where do atheists go when they die ?

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:53 pm

tjgh25 wrote:Let's just assume if there isn't a God that theists will be dead for eternity like the rest of us.

But if we assume there isn't a god, which would be your default assumption too if nobody had drummed the idea into you from an early age, then we're both destined for the same fate and you would have wasted the only life you had on pointless superstition.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:57 pm

scouseclaret wrote:But if we assume there isn't a god, which would be your default assumption too if nobody had drummed the idea into you from an early age, then we're both destined for the same fate and you would have wasted the only life you had on pointless superstition.

Unless the suggestion provided purpose and meaning to your life bringing you happiness, motivation and surrounding you with like-minded individuals who worked together for a better life.

But yeah, unless any of that happened because of your religion, you would have wasted your life. (Providing there definitely isn't a God.)

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:00 pm

gandhisflipflop wrote:I beg to differ Sidney. I've thought about this before and questioned whether the world would be a better place without religion and my theory is that it wouldn't because I believe that there are too many people being good for the wrong reasons in fear of repercussions from God that the world would decend into chaos with these people without it.

I said focal point.
At present religion is far to central to society.

It should be a choice to believe and follow, it shouldn't, however, be integral to how society is built/structured/controlled.

If someone wants to believe in some mythical being then that's their choice.

My kids aren't christened, nor will they ever be unless they decide to do it when they're adults.
IF when they're adults they make a choice to follow a religion then that's their decision and that's the best way to it in my opinion.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:04 pm

No Ney Never wrote:It is said that religion provides the benchmark for what good is.

no, Religion is used to control the populace, explain away things that people didn't understand ie miracle's and put fear into people.

Its basically a book of rules.

Being nice to someone else is all about being a decent human being, not because you follow a particular religion.

Out of interest does Religion also provide the benchmark for what's evil?
Considering the number of heinous acts that have been carried out in a gods name....

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:07 pm

https://youtu.be/8r-e2NDSTuE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Claretmatt4 · Post by **Claretmatt4** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:11 pm

You can be a good person and not believe in God.

You can believe in God and be an evil person.

I think being a good and kind person becasue you feel it is the right thing to do is more noble than doing it to earn eternal life.

Plus, of God does exist and he's all powerful and all knowing, isn't it a bit petty to want everyone to follow a set of rules and if they divert from these rules they are punished.

Sounds like a Prick to me. I reckon he wouldn't give a **** as long as you were a good person.

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:39 pm

Rowls wrote:Unless the suggestion provided purpose and meaning to your life bringing you happiness, motivation and surrounding you with like-minded individuals who worked together for a better life.

But yeah, unless any of that happened because of your religion, you would have wasted your life. (Providing there definitely isn't a God.)

...and the suggestion that also brought us the crusades, the inquisition, the burning of "witches", the holocaust, the IRA, al quaeda and Islamic State, but you keep kidding yourself it's all about peace and love and happiness and "a better life".

Stan Tastic · Post by **Stan Tastic** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:42 pm

It's mystifying how no-one has ever seen or heard God, almost as if he doesn't exist.

If you was a God and you wanted everyone to believe in you, what would be the logical means of gaining the world's attention?

Never appear to anyone for all eternity doesn't seem the most intelligent method.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:48 pm

They've appeared to the odd crazy or drug induced person over the centuries, oddly at just the right time.

Now when someone claims they're the son of god, of they've had a vision they're rightly marked as being a bit odd.
Shame they didn't do the same all those thousands of years ago.

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:52 pm

Ultimately religion is born of man's inability to accept the inevitability of his own mortality, which I suppose is where this thread started.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:58 pm

scouseclaret wrote:...and the suggestion that also brought us the crusades, the inquisition, the burning of "witches", the holocaust, the IRA, al quaeda and Islamic State, but you keep kidding yourself it's all about peace and love and happiness and "a better life".

Not kidding myself about anything here.

However, the IRA are not a religious group. The Troubles are a political conflict drawn along religious lines, not the other way round. There are plenty of non-Catholic republicans and a fair few Catholic Unionists.

