Andre Gray

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:16 am

TVC15 wrote:F-uck me some fans will clutch at any straw when they have it in for a player.

Gray scored an absolute bag full and tore apart plenty of good centre backs and defences

Nobody is going to play well in every game - exactly which top teams did he struggle against ?.....as all of the team struggled against Boro and Hull - yet we still won the division and finished higher than them....and we would not have done that with Gray.

Whether he's good enough for the Premier League none of us know yet - but you can say that for all of our team - with the exception of Heaton and Keane.

But for fans to say they knew Gray was not good enough based on his "pathetic" 25 goals in the Championship winning side is pretty embarrassing

Where did I say his pathetic 25 goals in the championship?

I said he struggled against top centre halves which he did an always does. Not clutching at straws by stating the facts about how he scored those goals.
I understand fans can be biased towards there favorite players just like some fans will give an honest opinion regardless of if they play for us or not

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:27 am

I'm pretty sure that almost all strikers will struggle against top centre halves. That's why they're top centre halves.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:39 am

Tall Paul wrote:I'm pretty sure that almost all strikers will struggle against top centre halves. That's why they're top centre halves.

Maybe rephrase that to decent centre halves then, grant Hanley had gray in his pocket in both games against venkys last season.

Was being kind to him saying top centre halves.

ShabbaRanks · Post by **ShabbaRanks** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:48 am

Tell you what, he needs to sort out how often he gets caught offside.

Wasn't as much of a problem in the Championship as we were creating the same amount of chances as teams in the PL are creating against us now.

When his offsides are 33% of the chances we create, something remedial needs to be done

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:02 am

bumba wrote:Where did I say his pathetic 25 goals in the championship?

I said he struggled against top centre halves which he did an always does. Not clutching at straws by stating the facts about how he scored those goals.
I understand fans can be biased towards there favorite players just like some fans will give an honest opinion regardless of if they play for us or not

You said he struggled against top centre halfs in the championship.....with a pretty clear implication he wasn't one of the best strikers at that level.

We didn't play well against Blackburn in both games - so it's fair to say the whole team struggled against them....yet we finished about 100 points ahead of them which means that over the course of the season Gray (and others) were better players than than them.

Given where Blackburn finished in the table then Hanley must have struggled against a number of strikers - are these better than Gray or in your book "top strikers" ?

Which other top centre halfs are you referring to ? Is it those where Gray didn't score against ? As that really is a strange argument.

There's no bias here and I have never said he is one of my favourite players - I just don't get why fans would have a pop at Grays performance last season and then try and relate it to this season where week in / week out he is playing against £100m plus defences

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:17 am

There is one enormous element missing from Gray's game right now.

Confidence.

Most players are different when they have confidence but the difference in Gray was particularly stark last season. When he was confident and had the benefit of a goal or two behind him, his entire game was more refined. I imagine that is because he's a player who plays on instinct rather than on calculating things on the pitch in his head. The more he trusts his instincts the better he is.

The good news is that he is getting the odd chance. He had a couple of decent ones yesterday by all accounts and certainly was unlucky not to score v bournemouth.

Once he gets a goal, then we might just see a different Andre. Certainly it seems wrong to judge Andre by reference to his performances when he's been in and out of the team and hasnt scored in more than 3 months (not necessarily for reasons in his control).

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:21 am

TVC15 wrote:You said he struggled against top centre halfs in the championship.....with a pretty clear implication he wasn't one of the best strikers at that level.

We didn't play well against Blackburn in both games - so it's fair to say the whole team struggled against them....yet we finished about 100 points ahead of them which means that over the course of the season Gray (and others) were better players than than them.

Given where Blackburn finished in the table then Hanley must have struggled against a number of strikers - are these better than Gray or in your book "top strikers" ?

Which other top centre halfs are you referring to ? Is it those where Gray didn't score against ? As that really is a strange argument.

There's no bias here and I have never said he is one of my favourite players - I just don't get why fans would have a pop at Grays performance last season and then try and relate it to this season where week in / week out he is playing against £100m plus defences

I think only city if any have a defence worth over £100 million, 100 points clear of venkys? Slight exaggeration!

Not slated his performances last season just stating a fact that he struggled against the better centre halves the majority of his goals came against teams out of the top 8.

I just really struggle to see how anybody watching Andre gray believes he can make it in the premiership, I want him to go on an be brilliant but with his touch an other attributes he hasn't got he will really struggle an just isn't up to it.

Defenders in this league would rather mark gray than Barnes which is telling us something

Redbeard · Post by **Redbeard** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:23 am

I agree with Spice.

And btw how come no-one remembers that Andre almost set up Vokesy for a late equaliser yesterday with a brilliant ball into the box?

Had Vokes scored from it - and it only needed a touch - then perhaps this thread wouldn't have appeared on the board.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:25 am

TVC15 wrote:F-uck me some fans will clutch at any straw when they have it in for a player.

