Defour

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:23 am

It looks like I have some support on this topic, I guess everybody who agrees with me is a supposed b**tard fan too. Steven Defour is the most talented footballer in the squad, I don't give a toss what Dyche says or thinks on this matter. Oh and it looks like I'm not the only who hates watching this dull style of football after all.

Me and ABC have been preaching this since day one, as the games go by, our words become clearer and clearer. The number of KRBFC and ABC followers are growing and growing. We see things before others. (I predicted no more than 5 points away from home after a couple of away games)

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:25 am

Over 200 posts on this topic, I thank my followers for the back up and continued support.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:08 am

Rileybobs wrote:Sam Vokes plays alongside Gareth Bale on the world stage. What's your point?

If your best player is Ronaldo or Messi I'd agree that you build a system around that player. In Defour's case it's absolutely not down to the manager to figure out a system that works for your best player. Defour's not even our best player which makes these kinds of suggestions all the more laughable.

who is our best player Riley ?

PutTheWheelieBinsOut · Post by **PutTheWheelieBinsOut** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:24 am

Isn't the problem really that whilst we were picking up points most of us would accept this Dyche brand of 'football' . When it's not successful thats when the style/brand loses support. If Dyche himself wants to progress in his management career and move to so called bigger clubs he must adapt his style next season, because fans of teams above us simply won't accept this style of 'football'. Tony Pullis is a fine example of this, he struggled to further his career when he was at Stoke and move to a bigger club when he himself had one particular brand of football that some would say was successful.

Finally another quote from another hugely successful manager.

"If God had wanted us to play football in the clouds, he'd have put grass up there."

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:33 am

Rileybobs wrote:Different leagues have different physical demands. It's fairly common knowledge that the English Premier League is more physically demanding than others in Europe.

I'm not sure how you can not have doubts about his fitness and general proneness to injury. He has hardly completed a 90 minutes to my knowledge and came off injured in his last start.

The whole 'framework' is what got us here and is likely going to lead to our highest league finish in decades. It's really strange that you would think that accommodating Defour is more important than the bigger picture.

With respect, it seems that you have a hard-on for Defour and it's seriously clouding your judgement.

With respect Rileybobs, but your blind faith in the manager appears to cloud your own judgement.

For the record (please check all my previous posts): I have stated all along that I can live with the manner in which we (hopefully) will survive this season, for which I commend SD. But if you look at the stats that will certainly have nothing to do with the points tally we accumulated over the last period, during which Defour has been omitted - even when fit and even when he could have made an impact, say after half-time. We lost at Man City when facing ten men, whilst Defour could have made a half time impact to try and win the game, we lost at West Ham after playing absolute rubbish football against a poor side, and there are so many other examples when we lost or threw away points by not being proactive or courageous.

Do you seriously deny that SD decided to revert to his trusted 4-4-2 and the omission of Defour after the WBA game? Did you see that game and can you tell me who were at fault for the poor goals conceded?

What I have said all along is that we cannot survive another season doing the same, and we need more technical players to change the rigid and one dimensional manner ('framework') of playing which all opponents now seem to have sussed out.
Now, what kind of signal is Dyche sending to better players? You need to be a running robot and pay like a robot or your not going to figure in my side?

Defour has hardly completed 90 minutes, yes, but that's not always been up to him.

Do you have any proof whatsoever that the player is unfit at present? If so, please divulge the evidence. Can anyone who follows the daily training let us know whether Defour is involved in the full sessions or not? If so, please let us know. That may put an end to all this nonsense being spouted around. For all I know, he is fit and well, and can improve the side.

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:38 am

KRBFC wrote:It looks like I have some support on this topic, I guess everybody who agrees with me is a supposed b**tard fan too. Steven Defour is the most talented footballer in the squad, I don't give a toss what Dyche says or thinks on this matter. Oh and it looks like I'm not the only who hates watching this dull style of football after all.

