Plans to change the Play-offs

[Vegas Claret]

Full article here
https://archive.ph/gNStJ#selection-277.0-297.266

Snippet
"The English Football League (EFL) is considering a plan to add an eliminator round to the Championship play-offs, a move that would extend the number of teams in the play-offs to six.
The proposal, which has received wide initial support from Championship clubs, is for a similar format to the one used by the National League, with the team that finishes fifth playing the eighth-place team and sixth meeting seventh in singles ties at the better-placed team’s home ground.
But unlike the National League’s play-offs, which are all one-off matches, the winners of these eliminators would then proceed to two-legged ties against the teams that finished third and fourth, with the winners meeting at Wembley for a place in the Premier League."

[Boss Hogg]

Not sure it’s needed. Still doesn’t seem right that Sunderland went up instead of Sheff Utd.

[ClaretTony]

They tried this once before and the Premier League immediately blocked it. I can’t think what’s changed that would force them into a rethink.

To have a team finishing sixth in the Championship going up just doesn’t sit right with me at all. I think the National League play offs are a nonsense.

[Burnley1989]

8th place potentially going up is mental, theyd get slaughtered in the premier league and it would harm the brand

[welsbyswife]

It does seem wrong that 6th place can get promoted but I think most people would agree that the play-offs have been a good thing. The benefits of keeping the season alive for so many more team outweigh the problem that someone who finished significantly below the 3rd placed team might go up. In my view anyway. But stretching it to 8th seems a bit too far. Can't see what's wrong with how it is at the moment.

[Falcon]

If it weren't for the play-offs Burnley would not have got promoted to the Premier League at Wembley thanks to a Wade Elliott stunner.

Long live the play-offs I say!

[Rick_Muller]

I have a better idea - why not allow each team to play each other twice in a season, once at home and once away from home, and give points for the results, lets say 3 for a win and 1 each for a draw. Tot up the points into a format, lets call it a league table, whereby we can see which teams are better and then perhaps choose the ones with the most points in first, second and perhaps third in the league table would be promoted.

Or we can just manipulate things and make more games to manufacture fake excitement to raise more money for the coffers...

[ŽižkovClaret]

Not sure it’s needed. Still doesn’t seem right that Sunderland went up instead of Sheff Utd.

Funny though

[Plissken]

First up, the playoffs have been in place for nearly forty years so.. y'know... might be time to get over it.

Second this is clearly a response to the virtual lock-in which has seen largely the same clubs promoted, relegated, then promoted again because their competitive advantages are baked in. Anything that attempts to even up the balance within the Championship is a Good Thing, even if that potentially threatens Burnley from a financial perspective.

Thirdly, the playoff semis and finals are quite often the most dramatic and interesting games of the season, especially for neutral spectators. Adding an eliminator round doesn't harm that.

Finally, I would put money on the Venn Diagram of people who say "it is ridiculous that a team in 6th/7th/8th can get lucky and win the playoffs" and those who say "there is no romance in the FA Cup because it is impossible for teams to go on giant-killing runs any more" practically being a circle.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Anyone remember the play offs late 80s when Chelsea and Boro played in the final despite being in 2 different divisions that season.

Absolute carnage after the 2nd leg at Stamford Bridge

[dvalley69]

Imagine if we adopted the German model: 3rd bottom in Bundesliga plays 3rd top in 2. There'd never be a playoff promotion team again!

[beddie]

Not sure it’s needed. Still doesn’t seem right that Sunderland went up instead of Sheff Utd.

I don’t accept that. Sheff Utd were the makers of their own downfall. Didn’t we go up one year by finishing 6th but the team finishing in 3rd had a good number of points more than us. I think the current system works fine and should be left alone.

[ollieclarets8]

As Rick says, the whole existence of playoffs is a bit strange. A team finishing 6th, 20 points behind the team finishing 3rd, over a lottery of a match, shouldn't be going up.

[Goody1975]

The have just about got the perfect situation in place now, they will tinker with it and eventually ruin the concept.

[kentonclaret]

Not sure it’s needed. Still doesn’t seem right that Sunderland went up instead of Sheff Utd.

Or, that Oldham got promoted to the EFL despite finishing 23 points adrift of York City over the course of the regular season.

[martin_p]

The play-offs are fine as they are and they’ve made the leagues more interesting for longer into the season. But increasing the play-offs to take in 8th is madness and probably wouldn’t end well for any 8th placed team that went up.

[ClaretTony]

Imagine if we adopted the German model: 3rd bottom in Bundesliga plays 3rd top in 2. There'd never be a playoff promotion team again!

Far better system

[manuelbenny]

Why have two legs and then just one leg for the final like we have now???
I think one-off eliminators and semi-finals are a good idea, personally, and makes it more fair. Reward the team who finished higher in the table with home advantage in one-off games.

