Job Change

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:51 pm

I'm putting this out there to garner some advice from this vast pool of information and intelligence.

I'm thinking of changing job but I'm not sure whether I actually want to or not. Or whether I have some sort of misguided loyalty. I went against the advice of my friends last year (though I welcomed the insight), and I'm now wondering whether I made the correct choice.

I've been in my current role now for nearly 4 and a half years since leaving uni, and whilst its been enjoyable for the most part there hasn't be the climb up the ladder that was outlined or that I was expecting. Certain statements were made 4 and a half years ago (that wern't promises - nothings a promise in business anyway) that haven't materialised. These being access to the company share scheme and a contribution towards a car.

I floated my CV on the internet last year and received a very good response. I had the offer of one job that ticked all the boxes (closer to home, healthcare, pension, bonus scheme, path to Professional Accreditation) none of which my current company offered.

It was only when I handed in my resignation did certain benefits suddenly become available. I was talked round to staying through various statements and promises.

Now 12 months on, apart from a slightly raised salary and pension, nothing has changed. Grand talk of joint ventures and rolling in money have yet again failed to materialise.

Again i'm faced with the choice of joining another company offering professional accreditation schemes and better prospects.

I want to better myself but I don't want to appear to be a mercenary. Money is important, but the professional accreditation scheme I believe is worth more in the long run. Even taking a pay cut, with everything taken into consideration, I'm only £9 per month worse off.

Apologies for the ramble, I'd just like to hear the thoughts of my fellow Clarets.

Thanks

CE

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:52 pm

Get out of there.

RocketLawnChair · Post by **RocketLawnChair** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:53 pm

ClaretCallCentreOperator

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:54 pm

Don't try to write jokes for a living.

Make sure you have a LinkedIn account, and use it for job hunting/networking.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:55 pm

I've been in that boat. Get gone mate.

Sounds like you could get a better job with better perks anyway, but also consider your own happiness - you can't put a price on that - and it sounds like you're miserable in the current job.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:55 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Don't try to write jokes for a living.

yeah but that one was good IT. It would be a fine addition to any Christmas Cracker

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:56 pm

ClaretEngineer wrote:yeah but that one was good IT. It would be a fine addition to any Christmas Cracker

The thought of that has ruined my Christmas already.

Make sure you have a LinkedIn account, and use it for job hunting/networking.

Dawlishclaret · Post by **Dawlishclaret** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:00 pm

Staying in your first job for too long and possibly not being challenged further could possibly lead to you stagnating. Getting professional accreditation is a big plus when you are looking at a longer term career plan. If the right job comes along go for it. Good luck.

SammyBoy · Post by **SammyBoy** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:01 pm

If you're viewed as a mercenary after spending 4.5 years with the same company then Christ knows what that makes me. We must be a similar age as I left Uni and began full time work at the same time as you (May 2013) and I'm now on my 5th company and haven't stayed anywhere longer than 15 months. It's a common argument that you need to be seen to be showing loyalty but I find modern day business culture is quite throwaway, none of the employers I've applied to have ever mentioned that I don't seem to stick around for long. To answer your question I'd say go for it unless you really love your current working environment, but from my perspective it doesn't sound like a great place to work if they're only offering you opportunity when it looks like you might be leaving. My experience tells me the best way to get paid more is to move around, I now earn over double when I was being paid back in 2013 and I very much doubt I'd have achieved that had I stuck it out at my first company, as commendable as that might have seemed.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:02 pm

Ah the classic give you some sweeteners to stay ploy.

Ultimately if you want the Professional Accreditation the you will have to move on by the sounds of it.

£9 a month worse off just means you'll need to cut back on the Twix's at TM on matchday

Long term thinking is the best way and short term pain so to speak is sometimes the best option.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:03 pm

To add to the above. I've had a quick glance through the Company Accounts over the last three years and the cash in the bank has gone from £150k down to below £10K.

