Death Penalty for drug dealers

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Bin Ont Turf
Posts: 11146
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:38 am
Been Liked: 5231 times
Has Liked: 825 times
Location: On top of a pink elephant riding to the Democratic Republic of Congo

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:57 am

AndrewJB wrote:What is your better idea?
Not dealing with dodgepots from Asia or South America for one.

Unless we can start producing heroin in somewhere like Lincolnshire or Kent, then it's ridiculous to think we can give it out free to addicts.

Why do you think that it wouldn't be highly taxed like other addictive stuff like alcohol and tobacco?

I propose that we neuter bad mother's and fire sh1te father's out of a cannon over Flamborough Head.
This user liked this post: PLTMGMBJ

TsarBomba
Posts: 2272
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:51 pm
Been Liked: 1474 times
Has Liked: 418 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by TsarBomba » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:31 am

Wile E Coyote wrote:don't patronise, I live in the north, and also encountered first hand the issues you recognise in london. My opinion hasn't changed one iota.
You’re happy for drug dealers to be killed, so quite clearly, you don’t know the reality of the situation and haven’t encountered the first hand issues, or else you wouldn’t have that opinion.

When you’ve had to scrape a teenager off the floor, give them CPR, and had to tell a family member that a loved one has died, get back to me.

PLTMGMBJ
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:19 pm
Been Liked: 15 times
Has Liked: 13 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by PLTMGMBJ » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:43 am

TsarBomba wrote:You’re happy for drug dealers to be killed, so quite clearly, you don’t know the reality of the situation and haven’t encountered the first hand issues, or else you wouldn’t have that opinion.

When you’ve had to scrape a teenager off the floor, give them CPR, and had to tell a family member that a loved one has died, get back to me.
Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. I''d love to break the news! Drugs destroy lives. I wouldn't even bother giving CPR to a drug dealer or user. There is no excuse for using drugs whatsoever. First world problems and all that. Anybody who disagrees with a stance of zero tolerance needs to give their head a wobble. That said, Americans in general don't seem capable of governing themselves.

Mattster
Posts: 2015
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:02 am
Been Liked: 501 times
Has Liked: 188 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by Mattster » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:17 am

@AndrewJB bit of a hole in your suggestion.

You say if you give it out for free to addicts then no one will be able to make money selling it to non-addicts but plenty of prescription drugs get sold on the street. Do you honestly think no non-addicts are going to want to try it? Especially when told "Don't worry, if you get addicted you'll get it for free". It wouldn't end the problem, though would probably improve the status quo.

Wouldn't work with cigarettes, in fact I think that would potentially make the situation worse since cigarettes are so freely and (relatively cheaply) available in neighbouring countries. It would almost incentivise getting addicted.

Dy1geo
Posts: 879
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:17 pm
Been Liked: 223 times
Has Liked: 68 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by Dy1geo » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:29 am

I have no issue dealers of crystal meth and crack facing the death penalty. I fall into the camp of knowing what the punishment is so don’t moan and make excuses if you get caught. Comments were made about Singapore there laws are based around this attitude they have strict punishments for dropping litter and using chewing gum, resulting in it being one of the cleanest places in the world.
Crystal Meth and Crack ruin lives, the OP cleverly mentioned drug dealers, they have to be categorised from the types of drugs they are dealing cannabis is completely different to Crystal Meth and Crack.
Finally we have to ask ourselves what kind of civilised society allows the taker of one live to walk free again to then possibly bump into the parents of the life they took.

groove
Posts: 1358
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:26 pm
Been Liked: 362 times
Has Liked: 619 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by groove » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:40 am

PLTMGMBJ wrote:Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. I''d love to break the news! Drugs destroy lives. I wouldn't even bother giving CPR to a drug dealer or user. There is no excuse for using drugs whatsoever. First world problems and all that. Anybody who disagrees with a stance of zero tolerance needs to give their head a wobble. That said, Americans in general don't seem capable of governing themselves.
I'm a recovering drug addict. There years clean now. I'm grateful the paramedics did indeed give me CPR when I was unconscious in the bus station toilets a number of years ago. I went to rehab, still attend Narcotics Anonymous meetings and work for the Amy Winehouse foundation, going into schools doing groups with kids regarding drug/alcohol abuse, bullying, peer pressure etc. Your comments are from the 70's. Addiction is an illness. Would you refuse CPR to a cancer sufferer too?