Me and ABC have been preaching this since day one, as the games go by, our words become clearer and clearer. The number of KRBFC and ABC followers are growing and growing. We see things before others. (I predicted no more than 5 points away from home after a couple of away games)

KRBFC: with all due respect, no, you haven't. You accused me of being a Defour stalker and having all kinds of Defour memorabilia in my bed room, to which I replied with my toilet paper remark.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:32 am

KRBFC wrote:I predicted no more than 5 points away from home after a couple of away games

More lies.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:47 am

When they say no player is bigger than a team or club, they have clearly never read the guff on this thread.

There are going to be a load more tears when some people realise he hasn't been listed on the all time greats going up around the ground either.

Still lets see which club the Belgian Messi joins this summer, there must be a whole host of clubs waiting to sign him rather than Qatar/China league sides.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:07 am

Vegas Claret wrote:who is our best player Riley ?

We have a player being touted for a move to a top four side for a fee in excess of £25m and we have another player who is being linked with a move to the Middle East. You tell me.

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:27 am

claretdom wrote:When they say no player is bigger than a team or club, they have clearly never read the guff on this thread.

There are going to be a load more tears when some people realise he hasn't been listed on the all time greats going up around the ground either.

Still lets see which club the Belgian Messi joins this summer, there must be a whole host of clubs waiting to sign him rather than Qatar/China league sides.

Claretdom: with respect, that is an irrelevant remark. Signing Defour was the first real coup for a club like Burnley. No-one ever said he was the Belgian Messi or anything like it, but he's certainly the most technically gifted player we have, who is by no means a slouch.

Everyone was euphoric after watching his first performance against Liverpool and the games thereafter, but suddenly after WBA he has become a peripheral figure. Why? Because he doesn't fit in a 4-4-2? Doesn't cut the mustard for me because SD never played him in a 4-4-2 away from home (or even at home). The only game he did was the cup game against Sunderland, in which he did well.

Shortly after his transfer to Burnley he was recalled to play for the Belgian national team (a collection of top players playing in top teams). He isn't called up now of course for the simple reason he hasn't been playing with Burnley.

It is a real shame people on here are now trying to belittle him by indicating his next transfer will be to an insignificant club, while he is still our player and still can make a valuable contribution to the side (which I expect is all we want) rather than persisting with an omission which (in my view) has reaped no dividends at all.

If he goes, and I fear he will unless he is given playing time and assurances for the next season, and he signs in Qatar or anywhere else for the money, I frankly wouldn't blame him. But remember he primarily came here for the challenge, not the money.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:31 am

Everyone was happy after we beat Liverpool, that is Burnley that beat Liverpool not Defour beat Liverpool.

3putt · Post by **3putt** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:36 am

Haven't had time to read through all of this thread, but I have to say at times I hate the Dyche brand of football, but love the success he has brought to us and that is the trade off I suppose.

I sincerely hope that if we survive, he decides to become a bit more adventurous and play a more progressive style of football. I hope that he tries to win games away from home and I hope that he considers the old adage the attack is the best from of defence (sometimes).

To me SD is brilliant at building a solid, organised "framework" not so much with the attacking side of things. In Defour we have a highly skilled player whom should of been starting every game when fit. A very dangerous striker in Gray, but he has had poor service all season and a very good left winger who looks very good when playing on the left not so much when playing on the right.

Hats off to SD, but i'm hoping he adpopts a more positive approach next season.

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:36 am

Rileybobs wrote:We have a player being touted for a move to a top four side for a fee in excess of £25m and we have another player who is being linked with a move to the Middle East. You tell me.

Ok, so now we've moved on to comparing different players to each other. I my opinion Keane is one of the best defenders in England and has the capabilities of playing at the very top and for his country.
Question is: do we have another MF player with the same capabilities of Defour?

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:38 am

claretdom wrote:Everyone was happy after we beat Liverpool, that is Burnley that beat Liverpool not Defour beat Liverpool.

Ok, that's correct.

Do you have some feedback on the training sessions?

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:40 am

Belgianclaret wrote:Ok, that's correct.

Do you have some feedback on the training sessions?

