What next for Labour?

[Falcon]

I still reckon there'll be just as much anti-Semitism amongst the ranks of the Conservatives and the Lib Dems as there is amongst Labour. So yes, smear campaign to an extent.

[NCClaret]

I think this is yet another part of a coordinated attack on Corbyn. The Tories are clearly rattled by the prospect of a less than successful Brexit and need to get their retaliation in early as it were.
The political landscape regarding Jews is quite interesting.
About 1 in 220 of our population is Jewish yet our House of Lords, for example, features 65 Jews out of 800 lords, a 1 in 13 proportion.
Looking also at banking and the judiciary, there does seem to be a massive over-representation.
Whether it matters or not I'll leave for others to decide but there's no denying a lot of crucial power and influence lies disproportionately in Jewish hands.

Good attempt at making a seemingly innocuous statement about representation of Jews in the House of Lords ... banking ... judiciary ... I think we know where you're coming from!

[Falcon]

In an ideal world the house of lords would be an elected chamber, but there you go.

If we can't have that then the demographics of the current set up should ideally proportionately mirror the demographics of the country at a whole. How to do that without sounding bigoted against the disproportionately large groups is a really difficult one though.

[bluelabrador16]

Enough is More Than Enough! Gilad Azmon 27/03

"Jewish power, as I define it, is the power to suppress criticism of Jewish power.

For the last few days the Brits have been shown a spectacular display of that power and the manner in which it is mobilised. Without any attempt to hide their behaviour, a bunch of Jewish leaders have chosen to slander Europe’s biggest party and its popular leader in the name of ‘Jewish sensitivities.’

This blitz attack was sparked by Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn’s reaction to a mural back in 2012. The mural was painted by US street artist Kalen Ockerman. Apparently, at the time Corbyn defended the public display of the painting on the grounds of freedom of speech.

.. “Rothschild, Rockefeller, Morgan, Aleister Crowley, Carnegie & Warburg“. Of the six men, only Rothschild and Warburg were Jewish

Yesterday 1500 British Jews took to the streets outside Parliament. They protested Corbin’s “systematic failure to deal with antisemitism.”

In his speech at the protest Jonathan Arkush, the leader of the ardent Zionist Board of Deputies of British Jews, cited Labour’s failure to take proper action on the claims of antisemitism against former London mayor Ken Livingstone and other Labour Party members.

Zionists do not like Ken Livingstone. This is understandable. The man is a legendary icon of ethical thinking. Despite their protests, it is still not easy for the Labour party to expel one of its legends simply for telling the truth about Hitler’s collaboration with Zionism....

It is clear why some Jews are upset by Corbyn. The Labour leader treats the Jews as ordinary people. He fails to respect their choseness and ignores their sense of exceptionalism....

British Jewish leadership is panicking. It has declared open war against a mainstream British political party...

So that, for instance, once you see Israel for what it is you just can’t un-see it. Once you grasp that the Jewish State is a racist oppressive force no one will be able to uproot that perception in you. Jewish Zionists do face a growing wall of resentment. Instead of dealing with it by means of self reflection, they repeat Israel’s mistake and adopt the most oppressive authoritarian agenda. They are desperately trying to turn Britain into an Orwellian dystopia...."

https://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/2018/3 ... han-enough" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Falcon]

I really hope you're not a Labour member Labrador. If so, I'm going to have to confiscate your card.

[RMutt]

I know Corbyn has apologised for not looking closely enough at the mural before declaring demands for its removal as being against freedom of speech. What has he now seen, that the Jewish community are complaining about, that I still cannot see?

[If it be your will]

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[Sidney1st]

The average person wouldn't have a clue what the issue is with the image.
You'd have to be really looking or clued up to spot it.

[If it be your will]

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[If it be your will]

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[NCClaret]

The average person wouldn't have a clue what the issue is with the image.
You'd have to be really looking or clued up to spot it.

Seriously?? Breathtaking ... take a close look

[AndrewJB]

Now, another resignation from the people's party, Labour's " Chair of Disputes Panel " , Christine Shawcross, a Committee member of " Momentum ", has resigned, only from that post mind you, following her calling for the reinstatement of Alan Bull, a Labour activist who re-tweeted an article entitled, "The International Red Cross confirms the Holocaust of 6 million Jews is a hoax " .....

