O/T Just let it go

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Rowls
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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:36 pm

Spiral wrote:Too right. How else would I know how to properly treat my slave? Three cheers for piety.
Yes hoorah for that.

And thank the almighty for mellowing out in these modern times. Poor old Lot's wife got turned into a pillar of salt just for looking at something proscribed.

We'd all be saxo these days if that were still the punishment.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by martin_p » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:49 pm

Rowls wrote:She is many things but a "fibber" and "inept" are two things which she is not.

She is a devout Christian and unabashed truth-teller. She is a lady who delivers constant home-truths to those who she believes do not have a good grasp of their brief.

As for the idea that she is "inept" - this is laughable. She has a reputation based on over 20 years as an MP as one of the hardest working and efficient MPs in Parliament. She held her previous role as Home Secretary for the longest period in 60 years and achieved many successes that had eluded her predecessors.

The post had previously been the deathbed of many politicians. Her record as Home Secretary is excellent.

She may not be charismatic or glamorous and she may indulge in too much politicking from time to time but the accusations you are trying to throw here simply do not match up to Theresa May's record or abilities. She is a model of quiet competence.
While it might be a stretch to call her a liar, she's clearly a huge hypocrite. In her secret speech at Goldman Sachs she was very clear that Brexit would be bad for the economy and that companies would leave the UK. She seems to have conveniently forgotten all that and now somehow thinks that 'taking back control' will be good for the UK. I'm not religious so I'm not sure where it stands on weapons grade hypocrisy.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Spijed » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:52 pm

Rowls wrote:I was resolutely descriptivist. It's genuinely diffiult to get "gushy" about somebody as bland as Theresa May.

You've mistaken complimentary language for emotional attachment.



Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Christians are more honest than most. Good* Christians (and I believe Theresa May to be one) doubly so.

We are all imperfect creatures and prone to telling porkies. What's to stop us? Well, if you're an atheist then only your internal sense of morality. If you're a Christian you have that in equal measure to the atheist but you also have God's looming judgement swinging above your mortal soul. Human nature being what it is, it's a handy thing to have that Old Testament God hanging around at times.

* By which I mean, regular church-going Christians who actually uphold Christian values; not just any old preachy soul who happens to have 'found Christ'.
Considering I'm an atheist by your definition I'm far more dishonest than you are, or others on this board who happen to believe in God.

Oh well. :(

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:55 pm

martin_p wrote:While it might be a stretch to call her a liar, she's clearly a huge hypocrite. In her secret speech at Goldman Sachs she was very clear that Brexit would be bad for the economy and that companies would leave the UK. She seems to have conveniently forgotten all that and now somehow thinks that 'taking back control' will be good for the UK. I'm not religious so I'm not sure where it stands on weapons grade hypocrisy.
Changing your mind based upon the decision of the electorate does not equate to "hypocrisy".

In fact, it's easier to see her actions as more noble - she is giving the electorate what they have called for despite her personal opinions.

Perhaps if she was secretly planning to move to Brussels and apply to be the new President of the EU whilst organising Brexit your accusation could stick. Perhaps -with some justification- you could say that her support for the Remain campaign was luke-warm at best, possibly dishonest and based on political manoeuvring (see my earlier criticism of her).

However, I feel it's stretching definition of the word hypocrisy to breaking point martin.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Rowls » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:57 pm

Spijed wrote:Considering I'm an atheist by your definition I'm far more dishonest than you are, or others on this board who happen to believe in God.
Oh well. :(
That is NOT what I said spijed. :roll:

FWIW you come across as a very likeable and amiable person. I'd happily share a pint with you if we ever met.

All I said is that if you believe in an omniscient God you have one more reason than an atheist not to tell a lie.

PS: I am not religious.
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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by martin_p » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:58 pm

I think telling people not to take us out of the EU then taking us out of the EU is a text book definition of the word.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Bdc » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:10 pm

May is a Tory first and a Christian second. Hope Rowls is on a fishing expedition rather than believing all that guff

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by alicante claret » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:11 pm

I voted remain, I am not certain I was right or wrong, however I do know that the political classes were opportunist, to be told it should be end of argument is all a bit rich. Farage who has funded his life work from the organisation he wants to destroy would not be silenced by such a result. Boris appears not to even believe himself. Cameron had disappeared and Corbyn is as ineffectual on this as everything else. Who knows the truth of the argument?

