Tony Bliar lecturing the British people

[FCBurnley]

Blair and Obama should become Rovers fans. Then they would learn how to lose.

[RingoMcCartney]

Bliar had the opportunity to express his opinion at the ballot box on Thursday 23rd June 2016. Just like the people he looks down upon. He had one vote.

Tony Bliar believes democracy is something only rammed down other people's throats.

[lucs86]

That's all well and good timshorts, but it is our money not the EU's money, it just goes temporarily into their pot.

When I was skiing 2 weeks ago I was taxied back to the airport by a Latvian, who was telling me what a disaster it was when the Soviets fell, and everyone lost their savings overnight, then how wonderful it is to be in the EU that spends loads of money on them. He is terrified about their security, sharing a border with Russia.

In short, Burnley get new town centre paving, Latvia gets new roads and airports along with beefed up security and a seat in Brussels. If they need us so much (which this guy was adamant that they do) why on earth is the UK a net contributor? What right have the Latvians got for their standard of living to be raised to match ours? That should be an earned benefit from decades of graft, not a right in itself. That the EU budget is now in meltdown due to us leaving shows just how unfair it is.

Blair hasn't even begun to address what the chances ever are if we remain of changing that situation where we are just a cash cow for Brussels. Because they are zero.

Wow took me till about half way through that till I realised it was anti-EU! Burnley gets money, poor little Latvia gets money to keep the Russians out, in the club, bit of trade, all seemed good!

The stuff about what rights do they have and decades of graft? What's that about? They were invited in and I'm sure your average Latvian grafts plenty hard enough. With roads and airports your Latvians will one day have the money to spend on all the (Japanese and European) cars, luxury goods, jams and cheeses our businesses export.

[Rowls]

none of which answers the two very simple, sensible, straightforward, non-rhetorical questions i asked you.
for clarity and to keep things even simpler for you, i'll post them again here:

1. if the terms of our exit are going to be detrimental to the country, wouldn't you want a say on it? OR...
2. or are you just not bothered about any negative effects on people? is it brexit or bust for you?

question 2 is a two-parter, hope you can cope with that.

Firstly, you haven't asked these questions before.

Question 1 is actually a "two-parter". The first part "are you going to be detrimental [sic] to the country" is daft. We're back in the territory of that spoof question I asked about wanting a sharp stick up your bottom, aren't we? Ahhhh- you canny old goat! You're not going to trick me into admitting I'd be "detrimental [sic] to the country"!
As for the bit about "wouldn't I want a say on it?" the answer is yes. Yes I want my say in the future of the country. However, I consider my say to have been said when I voted to Leave. That was my say on it.

Question 2:
Part One: "are you just not bothered about any negative effects on people?" Answer: No.
I AM bothered about "negative effects on people". That's part one of this tricky "two-parter" answered.
Part two: "is [sic] it brexit or bust for you?" Answer: No.
I'm not sure what the "bust" bit is. You'd need to explain it. I'm happy for the government to negotiate Brexit. Their strategy has been fairly good so far. We all saw how Cameron failed in his 'renegotiation'. He failed completely because he wasn't prepared to walk away. Theresa May is prepared to walk away, which you ALWAYS have to be prepared to do if you want to get a good deal.
The minimum we will achieve is WTO tariffs. That is not ideal but it is good enough as WTO tariffs are not overly harsh and they hurt the EU more than they hurt us. If the EU goes for a 'nuclear' option it will be of more detriment to them than us and we will be free to trade on our terms with the rest of the world.
As a worst case scenario, that's not too bad.
I imagine the genuine renegotiation can be a lot, lot better than that and that is only from an economic point of view. The return of sovereignty (including taking back control over borders and immigration) also has to be factored in. Again I am happy they way the government is negotiating this.
Other posters, as well as myself, have pointed out the glaring problems with publicly announcing our entire negotiating strategy before talks start. Claretandy in post 100 points out the problem with a referendum on the outcome of negotiations in post 100.

So it's back over to you quoon. I've answered your questions (daft as they were).

You can try to answer mine now.

[whereeaglesfly]

I think Blair just said it to wind up all the rabid right wingers who post on football forums like this one. Just amusing himself really.