She has stubbornly refused to resign from Labour's ruling National Executive Council, and is still a Labour Member, and serving on " Momentum's " Committee ! Labour MP's John Woodcock and John Mann have called for her expulsion from the Party, and internal Party sources, have described the Labour party procedures to report Anti-Semitic abuse as " so complex and toxic " that the number of outstanding complaints could well number over 2,000 !!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43578225

But obviously, it's just a smear campaign !!

To your Daily Mail sourced info I'll add this blog for balance.

https://medium.com/@TonyGreenstein/more ... e65b5c2695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The truth I'm sure is somewhere in between.

[If it be your will]

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[Sidney1st]

Please, with complete sincerity, educate me here Sidney...

About the image?

You're asking the wrong person, I'm not looking to find anything offensive in it, to me it's just a weird image.

To those who have certain beliefs it's offensive.

[Sidney1st]

Seriously?? Breathtaking ... take a close look

To me it's just an image.

I see people with money round a table made of humans.
Due to this thread I understand what it's implying, but normally I wouldn't give it a second look if I walked past it in the street.

[UpTheBeehole]

To your Daily Mail sourced info I'll add this blog for balance.

https://medium.com/@TonyGreenstein/more ... e65b5c2695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The truth I'm sure is somewhere in between.

These fake anti-semitism smears from the right are disgusting and dangerous.

[If it be your will]

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[If it be your will]

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[NCClaret]

You daren't say. No one will. The Times, Telegraph, Mail, Bloomberg, and all the others daren't say either. No will will say, which is why it took me so long to find the supposed answer. That's why they all say 'alledgedly depicting Jewish characters...' or 'apparently depicting...' or 'supposedly depicting...'

So missing it, as Corbyn, Sidney, RMutt, and myself did, supposedly makes us racist anti semites in denial. Whereas immediately realising it, bizarrely, does not. So immediately recognising a feature that has been used as a racist propaganda tool (and yes - worse) makes you a 'goodie' defending the rights of the Jewish people. Being genuinely blind to it makes you an anti semitic 'baddie'.

What a totally stupid world we live in. I hope Labour voters will make extra effort to vote, if they can, on May 3rd in response to this insanity.

... take a look at this in the round in light of all the issues regarding anti-semitism. Some serious deflecting, hypocrisy and double standards going on around this.

Oh, and this: "I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic". Jeremy Corbyn

A Corbyn led Labour as a response to insanity?? ... good luck!

[AndrewJB]

... take a look at this in the round in light of all the issues regarding anti-semitism. Some serious deflecting, hypocrisy and double standards going on around this.

A Corbyn led Labour as a response to insanity?? ... good luck!

Do you mean on this board, or in the outside world in terms of "deflecting, hypocrisy, and double standards..." around anti-Semitism?

Firstly I don't think you'll find many people within the Labour Party who are anti-Semitic. I don't know anyone of any kind of political persuasion, for example, who actually believes the Holocaust didn't take place, or who thinks it was somehow exaggerated. That kind of thinking is so fringe even many far right people don't subscribe to it. Sharing something like that on social media might be stupid and offensive, but it doesn't make you a believer in it. And it is the stupidity and offensiveness that the Labour leadership is responding to by taking the line that it doesn't matter what intent a person has, if someone has been offended, or felt racially abused by the actions of a person in the Labour Party, then that has to be looked into.

An example to contrast this against is a recent pamphlet put out by the Conservative Party in Havering, which echoes their campaign against Sadiq Khan during the London mayoral election - during which they made a huge play on his race and religion. This was no less offensive, and yet little was made of it in terms of soul searching within the Conservative Party, or a rooting out of the racists.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/d ... out-tories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This isn't me merely suggesting the Tories are worse racists than Labour - we all know that anyway - or saying; 'so as long as Labour are less racist it's fine'. Politics would be immensely better without racism altogether. The real smear is in throwing the muck at Corbyn over any problem that occurs within the Labour Party - especially when it has to do with something he's fought against all his life. In the link above there's no mention of racism being a huge problem in the Tory Party, or that Theresa May is somehow at fault for letting it get out of hand. If you're looking for hypocrisy or double standards, you need look no further than this.