Yes it was too demanding for Bamford

ThinLizzy · Post by **ThinLizzy** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:42 am

It's rare for a player to come in from a foreign club and hit the ground running. Sometimes it takes a season to bed in. There is no doubt Defour is our most technically gifted player. We haven't seen the best of him this season I am sure, glimpses yes, but not his best. It's been a rough introduction to the Premier League with the way we play as well. I'd be hoping Dyche is having words with him about the summer and sticking with us to see who we bring in. If we can bring in players to bring out the best in him and help him flourish, I'd hope he stays. Defour was aware when he signed and even said when he signed that the main priority was to keep Burnley up. I think people read far too much into things sometimes.

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:47 am

ThinLizzy: let's hope so

vinrogue · Post by **vinrogue** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:48 am

Defour has shown enough technical talent in the games he has played to elevate him to our best technical player status. If for example Hazard played for Hartlepool v Orient in a one game transfer would his inclusion make Hartlepool world beaters? Would he even flourish and receive the ball enough to influence the game? This for me is the problem we have with Defour, we have to play to a certain system to get the best out of Defour or Defour has to play to the tried and trusted SD system despite it not being his natural game. I would play a team that complemented Defours strengths be that 4 5 1 or 4 3 3 and that is why SD has his job and I am just a supporter with limited team knowledge but a desire to see Defour start no matter what.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:00 am

There are two different arguments being made against Dyche here - firstly that he should have known Defour would struggle in a 442, so shouldnt gave signed him if he wanted to play 442. This is a hindsight argument which ignores the fact there is always some guess work around buying an overseas player who has only played in pedestrian leagues. Its other flaw is that it assumes Dyche always wanted to play 442 - which is wrong, he only reverted to it to get Gray into the team, and who knows how we'd have played this season had he signed the pacey winger he wanted last Adjust. Perhaps with Grosicki we'd have had the pace to play 451 without Gray this season

The second argument is that Defour is our best player so should play come hell or high water. This is clearly incompatible with the above because if he were that good, he'd hold is place in a 442. But it also ignores the circumstances in which he was signed - noone else wanted him. It also points Dyche aa a self harming, ignorant fool.

Finally, there's done fairly absurdly use of "evidence" here. To claim the evidence is Defour is fit enough involves assuming the manager keeps removing him to spite himself rather than using his professional judgment. Its absurd

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:09 am

Absurd?
On here?

I don't believe such things happen.

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:18 am

"Finally, there's done fairly absurdly use of "evidence" here. To claim the evidence is Defour is fit enough involves assuming the manager keeps removing him to spite himself rather than using his professional judgment. Its absurd"

Nothing to do with that: only to dispel the argument that is being stated on here as fact, namely that he isn't fit

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:18 am

Belgianclaret wrote:Ok, so now we've moved on to comparing different players to each other. I my opinion Keane is one of the best defenders in England and has the capabilities of playing at the very top and for his country.
Question is: do we have another MF player with the same capabilities of Defour?

All players are different, I wasn't making a comparison - I was responding to someone who said that Defour was our best player and that we should build the team around him. Well the very fact that he is struggling to get a start is evidence enough that he's not our best player. Most technically talented, perhaps, but not the best. There's far more to a player than being technically talented and this side relies more on physicality and intelligence off the ball than it does on technical ability.

We don't have another midfielder with the same capabilities of Defour but that isn't reason enough for him to be starting games. Defour doesn't have the same capabilities as Barton or Hendrick so your question is irrelevant.

I'm sure we'd all love to see more technical ability across the pitch but that switch can't be made overnight. We won the Championship and look like comfortably avoiding relegation this season with the 'framework' that now appears to be out of favour. That seems very fickle to me.