The result of this was the company focus on the Joint Venture I mentioned, and the expectation that the other company was to provide the other half in terms of man power, workshop and assembly facility and funding. That company has failed on their side.

In fact my company was in such a perilous state that we had to be bailed out by the other companys director.

Its the prospects of the joint venture that have kept me here (rightly or wrongly), being in the right place at the right time so to speak. But three years since it started the two companies have almost gone bust.

There are talks of an outside investor putting money in by the end of the month (october), and the Devil on my shoulder is saying hang about till then to see what happens.

But the cynic (and for good reason) in me just thinks we'll get to November 1st and it'll be the exact same scenario again. Like a recurring nightmare.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:04 pm

Get yourself gone, better to get yourself sorted first before you're left with nothing.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:10 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Ah the classic give you some sweeteners to stay ploy.

Ultimately if you want the Professional Accreditation the you will have to move on by the sounds of it.

£9 a month worse off just means you'll need to cut back on the Twix's at TM on matchday

Long term thinking is the best way and short term pain so to speak is sometimes the best option.

Part of me is too understanding about the plight of others. Maybe i should have demanded I get the extra benefits etc, but I had one eye on the other members of the company. In that its better to we all have a job than none of us.

I know see that view to be wholly commendable but utterly out of touch with real business practice.

I've felt it almost an obligation that I stay to support everyone else.

Thanks for your input so far, your feedback is very much the same as my friends 12 months ago.

I have an interview lined up for Monday after work and another on Thursday. I had thought of cancelling both and just sticking at it, but after your insights I shall not be doing that.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:13 pm

If all you want is the Professional Accreditation, you could ask your current employers to sort this out.
If you don't think it will happen even if you ask then dip your toes in the water and see what's out there.

You've done the right thing in thinking about others, but time to think about yourself.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:16 pm

ClaretEngineer wrote:I have an interview lined up for Monday after work and another on Thursday. I had thought of cancelling both and just sticking at it, but after your insights I shall not be doing that.

I can't really help on the job front, as I've been self employed since I left Uni. But I'd go to the interviews anyway - if they offer you the job(s), you can still turn them down if you decide to stay where you are.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:16 pm

Sidney1st wrote:If all you want is the Professional Accreditation, you could ask your current employers to sort this out.
If you don't think it will happen even if you ask then dip your toes in the water and see what's out there.

You've done the right thing in thinking about others, but time to think about yourself.

Its not all that I want, but it means I'll that I've made something of myself and will have access to better roles in later life.

I don't just want to be a Design Engineer / 3D modeller all my career. I mean I'm sh*t hot at it but I want to move up to the next stage.

There hasn't been the training here and progress to even consider PA here (IEng / CEng status).

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:22 pm

ClaretEngineer wrote:Its not all that I want, but it means I'll that I've made something of myself and will have access to better roles in later life.

I don't just want to be a Design Engineer / 3D modeller all my career. I mean I'm sh*t hot at it but I want to move up to the next stage.

There hasn't been the training here and progress to even consider PA here (IEng / CEng status).

I'm the same with the McLaren job I want, I want to feel like I've done something and gain access to the next level of jobs after that one.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:23 pm

Leave, and leave now.

Companies that don't keep their promises to you are breaking the contract between employers and employees.

You are a valued resource, don't let them treat you like ****.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:29 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Leave, and leave now.

Companies that don't keep their promises to you are breaking the contract between employers and employees.

You are a valued resource, don't let them treat you like ****.

There's nothing in writing. They are comments that have been made over time in order to pacify, I imagine.

I was on a 2013 graduate salary up until last year with zero benefits. It wears a person down thinking that's all they are worth especially when other employees enjoy greater benefits. I understand that why should folk pay more if they don't have to? I suppose it's as much my inability to confront the situation as it it is theirs to recognize the value of an employee.

Again thank you for your words of wisdom.