[NCClaret]

'Firstly I don't think you'll find many people within the Labour Party who are anti-Semitic'.

... You are in denial

[android]

Wow. Some serious head in the sand stuff going on here. I'm sure IIBYW is smarter than he is making out on this thread. The anti Semitic mural that Corbyn was defending was depicting rich Jews oppressing the peoples of the world and the "artist" made no bones about that so it's pointless pretending otherwise.

Those claiming Corbyn does not have a problem with anti-Semitism seem to be ignoring a couple of key tenets of his belief system. Fundamental to his DNA.

1) He despises private wealth and by association wealthy people. As Eddie noted in rather sinister fashion, the far left view is that a disproportionate number of wealthy and powerful people are Jewish. Many on the left or right are not interested in the race or religion of wealthy people but sadly many on the far left have taken this as an excuse to justify anti-Semitism. Corbyn looks like a useful idiot in this area as he may well genuinely believe that he is not personally anti Semitic and yet his prejudice against wealth leads him to so often side with those who are.

2) Evil West and (in this case) Palestine. Corbyn blames much of the worlds ills on the evil West, particularly American foreign policy and by association their friends the nasty Brits (us!). So he infamously befriends groups like Hamas - dedicated to the destruction of Israel. But it's Israel the country that is at fault. The fact that the people of Israel happen to be Jewish does not make Corbyn anti Semitic in his mind. But again, some of his friends find that distinction a bit more tricky. If push comes to shove guess which side Corbyn will take?

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

Of course certain elements of the media are making the most of this but the idea that it is a smear is pathetic - just ask Labour MPs.

[If it be your will]

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[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

Wow. Some serious head in the sand stuff going on here. I'm sure IIBYW is smarter than he is making out on this thread. The anti Semitic mural that Corbyn was defending was depicting rich Jews oppressing the peoples of the world and the "artist" made no bones about that so it's pointless pretending otherwise.

Those claiming Corbyn does not have a problem with anti-Semitism seem to be ignoring a couple of key tenets of his belief system. Fundamental to his DNA.

1) He despises private wealth and by association wealthy people. As Eddie noted in rather sinister fashion, the far left view is that a disproportionate number of wealthy and powerful people are Jewish. Many on the left or right are not interested in the race or religion of wealthy people but sadly many on the far left have taken this as an excuse to justify anti-Semitism. Corbyn looks like a useful idiot in this area as he may well genuinely believe that he is not personally anti Semitic and yet his prejudice against wealth leads him to so often side with those who are.

2) Evil West and (in this case) Palestine. Corbyn blames much of the worlds ills on the evil West, particularly American foreign policy and by association their friends the nasty Brits (us!). So he infamously befriends groups like Hamas - dedicated to the destruction of Israel. But it's Israel the country that is at fault. The fact that the people of Israel happen to be Jewish does not make Corbyn anti Semitic in his mind. But again, some of his friends find that distinction a bit more tricky. If push comes to shove guess which side Corbyn will take?

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

Of course certain elements of the media are making the most of this but the idea that it is a smear is pathetic - just ask Labour MPs.

I agree about someones head being in the sand but personally I don't think it's Corbyn.

1. Was Jesus (a Jew himself) anti-semitic when he threw over the tables of the Jewish money changers and he called them thieves?. Is it really anti-semitic for Corbyn to want something different for society when it comes to the wealth of the people. Does Corbyn's prejudice against the wealthy and being in favour of redistribution of wealth to the poor make him anti-semitic?

2. I found it interesting you used the word Palestine, however lets examine Israel. Are the United Nations anti-semitic they have made plenty of resolutions that Israel are in defiance of. Maybe you would say it's not Israels fault they are in defiance of UN resolutions but someone else's fault? From 2012 through 2015, the United Nations General Assembly has adopted 97 resolutions criticizing countries; 83 out of those 97 have been against Israel. Is the United Nations General Assembly anti-semitic? From its creation in June 2006 through June 2016, the UN Human Rights Council over one decade adopted 135 resolutions criticizing countries; 68 out of those 135 resolutions have been against Israel (more than 50%).Is the UN Human Rights Council anti semitic?. In my opinion Corbyn fights for the underdog, the little people, those that don't have the ability to fight for themselves and yes sometimes he occasionally supports the wrong little people, but you know what - people that do nothing, never make any mistakes!