[Rowls]

I think Blair just said it to wind up all the rabid right wingers who post on football forums like this one. Just amusing himself really.

If only if only, eh?

Kid yourself all you like. Tony Blair believed he was put on this earth by God with a purpose to engage in politics, including leaving a "lasting legacy".

At first, this vision was to take the UK into the Euro.

Then it became something about starting a war in the Middle East.

We all know how badly the war turned out. We can thank our lucky stars that we didn't get embroiled in the disaster that is the Euro thanks to this heavenly-inspired charlatan.

[Rowls]

Wow took me till about half way through that till I realised it was anti-EU! Burnley gets money, poor little Latvia gets money to keep the Russians out, in the club, bit of trade, all seemed good!

I think you're mistaking NATO and the EU.

The idea that a bureaucracy like the EU could have kept the Red Army at bay is laughable.

[conyoviejo]

How does this odious scumbag get so much media time ? It's Time somebody put a fatwa on him..

[Man of Kent]

Amazing just how many right wingers think Blair is now a war criminal.

Uncanny in fact

I'm a left winger and haven't just 'now' thought he's a war criminal.

[Rowls]

How does this odious scumbag get so much media time ? It's Time somebody put a fatwa on him..

It's time the BBC stopped reporting him as if he's the serving Prime Minister. We've had three since he departed.

Perhaps it will be front page news tomorrow but only the Guardian has this story headlined and even they aren't leading with it.

[Colburn_Claret]

I bet they'd care if prices start to rise or people lose their jobs once we've fully left the EU.

But that will happen sooner or later, in or out of the EU. It's the natural law of progression. Being out of the EU, places us in a far better situation to deal with it than being in. I have a feeling that so many remainers just can't see past the next 6 months. This was a vote taken to determine the next generation or two, and therefore prices rising, or job losses, IF it even happens, should be secondary. There is a far bigger picture to this vote than how much money I have in my pocket for the next 12 months.

[Colburn_Claret]

Blair actually has a point. Yeah, I get that he's not popular, but let's try playing the ball rather than the man, eh?

Nobody knew exactly what they were voting for either way. With Remain, you had a fair idea because it was effectively maintaining the status quo. Leave could mean a thousand different things - Leavers were arguing at the time that we'd have our cake and eat it, leave the political union but stay in the single market, get rid of all the bad bits and keep all the good bits. It's impossible to argue that the 'Hard Brexit' we are getting isn't significantly different from the deal that was being sold at the time of the referendum.

Of course, it might be that a lot of people still want to leave. My personal preference was to remain, but I think too much water has gone under the bridge now to make that a viable option. Either way, the idea that people should have the opportunity to change their mind (or reaffirm their position) based on what we now know isn't worthy of the ridicule that it gets. It's ironic that those most opposed to a second referendum are those who are most insistent that Leaving is the 'Will Of The People' - if that's the case there is nothing to fear, right?

I understand what you mean, but knowing the terms of Brexit doesn't mean we know the outcome for Britain in 2 years time. In or out of the EU you would need a crystal ball for that. It's a step in the dark granted, but as nobody can say with any certainty what any particular outcome will lead to, many are happy to take the step and see.

[Spijed]

There is a far bigger picture to this vote than how much money I have in my pocket for the next 12 months.

Like what?

Is the EU currently so bad that people lead a miserable existence?

[Colburn_Claret]

I think everyone appreciates your honesty, Colburn_Claret. But that 'Brexit at any cost' mentality is worse than just being stubborn. It makes you seem ideological and someone who is completely unwilling to listen to reason.

I suppose I am. I detest the thought of being part of some Federal united states of Europe.
I have absolutely nothing against Europeans of any nationality, I just believe that there is nothing that cannot be achieved through cooperation just as easily as being in some undemocratic state.
Its a pie in the sky dream, it sounds wonderful all this camaraderie, but the reality is you cannot have a one shoe fits all policy on economic union without somebody suffering badly. Just look at the poor Greeks, or youth unemployment in Southern Europe. The lack of flexibility is a mill stone round the neck of any country on the wrong side of the green line. The powers that be in Brussels have their own agenda, that has little or nothing to do with benefit to the peoples of Europe, and even less to the benefit of Britain.

[Colburn_Claret]

Like what?