No Ney Never · Post by **No Ney Never** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:17 pm

Given what you've posted, my opinion is that you should look to move on.
You need to rid yourself of any kind of sense of loyalty to your current employer and put your own career path first.
Additionally, the business you work for doesn't sound very well run. I would seek employment in a more viable operation if you wish to further yourself.
Good luck.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:27 pm

Simply put, if the company promises to you verbally to do something, and then doesn't do it, then they will do it again and again and again.

I had a horrible five years in the NHS, and seeing my co-workers (who unlike me, didn't have a long term plan with the job) who'd been there longer than you've probably been alive constantly treated like rubbish because there was nowhere else for them to go made me realise you can only look agter yourself in a job.

criminalclaret · Post by **criminalclaret** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:40 pm

One thing I have learned is everything down on paper. And I mean everything.

So when you enter into talks, and they promise you the world, you respond by saying "That sounds wonderful, and when the contract with the those changes are presented to I'll happily sign that". That is when you assess the how seriously they take you. Then you can keep asking for the contract, and it they don't deliver hen leave.

A friend of mine was a yacht sales guy, and he was fed up where he was. A rival company waded in and offered him a a part in a new venture. The current company begged him not to go, promised him the world.....and never delivered...massive chance for him and he way livid he passed it up for some jokers.

In my current job, the salary was a bit lower than other rival companies. But I said when I was offered the job that I liked the company and I would take the job providing I had a pay review at the end of my probation and then another one every year after I was at the company. And I got them to write that into the contract as a deal-breaker. They respected my negotiation and we have a positive relationship moving forward, and I have legal backup should they not deliver.

It doesn't make you bad for insist on something on writing, they do that as a company every day and you need to treat yourself as a company also in your dealings. You don't have to be arrogant, and you will come accross as rude. But you will be seen as respecting your own confidence in your skills and they also know you won't be pushed over in future

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:53 pm

criminalclaret wrote:One thing I have learned is everything down on paper. And I mean everything.

So when you enter into talks, and they promise you the world, you respond by saying "That sounds wonderful, and when the contract with the those changes are presented to I'll happily sign that". That is when you assess the how seriously they take you. Then you can keep asking for the contract, and it they don't deliver hen leave.

A friend of mine was a yacht sales guy, and he was fed up where he was. A rival company waded in and offered him a a part in a new venture. The current company begged him not to go, promised him the world.....and never delivered...massive chance for him and he way livid he passed it up for some jokers.

In my current job, the salary was a bit lower than other rival companies. But I said when I was offered the job that I liked the company and I would take the job providing I had a pay review at the end of my probation and then another one every year after I was at the company. And I got them to write that into the contract as a deal-breaker. They respected my negotiation and we have a positive relationship moving forward, and I have legal backup should they not deliver.

It doesn't make you bad for insist on something on writing, they don't as a company every day and you need to treat yourself as a company also

I still haven't had my ''improved contract'' paperwork, which I supposed to have before last Christmas.

There's also the Christmas Bonus that I have a gripe about. Fair enough a bonus is a bonus, but every year I get an email saying:

''You will see a bonus in your salary this month for all the hard work you have put in this year, but as you know, funds are still low. This will be bumped up in the future when cash flow improves.

Happy Christmas & a Merry New Year!''

In fact the salary increase wasn't immediate, it was 2 months before I received it, and then I had to remind them about it when my salary went in that they hadn't raised it.

I still havent had my private healthcare either.

These are all things I will mention when the time comes.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:06 pm

I hope your job change goes well. I was only joking earlier. You don't really have to eat a dick. Have a good weekend.

criminalclaret · Post by **criminalclaret** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:36 pm

@ClaretEngineer

These are all big signs of how a company sees and respects their employees. Would that be allowable to one if another company who had dealings with them have them that excuse to not pay them? Not a chance, they'd be taken to court.