Neither was the Holocaust committed for religious reasons. That Nazi party was not a branch of Christianity.

On the small issue of Islam, I agree wholeheartedly that it is the most troublesome and grotesque of the current major religions (in its current state) but at the same time it isn't entirely beyond reformation or redemption.

As for the other things you mentioned, they're not particularly current are they?

I weighed in on this debate just to place a little balance to the usual childish claptrap but actually having the debate doesn't interest me too much. Somebody may well reply to this post but I shan't be responding. If you want to have your little anti-Christianity turn and pronounce what a level-headed atheist you are then go ahead. I've always found people who publicly declare themselves to be atheists to be often very lacking in logical thinking and making their own minds up.

Make no bones about it - all the cool kids are doing "atheism" now. The fogeys just don't get it. Look at them! The old fuddy-duddies in their silly hats with their religions and their crusades and their witch-dunking....

So slip on your jeans or your punk outfit or your rockers attire or grow your sideboards long and call yourself a mod. Go on. Show us what a devil-may-care rebel you really are. One point for slagging off Chrisitanity. But ten points for slagging off Catholicism (Fifteen if you mention the Pope).

Further rules: Slagging off Judaism has to have a "ironic" or "post ironic" slant to it (to demonstrate you're not motivated by anti-Semitism) and will win you ten points.

Other further rules: Be careful about slagging off Islam. We don't want to get hurt for our act of rebellion.

However, I shan't be joining in with the game nor having the debate with you. I put away that particular bit of childishness when I became a man. I'm going to play with my lego instead.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:02 pm

Stan Tastic wrote:It's mystifying how no-one has ever seen or heard God, almost as if he doesn't exist.
If you was a God and you wanted everyone to believe in you, what would be the logical means of gaining the world's attention?
Never appear to anyone for all eternity doesn't seem the most intelligent method.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:34 pm

Aliens are the Gods. That's why all the pictures have them with domes in their head. Not halos at all.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:46 pm

For all I'll give a toss they can bung me out on a Friday in a wheelie bin when I'm brown bread.

Just as long it's the correct Friday and the correct wheelie bin. I wouldn't want someone at the glass and plastic recycling plant having to go home due to the shock of having seen my decomposing corpse.

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:52 pm

Where the Hell they like, they are not discriminatory like most religions, plus classing someone as an atheist is also giving them a title, I believe in nothing and do not class myself as atheist, because I am Unbelievable

fatandgrumpy · Post by **fatandgrumpy** » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:53 pm

Don't forget, you are merely atoms, they are billions of years old and your atoms will go on for billions of years after you have gone. You have just borrowed them for this very brief time.

Dressinggown · Post by **Dressinggown** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:00 am

I'm only interested in the short term aftermath following my demise. Funerals are expensive and I've not signed up to one of those adverts on the telly where they can sort out your funeral at payment rates which will send you to an early grave.

Although illegal, my 'burial' should be carried out on the Leeds & Liverpool Canal with the 'mourners' drinking supermarket vodka as they hoy me into the water.

Fitting me into a wheelie bin liner loaded with a few rocks should avoid me rising to the surface when putrefaction sets in.

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:02 am

Same place as everyone else.

Guller Bull · Post by **Guller Bull** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:09 am

I've got kin headache now ya baskets!

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:17 am

I noticed none of you pussies have taken up the challenge of the art I put up. I would have thought Rowls at least would have a bit of interest in philosophy of language.

Here's a horrible thought. if you have a car accident or were unlucky enough to catch a GermanWings flight from Barcelona, you experience your death in slow motion at the other side. NOPE. NO THANKS.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:21 am

Pstotto wrote:I noticed none of you pussies have taken up the challenge of the art I put up. I would have thought Rowls at least would have a bit of interest in philosophy of language.

Here's a horrible thought. if you have a car accident or were unlucky enough to catch a GermanWings flight from Barcelona, you experience your death in slow motion at the other side. NOPE. NO THANKS.