I was having a discussion with my brother during the Man Utd. game and we both agreed that Robbie Blake (my favourite ever claret) wouldn't get into this side. He'd be a luxury that we couldn't afford at this level. Defour is similar, this season at least. I'd love him to stay and be an integral part of the team next season but he's not done anything this season to suggest we should build a team around him.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:24 am

Belgianclaret wrote:"Finally, there's done fairly absurdly use of "evidence" here. To claim the evidence is Defour is fit enough involves assuming the manager keeps removing him to spite himself rather than using his professional judgment. Its absurd"

Nothing to do with that: only to dispel the argument that is being stated on here as fact, namely that he isn't fit

The fitness of our players is monitored thoroughly as is their physical performance during a game. Dyche and his staff have this information to hand. When people suggest that Defour isn't fit I don't think they're suggesting that he's out of shape - more that he struggles to cope with the physical demands of the Premier League for 90 minutes in a team that spends the majority of it without possession. It's obvious that we have players more suited to that particular role.

With regards to Defour's fitness it's also worth bearing in mind that in his last start he limped off in the first half, if my memory serves me correctly. For a team like us who are generally playing against superior opposition, it's not nice to work on a system throughout a week and then be forced into making a significant change to it 30 minutes into the game. As I've said in a previous post, with Defour Dyche doesn't know what he's going to get.

ThinLizzy · Post by **ThinLizzy** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:25 am

claretspice wrote: The second argument is that Defour is our best player so should play come hell or high water. This is clearly incompatible with the above because if he were that good, he'd hold is place in a 442. But it also ignores the circumstances in which he was signed - noone else wanted him. It also points Dyche aa a self harming, ignorant fool.

For me, he has talent but in no way is he comfortable in the system we employ currently. He's a bit of a luxury player in a sense. Hence why I suggested we wait to see the best of him with better players next year. It's as much the lack of ability of players around him as his own playing style.
We can plough the path of bringing in more players like Hendrick who are battlers but lack that extra quality, in which case we'd be better to cut our losses and sell Defour.
Or we say to him that there is a plan in place to bring in players who complement his style and allow him to express himself further up the field.
He's not that good that he is guaranteed a starting place in any formation because he seems a little unwilling or incapable of doing the hard work we have come to expect from a Dyche side.
He's a bit like Arfield in respect that he offers us something different but he's a liability as a defensive midfielder. Playing to his strengths needs players around him who can complement him. We simply don't have the players at our disposal to allow him to just go and play freely.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:32 am

KRBFC wrote:It looks like I have some support on this topic, I guess everybody who agrees with me is a supposed b**tard fan too. Steven Defour is the most talented footballer in the squad, I don't give a toss what Dyche says or thinks on this matter. Oh and it looks like I'm not the only who hates watching this dull style of football after all.

Me and ABC have been preaching this since day one, as the games go by, our words become clearer and clearer. The number of KRBFC and ABC followers are growing and growing. We see things before others. (I predicted no more than 5 points away from home after a couple of away games)

Oh and you've being doing so well over the past couple of days and now this...............

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:39 am

claretspice wrote:There are two different arguments being made against Dyche here - firstly that he should have known Defour would struggle in a 442, so shouldnt gave signed him if he wanted to play 442. This is a hindsight argument which ignores the fact there is always some guess work around buying an overseas player who has only played in pedestrian leagues. Its other flaw is that it assumes Dyche always wanted to play 442 - which is wrong, he only reverted to it to get Gray into the team, and who knows how we'd have played this season had he signed the pacey winger he wanted last Adjust. Perhaps with Grosicki we'd have had the pace to play 451 without Gray this season

The second argument is that Defour is our best player so should play come hell or high water. This is clearly incompatible with the above because if he were that good, he'd hold is place in a 442. But it also ignores the circumstances in which he was signed - noone else wanted him. It also points Dyche aa a self harming, ignorant fool.

Finally, there's done fairly absurdly use of "evidence" here. To claim the evidence is Defour is fit enough involves assuming the manager keeps removing him to spite himself rather than using his professional judgment. Its absurd

What makes you think Gray cant play in a 451?

For one he played that role very well for Brentford and Luton (granted at a lower level).
Two he is a very strong, quick player. He doesnt need to be a target man in the sense of Vokes. He is actually pretty clever at holding the ball up in the channels. Is very strong - probably stronger than Vokes or Barnes and quick enough to get away from players while support arrives.