Play-offs are great and keep the season alive right to the end

[martin_p]

I have a better idea - why not allow each team to play each other twice in a season, once at home and once away from home, and give points for the results, lets say 3 for a win and 1 each for a draw. Tot up the points into a format, lets call it a league table, whereby we can see which teams are better and then perhaps choose the ones with the most points in first, second and perhaps third in the league table would be promoted.

Or we can just manipulate things and make more games to manufacture fake excitement to raise more money for the coffers...

But it’s not fake excitement is it. The play-offs as they exist are the best thing to happen to football since the league system was invented. Football is supposed to be entertainment after all, so surely having a dozen teams with nothing to play for for the last couple of months of the season isn’t what anyone wants?

[Dyched]

Imagine if we adopted the German model: 3rd bottom in Bundesliga plays 3rd top in 2. There'd never be a playoff promotion team again!

Nonsense model. How a team can avoid relegation by beating a team that doesn’t even play in the league is daft.

[burnmark]

I did like the proposed method some years ago. I think it went like this:

1: 5th v 6th

2: 4th v winner of 1

Final: 3rd v winner of 2

I may well be wrong on the above but I thought it seemed fair.

[ClaretTony]

Nonsense model. How a team can avoid relegation by beating a team that doesn’t even play in the league is daft.

It did replace nothing to give an extra option.

We included that in the play offs initially.

[Dyched]

Works perfect now. Teams mid table have a chance of promotion until the last few games. Teams in 3rd/4th normally are within chance of automatic and well clear of 7th so have 2 chances of promotion.

[Wokingclaret]

First up, the playoffs have been in place for nearly forty years so.. y'know... might be time to get over it.

Second this is clearly a response to the virtual lock-in which has seen largely the same clubs promoted, relegated, then promoted again because their competitive advantages are baked in. Anything that attempts to even up the balance within the Championship is a Good Thing, even if that potentially threatens Burnley from a financial perspective.

Thirdly, the playoff semis and finals are quite often the most dramatic and interesting games of the season, especially for neutral spectators. Adding an eliminator round doesn't harm that.

Finally, I would put money on the Venn Diagram of people who say "it is ridiculous that a team in 6th/7th/8th can get lucky and win the playoffs" and those who say "there is no romance in the FA Cup because it is impossible for teams to go on giant-killing runs any more" practically being a circle.

It isn't a lock in though is it, count how many teams haven't been in the prem from the championship. Messed up their parachute payments perhaps

[Rick_Muller]

But it’s not fake excitement is it. The play-offs as they exist are the best thing to happen to football since the league system was invented. Football is supposed to be entertainment after all, so surely having a dozen teams with nothing to play for for the last couple of months of the season isn’t what anyone wants?

My post was a little tongue in cheek to be honest. I’ve enjoyed the playoffs since they came in, and the first post was a little sarcasm based on what the feeling was when they did come in. I don’t think they need messing with, and if they do, I would suggest something that actually benefits teams that do finish third, perhaps team who finish third automatically get to Wembley for the final and have a goal advantage based on how many points clear they were? Just “spitballing” here, no real thought about it…

[martin_p]

Finally, I would put money on the Venn Diagram of people who say "it is ridiculous that a team in 6th/7th/8th can get lucky and win the playoffs" and those who say "there is no romance in the FA Cup because it is impossible for teams to go on giant-killing runs any more" practically being a circle.

But there’s a massive difference between a pure cup competition where everyone starts equal and a two game cup competition after a 46 game season where everyone starts equal despite the fact that invariably one of the teams has done significantly better in qualifying. I’m a big supporter of the playoffs by the way, I just think it’s fine as it is and doesn’t need more teams adding.

[dvalley69]

Far better system

Why is that, may I ask? The 2nd-tiered club very rarely wins, meaning only the 2 automatic go up. Personally, I prefer more teams getting a crack in the top league.

[KlyBfc]

I did like the proposed method some years ago. I think it went like this:

1: 5th v 6th

2: 4th v winner of 1

Final: 3rd v winner of 2

I may well be wrong on the above but I thought it seemed fair.

This can sometimes catch the team that only plays once out as they aren’t as match ready as the other teams. I know they have had a longer rest so should be ok but it can have the adverse effect that they aren’t as in tune. I might be wrong but i feel like it caught a few sides out in Rugby League and other sports at times.

[burnmark]

This can sometimes catch the team that only plays once out as they aren’t as match ready as the other teams. I know they have had a longer rest so should be ok but it can have the adverse effect that they aren’t as in tune. I might be wrong but i feel like it caught a few sides out in Rugby League and other sports at times.

Fair points.

