**** VAR

[boatshed bill]

I still doubt the accuracy as light travels faster than sound.

[Burnley87]

Anyone who says the offside is correct is taking into account two manikins and a software system that is providing you image based on what they want to show you as fact. Now I don’t care either way as long as it works fairly to all parties all season but I don’t believe this is in the interest of football long term.

[Andreshotboots]

Saw the Fulham one in the pub in the game before the match absolutely ridiculous decision. If ever a ref was made for VAR and an announcement to the crowd it’s Rob Jones.

Something I've thought for a while now, we have the best league in the World with some of the best players in it, arrogant maybe, but why don't we go and cherry pick some of the best referees and assistants from around Europe and World, and bring them in? I'm sure financially we could offer better packages than they currently receive.

I don't care about the "we have to bring our own through", if they're good enough, they'll make it just like a player would.

Our officiating is getting worse season after season, yet we're throwing more cash and tech at it. It needs to change..

[Andreshotboots]

Or seeing as the game is called football just go off the bloody feet!! I dont care about sleeves, armpits, a cm of a knee, let's just use the bloody feet and simplify it..

[yTib]

Or seeing as the game is called football just go off the bloody feet!! I dont care about sleeves, armpits, a cm of a knee, let's just use the bloody feet and simplify it..

that won't simplify it. a millimeter is still a millimeter even on a football boot.

daylight is the answer because it's either there or it isn't.

imagine var taking 8 seconds rather than 8 minutes.

[KlyBfc]

Or seeing as the game is called football just go off the bloody feet!! I dont care about sleeves, armpits, a cm of a knee, let's just use the bloody feet and simplify it..

I agree it should be the feet after all these are what ‘give someone the advantage’. They kick it, move the attacker, push them off to jump/ slide etc for a header or a volley.

[scouseclaret]

I don't really buy any of this VAR against us b**ocks, I think we just have sore losers here.

Mount pen claim - the right call. Had a ref not had Var and is looked from behind Walker, he is never seeing the pull and so decision stands
Foster offside goal - you have to be clear and obvious to be onside and it had always been to the benefit of the defending side. This was absolutely down the mm and I'm gutted because it was a lovely finish but its increibly tight.
Anthony pull - no complaints. It's a pen.

Its had and does have its mental moments, but today wasn't one of them. I though the officiating was relatively fair for both sides

You’re completely wrong about the Foster offside. It’s nothing to do with clear and obvious - offside is deemed a matter of fact, not opinion, and part of the rule is if you’re level, you’re on. If that graphic shows anything of worth ( and I really don’t think it does) it shows that Foster is level.

[CrosspoolClarets]

You’re completely wrong about the Foster offside. It’s nothing to do with clear and obvious - offside is deemed a matter of fact, not opinion, and part of the rule is if you’re level, you’re on. If that graphic shows anything of worth ( and I really don’t think it does) it shows that Foster is level.

You are right here, he is level, and for me the VAR should have 30 seconds to prove the clear offside or it is on, i.e. if head scratching is involved then it is more or less level and onside.

One things for sure it’s killing the game.

[Indecisive]

Then why is the defenders shirt also in colour?

The defender should not have any part in colour.

The line is wrong.

I believe the technicality of this must be. All the defender that is in colour is his arm (which you can’t score a goal with so this is actually discounted). I assume (although the graphic is not clear) that the line ends shows a fraction of fosters shoulder ( which you can’t score a goals with so isn’t discounted).

I assume although fosters foot looks to be in front of Dalots, that they aren’t highlighted as they are not goal side of the part of fosters body which is offside (the minor fraction of shoulder).

I could be wrong.

Totally agree with Parkers assessment of the game.

Re. The penalty. For me common sense should come into play and , if anything, the attacking players clear simulation (ie falling forward despite being ‘pulled back’) should count against him. It doesn’t. Also for me the ref does not make a ‘clear and obvious’ error in not awarding the penalty initially. Is that still a rule though? I don’t know. Var changes constantly. It ruining the fans experience.

And I have just wasted 5 mins of my life typing that. Thanks var.

[yTib]

If that graphic shows anything of worth ( and I really don’t think it does) it shows that Foster is level.

no offence but that is a nonsensical sentence.

judging offside with daylight rather than fingertips will be both quicker to determine and less contentious.

why this is not happening leads me to believe the powers that be love the drama because it probably sells more volumes of crap beer.