Equally he doesnt HAVE to hold the ball up. If we play through balls for him to run onto then that is another way of playing a lone front man.

Plenty of slight players play up top on their own. Sanchez, Aguero, Firminho.

With the right system, Gray up top on his own would work.

ThinLizzy · Post by **ThinLizzy** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:58 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:What makes you think Gray cant play in a 451?

For one he played that role very well for Brentford and Luton (granted at a lower level).
Two he is a very strong, quick player. He doesnt need to be a target man in the sense of Vokes. He is actually pretty clever at holding the ball up in the channels. Is very strong - probably stronger than Vokes or Barnes and quick enough to get away from players while support arrives.

Equally he doesnt HAVE to hold the ball up. If we play through balls for him to run onto then that is another way of playing a lone front man.

Plenty of slight players play up top on their own. Sanchez, Aguero, Firminho.

With the right system, Gray up top on his own would work.

I agree to the extent I think he can with better players around him. Far too often he was running the channels waiting for support, which seemed an age to come against Man Utd. Mourinho pulled a tactical masterstroke in playing Fellaini against Barnes. I think Gray could work as a lone striker, if he had better players alongside him. Not so much the right system as having the right players and that is something we can concentrate on in the summer, assuming we stay up.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:23 am

It's clear that here are certain posters who appear to think Dyche is flawless and his methods are unquestionable.

Far from it.

We are stuck with 1 method of play which for 4 seasons hasn't changed a great deal. Sit in a defensive shape men behind the ball defending narrow. Once we win the ball back it's hoofed up to the target man for a flick on then The main striker picks up the pieces. Once that option is taken away we offer nothing. Absolute no alternatives. That is the managers fault, he sets the team up and the plans.

we do have some players with ability, JBG, Brady, Defour even Hendrick who can hurt good teams when allowed to do so. Unfortunately Dyche has them shackled in his framework.

Iv said for a long time that Dyche needs to be adaptable, he hasn't shown that he can be. Unfortunately he won't progress any further until he can adapt. There's many other flaws with Dyche aswell, but that's another topic for another day.

I agree with the sentiment that Dyche doesnt know what he is getting with Defour, which equates to Defour not following Dyches instructions to perfection. That's why he prefers more limited players like Boyd and Arfield.

I suspect we have already done enough to stay up this season but we need to change something for next as every man and their dog knows how we play and our likely starting line up. We are far too predictable therefore easy to counter tactically.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:29 am

So for 4 years all we have done it boot it long to a big man.... and it is only recently this has been worked out by all the other teams/clubs/managers we have faced and only now have they sussed it.

Who knew we were so advanced in our approach it took 4 years to stop it working.

Maybe it is the people who think the truth is we only ever play 1 way who have the issues not Dyche.

vinrogue · Post by **vinrogue** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:39 am

I don't buy into the argument that we are too predictable = a negative. If it was such a negative then Pullis and Big Sam would be found out and their teams relegated because they are too predictable = defend like your life depends on it, frustrate, foul, wind up and ultimately score from a set piece then repeat and add in some time wasting. However both Big Sam and Tony P are good at setting their teams up and getting the points the club needs to stay in the league so does this mean SD could join them two if he continues his current trend of play and we stay up? UTC

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:43 am

Thats exactly all we have done for the past 4 years.
It clearly never worked the last time we were in the EPL either. It seems to be a good formula for the championship but we have trancended from there.

I'm sure you could enlighten us to our other tactical approaches then Dom?

I mean for example Dyches wonderful use of substitutions to change our set up in the middle of a game? Or does he only use them when a player is injured or with 5/10 mins to go? Unless it's Defour of course who gets hooked for not being a "boyd"

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:46 am

Right_winger wrote:Thats exactly all we have done for the past 4 years.
It clearly never worked the last time we were in the EPL either. It seems to be a good formula for the championship but we have trancended from there.

I'm sure you could enlighten us to our other tactical approaches then Dom?