The whole Corbyn issue is a smear by actually parts of the Labour party who hark back to the new Labour era, they are actually the true communists because the choice they would offer is no choice. They want a Newer Labour party which would restrict people's freedom of thought and expression, they hate that the British people had a choice over Brexit. We should be very afraid of the new Labour cohorts and we should never forget that they mislead the country and sent us into an illegal war. A war by the way that Corbyn campaigned against. And oh yes which country tops the list of countries which have benefited most from this illegal war, yes you guessed it - Israel

[Lancasterclaret]

The whole Corbyn issue is a smear by actually parts of the Labour party who hark back to the new Labour era,

It isn't though, is it?

Its an inability by some (and I have to be honest here, more and more as this goes on) Labour members to understand what anti-semitism is.

All of you who back Corbyn unreservedly on this post have all failed in the "do I really know what is anti-semitism is?" test. That alone should worry you as you are all normally very sensible posters who I largely agree with on most things.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Anyone doubting what anti-semitism is and leads to should watch Andrew Neil’s 2 minute intro for This Week last night. A stirring intro.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09xpcg0

The trouble with Labour is these views seem more deep rooted than extreme views in other mainstream parties. The Lib Dem’s, to be fair to them, seem to have the least controversial views of all, but even the Tories are fairly tame. Extreme right wingers don’t tend to get attracted to any main party.

[Erasmus]

Anti-semiticism is racist prejudice against people who are Jewish. It is utterly deplorable as are all forms of racism. Anti-semitisim is not opposition to the policies of the state of Israel and their abuse of the Palestinian people. This is quite reasonable given the recent history.

[If it be your will]

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[Lancasterclaret]

I'll turn it around if you don't mind ITBYW.

Is your problem with criticism of Corbyn, or do you just not see what is anti-semitism and what isn't?

That mural is anti-semitic. Corbyn has said it is, Owen Jones has said it is. You've said it isn't.

And i've no time for "Whataboutery" - I know the tories are just as bad about Muslims but this isn't about that, its about Labour and the Jews.

[If it be your will]

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[If it be your will]

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[Lancasterclaret]

So you think a completely purged Momentum led labour party, with no dissenting voices at all under Corbyn will beat the tories?

Thats a bold claim. One that I hope is never tested at election time because it would be a Tory landslide.

[Lancasterclaret]

Emma Barnett (a jew) has just tweeted this

https://twitter.com/BenKentish/status/9 ... 3496529922" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You are ignoring an issue here because you don't want to see it as an issue.

[If it be your will]

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[Lancasterclaret]

Apologies, I read it as you thought it would be the for the best. Which it clearly isn't, all political parties need dissenting voices.

[Lancasterclaret]

How can it not be anti-semitic at first glance ITBYW?

Seriously, that is the issue. You cannot see that and think anything other than "that is an anti-semitic mural".

Corbyn has acknowledged that (which is great) but a lot of his supporters are still going on about it using blatant anti-semitic language (as the twitter feed proves)

[If it be your will]

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[Lancasterclaret]

Regarding Erasmus post.

It is possible to be anti-Israeli and not be an anti-semite. The problem is that people are struggling to separate the two. (in my eyes at least)

[Lancasterclaret]

It is going nowhere because you are refusing to accept that this isn't a smear campaign. It is going nowhere because you don't think its an issue. Corbyn thinks its an issue, Owen Jones thinks it is, prominent Labour Jewish members think it is.

The ammunition for the likes of the Mail to attack Labour is all there, it needs removing so that the smear campaign tactic can't work.

And you know I think the Mail is a **** rag, but the actual story here is valid, and the more Labour members that go on about smear campaigns and then blame "the jewish lobby", it is not going to go away.

[If it be your will]

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[Lancasterclaret]

https://twitter.com/meteorcurator/statu ... 4141264896

This is as well. More worried about covering it up and blaming the leak, rather than sorting out the problem.

Surely you can see that actions like this harm your cause?

[Lancasterclaret]

What is anti-semitism?

You are kidding me?

I like your posts, you are erudite, honest and your convictions shine through like a beacon of light in the dross that is normally see on here......so I'm struggling to see how you don't know what anti-semitism is.