Gray scored an absolute bag full and tore apart plenty of good centre backs and defences

Nobody is going to play well in every game - exactly which top teams did he struggle against ?.....as all of the team struggled against Boro and Hull - yet we still won the division and finished higher than them....and we would not have done that with Gray.

Whether he's good enough for the Premier League none of us know yet - but you can say that for all of our team - with the exception of Heaton and Keane.

But for fans to say they knew Gray was not good enough based on his "pathetic" 25 goals in the Championship winning side is pretty embarrassing

Complete nonsense.

Let's at least state facts. In around 18 games for Burnley against top half sides last season (due to where they finished) Gray scored 5 goals, of which 2 were penalties. That's scoring in about 15% of games ignoring pens.

That's a fact. You can dress it up how you want but stats do not lie (contrary to misunderstood opinion). Gray has always struggled against better players and is still struggling this season. Whether I like him or want him to succeed is irrelevant, but as I said above, there is potential in him, which is one of several plus points. Personally, I think Bamford is a better player at this level, but doesn't represent the up and at em approach Dyche seems to want as a unique selling point for the way we play, so fair do, it may work.

ClaretCliff · Post by **ClaretCliff** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:02 am

SGr wrote:Can't pass to save his life

Yes -wasn't it a shame he couldnt deliver a sublime pass to Boyd so that he could have scored the winner against Bournemouth.

SGr · Post by **SGr** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:18 am

ClaretCliff wrote:Yes -wasn't it a shame he couldnt deliver a sublime pass to Boyd so that he could have scored the winner against Bournemouth.

Impressive assist. But he tries one of those backheels very often and they barely ever come off - surely you're not going to try and put forward a case for his passing ability

ClaretCliff · Post by **ClaretCliff** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:25 am

Not sure it's VERY often he tri s one of those, in fact I think he only tried the one in that match and it worked! And I'm not saying he is the best passer of the ball, but he is not completely useless as you said.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:51 am

bumba wrote:Defenders in this league would rather mark gray than Barnes which is telling us something

How do you know that? Spoken to them, have you?

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:19 am

to be fair, gray is less likely to elbow them.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:47 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Complete nonsense.

Let's at least state facts. In around 18 games for Burnley against top half sides last season (due to where they finished) Gray scored 5 goals, of which 2 were penalties. That's scoring in about 15% of games ignoring pens.

That's a fact. You can dress it up how you want but stats do not lie (contrary to misunderstood opinion). Gray has always struggled against better players and is still struggling this season. Whether I like him or want him to succeed is irrelevant, but as I said above, there is potential in him, which is one of several plus points. Personally, I think Bamford is a better player at this level, but doesn't represent the up and at em approach Dyche seems to want as a unique selling point for the way we play, so fair do, it may work.

The only nonsense is coming from you

Gray got a number of assists last year also - just because he did not score in every game does not mean he didn't play well.

Last year Gray did what no other striker in championship could do.

Not sure how you can judge him this year given what's happened with the ban - if you judge him pre ban then he scored a great goal against one of the best sides in the Premier League and he was on fire in the pre season friendlies and by some distance our sharpest player in those friendlies.

The ban has clearly had a big impact on him as a person and a player. He has not had the run of games and does not have his confidence back yet.

He played well v Bournemouth and played well yesterday. Was he not playing against "top" centre halves in these games ? Or does he have to score in every game to meet your approval ?

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:48 pm

Tall Paul wrote:How do you know that? Spoken to them, have you?

Its pretty obvious. Grays first touch starts the oppositions attacks off, defenders handle strikers like gray with ease at this level his stats this season show that

Jambo · Post by **Jambo** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:02 pm

They handle him with ease because the balls we've been giving him this season have been largely rubbish. We are learning though - yesterday there were a lot of good balls into the channels and he rolled his defender a couple of times to get away. Contrast that to West Ham where he was constantly having to battle with his back to goal, 30-35+ yards out, so we are improving - but the service can still get a lot better.

The cross from Ward is a good chance but Lloris makes a good save - it happens. But like a lot of strikers he's a confidence player and once he gets one, he'll likely go on a good run. Since he's still our most likely goalscorer - I can't see any evidence for Bamford being a more likely scorer in the PL I'm afraid - we've got to be a bit patient and improve the service to him. He's essentially had one chance in the last two games and forced a good stop from a world-class goalkeeper. Most strikers will struggle under those conditions but the way we were set up against Spurs was much more suited to his strengths.

He needs to make better decisions at times too, but the play right at the end to almost set up Vokes was really positive. He's getting there.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:06 pm

In addition to his goals last season, Gray was also second highest in the league for assists.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:18 pm

aggi wrote:In addition to his goals last season, Gray was also second highest in the league for assists.

