trustee for Tottenham's Supporters Trust - last month he wrote this in response to the Spurs decision re senior citizen ticket prices - there is probably few better who understand the whole context of what is going on there - it also addresses head on that graph which Daniel Levy firmly believes in

I'm not really convinced by that article. Spurs aren't stopping seniors going, just stopping them going cheaper once they hit retirement (and they're not taking it away from existing senior ticket holders). Without addressing why that discount is needed it's just a bit of an emotive piece.

I think you have to be careful using wealth in isolation as a comparative measure of spending power. Wealth s not only income but assets such as houses, cars, etc which distorts the picture. Income is a better measure as per ONS data its shows a different pattern.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... nings/2023

Agreed, there are lots of measures that can be looked at. Obviously the trouble with looking at income is that if you are older and own house/car outright then you're also spending a lot less.

[aggi]

Remedied? Heaven help us with views like this. I suppose you also think that it’s right for some u22s to get a 142% increase.

Out of curiosity, what would you say a reasonable discount would be from a full price season ticket to a seniors one?

[jos]

Someone whose support varies according to the club's succes or failure.

I thought that’s what it was, I could just as easily commute to the Etihad as Turf Moor, but I along with the majority of Burnley fans choose to ride the white knuckle roller coaster of BFC.

I can’t see Alan Pace wanting to alienate the backbone of the support structure.

[Leisure]

Remedied? Heaven help us with views like this. I suppose you also think that it’s right for some u22s to get a 142% increase.

Hi Tony - Is the 142% increase across the board for U22's or just in certain stands?

[ClaretTony]

Out of curiosity, what would you say a reasonable discount would be from a full price season ticket to a seniors one?

It was once 50% across the board at Burnley. I’ve been paying around 40% discount since qualifying but down next season to just over 30%. Rest assured they will reduce that discount further next year if they get the chance.

Young adult prices up anywhere between 44% and 142% is even worse.

[gawthorpe_view]

At a fans Q&A with the manager, I think it was Steve Cotterill, Lee Hoos, our Chief Exec at the time, hijacked the opening and did a bit of a rant the jist of which was 'in the USA, a $70 seat was a $70 seat no matter who sat in it'. He really did have a problem with concession pricing. So it's not surprising that the matter is at least being looked at, nothing new really.

[brexit]

Whilst I agree with some elements, I think you and they are missing the essence of a home town football club.

I agree that we are a hometown football club, but until we have something similar to the German 50+1 ownership model, we will be a club with passionate supporters at the mercy of businessmen trying to make a profit.

[AlargeClaret]

It wasn't that we weren't allocated those 1200 tickets by Utd, we just didn't request the full allocation. Utd had to offer us a minimum of 3000. Same situation with both Spurs games, we only asked for a small allocation.

PS - didn't see or hear any Utd fans in our section.

True .I realise UTD didn’t “ refuse to sell “ as such , more an example of how lucrative 1200 tickets can be when sold to into a high demand market from a mega brand like MU. Maybe 3 x the revenue pro rata possibly much more .

Though suprising the club turned down so many .