Sorry

[If it be your will]

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[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not saying you do, and I'm certainly not saying that Corbyn does.

But I would argue that Corbyn cuts people who share his convictions on the West, the US and Israel a lot more slack on this. Ken Livingstone should be expelled from the Labour party, George Galloway shouldn't even be in consideration to be allowed back in for example.

And both the tweets I've posted show that an awful lot of Labour members don't realise they are being anti-semitic, or want to ignore it because they see it as a slight on Corbyn.

I admire Corbyn for his convictions and his loyalty (see Diane Abbott, nationally she is a vote loser) but on somethings he has flaws, and when you are talking about becoming PM, those flaws are going to be ruthessly exposed.

Lab should have a 20% plus lead in the polls at the moment. It doesn't even have a lead at the moment. And that is not because of Blairites.

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

Some of the same people who were crying about freedom of speech and insisting that Charlie Hebdo had the right to publish and actually the right to offend with cartoons about the prophet Mohammed are now crying about this mural. Why is that? why do we even use the words anti-semetic and not just racism, why do they have a special class of racism thats somehow worse than being anti-muslim for example? If they want true equality they would stop this rhetoric. The fact is the Jews don't want equality, in fact its the last thing they want is to be treated like anyone else, they use their power, influence, their dominance in the media to brainwash people and yes use money to get their own way so they remain on top. We need to move on from the guilt of the truly horrendous events that happened to the Jews in Europe 75 years ago and have the willingness to tackle todays issues and say to Israel enough is enough, you will stop your building, you will allow food and aid into the Palestinian areas and you will allow a UN peacekeeping force in the country until a 2 state solution is complete. You can not divide being anti-semitic and anti-Israel, why because a lot of Jews themselves see Israel as part of the family and when you criticise a family member, no one likes that.
If we don't deal with the Israel issue we will never have peace in the middle east.

On today of all days isn't it ironic that we are discussing the Jews, I can't help thinking if they had the same vote today as they had two thousand years ago they would still put their own self interest first and save Barabbas and as for Jesus they would still shout 'crucify him'.

[bluelabrador16]

Well worth watching:

Empire Files: Israeli Army Vet’s Exposé - “I Was the Terrorist”

"In a rare, candid conversation, Abby Martin interviews a former Israeli Army combat soldier who served as an occupier in Palestine’s Hebron City.

Eran Efrati spent years as a sergeant and combat soldier in the Israeli military, but has since become an outspoken critic of the occupation of Palestine and Israeli apartheid.

Efrati gives explosive testimony on the reality of his service and explains how war crimes are institutionalized, as well as how systematic the oppression against Palestinians really is in a war of conquest that will no-doubt be accelerated under the Trump Administration."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLNA ... Rk1dAIhiVc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bluelab....Respect Eran Efrati

Comments:

...As an American growing up with "exceptionalism", I can really relate to this guy.

....This needs to be shared by everyone, sad that in our day and age, people still believe the lies spread by our mainstream media, when the truth is so easily accessible.

....It took courage and moral character to speak out. Excellent interview, I hope to see more from Eran Efrati

....Truth will prevail. Awakening interview.

.....How beautiful the spirit of a human being with a conscience - and how rare.

[Lancasterclaret]

Around about now, the defence lawyer has his head in his hands.

[Vino blanco]

Theresa May has had a few good days though.

[RMutt]

I’ve just spent ages writing a long explanation of my interpretation of the mural and how I saw it pretty much as the artist says it was intended. But I’ve somehow lost it and I can’t spend all that time writing it out again. So instead here is a link to what the artist says he originally intended to portray. I suppose you can believe him or not. I suppose it is possible to misinterpret it in either direction but that is where a good art scholar would do his research to try to avoid such mistakes.( android, I’m not sure the artist does make no bones about it being anti-Semitic)

Of course it doesn’t explain why this should all be dug up six years after the event.

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/com ... ati_mural/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[NCClaret]

The fact is the Jews don't want equality, in fact its the last thing they want is to be treated like anyone else, they use their power, influence, their dominance in the media to brainwash people and yes use money to get their own way so they remain on top.

I could give you a number of comparisons about other minority groups but I won't because even to make a point it would be so wrong - as is your outlandish and discriminatory diatribe. If you are a Labour supporter I now fully realise the extent of their problem on this.