How does he rank in the charts this season?

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:58 pm

Andre has as many PL goals now as Jamie Vardy had after 27 appearances in his first season in the PL, in fact, Vardy only started scoring regularly in his last 10 games of that season when he scored 5 goals in a run of 7 wins, 2 draws and 1 defeat which saw Leicester stay up.
Andre has virtually had to start his season again after his ban and has been on the pitch for 385 minutes in 6 matches, he just needs to settle down and keep working and it will come good for him. I think that he is often trying to do things before he is actually in control of the ball and if he can just take that split second to ensure he gets control he would become a better player, he was also guilty of this on occasions last season.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:09 pm

bumba wrote:How does he rank in the charts this season?

Pr-ick

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:44 pm

TVC15 wrote:Pr-ick

Not very well then?

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:33 pm

bumba wrote:How does he rank in the charts this season?

He's second for Burnley, which isn't bad given his limited gametime.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:42 pm

aggi wrote:In addition to his goals last season, Gray was also second highest in the league for assists.

Gray got 6 assists for us last season of which the highest finishing side to assist against was Brentford.

I think the facts on assists help prove the point the other way to be fair.

I understand and respect opinions that Gray may start to deliver fairly regularly against the better sides (I.e. The top 30 in England). What nobody has provided though is any evidence that he has done so yet. Whereas there is plenty of evidence that he hasn't.

I'm not writing him off, but as it stands he is way short of the standard of Ings and as such we need to look to improve on Andre in January or there is a real risk that historic stats will continue into the second half of the season.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/andre-gr ... aison=2015

Deardeary · Post by **Deardeary** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:54 pm

Radio London on live commentary from WHL yesterday-

"Spurs CH's have been given a real going over in this game by Barnes and in particular Gray, who hasn't given Dier a moments peace, proving beyond doubt that like a good number of his team mates he too can make the step up to PL, very impressed with how Burnley have gone about this game"

Now if the local radio is saying that about the opposition, it's time to listen and maybe some should lend some support?

what_no_pies · Post by **what_no_pies** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:02 pm

ShabbaRanks wrote:Tell you what, he needs to sort out how often he gets caught offside.

Wasn't as much of a problem in the Championship as we were creating the same amount of chances as teams in the PL are creating against us now.

When his offsides are 33% of the chances we create, something remedial needs to be done

We created fewer than average chances last season and concede far more than average as we also did last year. Sorry, but that second sentence is nonsense.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:36 pm

aggi wrote:He's second for Burnley, which isn't bad given his limited gametime.

One goal? He isn't second for burnley

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:38 pm

I thought that a big part of his problem is that he has to work with an immobile target in Sam Vokes. I think that Vokes has been our biggest disappointment this year and that soon he deserves to lose his spot. He did work well with Boyd vs. Bournemouth, though.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:49 pm

bumba wrote:One goal? He isn't second for burnley

Two assists. He is second for Burnley.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:03 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Gray got 6 assists for us last season of which the highest finishing side to assist against was Brentford.

I think the facts on assists help prove the point the other way to be fair.

I understand and respect opinions that Gray may start to deliver fairly regularly against the better sides (I.e. The top 30 in England). What nobody has provided though is any evidence that he has done so yet. Whereas there is plenty of evidence that he hasn't.

I'm not writing him off, but as it stands he is way short of the standard of Ings and as such we need to look to improve on Andre in January or there is a real risk that historic stats will continue into the second half of the season.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/andre-gr ... aison=2015

It was 8 (or possibly 9 depending where you look) for Burnley last year.

I can see where you're coming from but I think attempting that game by game analysis on the basis of one season is iffy. We kept fewer clean sheets against the top teams but people wouldn't suggest that Heaton could only perform against lower teams.

I agree he's not as good Ings, that's why Ings is at Liverpool. If we could get a player of that caliber in then I'd say go for it, however nothing in our transfer dealings suggest that's likely.

Writing a young player off on the basis of a selection of games from one season strikes me as short-sighted.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:08 pm

aggi wrote:Two assists. He is second for Burnley.

One goal two assists
Vokes has four goals and one assist
Defour has one goal and three assists I put gray third

Slurpy · Post by **Slurpy** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:12 pm

bumba wrote:One goal two assists
Vokes has four goals and one assist
Defour has one goal and three assists I put gray third

Hendrick has 2...

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:22 pm

TVC15 wrote:Gray wasn't good enough against the top sides ?

Didn't he score against Brighton home and away ? Sheffield Wednesday, Derby.....and no doubt numerous others if I could be bothered to check.

Not sure what some fans want or the basis for some of their views.....leading goal scorer - 24/25 goals etc etc

Make of this what you will:
6 goals against top half teams last season.