I did actually love that bit of artwork and thought it was the best post of the thread.

For a brief few seconds I considered it as wall art for my little apartment but space is short and pictures of family members take precedence.

Also, the printer has run out of coloured ink. If there is a God I think he wants me to keep the photos of nieces and nephews but I shall continue to look for his existence in artwork and patterns. Or in a wealth of peonies, or the rainbow in the sand as the sea washes in. etc etc.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:34 am

According to Charles C. Tart 37% of cannabis users saw 'hidden order' when they were stoned. The order of form representation in images is a constant because shape represents form. Even a bird splat on the pavement represents form, so it's only natural that folk would believe in a world of order, hidden. That's because there is a world of order hidden, the order of perspectival form representation. The hidden aspect is that the form is hidden by the shape that represents it. Catch-22. Can't see trapezoid projected from square, because projected trapezoid looks like square. Peek-a-boo something or other, or just a God chimera? Maybe we might find out when we die. Maybe not.

All religions make out they are the chosen ones, it's just they're so jealous of God's attention to others that they can't hack it, so only THEIR faith can be tyhe one. All of them the same, all of them think they are right and all of them are involved in sectarianism.

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:49 am

A couple of years ago I was listening to Talksport in the early hours when they did a topical phone in show.
The topic was "Does god exist".
There is one certain two-way phone in chat I recall more vividly than others .A very religious lady whom sounded very well to do,intelligent and articulate,was adamant that human life on earth began just 6000 years ago.
How backward is that ?

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:10 am

The hidden order of things is a wonder to behold. And if you can decipher the order and work out why it's there and where it came from ... God is in the detail.

My Dad has some box folders like this:

And they're decorated with a pattern similar to the one visible on the inside of that folder. They're from the 1970s so before computer printing was used for something as everyday as a box folder.

As I was looking at the pattern I did what I always do when I see a pattern like that. I looked to see if it repeated. If you can see a repeating pattern you can gauge how large the stem pattern is and you can guess how the factory achieved the effect. Patterns usually repeat fairly shortly, even in seemingly random designs like the one above.

The thing with my Dad's old box folders is that, unlike modern patterns which repeat very precisely (because the imagine is digitally reproduced in facsimile) the pattern did not repeat in any logical manner.

If the pattern had been printed by a roller, it would have repeated fairly accurately and the only different between the repetitions would have be caused by a loss of ink or change or pressure as the roller went along. If the pattern had been pressed on my hand (using stamps, for example) it would have repeated (but not at the exacting intervals of modern digital printing) and the human element would have been visible in the pattern possibly overlapping and by judging the perceived distance between the patterns by crossing your eyes to create a stereoscopic vision of how the pattern repeated.

If was when I did this (having noted a section that did repeat) that I found something very strange - the pattern repeated but only in oddly shaped chunks. These chunks were strange shapes made up of strictly mathematical arcs and straight lines without every having any right angles; all the corners were rounded. They were roughly rectangular but that is to say that they repeated in parallel lines of roughly rectangular chunks. No two chunks repeated exactly. Some only repeated once. Others diminished as they repeated.

They can't have been made by a person stamping out the pattern because they would overlap and different parts of each "chunk" would repeat with machine-level accuracy that a person could never achieve. They could not have been achieved with anything as straightforward as a roller (because that would repeat predictably without the "chunk"s) They could not possibly have been achieved with computer printing because (a) they are older that computer printing that would have proved cost-effective and (b) why would anyone bother to introduce a random element into a computer printed pattern like that?

The arcs that formed the chunks suggests to me some kind of spherical cutting device?

I traced around the sections I saw that repeated and it showed the outline of the chunks - they made shapes similar to those overlayed onto the photograph that you posted pstotto.

I'd really like to know how you mechanically create a pattern like that without using a roller, a consistently shaped stamp or computer printing.

If anyone worked in a folder factory in the 1970s and knows how that kind of pattern was achieved, please post and let me know.