Is the EU currently so bad that people lead a miserable existence?

Why don't you ask someone from Athens.

[quoonbeatz]

Firstly, you haven't asked these questions before. they were asked in an earlier post that you quoted - i merely repeated them here but made them a bit easier for you to give a simple answer too

Question 1 is actually a "two-parter". The first part "are you going to be detrimental [sic] to the country" is daft. We're back in the territory of that spoof question I asked about wanting a sharp stick up your bottom, aren't we? Ahhhh- you canny old goat! You're not going to trick me into admitting I'd be "detrimental [sic] to the country"! incorrect, its all one very simple straightforward (albeit hypothetical) question
As for the bit about "wouldn't I want a say on it?" the answer is yes. Yes I want my say in the future of the country. However, I consider my say to have been said when I voted to Leave. That was my say on it.

Question 2:
Part One: "are you just not bothered about any negative effects on people?" Answer: No.
I AM bothered about "negative effects on people". That's part one of this tricky "two-parter" answered.
Part two: "is [sic] it brexit or bust for you?" Answer: No. good stuff, so assuming the final deal is going to leave the country and it's inhabitants worse off, you'll be against it. see, it wasn't that hard was it.
I'm not sure what the "bust" bit is. You'd need to explain it. I'm happy for the government to negotiate Brexit. Their strategy has been fairly good so far. We all saw how Cameron failed in his 'renegotiation'. He failed completely because he wasn't prepared to walk away. Theresa May is prepared to walk away, which you ALWAYS have to be prepared to do if you want to get a good deal.
The minimum we will achieve is WTO tariffs. That is not ideal but it is good enough as WTO tariffs are not overly harsh and they hurt the EU more than they hurt us. If the EU goes for a 'nuclear' option it will be of more detriment to them than us and we will be free to trade on our terms with the rest of the world.
As a worst case scenario, that's not too bad.
I imagine the genuine renegotiation can be a lot, lot better than that and that is only from an economic point of view. The return of sovereignty (including taking back control over borders and immigration) also has to be factored in. Again I am happy they way the government is negotiating this.
Other posters, as well as myself, have pointed out the glaring problems with publicly announcing our entire negotiating strategy before talks start. Claretandy in post 100 points out the problem with a referendum on the outcome of negotiations in post 100.

So it's back over to you quoon. I've answered your questions (daft as they were).

You can try to answer mine now. as previously stated, i've answered it already. i even answered it a second time for you

dear me rowls, i know you're in france now but that shouldn't affect your ability to understand basic english.

with that in mind, you're not really offering anything to the debate so its probably best you duck out of it now.

[BennyD]

Whatever you think of Tony Blair (I think he's odious, personally), is there actually anything wrong with this comment:

“The people voted without knowledge of the true terms of Brexit. As these terms become clear, it is their right to change their mind”

Yes there is;

1) That infers that exiters didn't know what they were voting for wheteas (only) the remainers did, and if the remainers moan and made enough noise it is acceptable for there to be a second vote.
2) If the remainers had won, he would have been banging the 'everyone knew what they were voting for' drum and those that didn't (exiters) shouldn't have exercised their democratic right because it doesn't fit in with his view of the world.
3) What right has he got preach about UK politics? The day after he rolled up the bag of sh!t, comprising of a collapsing economy, the unpopularity of Labour which was largely down to him and his 'kitchen cabinet' and the looming expenses scandal, he returned to Sedgewick, resigned the next day and disappeared into a world of money grabbing at any cost which was non-taxable in the UK.

Like I said, the guy always was a prick and always will be. Btw, a starter for 10; who was the only MP not to be examined over expenses claims and why?

[quoonbeatz]

1) That infers that exiters didn't know what they were voting for wheteas (only) the remainers did, and if the remainers moan and made enough noise it is acceptable for there to be a second vote.

it doesn't infer that at all, read it again.

everyone voted without knowing the terms. as the terms become clear everyone has the right to change their minds - either way.

he's talking about people changing their minds so he's clearly not referring to remainers.

thats the point here - whichever way you voted, if the final terms are different to what you wanted/expected, wouldn't you want to have a say on it?

fine if you wouldn't but i know i would.

brexit should be an evolving thing.