[Tricky Trevor]

I’ve long said the points earned in the season should somehow be taken into consideration in the playoffs. The league should be the over-riding factor in promotion and relegation. Not for me to decide but possibly a goal for every 5 full points advantage in the league table?
That would stop teams resting players once they are guaranteed a play-off place and skewing the relegation places.

[ClaretTony]

Why is that, may I ask? The 2nd-tiered club very rarely wins, meaning only the 2 automatic go up. Personally, I prefer more teams getting a crack in the top league.

Because at least it’s 3rd place who gets the chance

[Fretters]

I've always thought the team in third should go straight to the final, with there being one semi-final contested between 4th and 5th.

[kentonclaret]

Full article here
https://archive.ph/gNStJ#selection-277.0-297.266

Snippet
"The English Football League (EFL) is considering a plan to add an eliminator round to the Championship play-offs, a move that would extend the number of teams in the play-offs to six.
The proposal, which has received wide initial support from Championship clubs, is for a similar format to the one used by the National League, with the team that finishes fifth playing the eighth-place team and sixth meeting seventh in singles ties at the better-placed team’s home ground.
But unlike the National League’s play-offs, which are all one-off matches, the winners of these eliminators would then proceed to two-legged ties against the teams that finished third and fourth, with the winners meeting at Wembley for a place in the Premier League."

Should such an idea as prescribed be implemented the 3 clubs over the last 10 years that would have benefitted the most are Blackburn, Middlesbrough and Millwall (3 times for both clubs).

[boatshed bill]

Stupid idea.

[Nonayforever]

A straight 4 up 4 down with no play offs would be my choice.

[dougcollins]

Nonsense model. How a team can avoid relegation by beating a team that doesn’t even play in the league is daft.

I'm pretty sure we tried this, didn't Charlton play Leeds when they were in different divisions?

Just checked, it was 1987. Charlton were 4th bottom in the top division (which was then the first), Leeds 4th in the 2nd division.

[dougcollins]

As an afterthought, if a similar playoff system had been in place between the 4th and the Conference, we may have had a whole new set of problems that year.

[Burnley1989]

But there’s a massive difference between a pure cup competition where everyone starts equal and a two game cup competition after a 46 game season where everyone starts equal despite the fact that invariably one of the teams has done significantly better in qualifying. I’m a big supporter of the playoffs by the way, I just think it’s fine as it is and doesn’t need more teams adding.

I literally typed the same response earlier but decided not to post

The current play off works, why do they always seemed to want to mess with things....

[Vegas Claret]

6 automatically promoted and 6 relegated from every single division - spreads the money and increases the jeopardy

[dvalley69]

6 automatically promoted and 6 relegated from every single division - spreads the money and increases the jeopardy

Do you not think that might just put more clubs on the brink? Increasing the number of places dangles the carrot even more, resulting in clubs pushing the boat out in search of the promised land. For those that do make it, they'll need to invest tons more and more than likely come down anyway if there are 6 relegation spots (especially in the Prem).

[Vegas Claret]

Do you not think that might just put more clubs on the brink? Increasing the number of places dangles the carrot even more, resulting in clubs pushing the boat out in search of the promised land. For those that do make it, they'll need to invest tons more and more than likely come down anyway if there are 6 relegation spots (especially in the Prem).

they are already doing that, have a look at what some of the Championship teams spent this summer......

[claretspice]

But there’s a massive difference between a pure cup competition where everyone starts equal and a two game cup competition after a 46 game season where everyone starts equal despite the fact that invariably one of the teams has done significantly better in qualifying. I’m a big supporter of the playoffs by the way, I just think it’s fine as it is and doesn’t need more teams adding.

There's a perfectly decent argument though that the National League system doesn't end up with everyone starting equal after the 46 game season. The team that finishes 2nd (i.e. in the top play off spot in the national league) has a significantly easier route to the final than those finishing at the bottom of the play-off qualification places. It's exactly the same in Rugby League in terms of qualification for the Super League Grand Final.

I can see the argument either way. The current system works fine, but it largely equalise the playing field between 3rd and 6th - apart from nominally playing the weakest team, there's no further advantage. But (for example) a system that required 6th to play 7th, with the winners playing whoever finished 3rd away from home, whilst those finishing 4th and 5th played off - expands the play offs whilst actually creating a greater advantage to the team in 3rd.

[martin_p]

There's a perfectly decent argument though that the National League system doesn't end up with everyone starting equal after the 46 game season. The team that finishes 2nd (i.e. in the top play off spot in the national league) has a significantly easier route to the final than those finishing at the bottom of the play-off qualification places. It's exactly the same in Rugby League in terms of qualification for the Super League Grand Final.