I mean for example Dyches wonderful use of substitutions to change our set up in the middle of a game? Or does he only use them when a player is injured or with 5/10 mins to go? Unless it's Defour of course who gets hooked for not being a "boyd"

Ten wins at home?

You don't win that many games in the Prem by booting the ball up field.

We scored two fantastic goal against Liverpool, for example, likewise the opener v Everton. A great goal against Bournemouth.

Need I go on?

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:54 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:Oh and you've being doing so well over the past couple of days and now this...............

You will become a KRBFC convert shortly

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:59 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:What makes you think Gray cant play in a 451?

For one he played that role very well for Brentford and Luton (granted at a lower level).
Two he is a very strong, quick player. He doesnt need to be a target man in the sense of Vokes. He is actually pretty clever at holding the ball up in the channels. Is very strong - probably stronger than Vokes or Barnes and quick enough to get away from players while support arrives.

Equally he doesnt HAVE to hold the ball up. If we play through balls for him to run onto then that is another way of playing a lone front man.

Plenty of slight players play up top on their own. Sanchez, Aguero, Firminho.

With the right system, Gray up top on his own would work.

Spot on but ClaretSpice knows best. Away at Leicester the 451 with Gray upfront didn't work not because of Gray but because of Dyche. He set the team up to play on the edge of our own box, isolated Gray and we just wacked it forward and hoped he won the battle against the 3 or 4 Leicester defenders. I don't think Spice understands there is different ways of playing in different systems.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:01 pm

vinrogue wrote:I don't buy into the argument that we are too predictable = a negative. If it was such a negative then Pullis and Big Sam would be found out and their teams relegated because they are too predictable = defend like your life depends on it, frustrate, foul, wind up and ultimately score from a set piece then repeat and add in some time wasting. However both Big Sam and Tony P are good at setting their teams up and getting the points the club needs to stay in the league so does this mean SD could join them two if he continues his current trend of play and we stay up? UTC

Its a negative way to play football, who wants to see their team foul, frustrate and hoping to nick a set piece goal. Timewasting from kick off, its just embarrassing. Its a horrible thing to watch. Btw I think you've downplayed the football played by Allardyce sides, its far more advanced than this guff we see.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:15 pm

See posts 212 and 222 for intelligent analysis of this issue.

We get you that hate Dyche and what he's doing, as does ablue, no problem with that if that's what interests you. You've been lucky - and delighted, I guess- that our recent results have led one or two Nervous Nancys to join your odd little throng.
If we had another two points on the board, the unaninimous verdict on here would be that you're talking out of your habitually negative backside and that Dyche - this season - has done exactly what was required.
When we get them, you'll look a fool. Meanwhile, keep the lack of faith....

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:26 pm

I also think Defour is probably our most talented player, however, he has issues whether it be injuries or attitude, there has to be some reason he does not get into the starting 11, as for players wasting time from the kick off I would say that you could only be on about 1 player and not the whole 11, so if you believe they all do it that is incorrect, we don't have masses of talent in the squad, just a bunch of lads who work their socks off every game, there are probably around 6-7 teams in this league who have one player alone valued as much as our entire squad, with what SD has to work with he has done an excellent job to get us where we are today, I was there the last day of the season in 1976 to see us get beat by Coventry we were already relegated if I remember correctly and never in a hundred years would I have expected it would take 38 years to get back to the top, whether we stay up this season will be sorted in the next 4 games whether Defour plays his part or not, a Tradesman is only as good as the tools he has to work with, I believe SD has one that needs to be refurbished or discarded and new ones bought for next season.

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:30 pm

Defour is becoming one of these players who gets better and better the longer he's out of the team. I'm in the camp saying he should play, but not necessarily because I think he'll prove to be the difference between relegation and staying up, but more for the fact it'll signal a change. We've won one game in 11 and we can break that down however we like, but it's a fact and it's not good enough if we want to stay in this league. Yes we've had a tough run at home but we played Sunderland, Boro, Swansea and Hull away in this run. One of those should have been a win. We just play too cautiously and that's the issue.