You sound young enough to learn from this misadventure and possibly (and I have no idea of your commitments) have less pressure to stay there. And I hope that it works out well for you at a new company.

Take the experience with you and when you enter into your next job and contracts, and things get discussed, get it written down on paper. Honestly, it's literally the only way to have leverage.

Multimillion pound football signings were made with a gentleman's agreement, getting your requirements and the company's down on paper is the only way to become valued and give you confidence in your abilities.

Best of luck in whatever you do....and get it in black and white!!!!

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:48 pm

I would of been gone when the first carrots dangled didn't materialise.
You need to look after number 1. Very few people in business, if any, would show an employee the levels of loyalty you have shown your current company

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:00 pm

Its only a very small company, 6 people in total. 2 Directors, 1 Senior Design Engineer, 2 Design Engineers and the Secretary.

So you see the limited scope for progression. That said there's no real drive to establish a real market presence (20 years of trading on good reputation) and take the company forward. They seem to be counting on this JV to improve the fortunes, yet without any investment to do so. All talk and no action.

As a comparison the company offering Professional Accreditation only has 3 employee's...yet are looking to take the company forward now by making themselves visible. The use of Social Media being at the forefront of their strategy. They are hoping to add another 5 engineers in the next 24 months.

It sounds an ideal time to get in and take this company forward and make a name for myself.

The company I work for seems tinpot, Del Boy in comparison.

Its a real wrangle for me as I don't like to disappoint people, but its become increasingly clear that I'm very far down pecking order.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:03 pm

The fact that your current employer only offers these things in a last ditch incentive not to leave means that they probably don't appreciate you enough. If you're finding other jobs with more perks then I say go for it. It's important to feel valued at work.

Just to add, I certainly don't think it's mercenary. I'm guessing you're fairly young with the reference to uni. It's expected you'll change jobs several times at a young age as you find something that really fits. Hell, I switched jobs every year for years after uni.

JegunClaret · Post by **JegunClaret** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:30 pm

I am 70 years old and the only advice I can give you is this, if you are not happy then find something else. If you are young enough there is always something. Remember, money is not everything, important I know, but not everything.
You must have a happy life!

levraiclaret · Post by **levraiclaret** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:24 pm

If you have been let down by your employer move on. If the new employer doesn't come through move on again. Take the risks whilst you are young. I am dining in the Windmill, if you want to talk this through further l can meet you here tomorrow. I am just retired and can share my experiences.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:36 pm

Do it and don't look back. Your current Company (like all others) will show no loyalty to you if they needed to trim the workforce.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:06 pm

levraiclaret wrote:If you have been let down by your employer move on. If the new employer doesn't come through move on again. Take the risks whilst you are young. I am dining in the Windmill, if you want to talk this through further l can meet you here tomorrow. I am just retired and can share my experiences.

Enjoy the Windmill, it’s been spot on last couple of times I’ve been. I’ll happily drop in for a beverage tomorrow.

levraiclaret · Post by **levraiclaret** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:57 pm

It was good, lunchtime any good? I will wear my BFC polo shirt.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:18 pm

You have years ahead if you. If you stay, it is because they have coughed up again. That also means that they don't want to lose you.

That should signal that if you leave, you will be wanted and prove yourself to the new company, because that's what you do.

Have the confidence to make the best decision for you, because you can back it up, no matter what you decide.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:23 pm

levraiclaret wrote:It was good, lunchtime any good? I will wear my BFC polo shirt.

Sounds good to me, 12:30 okay?

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:28 pm

Be a mercenary dont be frightened of jumping ship. No corporate has any loyalty to you.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:29 pm

IanMcL wrote:You have years ahead if you. If you stay, it is because they have coughed up again. That also means that they don't want to lose you.

That should signal that if you leave, you will be wanted and prove yourself to the new company, because that's what you do.

Have the confidence to make the best decision for you, because you can back it up, no matter what you decide.