God is in the detail.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:16 am

The pic I posted above doesn't actually have a pattern that repeats (not that I can see at any rate) but the following one does:

And it repeats in the same, odd way I tried to describe above. That is to say that only parts of it repeat while other parts don't and the bits that DO repeat don't repeat with any consistent pattern.

Does anyone with any experience of printing techniques know how this pattern is achieved?

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:19 am

They usually say the devil is in the detail, not God. Silly faces can form from any mark so, more devil than God is likely to show up, methinks. Rowls, it's the same transcendental order whether you're looking at a Jackson Pollock or a plate of lasagne, it's probably patterns in the brain after all, it looks like a mass of writhing bodies, the brain does.

Regarding the box file, you don't know how big the rolls of paper are, that made it, so how it's made might be harder to work out. There used to be a massive paper mill in Burnley, where the college is now. An old timer might have an answer.

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:22 am

It would be thrown out of court.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:25 am

For those who aren't sure what I'm on about, here it is circled for you:

The part of the pattern inside the red ring I drew actually repeats. You should be able to just about work it out - there are three iterations of the same pattern, running nicely parallel to each other.

However, nothing else repeats. Only that little bit.

So the question is:

Why would you create a pattern that only repeated a little bit? Surely you attempt something completely Jackson Pollock or you go for something which was definitively repetitive?

And how do you create such a pattern that repeats only a little bit? And why do the repetitions only occur in chunks with rounded arcs?

If anyone can answer these questions they'll really take a load off my mind.

The God is in the detail.

Thanks,

Rowls

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:26 am

conyoviejo wrote:Just wondered what happened to them..

Probably the same place as everyone else.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:29 am

conyoviejo wrote:But there is a God ..

OK. Source?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:30 am

tjgh25 wrote:But there isn't a God.

OK. Source?

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:31 am

Pstotto wrote:They usually say the devil is in the detail, not God.

"God is in the detail" is the original phrase, and it works much better. Perhaps the Devil switched the phrases round when nobody was paying attention?

Pstotto wrote:Silly faces can form from any mark so, more devil than God is likely to show up, methinks. Rowls, it's the same transcendental order whether you're looking at a Jackson Pollock or a plate of lasagne, it's probably patterns in the brain after all, it looks like a mass of writhing bodies, the brain does.
Regarding the box file, you don't know how big the rolls of paper are, that made it, so how it's made might be harder to work out. There used to be a massive paper mill in Burnley, where the college is now. An old timer might have an answer.

I hope somebody has the answer Pstotto. But even if the folder pattern came from an improbably large sheet of paper originally there are two facts that remain:

1. It still has repeating sections within it.
2. The makers had the sense of duty to put it on so that the repeating chunks ran parallel to the length of the folder.

Accident? That's highly improbable.

PS: I typed my previous post before I saw your reply (quoted above) so it's great to know we both referenced Jackson Pollock independently.

It's a shame he's named after such a tasteless fish.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:32 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:OK. Source?

Ah-ha!

AtheistTurtle has arrived!

This thread is, to my mind, now "complete".

And as luck would have it, the Devil (or God) made him do a duplicate post on it too.

If you believe in them.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:36 am

BennyD wrote:Religion is merely a tool to control an uneducated/gullible population.

Uh-oh. We agree on something.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:43 am

Rowls wrote:Ah-ha!

AtheistTurtle has arrived!

This thread is, to my mind, now "complete".

And as luck would have it, the Devil (or God) made him do a duplicate post on it too.

If you believe in them.

My previous post isn't duplicate. You were so certain of your view that you didn't stop to consider the possibility that you might be wrong, which has led to you embarrassing yourself.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:48 am

A few appropriate stereograms to look at:

This one's not quite consistent:

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:46 am

Rowls wrote:Not kidding myself about anything here.

However, the IRA are not a religious group. The Troubles are a political conflict drawn along religious lines, not the other way round. There are plenty of non-Catholic republicans and a fair few Catholic Unionists.

Neither was the Holocaust committed for religious reasons. That Nazi party was not a branch of Christianity.