[Spijed]

Why don't you ask someone from Athens.

But how is that affecting us and what's it got to do with the UK leaving the EU?

[lucs86]

I think you're mistaking NATO and the EU.

The idea that a bureaucracy like the EU could have kept the Red Army at bay is laughable.

Side issue but being part of the EU means they're politically further from Russia and less under the influence of Putin. Non-EU Montenegro saw a failed Russian coup only a few months ago. Ukraine was keen on EU membership a few years ago, Putin diapproved, been sort of at war since. I'd say EU membership is signifcant for these former Soviet states.

[pushpinpussy]

let us not forget what Mr Blair once represented, nor what he achieved.

[Colburn_Claret]

But how is that affecting us and what's it got to do with the UK leaving the EU?

Because if you want to be part of a federal united states of Europe, what happens to Greeks should be just as big a concern to you as what happens to us. Or are you really that shallow.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Side issue but being part of the EU means they're politically further from Russia and less under the influence of Putin. Non-EU Montenegro saw a failed Russian coup only a few months ago. Ukraine was keen on EU membership a few years ago, Putin diapproved, been sort of at war since. I'd say EU membership is signifcant for these former Soviet states.

Absolutely. Very significant. That was my point about Latvia that you initially commented on. They need to be in the EU desperately. Far more than we do. We benefit from them being in the EU too. The bit I have been unhappy with is why we have to give a chunk of our GDP, in essence, to Latvia (and other net beneficiaries) instead of just letting them grow organically from being in the single market and having the four "freedoms".

If we broke even on the EU budget instead of paying what we do to Brussels so they can give it to other countries, I would have had a more difficult decision in the referendum, but it sounds like reforming that budget was never on the table, and, in terms of this thread, Blair has never mentioned it.

[BennyD]

it doesn't infer that at all, read it again.

everyone voted without knowing the terms. as the terms become clear everyone has the right to change their minds - either way.

he's talking about people changing their minds so he's clearly not referring to remainers.

thats the point here - whichever way you voted, if the final terms are different to what you wanted/expected, wouldn't you want to have a say on it?

fine if you wouldn't but i know i would.

brexit should be an evolving thing.

I don't need to read it again but thanks for the prompt. At the referendum the question was a simple YES or NO. Nowhere on my ballot paper did it say this would be a start of many more referenda on every aspect of the exit terms. Unfortunately for you and people with similar opinions, we will have to trust our elected leaders are going to break with tradition and start acting in our best interests, because if we were to have any more referenda we would open the door to an inevitable delay in exiting which is what the remainers want. You are going to have to accept at some point that this will go ahead, and evolve, without your, or Blairs, input because that was always going to be the case.

[Spijed]

Because if you want to be part of a federal united states of Europe, what happens to Greeks should be just as big a concern to you as what happens to us. Or are you really that shallow.

We are currently in the EU and what's happened in Greece has had little effect on our economy so why should leaving the EU make any difference?

I see IDS was on the news earlier spouting the rubbish that the NHS could benefit from the £20 billion we might save by leaving.....hmmm

Why don't they give the NHS lie a rest as it's obvious the NHS won't get a single penny more once we leave.

[claretandy]

New ICM poll no brexit regrets, 68% want the government to implement the result of the referendum.

[ClaretMoffitt]

New ICM poll no brexit regrets, 68% want the government to implement the result of the referendum.

Can't be right, I thought everybody was regretting their Brexit vote and if a referendum was held again tomorrow remain would win by miles? After all, everyone knows the pound would drop now so all the thick leavers will have changed their minds, right?

[Colburn_Claret]

We are currently in the EU and what's happened in Greece has had little effect on our economy so why should leaving the EU make any difference?

I see IDS was on the news earlier spouting the rubbish that the NHS could benefit from the £20 billion we might save by leaving.....hmmm

Why don't they give the NHS lie a rest as it's obvious the NHS won't get a single penny more once we leave.

You're probably right, but I didn't vote Brexit to give the NHS an extra 20million.

As for Greece we are supposed to stay in the EU because it is beneficial for us, but didn't the Greeks join because THEY thought it would be beneficial to them too. They were handed a poison chalice of money then left in deep doo dah. If the EU can do so little to help the Greeks get out of the mess they are in, partly through the EUs fault, then there is no reason why they can't turn their backs on us anytime they choose.
Self determination, whatever the consequences is the only answer.

