Sonne & Broja

[jlup1980]

Sonne has looked ok at times and did well enough in preseason to force a start vs Spurs. I'm not overly concerned by him, or many of the others last night. We saw last season that Pires needs a run on games - he never looked comfortable playing every other game with Bashir. Zian will be ok once he gets some minutes under his belt, same with Bashir. For me, the really concerning ones are Worrall, Tuanzebe, Edwards, and Broja. If we need to rely on them in the PL we are in trouble.

Tuanzebe was a cheap gamble. I said we'd be lucky to get 20 games a season out of him, and that's ringing true. He might not be a bad player, but he's no use if he's only available 1 in 3 games. Broja is another level. I can't understand why we signed him. It's nearly October and we're still hearing the same comments we were hearing when he signed in early August - "he needs time". He's absolutely the wrong signing for us. We needed a striker who could come in and challenge Foster from day one. What we've ended up with is a lad who looks miles off the pace two months after signing. I can only think he came as part of the Big Les deal... a bit of a "we'll give you Big Les if you take this lump off us too" scenario!

[ChorltonCharlie]

Players who looked awful in the 3-0 defeat at Preston last year... Brownhill, Esteve, Foster, Flemming, Edwards.

Maybe it is changing 10-11 players and putting them in an unusual shape with passive tactics that is the problem. Under Dyche and now Parker it's a issue that we see the cup as a glorified reserve game and a chance to give all players a few minutes. It's a false economy when you get knocked out by a team you should be capable of beating. We now have a big 29 man squad where a lot of players know they're not getting any minutes until after Christmas unless there's an injury crisis.

[Jakubclaret]

That’s quite apparent.

Explain it then.

[beddie]

I thought we’d have tried to acquire Broja on loan rather than buy, or perhaps we did, sounds like he’s a long way off the standard required.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Broja looked like someone who had no pre season and is working his way back to fitness.

Granted it is pi**ing in the wind with some but hopefully there are more sensible people who aren't writing him off after 1 game.

[Jakubclaret]

Broja looked like someone who had no pre season and is working his way back to fitness.

Granted it is pi**ing in the wind with some but hopefully there are more sensible people who aren't writing him off after 1 game.

Some people are looking at the overall picture it's impossible to not take into consideration what he's done previously elsewhere as it's a good indicator what could possibly lay ahead.

[bobinho]

When you say whipping boy do you mean calling it how it is ?

No. I mean whipping boy as in he’s only featured for literally minutes, and he’s being hammered and written off on here already.

Historically, we have always had this type of player, but it says more about the fan base than the player. Hendrick was one, players who just can’t do anything right in the eyes of those who either can’t or won’t see.

My hope os that Broja gets his match fitness up to scratch and gets a run in the side BEFORE he’s judged, but I fear that won’t happen.

[Pickles]

Not worried about either. Broja will come good, I hope. In the meantime Foster and Flemming look sharper. Sonne is neither here nor there, our season isn't going to hinge on him.

I thoughts Edwards was the worst player on the pitch. Looked lazy and uninterested.

[bobinho]

Some people are looking at the overall picture it's impossible to not take into consideration what he's done previously elsewhere as it's a good indicator what could possibly lay ahead.

A bit like Akinbiyi? Even Blake to a certain extent. How about Arfield?

They may well be looking at an overall picture, but it’s early days. Far too early to be writing him off. Football is riddled with players who struggled at some places and excelled at others.

[Juan Tanamera]

Outside

Yes, I imagine it would be.

[Jakubclaret]

A bit like Akinbiyi? Even Blake to a certain extent. How about Arfield?

They may well be looking at an overall picture, but it’s early days. Far too early to be writing him off. Football is riddled with players who struggled at some places and excelled at others.

Of course you do get success stories but all in all forewarned is forearmed it doesn't look good. It's not embryonically writing anybody off acknowledging facts it's stone cold sobering reality. I certainly haven't wrote him off but I do find it strange how it seemingly takes an age to get people to this supposedly mythical match stage of fitness. You have shelled out somewhere in the region of £15m a couple of months down the road & you are still aren't there. Makes me wonder what the hell is going on.

[warksclaret]

Not worried about either. Broja will come good, I hope. In the meantime Foster and Flemming look sharper. Sonne is neither here nor there, our season isn't going to hinge on him.

I thoughts Edwards was the worst player on the pitch. Looked lazy and uninterested.

I thought that too, but he set up the goal for Flemming, he created the pass of the night and Broje should have scored from it, and he nearly scored a very good goal. Lazy, never tackles or tracks but had more quality than anyone other than Hannibal and possibly Tresor who should have come on sooner

[Pickles]

I thought that too, but he set up the goal for Flemming, he created the pass of the night and Broje should have scored from it, and he nearly scored a very good goal. Lazy, never tackles or tracks but had more quality than anyone other than Hannibal and possibly Tresor who should have come on sooner

You're not wrong but I think it's the things he didn't/can't/won't do which will keep him out of the first eleven for league games.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Trying to find a positive in a self inflicted thoroughly depressing evening, there were two occasions when Broja found some pace and accelerated past a defender and got a shot in. That pace cannot have come from nowhere.