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:57 am

Surely the point about May is that she is perfectly entitled and indeed mandated to change her mind about remaining, but given her previously strongly held views about the damage to the economy, her transformation to a hard line Brexiteer advocating an exit from the single market, and putting migration ahead of business seems like political opportunism.
She seemed perfectly qualified to unite the country, but we are more divided than ever.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Sidney1st » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:59 am

martin_p wrote:I think telling people not to take us out of the EU then taking us out of the EU is a text book definition of the word.
She's doing her job as PM, due to a democratic vote.

Not leading us out of Europe would be worse.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Damo » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:18 am

I still find it amusing how, when remoaners are challenged about being undemocratic, they suddenly compare themselves to Nigel Farage.
I thought they hated him?

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by firstclaret » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:13 pm

Her predecessor certainly didn't fancy sticking around to deal with it.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Hipper » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:53 pm

martin_p wrote:I think telling people not to take us out of the EU then taking us out of the EU is a text book definition of the word.
She wasn't telling us, she was trying to persuade us.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by martin_p » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:40 pm

Sidney1st wrote:She's doing her job as PM, due to a democratic vote.

Not leading us out of Europe would be worse.
The democratic vote she knew about before she took the job. When the major job a government has got is taking us out of the EU you shouldn't be putting yourself forward as leader if you don't believe it's the right thing to do. It is, as I said, the very definition of hypocrisy!

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Sidney1st » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:56 pm

martin_p wrote:The democratic vote she knew about before she took the job. When the major job a government has got is taking us out of the EU you shouldn't be putting yourself forward as leader if you don't believe it's the right thing to do. It is, as I said, the very definition of hypocrisy!
I think you're confusing yourself here.

Yes she campaigned for one particular outcome HOWEVER she's acting out her duties as PM, something Cameron didn't have the balls to do after the result.

It isn't hypocrisy to do the job you've got, regardless of which way she wanted it to go.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by dsr » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:13 pm

It's pretty obvious really - she wanted to stay in the EU, but not with a crusader's zeal. But she also wants to follow the rules of democracy; so after a majority vote to leave, she's willing to accept that she must change her mind.

Politicians who wanted to remain, and who wish to remain in politics and in government, have to ask themselves which is more important: their own personal opinion, or the result of a public referendum. If they decide their own opinion is more valid or more important than the majority view of the electorate, then they must leave the government. If they are willing to accept the referendum result and work towards leaving the EU, then they are fine to stay in government.
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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Spijed » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:29 pm

dsr wrote:It's pretty obvious really - she wanted to stay in the EU, but not with a crusader's zeal. But she also wants to follow the rules of democracy; so after a majority vote to leave, she's willing to accept that she must change her mind.

Politicians who wanted to remain, and who wish to remain in politics and in government, have to ask themselves which is more important: their own personal opinion, or the result of a public referendum. If they decide their own opinion is more valid or more important than the majority view of the electorate, then they must leave the government. If they are willing to accept the referendum result and work towards leaving the EU, then they are fine to stay in government.
Even though Kenneth Clarke is not in government he seems to get a very easy ride from the Conservative party over his stance on leaving the EU, especially from members in the cabinet.

Surely that's double standards?

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by aggi » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:49 pm

Rowls wrote:The post had previously been the deathbed of many politicians. Her record as Home Secretary is excellent.

She may not be charismatic or glamorous and she may indulge in too much politicking from time to time but the accusations you are trying to throw here simply do not match up to Theresa May's record or abilities. She is a model of quiet competence.
Image

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by martin_p » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:06 pm

Sidney1st wrote:I think you're confusing yourself here.

Yes she campaigned for one particular outcome HOWEVER she's acting out her duties as PM, something Cameron didn't have the balls to do after the result.

It isn't hypocrisy to do the job you've got, regardless of which way she wanted it to go.
She didn't have the job when the referendum happened, she 'applied' for it after the result was known. It's like a vegetarian applying for a job in a butchers! At least Cameron was honourable enough to step down when he knew he'd have to take the county in a direction he didn't believe in.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Colburn_Claret » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:33 pm

I think you'll find Cameron stepped down because he was a busted flush, honour didn't come in to it.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Sidney1st » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:50 pm

So because she wanted the top job she's a hypocrite?