[Roosterbooster]

that won't simplify it. a millimeter is still a millimeter even on a football boot.

daylight is the answer because it's either there or it isn't.

imagine var taking 8 seconds rather than 8 minutes.

Daylight doesn't solve it either
What if you're not sure if it's 0.00000001mm of daylight or less
And you still have to mark the relative positions on the players. If anything that makes it more complicated

[yTib]

Daylight doesn't solve it either
What if you're not sure if it's 0.00000001mm of daylight or less
And you still have to mark the relative positions on the players. If anything that makes it more complicated

daylight is an absolute. you can either see it or you can't.

but i'll settle for clear daylight.

[Goalposts]

Before var we used to debate refs decisions and feel robbed,
Var was brought in to remove doubt and bring clarity.

The reality is it has just replaced refs errors at the expense of the game .. var decisions supposedly to bring clarity ridicule the game , remove the instant joy and make the game a mockery - every year it gets worse.

Give the owner back to the refs , and i personally would rather live with it rather than. Var nonsense.

Otherwise over the next ten years it will be a non contact sport and be a shadow of its former self.

[Bacchus]

'Daylight' only works as a deciding factor if you can guarantee the view is at exactly 90 degrees to the touchline across the pitch. Shift it a degree or two either way and 'daylight' appears or disappears.

[Hibsclaret]

The problem with giving it back to the refs means that they get the first pen today even though it’s not a foul or in the area. The big clubs get the benefit of doubt with or without VAR.

[yTib]

'Daylight' only works as a deciding factor if you can guarantee the view is at exactly 90 degrees to the touchline across the pitch. Shift it a degree or two either way and 'daylight' appears or disappears.

a cogent point.

perhaps more cameras?

or maybe the current system (hawkeye?) with a margin of error of ≈1cm with the benefit of doubt with the attacker.

[Goody1975]

Amad is an example of what is wrong with modern football.

He has a major problem with his legs going to sleep but pundits and fans have been brainwashed over decades to accept that it's part of the game and in fact to celebrate it as 'good play'.

[yTib]

Amad is an example of what is wrong with modern football.

the fact that one injustice of modern footy is swamped by another makes me less and less interested in it.

give me five years i'll be watching ******* golf.

[martin_p]

Re. The penalty. For me common sense should come into play and , if anything, the attacking players clear simulation (ie falling forward despite being ‘pulled back’) should count against him. It doesn’t.

He falls forward because Anthony let go. I’m afraid the physics work in this particular instance.

[CoolClaret]

He falls forward because Anthony let go. I’m afraid the physics work in this particular instance.

He falls forward because he threw himself to the ground.

[Holmechapel]

Unfortunately when we got promoted we signed up for all this crap,best thing that could happen is that the so called big clubs sod off into their super sterile big league and take their VAR with them and the likes of us and the other 86 clubs dump VAR and return to the happier times when if the ball went into the net and the ref pointed to the centre spot and the Lino kept his flag down then it was a goal.

[yTib]

He falls forward because Anthony let go. I’m afraid the physics work in this particular instance.

i've just watched that 'fall' three times on iplayer.

he was on his way down before anthony let go of his shirt.

a blatant dive and the frantic reaction afterwards is just as much cheating as the act of diving.

[Goody1975]

If the powers that be had a zero tolerance and hard line attitude to simulation, in all it's forms, then they'd make the game a better spectacle for the fans but also help their officials out immeasurably.

That isn't just in game but also retrospective punishments.

[Goody1975]

i've just watched that 'fall' three times on iplayer.

he was on his way down before anthony let go of his shirt.

a blatant dive and the frantic reaction afterwards is just as much cheating as the act of diving.

His 'attempt' in the first half when Hartman won the ball was another example.

[yTib]

i think that the word 'simulation' has usurped 'cheating' is part of the problem but i agree.

i might be paranoid but i honestly think it is encouraged by sponsors. there's nothing like a contentious debate to sell fosters/carling/catspyss.