He's come a long way in a short time, and had this season messed up with the suspension.
He is finding it difficult at EPL level, needs support to boost his confidence.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:24 pm

bumba wrote:One goal two assists
Vokes has four goals and one assist
Defour has one goal and three assists I put gray third

That puts him second in assists ffs !

Jambo · Post by **Jambo** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:30 pm

ontario claret wrote:I thought that a big part of his problem is that he has to work with an immobile target in Sam Vokes. I think that Vokes has been our biggest disappointment this year and that soon he deserves to lose his spot. He did work well with Boyd vs. Bournemouth, though.

Who is our top goalscorer?

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:34 pm

4 goals for a "top goal scorer" is not productive at this time of the season. I put Vokes with Jamie Vardy. 'Nuf said.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:49 pm

Gray reminds me of Johnny Francis. Takes ages to get the ball under his control and never seems to fully have it tamed, but quite capable of producing a moment of magic or destroying a defender with his genuine pace, Frustrating and exciting in equal measure, but this season tends to be much more of the former. Does that point to the fact that the standard has gone above him?? Not sure.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:49 pm

TVC15 wrote:That puts him second in assists ffs !

We was talking about goals and assists

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:55 pm

bumba wrote:We was talking about goals and assists

You may have been.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:00 pm

One goal and two assists isn't good enough

roamingclaret · Post by **roamingclaret** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:08 pm

Deardeary wrote:Radio London on live commentary from WHL yesterday-

"Spurs CH's have been given a real going over in this game by Barnes and in particular Gray, who hasn't given Dier a moments peace, proving beyond doubt that like a good number of his team mates he too can make the step up to PL, very impressed with how Burnley have gone about this game"

Now if the local radio is saying that about the opposition, it's time to listen and maybe some should lend some support?

I agree...He's only just getting into his stride...he looked a real handful at Stoke & Spurs...goals will come!

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:41 pm

bumba wrote:We was talking about goals and assists

We were talking about assists - but you have been on your own agenda for the whole of this thread

As for one goal and 2 assists not being good enough - it's funny how you seem to completely ignore what's happened to him this season with the ban....or the fact he is young and inexperienced and having to step up in one of the hardest leagues in the world.

For minutes on the pitch he is already doing better than many other strikers in this league who are being paid a lot more than Gray....and that's without him anywhere near where he could be in confidence levels, sharpness etc

Find it pretty unbelievable that so called Burnley fans are criticising Gray at this early stage of the season after what he did last year and what happened to him this season.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:42 pm

An honest opinion that he isn't good enough is now an agenda?

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:47 pm

bumba wrote:An honest opinion that he isn't good enough is now an agenda?

Yep

claretman1 · Post by **claretman1** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:53 pm

Not sure why anyone thinks he is quick. I can't think of a single prem defender he's outpaced. However, I do think he's showing signs of improvement.

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:56 pm

Andre is the only player in our squad with any type of explosive nature. Yes he's limited but get him running at defenders and they're scared of him. He easily out-sprinted the Bournemouth back line the other week and almost scored. Given the zero pace / mobility we have out wide I'd say it's absolutely essential that Andre and Ashley Barnes start every game.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:57 pm

claretman1 wrote:Not sure why anyone thinks he is quick. I can't think of a single prem defender he's outpaced. However, I do think he's showing signs of improvement.

Probably because he was clocked as the third or fourth fastest player in the league earlier in the season.

Gray's doing fine. The stats from last season and the top teams in the league are completely misleading because there are a number of factors behind those stats. Better teams last year tended to have well organised defences that sat deep against us to deny us (and Gray in particular) space, but Gray still managed a perfectly respectable record against them. This season, of course, there's typically been more space in behind for him to exploit. Just needs a bit of confidence in front of goal, and perhaps a better supply line too.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:59 pm

claretman1 wrote:Not sure why anyone thinks he is quick. I can't think of a single prem defender he's outpaced. However, I do think he's showing signs of improvement.

How about the whole of the Liverpool defence for his goal and also for the chance in the second half when he rolled their centre back and sprinted away from him easily. Just should that on Sky Sports where Carragher was saying Lukaku could give their centre backs the same problems as Gray did with his pace

Or the Bournemouth game after he came on and easily outpaced their defence to set up his shot on goal ?

He's very clearly got pace

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:16 pm

The best defenders don't get themselves into situations where a striker can out-pace them. It's positional sense and anticipation, two things that Andre can improve on and hopefully will as the season goes on.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:22 pm

One thing that should have been on the shopping list in the Summer was an upgrade in the forwards department to get the best out of Gray. Vokes isn't really up to scratch at this level. Barnes is probably a better foil for Gray but always seems to be perilously close to seeing red. Gray is a goalscorer and he'll score at this level if he gets the chances to do so. A strike partner who is more mobile than Vokes and more subtle than Barnes would certainly help his cause. Playing our only midfielder who is capable of spotting his runs and getting the ball to him wouldn't go amiss, either.