Tom Cleverly

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:08 pm

Tom has more than fulfilled his potential. I suppose not too many of us can say that.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:25 pm

dougcollins wrote:Tom has more than fulfilled his potential. I suppose not too many of us can say that.

I'll bet Tom hasn't been to Aintree and sang to Sue Barker about how much he loves her. like I have.

It wasn't a solo performance though, I had five backing singers.

BurnleyPaul · Post by **BurnleyPaul** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:33 am

Mail on Sunday reporting that we want Tom- but only on loan!

If this is right then I'd say that Bamford is definitely going back....

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:46 am

Bin Ont Turf wrote:I'll bet Tom hasn't been to Aintree and sang to Sue Barker about how much he loves her. like I have.

It wasn't a solo performance though, I had five backing singers.

must have sunk a few Bin, she has a face like a scrotum .

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:45 am

Never EVER rated him. Always looked like one of those pampered academy types who just enjoys the lifestyle. SAYING that, he did appear to come good last season under the hapless Martinez and looked quite impressive when I saw him. Doubt it is even an issue though as we will never meet his no doubt ridiculous wage demands.

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:50 am

Dyched wrote:Stoke didn't get players like Bojan, arnaltttoovvichh? shaqiri in their first season. It takes time.

Stoke did better with Ricardo fuller upfront and Rory delap aiming big throws at his head. Bet they were a lot cheaper wages wise too..

Sgt. Pepper · Post by **Sgt. Pepper** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:46 am

Dyched wrote:He's no world beater but he'd vastly improve our squad and chances of survival. Like someone else has mentioned we need to start strengthening with Premier League players. If we can stay in this league for a few years he'd move down the pecking order. Stoke didn't get players like Bojan, arnaltttoovvichh? shaqiri in their first season. It takes time.

As long term resident of the Potteries I am aware of the fans growing discontent (heightened by today's cup defeat). Ironic really, considering they drove Pullis out because of the disatisfaction with his utilitarian, results based approach.
Here's what many of them feel about players at who we would often cast an envious gaze.
http://oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thr ... me-wasters

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:43 am

Jambo wrote:50 games over 2/3 years is a bit-part role, Ferguson obviously didn't rate him that highly. It's easy enough to argue that United could have shifted him on earlier and likely wouldn't have missed him. I doubt anyone remembers him as a key part of any of their successes.

But you're missing the point anyway. He played a bit for United and wasn't good enough, so they got rid, and he's done nothing in the three seasons since then to suggest he's PL quality. Maybe he'll go somewhere else and prove he is, maybe Dyche could get more out of him than other managers have, but I haven't seen other PL teams linked with him.

He probably wouldn't be a disastrous signing, but I'd rather we go for players who are on the up. He's also known for being a touch pedestrian, which doesn't really suit our game.

In the first season he started 5 but then for 2 seasons he started half the games. That's not bit part playing. He also started 7 champions league games. Doesn't his drop off at Utd come at the same time that genius that is David Moyes started? Given he'd brought in Fellaini then no wonder a rotated player drops down the order.

As others have said it depends on the costs but anyone thinking he wouldn't be an upgrade on most of our midfield is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:58 am

Was it David Moyes fault when he became bobbins for England and couldn't complete 5 yard passes?

Yet another player in a long line of Manchester United players who looked good thanks to the team around them. File under Luke Chadwick.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:30 am

Chadwick made 25 appearances for United. Half what Cleverley made. So its another flawed comparison.

For all these sweeping statements, noone has yet given a single united player who has completely bombed after making 50 appearances at United, and mainly under Fergie.

Jambo · Post by **Jambo** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:43 am

As usual spice you seem to want to make it black and white. Nobody has argued Cleverley has bombed, afaik, nor that he's a terrible player - just that 50 games for United over a three-year spell does not necessarily qualify him to be a first-team player for us three years later. He was obviously not at that level despite being given more than enough chances, the question is what level he actually is. Hard to say from the last three seasons, when he has had very little impact at a couple of different clubs, whether he is PL quality.