It's ok inviting teams onto you in the Championship as most of the teams don't have a great amount of quality so you can soak up the pressure and hit them on the break. It's not really that way in the PL. You might be able to do that every so often but you need to take the game to the opposition more. That's where Defour comes in due to his ability to pass the ball. He has a speed of thought much quicker than the rest of our squad. He moves the ball first time most of the time he receives it. That makes a difference in this league. If we want to play as a counter attacking team we need to have players who can start the counter attacks off as quickly as possible. Your midfielders can't afford 2, 3, 4 touches before releasing the ball.

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:42 pm

Interesting thread (personal remarks left aside).

For the record, I respect & appreciate all your views, even those which do not agree with my superior knowledge

Guess we all want our team to do well, so let's hope we get the needed points on the board quickly & we soon get to see Defour on the pitch again very soon.

ThinLizzy · Post by **ThinLizzy** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:03 pm

vinrogue wrote:I don't buy into the argument that we are too predictable = a negative. If it was such a negative then Pullis and Big Sam would be found out and their teams relegated because they are too predictable = defend like your life depends on it, frustrate, foul, wind up and ultimately score from a set piece then repeat and add in some time wasting. However both Big Sam and Tony P are good at setting their teams up and getting the points the club needs to stay in the league so does this mean SD could join them two if he continues his current trend of play and we stay up? UTC

We are too predictable. That's because we don't have the players nor finances at our disposal to initiate a change in style. For me. Dyche makes and has always made some tactical errors and substitute errors. He is known for making bizarre substitutions or making them a good 20 minutes late, when a blind man on a galloping horse can see what is happening.
In fairness to him. He has limited options as we're still the nucleus of a Championship squad. Pulis and Allardyce have the option to spunk money on a problem if it arises. He can only work with what he has at his disposal.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:19 pm

Belgianclaret wrote:"Finally, there's done fairly absurdly use of "evidence" here. To claim the evidence is Defour is fit enough involves assuming the manager keeps removing him to spite himself rather than using his professional judgment. Its absurd"

Nothing to do with that: only to dispel the argument that is being stated on here as fact, namely that he isn't fit

Its not a question of bring fit or not, its about being fit enough. And whilst you're right that we are all speculating without hard evidence, theres an awful lot more evidence that he's not as fit as Dyche wants - injury record, lack of completed 90 minutes etx- than to suggest he is fit enough. Its a pretty fair extrapoloation.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:22 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:See posts 212 and 222 for intelligent analysis of this issue.

We get you that hate Dyche and what he's doing, as does ablue, no problem with that if that's what interests you. You've been lucky - and delighted, I guess- that our recent results have led one or two Nervous Nancys to join your odd little throng.
If we had another two points on the board, the unaninimous verdict on here would be that you're talking out of your habitually negative backside and that Dyche - this season - has done exactly what was required.
When we get them, you'll look a fool. Meanwhile, keep the lack of faith....

I will look a fool once we stay up despite me saying we'll stay up? Hahahha makes sense

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:35 pm

claretspice wrote:Its not a question of bring fit or not, its about being fit enough. And whilst you're right that we are all speculating without hard evidence, theres an awful lot more evidence that he's not as fit as Dyche wants - injury record, lack of completed 90 minutes etx- than to suggest he is fit enough. Its a pretty fair extrapoloation.

He was thrown in immediately for the first game against Liverpool and coped pretty well during 70 mins, this without any benefit of SD's military training. Past injuries besides, who's to say he is not fitter now than at the start? I would suggest it being otherwise, hence my doubts regarding this issue. Therefore, it does appear to come down to the framework argument, with which I - respectfully - do not agree.

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:38 pm

You mention that you don't know you, then suggest something, then you express a doubt, then say it appears but despite all this you disagree with Dyche despite clearly knowing nothing about the situation.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:40 pm

Belgianclaret wrote:He was thrown in immediately for the first game against Liverpool and coped pretty well during 70 mins, this without any benefit of SD's military training. Past injuries besides, who's to say he is not fitter now than at the start? I would suggest it being otherwise, hence my doubts regarding this issue. Therefore, it does appear to come down to the framework argument, with which I - respectfully - do not agree.