[BennyD]

Personally, I am going to enjoy watching the EU go bang. If/when Greece goes back to the drachma in order to avoid more austerity, that day will be so much closer. It will be fun watching the Germans and the french squirm whilst trying to restart their original currencies which will have to be aligned to existing currencies such as Stirling and the Dollar. Happy days, and they are coming!

[Paul Waine]

Busy little thread. What has Tony Blair been saying?

I struggle with the idea that the UK electorate can get a better deal from the EU than the UK government. So, TM, BJ and the rest do their negotiating and a deal is agreed with the 27 member states of the EU. Let's imagine there are some things in the deal that Tony Blair doesn't like - and maybe others don't like also. What is the EU going to do when we say can we have another go at negotiating? Does anyone think that the EU will say "welcome back, everything will be the same as before, sorry we gave you the impression we didn't like you etc. etc. etc?"

We all know that TM wanted to provide early re-assurance on the status of EU citizens living in UK - but, some EU member states didn't want to reciprocate with early re-assurance on the status of UK citizens living in their country.

We all know that the EU wants to make it difficult for the UK so that it discourages other member states from thinking about leaving. And, we all know that there are political groups in several EU member states that are, for their own reasons, keen on leaving.

It's a pity Tony Blair didn't think about what he was doing when he was PM. Maybe the EU wouldn't have gone down the path it's gone down if Mr Blair and his colleagues were better politicians.

[BabylonClaret]

Found this summary from the Feb ICM survey. Interestingly despite more people voting for Brexit in the referendum, more people think it will have a negative economic impact. And of "leavers" 30% don't think it will do well.

Brexit has occupied the public’s thoughts in other ways though – in particular, on how it will manifest itself in terms of national and personal finances. If ever a question exposed the cleavage between two sets of voters this is it. Although there is only a 5-point difference between those who think Brexit will have a negative impact (43%) on the British economy compared to adopting a more positive interpretation (38%), this obscures a huge divide between Remainers and Leavers. Four in five Remainers (81%) think the economy will falter but seven in ten (70%) Leavers believe it will power on.

But this doesn’t necessarily morph into similar views on personal finances, with a majority (54%) believing themselves to be insulated from Brexit trade winds by saying that it will make no difference to their own finances. Leavers (69%) are particularly settled on this view. Three times as many people do think that Brexit will have negative consequences for personal bank accounts though, with 34% saying there will be a downside, compared to only 12% who think positive benefits will come their way. Remainers, as we might expect, are particularly pessimistic are their own prospects, with 60% of them fearful of their financial future.

But the referendum was about more than just economic viability, something reconfirmed by the 41% who predict a positive Brexit-related impact on the general way of life in Britain. A third (36%) deny this, with the views of Remainers and Leavers once more in stark contrast. Three-quarters (73%) of Leavers think things will change here for the better, but almost as many (69%) Remainers think Brexit will have a detrimental impact on the British way of things.

[Paul Waine]

You're probably right, but I didn't vote Brexit to give the NHS an extra 20million.

The tragedy for the UK is that we haven't replaced the NHS with medical care arrangements that are common in most European countries.

Several European countries have better health care systems (I've not got knowledge of all of them, perhaps all of them are better).

But, the EU was never about improving health care systems - or, at least, most UK politicians (and all party leaders) are too scared to admit that the NHS is "less than perfect."

[Paul Waine]

We are currently in the EU and what's happened in Greece has had little effect on our economy so why should leaving the EU make any difference?

I see IDS was on the news earlier spouting the rubbish that the NHS could benefit from the £20 billion we might save by leaving.....hmmm

Why don't they give the NHS lie a rest as it's obvious the NHS won't get a single penny more once we leave.

Hi Spijed, would you be happy to spend some of your own money on your own health care - as most Europeans do? We'd all have a better health system if we were all prepared to spend some of our own money - rather than just expect the "taxpayer to pay."

[Bacchus]

Personally, I am going to enjoy watching the EU go bang.