You're on crack aren't you??
That's a serious question.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:44 pm

Uncanny the amount of brexiteers that are so opposed to the undemocratic nature of the Eu, but by a complete coincidence, also come across as ever so slightly bigoted on threads about Islam.

Uncanny

And just like the likes of bill cash did, I ain't going to stop fighting for what I believe is right.

I

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by paulus the woodgnome » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:53 pm

RocketLawnChair wrote:Who else likes sausages, I love um !
I do. Preferably with mash, gravy and peas. Yum.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by bobinho » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:14 pm

HelloHiGoodbye wrote:If the vote had been the other way around, with the same margin, Nigel Farage and his followers would've thrown the largest paddy in history.
But it wasn't. So they didn't.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Hipper » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:24 pm

I thought dwarfs were thrown, not Paddies?

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:45 pm

Damo wrote:I still find it amusing how, when remoaners are challenged about being undemocratic, they suddenly compare themselves to Nigel Farage.
I thought they hated him?

I find it amusing that Brexiteers claim to love democracy, except when people share opinions they don't like, or demonstrate opposition to something.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:15 pm

HelloHiGoodbye wrote:If the vote had been the other way around, with the same margin, Nigel Farage and his followers would've thrown the largest paddy in history.
When it comes to throwing paddys, nobody does it quite like the left.
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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by martin_p » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:42 pm

I think some people need lessons on what a democracy actually is. Yes a decision has been made, and yes the government has a duty to act on that decision. But a democracy doesn't mean that everyone has to agree with it or stop fighting for what they believe in!
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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Sidney1st » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:18 pm

We all know what democracy is.

Its the sodding name calling by both sides that's boring as **** and tends to make some of the debates on here not worth reading.

People who voted leave are apparently stupid, people who voted remain are also apparently stupid.
Meh.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by martin_p » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:25 pm

Sidney1st wrote:We all know what democracy is.
You only have to look at the thread title to see that's not true.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Sidney1st » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:35 pm

Its someone fishing that's what the thread title is.
It then descends into the usual name calling, usually Turtle calling leave voters idiots, then there's lots of the usual stuff said.

This one was a little different when someone struggled with the idea of someone doing their job, despite a possibly opposing view before the vote.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by martin_p » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:43 pm

Sidney1st wrote: This one was a little different when someone struggled with the idea of someone doing their job, despite a possibly opposing view before the vote.
And someone struggled with the concept that applying for a job that will involve implementing something you don't agree with is hypocritical.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Sidney1st » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:46 pm

It's the top job, I'm not overly arsed if she agreed with the result or not.

I'm more arsed about her doing the job properly then whining about her taking the job.
Better her then Boris, lets be honest.

The other bloke didn't really stand out as a sensible option either.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Damo » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:15 am

As a politician, she would be a hypocrite for not invoking what the public voted for.
You don't represent the people by spitting your dummy out and doing what's best for yourself

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by PutTheWheelieBinsOut » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:33 am

martin_p wrote:I think some people need lessons on what a democracy actually is. Yes a decision has been made, and yes the government has a duty to act on that decision. But a democracy doesn't mean that everyone has to agree with it or stop fighting for what they believe in!
Yes you have a point, just like those who didn't agree with the vote to join, the likes of Tony Benn, he didn't change his view because of the democratic result of the 1975 referendum.

But it did take the anti-europeans 41 years to get their second referendum, so if the remoaners keep up their campaign then maybe we will have another referendum in 2057. Seems fair.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by martin_p » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:43 am

Damo wrote:As a politician, she would be a hypocrite for not invoking what the public voted for.
You don't represent the people by spitting your dummy out and doing what's best for yourself
I think you're confusing politician with civil servant! Politicians are supposed to have opinions and visions about the future for our country and try to persuade enough people that's it's a good vision to get into a position to get it done. An impartial civil service then has to implement those ideas. With something as fundemantal to our future as EU membership then if you don't think it's a good idea you shouldn't be involved.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:51 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:When it comes to throwing paddys, nobody does it quite like the left.