Starting a player that you know is not capable of not lasting the 90 minutes (as evidence suggests) is severely restricting. It only leaves 2 possible substitutions for tactical changes and is relying on players not picking up an injury.

As I've mentioned in another thread, every other player in our squad, with the possible exception of Vokes - who's also out of favour, is capable of playing the 90 minutes.

Reecey1987 · Post by **Reecey1987** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:43 pm

Code: Select all

Belgianclaret wrote:He was thrown in immediately for the first game against Liverpool and coped pretty well during 70 mins, this without any benefit of SD's military training. Past injuries besides, who's to say he is not fitter now than at the start? I would suggest it being otherwise, hence my doubts regarding this issue. Therefore, it does appear to come down to the framework argument, with which I - respectfully - do not agree.

I agree its all good having 11 grafters on the pitch but surely its also good having flair players on the pitch that gives you something different . Look at berbatov he wasnt exactly a work horse but look at his goal scoring record it speaks for itself really . Dyche needs to play defour if were going to create anything . Our midfield is so predictable and teams are starting to suss us out

scamander · Post by **scamander** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:45 pm

Next season we won't have the luxury of most teams coming to Turf Moor expecting 3 points, they might sit in for a draw meaning our away form will have to improve. I expect that Dyche has learned a great deal about what he's done right this season so I'm optimistic that we'll be more adaptable next season. Fingers crossed anyhow!

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:50 pm

Belgianclaret wrote:He was thrown in immediately for the first game against Liverpool and coped pretty well during 70 mins, this without any benefit of SD's military training. Past injuries besides, who's to say he is not fitter now than at the start? I would suggest it being otherwise, hence my doubts regarding this issue. Therefore, it does appear to come down to the framework argument, with which I - respectfully - do not agree.

Is that the best evidence you have? The sporting world is littered with examples of sportsmen who made terrific debuts but then once the adrenalin had worn off and opponents had had the opportunity to analyse and identify his weaknesses, never really replicated it. And as you rightly said, he only had 70 minutes in his legs then. Whats to say he's not fitter now? The fact he's not finished many games, primarily, and perhaps also the fact he has lost large chunks of training as well as games to injury.

Incidentally, the only folk raising the framework as an argument on this thread, so far as I can see, are those in your camp. To be frank, I'm not even sure what it means - it appears to have become a prejorative term and taken out of any context. Every team has a tactical set up. Weve used at least 3 different ones just this season, with varying degrees of success - one of which was formulated seemingly to get Defour into the team.

Decades · Post by **Decades** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:22 pm

For me the framework is about defensive discipline and positional sense both defensive and offensive. I believe that Defour is relatively lacking in defensive ability and defensive discipline and positional sense and this is why he has failed to get game time. Maybe he also lacks the drive and determination to achieve the levels required. Barton and Marney have both been superior in this respect and Hendrick has improved in this area and is currently better than Defour.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:36 pm

claretspice wrote:Is that the best evidence you have? The sporting world is littered with examples of sportsmen who made terrific debuts but then once the adrenalin had worn off and opponents had had the opportunity to analyse and identify his weaknesses, never really replicated it. And as you rightly said, he only had 70 minutes in his legs then. Whats to say he's not fitter now? The fact he's not finished many games, primarily, and perhaps also the fact he has lost large chunks of training as well as games to injury.

Incidentally, the only folk raising the framework as an argument on this thread, so far as I can see, are those in your camp. To be frank, I'm not even sure what it means - it appears to have become a prejorative term and taken out of any context. Every team has a tactical set up. Weve used at least 3 different ones just this season, with varying degrees of success - one of which was formulated seemingly to get Defour into the team.

More complete rubbish, Defour hasn't just had a good debut he was excellent against Hull and Watford, was that adrenaline too?
You keep banging this "he cant finish a game" crap, how is he supposed to finish the game and play 90 minutes if Dyche keeps taking him off? Your whole point on this topic is based off guesswork like most of your long posts on this forum, guessing and presuming.