[Casper2]

No. I mean whipping boy as in he’s only featured for literally minutes, and he’s being hammered and written off on here already.

Historically, we have always had this type of player, but it says more about the fan base than the player. Hendrick was one, players who just can’t do anything right in the eyes of those who either can’t or won’t see.

My hope os that Broja gets his match fitness up to scratch and gets a run in the side BEFORE he’s judged, but I fear that won’t happen.

Do you know how many games he’s played goals he’s scored in the past two seasons?

[Bordeauxclaret]

We’ve had a pretty successful 10-15 years as a club and seen some very good players in that time. Few, if any, have been immune from putting in honking performances in cup competitions.
Broja just joins a long list.

I’m confident it won’t define his time here.

[THEWELLERNUT70]

Broja looked like someone who had no pre season and is working his way back to fitness.

Granted it is pi**ing in the wind with some but hopefully there are more sensible people who aren't writing him off after 1 game.

Thing is gaining fitness doesn't really affect your ability to accelerate or sprint over 5 to 10 yards in the opening half of a game to close the opposition down . If he'd done that and was blowing out of his backside later on it'd be acceptable. It was a lack of application and desire last night!

[warksclaret]

Last night for me showed the difference between Foster and Broje. Foster has burst a gut in each of his 5 league games this season. Thats what we want to see as fans. If I was Parker, Broje would feature in the next two U21 games. Flemming is more than capable of deputising should Foster need to be subbed or get injured in a game

[billyhamilton82]

Last night for me showed the difference between Foster and Broje. Foster has burst a gut in each of his 5 league games this season. Thats what we want to see as fans. If I was Parker, Broje would feature in the next two U21 games. Flemming is more than capable of deputising should Foster need to be subbed or get injured in a game

I must have watched a different game.

Broja was constantly tracking back and helping out in midfield and defence, (to the point where I was concerned he wasn't in the position he should have been and why the ball wasn't sticking up top and kept coming back), maybe that's why he looked like he had gone missing?

I think he was trying too hard to impress, he was everywhere and nowhere, and as such didn't impress on the game.

IMO his workrate can't be questioned, a stricter positional sense would be my only suggestion.

That being said he obviously still lacks sharpness and that will come with a run of games and the U21s would be a good idea.

He's got obvious qualities, and at 23, a bit of patience will go a long way for our benefit.

[ChorltonCharlie]

Wish people would realise that how much you press isn't down to the individual, it's down to team tactics. We didn't appear to press hardly at all last night, where Cardiff had been told to press aggressively, certainly early in the game. Our instructions were clearly to get into a defensive shape without the ball. It makes sense in the bigger picture if Parker's more concerned with the team being clear on how we should play in the Premier League. Broja running around like a headless chicken might have pleased the jumpers for goalposts fans, but that's all it would have done.

Its disappointing as fans that we weren't more flexible last night with the approach, but from Parker's point of view it's much more important that some of those players are ready to step in to the first team having experienced the way we'll set up in the Premier League.

[CrosspoolClarets]

That is right what Charlie is saying about a lack of a press, but it meant that Edwards and Broja were constantly tracking back and neither are very good at it and subsequently looked poor. I had thought playing a wingback in a five would avoid the right and left forward having to cover back, but seemingly I was wrong.

It feels relentlessly negative, and I doubt it will be long before the fans begin to turn, and we were at that point at the end of January before the Edwards signing (and maybe a tactical tweak) transformed our fortunes. It’s who Parker is. It is his achilles heel. Like watching Southgate’s England.

The glimmer of hope is we looked good at brief times against PL teams this season, but we were still sat back too much and bar Sunderland and a 10 minute spell either side of half time vs Forest, never looked likely to win.

[RVclaret]

That is right what Charlie is saying about a lack of a press, but it meant that Edwards and Broja were constantly tracking back and neither are very good at it and subsequently looked poor. I had thought playing a wingback in a five would avoid the right and left forward having to cover back, but seemingly I was wrong.

It feels relentlessly negative, and I doubt it will be long before the fans begin to turn, and we were at that point at the end of January before the Edwards signing (and maybe a tactical tweak) transformed our fortunes. It’s who Parker is. It is his achilles heel. Like watching Southgate’s England.

The glimmer of hope is we looked good at brief times against PL teams this season, but we were still sat back too much and bar Sunderland and a 10 minute spell either side of half time vs Forest, never looked likely to win.