[Goalposts]

I think the truth is for your fans that go to the game we no longer come into the equation. It’s all about the armchair supporter , who wants drama and nonsense. Don’t really bleed for the team it’s just an online experience for them . Over seas viewers are far more important than home viewers, and there in is the challenge. Can it be sold as drama and saga not what the game is to people who live and breath it at home. Apologies to the grammar police but ive had a few double whiskeys now ive got back from manchester

[JimmyRobbo]

I don't really buy any of this VAR against us b**ocks, I think we just have sore losers here.

Mount pen claim - the right call. Had a ref not had Var and is looked from behind Walker, he is never seeing the pull and so decision stands
Foster offside goal - you have to be clear and obvious to be onside and it had always been to the benefit of the defending side. This was absolutely down the mm and I'm gutted because it was a lovely finish but its increibly tight.
Anthony pull - no complaints. It's a pen.

Its had and does have its mental moments, but today wasn't one of them. I though the officiating was relatively fair for both sides

I sort of agree with you but the tug clearly started outside the area and for years, the fk is given at the point of 1st contact (which I have never really agreed with anyway) but in this instance it isn't a "clear and obvious" mistake.

The offside, I thought was correct at the time. The still which they put out as evidence is what worries me.

What about the foul for the set-piece which created the 1st goal: am I right that it just wasn't a foul? It didn't look llike a foul to me. Not even in modern circles.

[dvalley69]

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-go ... ---offside

"1. Offside position

It is not an offence to be in an offside position.

A player is in an offside position if:
any part of the head, body or feet is in the opponents’ half (excluding the halfway line) and
any part of the head, body or feet is nearer to the opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent
The hands and arms of all players, including the goalkeepers, are not considered. For the purposes of determining offside, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit.

A player is not in an offside position if level with the:
second-last opponent or
last two opponents"

There is no way from that graphic, according to the above criteria, that offside can be determined. This is not what VAR etc was meant to be for.

I sincerely hope the club emply someone with the remit of supplying feedback on such decisions on a weekly basis. If that's the rule it is a clear mistake and punishment needs to be made. It's so blatantly bad!

[LincsWoldsClaret]

VAR - at best 96% accurate
At worst 83% accurate
Depending on whether you believe the PL or University studies
Can it tell if anyone is marginally offside?

[yTib]

VAR - at best 96% accurate
At worst 83% accurate
Depending on whether you believe the PL or University studies
Can it tell if anyone is marginally offside?

and at least 80% subjective which is the problem.

it undermines the referee and murders the celebration of a goal.

the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Rileybobs]

Leaving aside how shite VAR is, I can’t see a problem with the semi-automated CGI of Foster. The line is taken from Foster’s upper arm - the ridiculously ambiguous ‘t-shirt line’, and shows that part of his body is ahead of the Man U defender’s ’t-shirt line’. By the law of the game it’s offside. It’s marginal, very unfortunate, and also level by the old laws of the game, but the technology used in this division shows Foster to be offside. The assistant ref also flagged (as it turns out correctly) so this decision wasn’t even impacted by VAR. Where’s the contention?

[scouseclaret]

Re the penalty decision, for me the most telling comment came from the MoTD commentator, whose immediate reaction when Amad went down was “he’ll get nothing for that.” It just didn’t look like a penalty - that’s why the ref didn’t give it.

[fidelcastro]

Leaving aside how shite VAR is, I can’t see a problem with the semi-automated CGI of Foster. The line is taken from Foster’s upper arm - the ridiculously ambiguous ‘t-shirt line’, and shows that part of his body is ahead of the Man U defender’s ’t-shirt line’. By the law of the game it’s offside. It’s marginal, very unfortunate, and also level by the old laws of the game, but the technology used in this division shows Foster to be offside. The assistant ref also flagged (as it turns out correctly) so this decision wasn’t even impacted by VAR. Where’s the contention?

I haven't read all the thread, but do you think they got the late penalty right?

[yTib]

Re the penalty decision, for me the most telling comment came from the MoTD commentator, whose immediate reaction when Amad went down was “he’ll get nothing for that.” It just didn’t look like a penalty - that’s why the ref didn’t give it.

on final score the fella said 'he was tugging his shirt outside of the box' followed by '100% penalty'.

it's that kind of logic that baffles us all.

[Andreshotboots]

Re the penalty decision, for me the most telling comment came from the MoTD commentator, whose immediate reaction when Amad went down was “he’ll get nothing for that.” It just didn’t look like a penalty - that’s why the ref didn’t give it.