Chobulous
Posts: 2132
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:27 am
Been Liked: 956 times
Has Liked: 11 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by Chobulous » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:56 am

The concept of prescribing heroin or any other opioid for that matter seems OK at first thought, but I think you have to give it a bit more thought.
My understanding is that, as addiction progresses, the addict has to take increasingly stronger doses more and more often, in order to achieve the desired effect. That being the case, the GP prescribing the drug has to either go along with that cycle and ultimately kill his patient with ever increasing doses or he / she has to try to ration the dosage to maintain some measure of control. I suspect that, when this rationing is in place, many addicts would then start to look for an alternative source of supply and we would be back to square one.
This user liked this post: Anonymous

Sidney1st
Posts: 15478
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:40 pm
Been Liked: 3548 times
Has Liked: 5594 times
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by Sidney1st » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:05 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I care as much about the deaths of drug takers as i do for the deaths of alcoholics.

No, i don't think supplying drugs should eb a crime. I think they should be sold and regulated the same way alcohol and tobacco are regulated and sold. Two things that kill many, many times more people than drugs.

And of course the same logic applies. Why wouldn't it?
Interestingly people get round the tobacco rules by bringing back the stuff from Europe.
Some smaller shops sell the more harmful European stuff to their regular customers.

Cheap booze is also much sought after, to the point people 'make' some.

Same does, and will, happen with drugs.
Yes making it legal will help to a degree, but the dealers will just chop it up more with dodgy stuff to undercut shops and make their money.
With wide variations of stuff out there to buy, it will take a while for the usual dealers to end up out of business.

Plus many people take stuff without it being general knowledge so they may not want to be seen going into a shop to buy their drugs.

Wile E Coyote
Posts: 8852
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:22 pm
Been Liked: 3021 times
Has Liked: 1868 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by Wile E Coyote » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:19 am

TsarBomba wrote:You’re happy for drug dealers to be killed, so quite clearly, you don’t know the reality of the situation and haven’t encountered the first hand issues, or else you wouldn’t have that opinion.

When you’ve had to scrape a teenager off the floor, give them CPR, and had to tell a family member that a loved one has died, get back to me.
and you alone are the only person who has witnessed such events!

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:28 am

I'm not comfortable with addicts getting heroin prescribed by doctors but the current system isn't working at all.

Spijed
Posts: 18057
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 3053 times
Has Liked: 1327 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by Spijed » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:55 am

Bin Ont Turf wrote:Sorry but I have to laugh to the point of wetting my trousers at the thought of Heroin being given free to smack heads by doctors in this country.
That's why Methadone is prescribed instead.

What do you suggest getting people of drugs?

Sidney1st
Posts: 15478
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:40 pm
Been Liked: 3548 times
Has Liked: 5594 times
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by Sidney1st » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:57 am

Spijed wrote:That's why Methadone is prescribed instead.

What do you suggest getting people of drugs?
There isn't much that does get people off drugs.
They need the will to do it, like all addictions.

You can talk to people about the contents of what they believe is cocaine, but they generally aren't interested in knowing.
You can talk about the potential side effects of weed and again they aren't bothered.

Same applies to binge drinkers.

Blackrod
Posts: 5114
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:41 pm
Been Liked: 1348 times
Has Liked: 608 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by Blackrod » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:26 am

I'm all for the death penalty for mass murderers and sex offenders. I'm not comfortable with it for drug dealers as I think there is a chance for rehabilitation.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3824
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1165 times
Has Liked: 761 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:43 am

Mattster wrote:@AndrewJB bit of a hole in your suggestion.

You say if you give it out for free to addicts then no one will be able to make money selling it to non-addicts but plenty of prescription drugs get sold on the street. Do you honestly think no non-addicts are going to want to try it? Especially when told "Don't worry, if you get addicted you'll get it for free". It wouldn't end the problem, though would probably improve the status quo.

Wouldn't work with cigarettes, in fact I think that would potentially make the situation worse since cigarettes are so freely and (relatively cheaply) available in neighbouring countries. It would almost incentivise getting addicted.
With tobacco there has always been a vocal and well funded lobby against restrictions - even to the point at which they used to publish their own health studies showing that smoking 'isn't so bad for you' By getting rid of the industry altogether and making it a public health issue I think we'd be sending the clear message that we aim to end smoking, but at the same time not leaving those who smoke cast adrift. Smoking is one of those things that people in the future will shake their heads over. Paying lots of money to ingest deadly chemicals, and damage our health and that of those around us. As I said, the focus has to be on harm reduction, so making tobacco something you can only get if you're a registered addict would be a vast improvement on what we have now - where anyone can just choose to start - and if we know who smokes, we can more easily offer assistance in terms of helping them reduce or stop. If we had this system there would be no outside country that could sell tobacco to us cheaper than we could produce it ourselves. We could sell prescription tobacco for next to nothing. The most probably danger would be our cheap tobacco being exported.