And there we have it… the return of Southgate’s England, it’s been a while!

That same Achilles heel you moaned about all last season when we went 33 games unbeaten and claimed 100 points.

The same one that leads you to moan Edwards isn’t starting every Premier League game (3 duels won out of 12 last night against League One opposition).

As for ‘fans turning’ soon - deary me.

[Silkyskills1]

A bit like Akinbiyi? Even Blake to a certain extent. How about Arfield?

They may well be looking at an overall picture, but it’s early days. Far too early to be writing him off. Football is riddled with players who struggled at some places and excelled at others.

Has he excelled somewhere?

[bobinho]

Not yet I don’t think… but I didn’t say he had. Is his career over? So there’s still time yeah?

[ecc]

Is "Broje" the plural of "Broja"?

[blatherwickstattoos]

Yes, I imagine it would be.

Cool story

[Silkyskills1]

Not yet I don’t think… but I didn’t say he had.

8 goals in four seasons, I believe. I could see why.

[ŽižkovClaret]

Let's face it, if Broja was the finished article, he wouldn't be at Turf Moor. He's a fixer upper. That's the market we are in

[burnley007]

Let's face it, if Broja was the finished article, he wouldn't be at Turf Moor. He's a fixer upper. That's the market we are in

I think we all knew that, we just didn't realise it was such a wholescale rebuild!

[Deathtrip]

When Broja comes good which he will this thread and all his detractors are going to look pretty stupid.

Again.

[CJ_Claret]

On the occasions we have seen Sonne he has been completely helpless, its clear he isn't up to the standard and not sure what he offers, not much of a threat going forwards (as expected from a modern fullback) and is woeful defensively, loses his man far too easily as shown last night for the goal last night.

I think Broja needs more time before casting judgement, injury record aside, he has proven (for Saints) that he can play at this level and does have goals in him if (and this is the crucial part) he is utilised correctly. Some players fit in certain formations and playing styles differently and may take time to bed into other ways of playing.

Any player to come through the ranks at Chelsea and to have remained their until now can not be an egg so either it is fitness or its taking a while to get up to speed with the differences that playing in Scott Parker's Burnley brings compared to being brought up playing a more attack minded style at Chelsea.

[ŽižkovClaret]

I think we all knew that, we just didn't realise it was such a wholescale rebuild!

Bit of T-Cut he'll be reyt

[KRBFC]

You can add Worrall to that list too, £6m? He’s not even worth half of that.

[KRBFC]

As for Broja, I think at least you can see some kind of talent there and the lack of sharpness/form/confidence/fitness is expected.

Some of the others though…. Sonne and Worrall were so poor, Tuanzebe was all over the place defensively and couldn’t stay on his feet. Hannibal runs around a lot and flashes but zero consistency in anything he does.

[KRBFC]

Then you get onto the system, 5 defenders against League One dross at home. The team sat deep, parking the bus, pressing 1 at a time. Passing sideways and backwards. There’s absolutely no reason for Edwards, Broja and Flemming to ALL be behind the ball in their own half.

No idea why we need Edwards to be a workhorse up and down when we’ve got 5 defenders on the pitch and 2 defensive midfielders. Surely you allow Edwards freedom to stay high and wide for an out ball on the break.

[Casper2]

Broja looked like someone who had no pre season and is working his way back to fitness.

Granted it is pi**ing in the wind with some but hopefully there are more sensible people who aren't writing him off after 1 game.

Or 1 goal in 2 seasons

[CoolClaret]

Then you get onto the system, 5 defenders against League One dross at home. The team sat deep, parking the bus, pressing 1 at a time. Passing sideways and backwards. There’s absolutely no reason for Edwards, Broja and Flemming to ALL be behind the ball in their own half.

No idea why we need Edwards to be a workhorse up and down when we’ve got 5 defenders on the pitch and 2 defensive midfielders. Surely you allow Edwards freedom to stay high and wide for an out ball on the break.

3 at the back can be very attacking - didn't make Brazil look defensive back in 2002, did it?

For games like this when there's a gulf in quality, it's rarely to do with the tactics - people tried saying the same thing about United at Grimsby...

What really happened is they were up for it and we weren't, and paid the price.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Or 1 goal in 2 seasons

As I said hopefully there are more sensible people, I realise some won't be.

[KRBFC]

3 at the back can be very attacking - didn't make Brazil look defensive back in 2002, did it?

For games like this when there's a gulf in quality, it's rarely to do with the tactics - people tried saying the same thing about United at Grimsby...

What really happened is they were up for it and we weren't, and paid the price.

Well it wasn’t a 3 at the back, was it? It was a 5, we were sat deep, I can’t recall a single cross from either of the “wing backs”.

[CoolClaret]

Well it wasn’t a 3 at the back, was it? It was a 5, we were sat deep, I can’t recall a single cross from either of the “wing backs”.