Commentary is edited d to the highlights on MOTD after the games have finished, so he will have known full well what the result was.

It was just to make the VAR call sound dramatic..

[boyyanno]

VAR is so flawed in my opinion.

I don't know why they keep up the pretence of having the referee look at the monitor after VAR tells him too, they told him today for example that it was sustained holding etc, then they only show the ref the specific stills and slow mo angles that back up the decision they've already made.

The second flaw is that it uses the excuse of not being a clear and obvious error when it suits and then spends most of the game scrutinising every single chance/angle/aspect to try and give some sort of decision. We're now seeing it exploited by players who hit the deck and make a massive fuss to try and get a review.

If anything I think it's got worse over it's time which is really saying somthing. I'd favour a challenge based system, each team gets 1 or 2 a game and that's it.

[Rileybobs]

I haven't read all the thread, but do you think they got the late penalty right?

Haven’t seen it back yet, but watching live I would say no.

[Ric_C]

Let's put it this way. I've watched 5 games recently:

Burnley v Sunderland
Fulham v Utd
Newcastle v Liverpool
Chelsea v Fulham
Utd v Burnley

The inconsistencies as to what is a foul and what isn't, what is a push, handball, careless etc, has MASSIVELY varied depending on the team in question.

This needs sorting, but was always going to happen once VAR became a thing. It will always give an extra layer of protection to the big clubs, and promote players cheating.

[boyyanno]

Let's put it this way. I've watched 5 games recently:

Burnley v Sunderland
Fulham v Utd
Newcastle v Liverpool
Chelsea v Fulham
Utd v Burnley

The inconsistencies as to what is a foul and what isn't, what is a push, handball, careless etc, has MASSIVELY varied depending on the team in question.

This needs sorting, but was always going to happen once VAR became a thing. It will always give an extra layer of protection to the big clubs, and promote players cheating.

In terms of big club bias I don't blame VAR for that, the truth is I think there are far too many weak/poor officials who succumb to the pressure of either big clubs or big crowds- it's happened for years on the pitch, we've just seen that it also effects those in the VAR room too.

I hate VAR but I also think there is a wider issue with poor officials generally, the accepted standard of refereeing in this country seems to be poor.

[dsr]

VAR is so flawed in my opinion.

I don't know why they keep up the pretence of having the referee look at the monitor after VAR tells him too, they told him today for example that it was sustained holding etc, then they only show the ref the specific stills and slow mo angles that back up the decision they've already made.

The second flaw is that it uses the excuse of not being a clear and obvious error when it suits and then spends most of the game scrutinising every single chance/angle/aspect to try and give some sort of decision. We're now seeing it exploited by players who hit the deck and make a massive fuss to try and get a review.

If anything I think it's got worse over it's time which is really saying somthing. I'd favour a challenge based system, each team gets 1 or 2 a game and that's it.

You're right. Man U's penalty against Fulham was an incident where Mount went towards the defender and put his arms round him, the defender similarly put his arms round him and "threw him to the floor". The ref only got to see the incident from the point after the defender put his arms round Mount. The VAR man didn't want to show the ref the whole scene.

I wonder if refs ever have flaming rows with each other after the match, if the proper ref thinks the VAR ref has made a fool of him?

[willsclarets]

If VAR was taken away today, there'd be celebrations across the country at the next round of fixtures. Hardly a soul would want to keep it. It's the worst thing that's ever happened to the game.

[RVclaret]

If VAR was taken away today, there'd be celebrations across the country at the next round of fixtures. Hardly a soul would want to keep it. It's the worst thing that's ever happened to the game.

A few important souls want to keep it, I’m afraid. PL clubs voted 19 - 1 a year or so ago.

[Big Vinny K]

How does pulling someone’s shirt from behind make them fall forward ?

It’s blatant cheating and simulation. Amad obviously feels his shirt being pulled and then decides to try and get the penalty. If he doesn’t deliberately fall forward and the force of the pulling stops him from running forward then the referee has a decision to make as to whether it’s a penalty and tbh if that did happen then it probably is a penalty given it wasn’t a tussle or both players were at it etc.