It might seem crazy to just give heroin addicts their fix, perhaps seen as a reward for failure. Heroin addicts should be considered in the context of their addiction. They're not desperate to get high, but take it to relieve the anxiety of not having it. It's a physical addiction, and whereas some people have weaned themselves off it, they didn't do that purely through will. They had support from people around them, and probably few concerns around things like food, shelter, and clothing. Prescribing heroin would enable addicts to start the journey toward being productive citizens, positively engaged with social care professionals who might help them eventually come off it. There is no immutable law saying addiction always leads to a person wanting more.

When you say prescription drugs get sold on the street, does that mean that people sell their own prescriptions, or that drugs normally available only on prescription get sold on the street by people who get them illegally in large quantities? I would say the second example is the greatest reason for those drugs hitting the streets, and that market is in place precisely because of our current drug laws. By putting safer recreational versions in place nobody will go around selling Ritalin nicked from the back of a lorry, because nobody will want to buy it.

If people have safe and inexpensive alternatives, then far fewer people will take things like horse tranquilizers to get high. I think in return for decriminalisation, the vast majority of recreational drug users would welcome and accept forms of regulation and control in how these drugs are handed out, and what choices they have. Right now every weekend hundreds of thousands of people buy ecstasy or marijuana despite the law, and enjoy these drugs more peaceably than those who drink alcohol. The cost of these drugs factors in the cost of production and distribution, with huge profit margins at every step of the way, which balance out the legal risks at each level. It's an insane system for a country to leave in place, and one directly resulting from the fact it's illegal. Drug dealing is a victimless crime (bear with me here) insofar as when a transaction takes place that both sides are happy with, who is going to report it to the police? It's easy money for orgainised crime. Surely a better way would be for drugs like these (which cause far fewer problems than alcohol) to be made and sold legally in a regulated way that reduces harm, cuts out criminals, and allows the state to reinvest the huge tax revenues to fund harm reduction in other areas?

dsr
Posts: 16280
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4881 times
Has Liked: 2596 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by dsr » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:56 am

Good post, Andrew, but there's a big practical problem with the idea of making tobacco something you can only get if you're a registered addict. It can't be done. The law has said for decades if not centuries that children can't buy tobacco, but the smell of the toilets in schools hasn't changed. (And I'm talking about tobacco smells, before anyone asks!)

bfcjg
Posts: 14834
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:17 pm
Been Liked: 5696 times
Has Liked: 8365 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by bfcjg » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:50 pm

The death penalty for dealers not addicts would get my vote. These vermin create addicts, these vermin give drugs for free to teenagers outside schools to get them hooked. I would put every last one of them down, the importers the Mr Bigs the lot of them, perhaps then we could stop the creation of addicts who incidentally would get compulsory detoxification.
I read an article years ago which basically said Russia need not have a war with America to conquer it just ensure there is always a supply of cheap drugs and the Americans will kill themselves.

Mattster
Posts: 2015
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:02 am
Been Liked: 501 times
Has Liked: 188 times

Re: Death Penalty for drug dealers

Post by Mattster » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:52 pm

@AndrewJB still a bunch of holes in that thinking, though.

RE: Prescription drugs on the street, I was referring to people who obtain the illegally, if heroin was available on prescription then it would likely end up in available in the same way. Dealers would not go away overnight and whilst their current customer base may be able to get heroin on prescription they'd have supplies and would obviously go in hunt of new customers. You said people don't take it soberly and to get addicted, they do so due to being vulnerable, well people wouldn't stop being vulnerable. There'd still be a supply of potential new customers and they would know that if they did end up addicted then their future habit would become free of charge. New users would know they'd be getting good quality, the escape they desire and the security of knowing a free supply is to come along with all the support services their cry for help needs.

Like I say it could potentially be an improvement on the current status but it's not without a lot of drawbacks.

RE: smoking. People would still want to start smoking, cigarettes would be available either abroad or illegally at a markup. Again, knowing that once you're addicted the supply would become free isn't going to discourage people from starting. Or are you suggesting that the free supply and addiction support would only be available to those who register at the point of the ban?

Your stance on smoking is also at odds with legalising marijuana. Though I agree legalising, taxing, regulating some drugs such as marijuana is pretty much a win win.

Post Reply