I can see the argument either way. The current system works fine, but it largely equalise the playing field between 3rd and 6th - apart from nominally playing the weakest team, there's no further advantage. But (for example) a system that required 6th to play 7th, with the winners playing whoever finished 3rd away from home, whilst those finishing 4th and 5th played off - expands the play offs whilst actually creating a greater advantage to the team in 3rd.

I think there are ways to make league position count without needing to extend to six teams though. I wouldn’t be against the play-off semi-finals both being a single game with the team that finished higher at home. You could even give the home team a further advantage by saying that if scores were level after full time and extra time then the home team wins.

[warksclaret]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. The current play-offs are a fantastic way to maintain interest in the league right to the last game. Increasing the numbers in the play offs will allow even more weaker sides to potentially get into the PL where the gap is already huge. Imagine Millwall being in the PL this year when Sheff Utd failed

I like the idea of the clubs finishing 3rd and 4th both playing at home in a one off game v 6th and 5th respectively. THere are bigger issues for the authorities to tackle rather than messing up the current play off structure

[dvalley69]

they are already doing that, have a look at what some of the Championship teams spent this summer......

But as of yet none have gone bust. Under your suggestion you are basically doubling the chances of getting promotion - from 3 to 6 - which would in turn certainly increase the competition, and most likely the expenditure. But the scramble then becomes even more desperate than it is now and my fear would be that clubs go gung ho too much, and with certain owners (like Sheff Weds') around nowadays that could be a real recipe for disaster.

Let me be clear, I'm not putting down your idea. I like the idea of giving more teams promotion. But worry about the flip side of it.

[dvalley69]

I think there are ways to make league position count without needing to extend to six teams though. I wouldn’t be against the play-off semi-finals both being a single game with the team that finished higher at home. You could even give the home team a further advantage by saying that if scores were level after full time and extra time then the home team wins.

This is what happens in Italy's Serie B, where 8th plays 5th & 7th faces 6th in one-off games. Higher placed team is always at home. If the away side doesn't win then a draw is enough for the home team to go to the semis. The winners then play 4th & 3rd with the same conditions (lowest placed faces 3rd) but both the semis & final are 2-legged. If the final score after ET is a draw then the higher-placed team wins. Not sure if that's the case in the final. Maybe there are penalties, not sure.

[boatshed bill]

Under this system Millwall (8th) would have made the play-offs 34 points off automatic promotion 17 points off a relegation spot. Bonkers isn't it?

[ChorltonCharlie]

It isn't a lock in though is it, count how many teams haven't been in the prem from the championship. Messed up their parachute payments perhaps

This is a simple argument to make, but the gap is widening all the time between the PL and EFL. Parachute teams have been caught in the middle. Most clubs have realised what to do on promotion, and you see relegated clubs now bring in huge sums for transfers as they flog off half decent players for big money. This gives them spending power that blows rivals out of the water. Clubs can still make a mess of it, but it's getting harder and harder to do so.

I can see the absurdity of expanding the play offs, but I think we're a long way past the point of saying what's fair and what isn't. I can definitely see the value in making promotion be a little bit more of a lottery and try and get away from a small set of clubs bouncing between the divisions. Problem is it's fixing a symptom of the much bigger issue rather than fixing the major route cause.

[martin_p]

This is a simple argument to make, but the gap is widening all the time between the PL and EFL. Parachute teams have been caught in the middle. Most clubs have realised what to do on promotion, and you see relegated clubs now bring in huge sums for transfers as they flog off half decent players for big money. This gives them spending power that blows rivals out of the water. Clubs can still make a mess of it, but it's getting harder and harder to do so.

I know it’s early in the season but so far only Leicester look like they might bounce straight back. I don’t think it’s ever as easy as people make out to recover from relegation from the prem and go straight back up, it’s an incredible achievement that we’ve managed to do it three times in a row.

[Papabendi]

First up, the playoffs have been in place for nearly forty years so.. y'know... might be time to get over it.

Second this is clearly a response to the virtual lock-in which has seen largely the same clubs promoted, relegated, then promoted again because their competitive advantages are baked in. Anything that attempts to even up the balance within the Championship is a Good Thing, even if that potentially threatens Burnley from a financial perspective.

Thirdly, the playoff semis and finals are quite often the most dramatic and interesting games of the season, especially for neutral spectators. Adding an eliminator round doesn't harm that.

Finally, I would put money on the Venn Diagram of people who say "it is ridiculous that a team in 6th/7th/8th can get lucky and win the playoffs" and those who say "there is no romance in the FA Cup because it is impossible for teams to go on giant-killing runs any more" practically being a circle.

There is a fundamental reason why this is a bad idea - if a club is finishing that low down in the table they will almost uncertainly be ill-equipped for the Prem from a squad perspective and worse - potentially not ready for it from an infrastructure basis. Don't see how this solves anything really.