You see this in the game all the time and especially in the EPL. The player feels something so he throws himself to the ground and then the analysis is often that the player did get the slightest touch or did have some of his shirt. But this is simulation - they are trying to con the referee into thinking that the incident caused the fall. And it’s clear now that it’s worth trying as it’s given so often. Defenders do it all the time too - trying to shield the ball for example and they feel an arm on their back and launch themselves on to the floor and free kicks are given all the time.

The game has gone in so many respects

[willsclarets]

A few important souls want to keep it, I’m afraid. PL clubs voted 19 - 1 a year or so ago.

Yeah sorry I meant the fans really. It's just a bit sad what it's done to the experience of a game. I think everyone saw the need for technology integration, but they've made an absolute mess of implementation to the point where what we recognise as football has changed.

At the end of the day, the players need to adapt more. For some of these ridiculous decisions its impossible like the Fulham goal. But Anthony there has to have something in his head that screams "var would catch this". Easier said than done in the heat of the moment when you're knackered, but I wonder how much mental training they do to improve decision making with var in mind. Maybe I'm being unrealistic.

[dushanbe]

If we accept the VAR decisons yesterday were correct, then the referee has had an absolute shocker. Got two massive decisions wrong. It isn’t often that referees are overturned twice by VAR in a game.

[Carport]

Leaving aside how shite VAR is, I can’t see a problem with the semi-automated CGI of Foster. The line is taken from Foster’s upper arm - the ridiculously ambiguous ‘t-shirt line’, and shows that part of his body is ahead of the Man U defender’s ’t-shirt line’. By the law of the game it’s offside. It’s marginal, very unfortunate, and also level by the old laws of the game, but the technology used in this division shows Foster to be offside. The assistant ref also flagged (as it turns out correctly) so this decision wasn’t even impacted by VAR. Where’s the contention?

The contention is surely that the very point at which the ball leaves the passer’s foot cannot be accurately captured by camera freeze frame. So in the Foster offside decision where the margin is in millimetres, how can we be certain that the freeze frame image we’ve been shown of a small amount of his shirt being past the last defender’s fractional amount of shirt correlates with the exact moment the ball left the passer’s foot?

[agreenwood]

The contention is surely that the very point at which the ball leaves the passer’s foot cannot be accurately captured by camera freeze frame. So in the Foster offside decision where the margin is in millimetres, how can we be certain that the freeze frame image we’ve been shown of a small amount of his shirt being past the last defender’s fractional amount of shirt correlates with the exact moment the ball left the passer’s foot?

I completely agree with this, but that’s a policy issue rather than the fault of the officials operating the system (in this specific scenario).

Until they rewrite the rules governing the operation to allow some benefit of doubt/margin for error to favour the attacker, we’ll continue to get these cruel decisions.

Interestingly Lyle Foster was deemed offside by roughly the same body part Sander Berge was penalised for touching the ball with this time two years ago, which saw another Foster goal chalked off.

[Row Z]

I completely agree with this, but that’s a policy issue rather than the fault of the officials operating the system (in this specific scenario).

Until they rewrite the rules governing the operation to allow some benefit of doubt/margin for error to favour the attacker, we’ll continue to get these cruel decisions.

Interestingly Lyle Foster was deemed offside by roughly the same body part Sander Berge was penalised for touching the ball with this time two years ago, which saw another Foster goal chalked off.

I’m not sure it is a policy issue… certainly this year there was a suggestion that the “bar” for VAR intervention had been raised and that it would be “clear and obvious errors” only where VAR would intervene. This is then not applied on a weekly basis by incompetent officials who can’t help themselves getting involved.

If there is a missed decision that 10 out of 10 people would say is an error, that’s what VAR is for… not for such debatable decisions, that should be the refs decision in the moment.

On the offside yesterday there is a different graphic now realised which clarifies this a little.

[atlantalad]

“ How does pulling someone’s shirt from behind make them fall forward. “

Simple physics. Force is rate of change in momentum. A shirt tug changes Amads’ forward momentum slowing him down. The sudden release of the shirt causes him to accelerate forward as he is now free of the opposing pulling force thus accelerating without control of his own muscle power.

Consider two guys in a tug of war competition with rope around their waists but facing away from each other. They try to pull each other over an imaginary line to win the competition- but the rope snaps - would they fall forwards or backwards?

[Spijed]

I'm not sure about the big club mentality.

Remember, in the cup final Crystal Palace got away with one of the most deliberate and blatant handballs you'll ever see in football.