This is where many Brexit fanatics show their true colours. You want the UK to be out of the EU? Fine, you're as entitled to your opinion & vote as the next person. You want to see the EU collapse, something that would be economically devastating for millions of people and potentially destroy the peace & security we've enjoyed in Europe for decades? That's just being a dick.

[Bacchus]

At the referendum the question was a simple YES or NO.

That was the whole problem.

[BennyD]

This is where many Brexit fanatics show their true colours. You want the UK to be out of the EU? Fine, you're as entitled to your opinion & vote as the next person. You want to see the EU collapse, something that would be economically devastating for millions of people and potentially destroy the peace & security we've enjoyed in Europe for decades? That's just being a dick.

In your opinion, of course. To recap; in the 1930s Germany wanted to become the dominant nation in Europe and thought they could do it by starting a war. Since that turned out badly they've been trying much the same thing by peaceful means. The United States of Europe would have seen them achieve their aim and I'm glad I've helped to subvert that. Oh, btw, I'm not a Brexit 'fanatic' I'm merely someone who exercised their democratic right along with others who formed a majority. On a personal level, I don't give a dead rats a55 about the millions that will be economically devastated (of course they won't, like we aren't going to be, but I'll continue anyway) because they sure as h3ll wouldn't give a dead rats a55 about us. Lash out all you want against the winning side but when the EU does go pop, I promise I won't say "I told you so". BtW, I lied about the last bit.

FWIW, you seem to be another one who confuses NATO and the EU. The US is in NATO but not in the EU and france is in the EU but only a political member of NATO. This, of course, doesn't matter as, to paraphrase General Schwarzkopf; going to war without France is like going duck shooting without an accordion.

[BennyD]

That was the whole problem.

That's no problem, or did you just misunderstand the question?

[Colburn_Claret]

This is where many Brexit fanatics show their true colours. You want the UK to be out of the EU? Fine, you're as entitled to your opinion & vote as the next person. You want to see the EU collapse, something that would be economically devastating for millions of people and potentially destroy the peace & security we've enjoyed in Europe for decades? That's just being a dick.

I do want to see the EU collapse, but why should that be devastating for millions of people. Do you know something that nobody else does. Threats to world peace is the same garbage that Cameron spouted. Try telling the people of France and Germany about their peace and security. It's all pie in the sky.
You don't have to be married to a woman in order to get along. In fact if you're not married you have to treat each other with even greater respect, because you are aware that they can walk away anytime they choose. This idea that if the EU breaks down we'll all start squabbling with each other is utter ********. I've certainly got no axe to grind with any europeans.

[Bacchus]

That's no problem, or did you just misunderstand the question?

That you don't understand why condensing an issue so complex and with so many potential outcomes into a simple yes / no question speaks volumes. If somebody asks you whether you want to leave your house do you just answer yes or no or do you want to know where to? Yes could mean a fortnight in Barbados or it could mean an afternoon at Ewood licking Coyle's underwear clean. No chance to change your mind though, yes means yes.

[JohnMcGreal]

In your opinion, of course. To recap; in the 1930s Germany wanted to become the dominant nation in Europe and thought they could do it by starting a war. Since that turned out badly they've been trying much the same thing by peaceful means. The United States of Europe would have seen them achieve their aim and I'm glad I've helped to subvert that.

What a load of ****.

On a personal level, I don't give a dead rats a55 about the millions that will be economically devastated (of course they won't, like we aren't going to be, but I'll continue anyway) because they sure as h3ll wouldn't give a dead rats a55 about us.

How nice of you. You know, it's people like you who give leave voters a bad name, with your indifference to potential hardship on a massive scale and outright support for the collapse of a peaceful, political union.

[Bacchus]

I do want to see the EU collapse, but why should that be devastating for millions of people. Do you know something that nobody else does. Threats to world peace is the same garbage that Cameron spouted. Try telling the people of France and Germany about their peace and security. It's all pie in the sky.
You don't have to be married to a woman in order to get along. In fact if you're not married you have to treat each other with even greater respect, because you are aware that they can walk away anytime they choose. This idea that if the EU breaks down we'll all start squabbling with each other is utter ********. I've certainly got no axe to grind with any europeans.

Why do you want to see it collapse? Surely once we're out it has no consequence for you.