Well that's what happens with 3 at the back when you don't have the ball, unless you want the wingbacks not to track back at all and just stand high and wide all game?

We were deep because our press was crap (only really Flemming pressing from the front, and it was well out of sync with the rest), meaning that Cardiff could easily play through us.

[Commy]

Out of all those games he has played he has started 27 times. The rest he has been sub. He played 30 times for Vitesse but only started 2 games. He might have been brought on with 5 minutes to go in a lot of those games, so is it worth taking any notice of what Wiki says with matches played and goals scored.

[munkyennui]

It feels relentlessly negative, and I doubt it will be long before the fans begin to turn, and we were at that point at the end of January before the Edwards signing (and maybe a tactical tweak) transformed our fortunes. It’s who Parker is. It is his achilles heel. Like watching Southgate’s England.

"Turn" is a tad strong. I think Parker gets loads right: clearly a good fella with decent values that match many fans', can organise a defence, dealt with a negative situation in summer 24 transfer window and he generally gets the players to improve/over perform. Last January allowed him to a resolve the transfer window shortcomings and he does tweak his tactics from game to game. I think it has been generally a positive start to the season. Personally, there is no way I'd be calling for Parker's job this season - I didn't do it for Vinny and that was properly rancid. I don't think those in the JHU around me would differ.

Yesterday, felt very similar in terms of performance to the PNE FA Cup fixture. It was lacklustre and low energy. Ball retention poor due to low passing accuracy. The press wasn't organised at all. The units were too far apart. It was bad.

Broja/Tuanzbe looked like they need games. Tresor looked worthy of the bench. Edwards for me is the major worry.

[Silkyskills1]

As I said hopefully there are more sensible people, I realise some won't be.

1 goal in two seasons doesn't look or sound too great, though no matter which way you want to dress it up.

[claretonthecoast1882]

1 goal in two seasons doesn't look or sound too great, though no matter which way you want to dress it up.

It is a dumb stat.

His total time on the pitch in those 2 seasons is around 400 minutes so around 4.5 full games. That isn't dressing it up that is just not having an agenda.

He got a run of games playing for Southampton and scored 6. Granted it is only 6 but he was 20 year old. He has missed pre season and isn't fully fit. Just be nice if some of the usuals could show a tiny bit of patience.

[Darnhill Claret]

From the whole team last night there was no urgency at all in the first half.
They had a clear plan to overload down their left, our right. We didn't respond to that strategy.
In the second half Hannibal pulled his finger out. If others did, they weren't very effective doing it, so that when Tresor came on near the end he quite easily became our most dangerous player. Flemming scored a good goal but wandered around in the middle of the game with his own set of 'divers boots'.
Broja was a massive improvement on his Derby County performance, but still nowhere near. The rest were just disappointing.

[Jakubclaret]

It is a dumb stat.

His total time on the pitch in those 2 seasons is around 400 minutes so around 4.5 full games. That isn't dressing it up that is just not having an agenda.

He got a run of games playing for Southampton and scored 6. Granted it is only 6 but he was 20 year old. He has missed pre season and isn't fully fit. Just be nice if some of the usuals could show a tiny bit of patience.

The PL isn't the sort of arena that affords patience in any shape or form quite the opposite you are found out very quickly. If he can't breach cardiffs backline I'm not sure how that's going to work out with far superior defenders.

[dandeclaret]

Broja looked like someone who had no pre season and is working his way back to fitness.

Granted it is pi**ing in the wind with some but hopefully there are more sensible people who aren't writing him off after 1 game.

I thought there were a few flashes of what he was about. He probably had 3 shots on goal last night? He showed decent pace for the good chance he had. He showed decent feet a couple of times.

He doesn't work as hard at pressing as Lyle does, and he's not overly physical yet.... but let's be balanced - the lad showed flashes of quality, he needs to do more, but he's had very few minutes, looks relatively low on confidence, and probably hasn't settled in yet.

[Taffy on the wing]

Broja looked like someone who had no pre season and is working his way back to fitness.

Granted it is pi**ing in the wind with some but hopefully there are more sensible people who aren't writing him off after 1 game.

Worrall on the other hand......they had our pants down with him!

[Casper2]

It is a dumb stat.

His total time on the pitch in those 2 seasons is around 400 minutes so around 4.5 full games. That isn't dressing it up that is just not having an agenda.

He got a run of games playing for Southampton and scored 6. Granted it is only 6 but he was 20 year old. He has missed pre season and isn't fully fit. Just be nice if some of the usuals could show a tiny bit of patience.

So buying a player injured for two seasons that’s really sensible

[jrgbfc]

With his fitness record signing Broja was a massive gamble. Particularly on a 4 year contract and the reported money involved.