If he offered something really different to what we already have, I'd be all for it. But I don't think he does. We also need to be looking out for a potential Marney successor at some point, but he's not that guy either.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:03 pm

I certainly don't think he was ever good enough to be in the England side. I was also surprised Fergie stuck with him for so long as he didn't pull up any trees there. Just because somebody plays for England and plays X games under Ferguson it does not make him a quality player. Fergie made some awful transfers and selections in his time at United so his decision making still had flaws.

However, even taking that into account, from what I've seen of him overall since he left, I think he would be an upgrade for us. And ultimately, that's what it's all about. We could be signing somebody who can't get into Barcelona's side and is 3rd choice in each of his best position(s), but he'd more than likely be our best player if he came here.

If we go for him on loan, I think it depends on whether that prevents us loaning a quality winger. If it does, I'd prefer the winger. If it doesn't, and we buy the sort of wide player we all know we're missing, then it's a thumbs up from me.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:18 pm

Jambo wrote:As usual spice you seem to want to make it black and white. Nobody has argued Cleverley has bombed, afaik, nor that he's a terrible player

With all respect, the opposite is true. Plenty have said exactly that on this thread, and suggested that he's not premier league quality.

Clearly, he wasn't good enough to sustain a career at United, and perhaps not good enough to become an England regular. But there are a whole range of shades of grey between that, and him not being premier league standard or being as good as a team primarily compromised of Championship journeymen. Noone disputes he's had a quiet couple of years and has lost his way a bit. But to write him off as beung sub-standard for the Premier League? Thats being really black and white if you ask me.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:36 pm

Saxoman wrote:Stoke did better with Ricardo fuller upfront and Rory delap aiming big throws at his head. Bet they were a lot cheaper wages wise too..

Not really though. They've had two 9 place finishes the last two seasons. Their highest.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:38 pm

Sgt. Pepper wrote:As long term resident of the Potteries I am aware of the fans growing discontent (heightened by today's cup defeat). Ironic really, considering they drove Pullis out because of the disatisfaction with his utilitarian, results based approach.
Here's what many of them feel about players at who we would often cast an envious gaze.
http://oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thr ... me-wasters

Exact same would happen here. A few years of survival, comfortable top 10 finishes and the fans get fed up.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:26 am

Never mind Cleverly

Bin Ont Turf wrote:I'll bet Tom hasn't been to Aintree and sang to Sue Barker about how much he loves her. like I have.

It wasn't a solo performance though, I had five backing singers.

Video or it didn't happen BOT

BigChaCha · Post by **BigChaCha** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:15 am

Exact same would happen here. A few years of survival, comfortable top 10 finishes and the fans get fed up.

To be honest I will be one of them. I can live with functional football if we are progressing but not if it's the status quo.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:37 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:Never mind Cleverly

Video or it didn't happen BOT

Sorry no video of it. She was in front of a BBC camera though and was about to go live, but we thought that it would have been quite rude and moronic to sing to her when she was talking live.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:52 pm

Dyched wrote:Exact same would happen here. A few years of survival, comfortable top 10 finishes and the fans get fed up.

Whilst survival is within our ability, I doubt that regular top ten finishes would be.

jurek · Post by **jurek** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:28 pm

Whatever the pros and cons re. whether Cleverly is good enough
if we're interested and it seems we are, then I feel we need to get a bid in
rather than wait until the last moment only to find we've been outbid or he
prefers to go elsewhere.

Given out track record we're as likely to not get him irrespective of what we bid.
Al least we'll know what the scenario is and can move on if necessary.

Rojales Claret · Post by **Rojales Claret** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:12 pm

If we are interested i suspect nothing will happen till Everton nail down Schneiderlin.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:26 pm

The other factor here is Everton's clear interest in Keane. We may, for example, be able to strike a gentleman's agreement on a deal to sell Keane in the summer (subject to the player agreeing) provided that Everton play nice on a deal for Cleverley (who could even be a makeweight in a deal).

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:17 pm

'provided that Everton play nice'

I think those days are well and truly beyond us unfortunately.