Why would it be devastating? Europe has been at peace (with each other) for years. 27 counties, many of whom (as we're constantly reminded by Brexit supporters) are economically reliant on the EU, would suddenly be operating in isolation. Russia would all over half of Europe like a cheap suit. Do you think everyone will just play nicely? Do you think the poor will be looked after? Do you think borders will suddenly be secure?

A slow, managed, agreed by all dissolution of the EU would probably be okay. The kind of collapse some seem to want to see would certainly not be.

[Paul Waine]

How nice of you. You know, it's people like you who give leave voters a bad name, with your indifference to potential hardship on a massive scale and outright support for the collapse of a peaceful, political union.

Hi John, does it bother you how many of the youth of Spain, Italy, Greece and other EU member states are out of work as a result of the Euro? Does it bother you how many of the older generation in Greece are suffering because of the austerity they are experiencing because of the Euro?

[Bacchus]

Hi John, does it bother you how many of the youth of Spain, Italy, Greece and other EU member states are out of work as a result of the Euro? Does it bother you how many of the older generation in Greece are suffering because of the austerity they are experiencing because of the Euro?

The idea that problems in Greece are entirely down to the Euro and nothing to do with the fact that half of the country wants to pay no tax and retire at 50 is incredibly one-eyed.

[Colburn_Claret]

Why do you want to see it collapse? Surely once we're out it has no consequence for you.

Why would it be devastating? Europe has been at peace (with each other) for years. 27 counties, many of whom (as we're constantly reminded by Brexit supporters) are economically reliant on the EU, would suddenly be operating in isolation. Russia would all over half of Europe like a cheap suit. Do you think everyone will just play nicely? Do you think the poor will be looked after? Do you think borders will suddenly be secure?

A slow, managed, agreed by all dissolution of the EU would probably be okay. The kind of collapse some seem to want to see would certainly not be.

I want to see it collapse because unlike you I actually do care what happens to the Greeks. By the way I also care about the Dutch, the Germans, the Italians............I also care about the mass youth unemployment in Southern Europe.
The economic reliance on the EU is the stumbling block not the ladder up.
They would only operate in isolation if we slammed the door in their faces. I for one would never dream of doing that. Their independence adds to all of our strength.
Russia would be all over europe only if nobody has the ******** to tell Putin to f**k off.
Do I think everyone will just play nicely..... Do you have such a low opinion of these people, and yet at the same time want us to remain in bed with them.
Give your head a shake please. You can't have it both ways.

[Colburn_Claret]

The idea that problems in Greece are entirely down to the Euro and nothing to do with the fact that half of the country wants to pay no tax and retire at 50 is incredibly one-eyed.

But they lived like that for 50 years pre the Euro and never had any bother. It was the blank cheque that the EU handed them that caused the problems. Nobody asked what they were planning to invest it in, or use it for. Yes they spunked it away. But the EU can't wash their hands of their part in the affair.
The same thing happened with the money handed to Spain and Ireland. Wasted on stupid house building that created jobs, but nobody wanted the finished product. They were like kids in a sweet shop, and that is exactly what the EU wanted. They wanted them hooked so that they could never get away. Now they sit at the masters table waiting for scraps on the floor. Peace in Europe, my F******g Arse.

[IanMcL]

I think TB has been brave to speak when noone else dares. You may think him right or wrong, it does not matter. Everyone else is just plunging ahead on a road unknown.

The reality is that the information given by both sides, at the time of the vote, was very poor and not fit for purpose. It is clear that there is much to lose and some things to gain....but I am still not sure what they are! I do knpow that most of the info at the time was crap and made up - a bit like Trump.

I am all for an ongoing debate about it, with real facts emerging as time goes on, rather than the poster bus pledges of the moment.

[bfcjg]

Tony Blair's eight years as a middle east peace envoy went extremely well, he thinks it did anyway. I cannot take the serial failure seriously.

[BleedingClaret]

Happen he wants to start a civil war, another notch on his war crimes belt

[Lancasterclaret]

Since that turned out badly they've been trying much the same thing by peaceful means. The United States of Europe would have seen them achieve their aim and I'm glad I've helped to subvert that

Oh ffs.

Give yourself a medal you utter loon!

[Lancasterclaret]

And the rest of you with your "Brexit at any cost".

JFW