On the small issue of Islam, I agree wholeheartedly that it is the most troublesome and grotesque of the current major religions (in its current state) but at the same time it isn't entirely beyond reformation or redemption.

As for the other things you mentioned, they're not particularly current are they?.

Merely pointing out that people have been murdering one another in the name of "God" for centuries, so don't make out it purely a force for good.

No Ney Never · Post by **No Ney Never** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:01 am

Sidney1st wrote:Out of interest does Religion also provide the benchmark for what's evil?
Considering the number of heinous acts that have been carried out in a gods name....

If you believe that the opposite of good is evil then perhaps it's a simple deduction.
Heinous acts carried out by who? Is this the same as football hooliganism carried out in the name of the club which you follow?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:04 am

No Ney Never wrote:If you believe that the opposite of good is evil then perhaps it's a simple deduction.
Heinous acts carried out by who? Is this the same as football hooliganism carried out in the name of the club which you follow?

Are you aware of the phrase that was on the belt buckles of German soldiers?
How about the crusades?

There's a list of things where people have invoked God before doing something that any sane, sensible person wouldn't do.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:24 am

If it's a tool to control populations there have been a lot of gullible geniuses.

Religion is just a natural expression of mans createdness, whether an expression of his own wishes desires feelings and beliefs or those he believes to come from some external source.

Yes these beliefs can in certain people's hands be used to exert control, in others to liberate.

By their fruits you will know them.

No Ney Never · Post by **No Ney Never** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:30 am

Sidney1st wrote:There's a list of things where people have invoked God before doing something that any sane, sensible person wouldn't do.

Given that you don't agree with what they're doing, why would you believe the excuse they're using for carrying out such acts if they're insane?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:35 am

No Ney Never wrote:Given that you don't agree with what they're doing, why would you believe the excuse they're using for carrying out such acts if they're insane?

I don't believe the excuse they're using, never said I did, I think they're stupid/insane.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:00 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Uh-oh. We agree on something.

That means I've been wrong all these years!

brexit · Post by **brexit** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:31 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudeism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
Always apply

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:32 am

fatandgrumpy wrote:Don't forget, you are merely atoms, they are billions of years old and your atoms will go on for billions of years after you have gone. You have just borrowed them for this very brief time.

I take going off your user name, you have borrowed a few more Atoms than most of us,

Goodclaret · Post by **Goodclaret** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:52 am

Why do atheists get so much stick for saying they are atheists? If someone says they go to church I wouldn't ridicule them but if it crops up that I'm an atheist it's immediately "oh you should keep that to yourself". It's very hypocritical, very much like religion, in my opinion.

I see myself as a good person, I try to do the right thing and feel I follow what a good Christian deems the correct route in life, however, as I don't believe in God I will go to hell! How can that possibly work? I could murder someone, go to prison, turn to the "book" and be forgiven and heaven here I come. It just doesn't follow logic to me so I will struggle with the concept of religion.

I have every respect for someone who believes and, if that gives comfort, support, friendships etc then what is there not to like about it? However, I feel the opposite should also stand. I have some great friends who are religious and some who aren't. They key to them is the "great" bit not the fact I should or shouldn't be attending church or praying.

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:06 am

I believe the Atheists or non believers "in my case" came before Christianity, Islam or Buddhism, then when the Bible is written thousands of years later Adam and Eve turn out to be Gods creations

Fiction or what?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:10 am

Christianity/Catholicism borrows from previous religions anyway that much is clear.

I think Christ was possibly based on an Egyptian god, can't remember which one though.
The story of Noah has been linked to previous stories of a great flood etc.

Same with Islam, that was also created using bits from other desert religions at the time and then forced on other people using the sword.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:13 am

Ricky Gervais has a good argument when it comes to religion and how ridiculous it is.

In short he points out that if all life started again from the begining all the religions would be different but all the science would be the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZOwNK6n9U" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:16 am

It's always amusing to see the grief he gets on Twitter when he mentions religion.

Cheers for linking that, was a very good watch.