Giftonsnoidea · Post by **Giftonsnoidea** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:22 pm

Very ordinary player , no thanks

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:26 pm

I wouldn't want to be using Keane as part of any bargaining tool. If he's to go, which we know is pretty likely, I want us to be getting the very best deal possible and not having some form of agreement in place that may reduce what we could expect for him.

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:54 pm

Might be the other way round though...we give Everton first refusal on Keane in the summer, but at a price we want and with Cleverly on loan ( if it's a loan we want )

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:34 pm

DCWat wrote:I wouldn't want to be using Keane as part of any bargaining tool. If he's to go, which we know is pretty likely, I want us to be getting the very best deal possible and not having some form of agreement in place that may reduce what we could expect for him.

I can see that, but if it is a deal which gives us a good price for Keane, and gives us a player who can really help ensure we play Premier League football again next season (with all that entails financially), I'm not sure that is a bad option for us. After all, if we really wanted to maximise his value, wed sell him now, not when he's only got a year left in the summer - we aren't doing that because staying up is deemed worth the punt - just like with Ings two years ago (except we had more to lose then, and far less chance if the gamble paying off).

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:08 pm

Schneiderlin fee agreed apparently...

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:08 pm

Will the signing of Morgan Schneiderlin now set the wheels in motion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38577591" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:26 pm

Never seen him play that much to form an opinion but must be half decent to play in the top flight for most of his career.

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:35 pm

'Always looked like one of those pampered academy types who just enjoys the lifestyle'

I know Tom's family well, you couldn't be further from the truth. He's a Yorkshire lad who was 'accidentally' born down south.

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:39 pm

Dyched wrote:Not really though. They've had two 9 place finishes the last two seasons. Their highest.

Hardly troubling the European places for such high wages though. Is it that much greater than under pulis?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:46 pm

dougcollins wrote:'Always looked like one of those pampered academy types who just enjoys the lifestyle'

I know Tom's family well, you couldn't be further from the truth. He's a Yorkshire lad who was 'accidentally' born down south.

Do you think he's the type who might buy into what we're about ahead of, say, going to Newcastle?

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:50 pm

Without a doubt.

His mum would be more than happy for him to come to the Turf. She told me today.

jurek · Post by **jurek** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:50 pm

Not sure whether wages might be an issue and if they are then he's more
likely to go elsewhere but the idea of him on loan until the end of the season (with Everton paying half his wages?)
and we give them first option on Keane might be a good deal for all.

Steddyman · Post by **Steddyman** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:55 am

According to Sky he's having a medical with Watford today.

Signing on a loan with an option to buy.

Holtyclaret · Post by **Holtyclaret** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:57 am

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:58 am

Given we have Defour, Marney, Barton, Hendrick, O'Neill and Arfield (at a push) I'm not too concerned that we've missed out on him. Our money is best diverted into areas where we lack quality and / or depth (left back and wingers then!).

SGr · Post by **SGr** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:29 am

What a shame.....

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:35 am

jlup1980 wrote:Given we have Defour, Marney, Barton, Hendrick, O'Neill and Arfield (at a push) I'm not too concerned that we've missed out on him. Our money is best diverted into areas where we lack quality and / or depth (left back and wingers then!).

Definitely need another centre midfielder. We do not want to be ending up like two years ago with Arfield having to play there or indeed O'Neil who looks. Others near ready enough for regular football at this level.

LawsCanalJump · Post by **LawsCanalJump** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:35 am

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:13 am

Grosicki, Narsingh, Cleverly.
Deals not done but by other clubs but starting to get a little demoralizing as it seem's were pipped to the post for everyone we look at.

Jakubs Tash · Post by **Jakubs Tash** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:51 am

I wonder if we couldn't atually push on with this as we don't currently have a slot free for a loan. Maybe Chelsea are dragging their feet making a call on Bamford.... Just a thought.

Jambo · Post by **Jambo** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:23 pm

Michael Keane is already better than Everton. Not arsed about Cleverley going elsewhere, we've got decent options in midfield at the minute anyway, especially if we're sticking with 4-4-2.