I sought my dads counsel last year, as he’d been through similar when he was a young man. He did the same and took the money, but just like him, I soon realised that more money for me doesn’t fix the problems in the company. It seemed like did make the right decision at the time.

I believe these to be good guys but they are also business men, and if being their company I can understand their standpoint. However that said there has to be a point where someone else takes the hit other than me.

It seems to be a bit of clique (sort of like the NWA in Hot Fuzz) where all these deals have been struck and im left to just accept whatever because the company is performing badly.

There are some many facets to this, that as I’m mentioning them I’m leaving myself no other option but to make like a tree...(and leave !)

Oshkoshclaret · Post by **Oshkoshclaret** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:41 pm

Get out of there. You owe them nothing.

COBBLE · Post by **COBBLE** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:49 pm

I wouldn't give advice about a particular job at a particular time. There are usually pros and cons. What I would advise is identifying
the person, professional, that you want to be. Then do everything you can: job experience, education, life learning, trying things, reading autobiographies, that will teach you to be that person. The opportunities will then come, often not when you expected.

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:15 am

Ignore the rest, better the devil you know. Stay put. Doesnt look good switching jobs, affects how companies perceive you.

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:24 am

Saxoman wrote:Ignore the rest, better the devil you know. Stay put. Doesnt look good switching jobs, affects how companies perceive you.

Here he is, the expert on working!

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:08 am

Unfortunately these days there's very little loyalty in the workplace, from both the employer and employee.

From my experience you have to look after yourself/family first. What is the reason you go to work? I'm going to assume for money ( obviously ) experience, social enhancement and progression. You have to ask yourself what is your main driver and how important is it that you achieve your goals?

If your happy plodding along in your comfort zone by all means stay put.

From the sounds of it you want to progress, seems to me like you've already made your decision but are perhaps subconsciously apprehensive of taking that step?

One piece of advice I will give you is leave on the best terms possible, never ever burn any bridges as you may need to cross that bridge again in the future.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:09 am

Flatline wrote:Here he is, the expert on working!

You appear to have made a spelling mistake, you've used or instead of an.

levraiclaret · Post by **levraiclaret** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:17 am

ClaretEngineer wrote:Sounds good to me, 12:30 okay?

Yes that's good.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:31 am

I had an interview after work last night. Nice chaps, however there's no formal structure for the professional accreditation and the set up of the company is very much the same as the one I'm currently with.

So as nice as they were, this opportunity just wasn't the one.

I have an interview on Thursday for a firm in Coventry in the automotive sector, and potentially a top quality role (with a structured Accreditation path) in the rail industry.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:22 am

I've worked for huge companies and small companies, but when push comes to shove you're just a number. You owe them no loyalty whatsoever, and you working for them is purely a transaction. They pay you a salary you accepted for a certain standard of work you agreed to provide.

It sounds like you've made your mind up already anyway, and if you're still not happy now, 12 months on from your first bout of itchy feet, it's definitely time to jump ship. Don't waste any time either, because before you know it you'll be stuck with them and then seen to be unambitious!

levraiclaret · Post by **levraiclaret** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:29 pm

ClaretEngineer wrote:I had an interview after work last night. Nice chaps, however there's no formal structure for the professional accreditation and the set up of the company is very much the same as the one I'm currently with.

So as nice as they were, this opportunity just wasn't the one.

I have an interview on Thursday for a firm in Coventry in the automotive sector, and potentially a top quality role (with a structured Accreditation path) in the rail industry.

Good luck tomorrow.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:54 pm

Good luck and when you are sure you are leaving test them by letting them know you are looking. See what they think of you then.
Bugger the burning bridges statement above; if they've crapped on you tell them. It's highly unlikely you'll go back again

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:50 am

Dunno

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:56 am

Thanks for all your valuable insights and kind words.

The directors were at management meeting yesterday with the other parties involved in the Joint Venture. I'm well versed in the false optimism that we usually receive after these meetings.