At least with the left it stops at a temper tantrum and not terrorism. I can't remember any examples of the left being provoked into such a frenzy that some of them go around killing people over equal marriage rights, or immigration rights, etc.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Damo » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:16 am

martin_p wrote:I think you're confusing politician with civil servant! Politicians are supposed to have opinions and visions about the future for our country and try to persuade enough people that's it's a good vision to get into a position to get it done. An impartial civil service then has to implement those ideas. With something as fundemantal to our future as EU membership then if you don't think it's a good idea you shouldn't be involved.
I don't think you quite understand referendums. All the persuasion happens BEFORE the vote takes place.
The people decided and now her job is to deliver Brexit

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by martin_p » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:18 am

Damo wrote:I don't think you quite understand referendums. All the persuasion happens BEFORE the vote takes place.
The people decided and now her job is to deliver Brexit
I'll point out again, her job on the day of the referendum was Home Secretary.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Damo » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:20 am

martin_p wrote:I'll point out again, her job on the day of the referendum was Home Secretary.
Exactly. So whatever her opinion once she became PM is irrelevant.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:25 am

martin_p wrote:I think you're confusing politician with civil servant! Politicians are supposed to have opinions and visions about the future for our country and try to persuade enough people that's it's a good vision to get into a position to get it done. An impartial civil service then has to implement those ideas. With something as fundemantal to our future as EU membership then if you don't think it's a good idea you shouldn't be involved.
Hi martin_p, agree with the distinction you make between politicians and civil servants.

Given the result of the referendum and David Cameron's resignation, the best outcome for the country was for Theresa May to step up to become PM. Cameron only had two chances of remaining after the election: (1) win the remain vote; (2) be neutral between remain and leave. Neither of these happened, so Cameron had to resign (though he didn't need to also resign as an MP, but no great loss).

Then we look at the candidates for leader of Cons and PM - and their track record in government and in the referendum. As a country we are very lucky that there was a strong candidate who had been "quietly" on the remain side with the capability to lead the Cons and lead the country.

It's remarkable that we have our second female PM. (Maybe the gender of the PM will become less remarkable in future years). I'm sure the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, for both the UK and EU, will be better as a result of Theresa May's leadership than any other candidate.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Rowls » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:28 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Uncanny the amount of brexiteers that are so opposed to the undemocratic nature of the Eu, but by a complete coincidence, also come across as ever so slightly bigoted on threads about Islam.
It would be better if you actually had the courage to say what you mean here Lancaster - For the record.

"Ever so slightly bigoted" sounds, well, ever so slightly sly. Please be more candid.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by martin_p » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:29 am

Well I prefer my politicians to stand for something, have the courage of their convictions and not do a complete about face on such a fundamental issue just to further their own career.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Damo » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:30 am

Then you should give North Korea a try martin

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:10 am

Think its clear enough Rowls.

Bright bloke like you should be able to see it.

Or maybe you are like quite a lot of your type, you just ignore the rather nasty bits of your support?

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Sidney1st » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:18 am

martin_p wrote:Well I prefer my politicians to stand for something, have the courage of their convictions and not do a complete about face on such a fundamental issue just to further their own career.
You're in the wrong country if you want that.

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:27 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:At least with the left it stops at a temper tantrum and not terrorism. I can't remember any examples of the left being provoked into such a frenzy that some of them go around killing people over equal marriage rights, or immigration rights, etc.
Hi IT, are you having a Sean Spicer moment? Or, like Arsene Wenger you "didnt see it?"
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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:14 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi IT, are you having a Sean Spicer moment? Or, like Arsene Wenger you "didnt see it?"

Go on then. To whom are you comparing modern left-wing political protesters?

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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by dsr » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:27 pm

martin_p wrote:Well I prefer my politicians to stand for something, have the courage of their convictions and not do a complete about face on such a fundamental issue just to further their own career.
But it wasn't a complete about face. She went from "On balance I support membership of the EU" to "I support the result of the referendum". Are you saying that every single politician who supported membership of the EU should never again sit in government in the UK? I would have thought it a valid position to say that although the current situation was not their first choice, they are willing to accept majority rule and will go forward and make the best of the situation. Who knows, there may even be a politician or two willing to concede that although the decision wasn't a decision they would have taken, there is nonetheless a possibility that it was the right decision!

Politicians who were EU first and UK as an afterthought, would be hypocritical to want to be in a UK government. I don't think Teresa May was ever that.
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Re: O/T Just let it go

Post by HelloHiGoodbye » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:41 pm

Surely if you voted Leave you'd want someone who wanted to Leave to negotiate us Leaving, no? Or is that far too sensible?*

*That reasoning might leave us open to a lunatic like Johnson being in actual charge, so perhaps, yeah, we'll keep May. Just.

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