England goalkeepers

[scouseclaret]

No more clearly demonstrated is the media’s agenda to ensure Jordan Pickford is installed as first choice keeper than in this article. Although the stats referred to overwhelmingly show that Pope is the clear leader, the article manages to conclude that Pickford should be first choice based on distribution, even though the stats actually show that - as I’ve long argued - his distribution is nothing special:

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/ ... with-stats" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[IanMcL]

He was very lucky when he tried it for England. Almost caught out and often tearing about the pen, for no good reason. Makes Hart look solid!

[piston broke]

Pickford will start and a feck up will cost England dear. Then everyone can say “I told you so”.

[scouseclaret]

If he plays like that at the World Cup it will certainly end in tears.

[Diesel]

Picked is too small, the modern day keeper, better keepers are 1.90m plus.

Edit: Pickford

[Melbourneclaret]

I just cannot understand the media’s obsession with Pickford. The pundits on 5live regularly rave about him but he looks like he’s got a mistake in him everytime he plays. Pope is a better shot stopper, more commanding in his area and a better decision maker. The only edge Pickford has is that he can more reliably boot it long down the middle of the pitch whereas you’re always crossing your fingers when Pope kicks it. He’ll be our no. 1 next season and I think we’ll see Tom go, unfortunately.

[Im_not_Robbie_Blake]

One statistic not show - consistency at taking high balls/crosses. We all know Pope is the best ever in that department, and if England face teams who ut in high balls and crosses from wide Nick deals with them. I that way, he doesn't lose the ball so the opposition can't have chances to score.

[alwaysaclaret]

If anyone should be in front of pope imo it should be butland, he has similarities to pope in that he's not too different in stature, he's a shot stopper, commands he's area and just looks right, in comparison pickford is smaller, looks very anxious in everything he does, he's body shape says it all for me, and he's too predominantly left footed, imo he was shocking in the game against us at the turf, however pope is head and shoulders above both of them, although to be honest I'm not too bothered if pope didn't become no1 with europa in mind although will be good for him in terms of training etc, while at the same time getting a break from the pressures of match time. Just checked and imo the only thing pope fails on is he needs to fill out slightly but that may compromise he's agility. All in all no contest for me.

[Claretmatt4]

It's a bias because Pickford is younger and had a great season 2 years ago. The media don't want to knock him down for Pope who's older and less modern in his style.

The fact Pope is better in 3/4 aspects (all three of which involving stopping the opponent from scoring) appears to matter very little.

[BFC123]

If anyone should be in front of pope imo it should be butland, he has similarities to pope in that he's not too different in stature, he's a shot stopper, commands he's area and just looks right

Butland is awful at commanding his area. Saw that the other week when we played them. He never leaves his line, and we used that to create a lot of chances from deep crosses and corners into the 6 yard box. Our goal came from a similar situation. He’s a fantastic shot stopper but, for someone who’s 6ft 5, he’s awful at commanding his area. Mark Schwarzer said the same about Butland not commanding his area a few days ago.

[starting_11]

I think my point on the matter is all you need to know;

If he can come off the bench and be instantly world class in the PL... he deserves a shot starting in goal.

You just can't argue with anything when you're comparing him to Butland and Pickford, he is night and day the best keeper out of the three.

[Devils_Advocate]

One statistic not show - consistency at taking high balls/crosses. We all know Pope is the best ever in that department, and if England face teams who ut in high balls and crosses from wide Nick deals with them. I that way, he doesn't lose the ball so the opposition can't have chances to score.

International football is played much more on the deck with teams trying to play in behind teams on the deck so its a shame for Pope that probably his strength that stands out against all his peers including Heaton isn't that sought after at this level.

In contrast keeping possession is absolutely key because unlike in the Premier League where it is much more direct and end to end you just don't get the ball back that quickly. This is why there is a lot more focus on the keepers ability to use his feet and keep possession.

Not sure who i'd go for as we have three keepers all with a decent case but i'd reckon a load of ex-players and the England manager are far better qualified and a lot more objective in giving their opinion than a bunch of Burnley fans who would be crying out for Pickford as #1 if he played for Burnley and Pope played for Everton

[jrgbfc]

Don't think this is the best place for an unbiased debate on England goalkeepers to be honest! Let's face it the majority of people saying Pope should be starting are doing it solely because he plays for us. He won't be playing because his distribution just isn't good enough. When you come up against the better teams if you give the ball away cheaply you won't get it back for 10 minutes.

[Roosterbooster]

I’d say the only thing that really matters in a World Cup is consistency. One goalkeeping mistake and it’s potentially game over. Pope tops it for me

[IanMcL]

Pickford is a nervous wreck who blames his defenders and uses his agility to get out of scrapes he has caused. Butland relying on past rather than present performances. Pope commanding and best of the 3 all season.
If pope is bloodied in the friendlies, he could keep the jersey. If not, not a chance.

[scouseclaret]

Don't think this is the best place for an unbiased debate on England goalkeepers to be honest! Let's face it the majority of people saying Pope should be starting are doing it solely because he plays for us. He won't be playing because his distribution just isn't good enough. When you come up against the better teams if you give the ball away cheaply you won't get it back for 10 minutes.

Since when has a goalkeeper’s passing ability to pass the ball been more important than his ability to keep the ball out of the net? It’s ludicrous!

The way some people go on you’d think Jordan Pickford was Andrea Pirlo in goalie gloves. He isn’t! Even those Sky stats show his distribution is blow average.

[Claretmatt4]

Nothing to do with who he plays for. Did you even read the article? He's statistically far superior.

[Buxtonclaret]

It's a bias because Pickford is younger and had a great season 2 years ago. The media don't want to knock him down for Pope who's older and less modern in his style.

The fact Pope is better in 3/4 aspects (all three of which involving stopping the opponent from scoring) appears to matter very little.

That's right.
Plus the fact that Pickford is at Everton, with Nick playing for Burnsley, ....I mean Burnley!

[dsr]

Well, the previous manager liked Harry Kane because he was good at taking corners.

One thing that is always overlooked - it doesn't matter how fast or far the goalkeeper kicks it; both sides get the same number of possessions. And every part of a possession is only relevant in how it leads up to the final result - which is either a goal, or no goal. The rest is just detail.

If the goalkeeper wellies it up the field, then it has two main effects - it (presumably) reduces our chances of scoring from this possession, and it (presumably) reduces the risk that when we lose possession it will give them a good position. Pickford in hisd last friendly almost gave the ball away twice by pratting about trying to play a fancy short pass; once by passing it badly and once by clearing it against a forward but it bounced out for a goal kick. We saw against Bournemouth what can happen by obsessing about possession.

[Devils_Advocate]

One thing that is always overlooked - it doesn't matter how fast or far the goalkeeper kicks it; both sides get the same number of possessions. And every part of a possession is only relevant in how it leads up to the final result - which is either a goal, or no goal. The rest is just detail.

This is absolute rubbish. Teams spend far more energy without the ball than with it so if a team keeps possession for 5 mns then you just give it them straight back and this repeats one team is going to spend nearly the whole match chasing around. This is how better teams in a tight game wear down lesser teams and often open them up in the last 20 mins when they tire

English football doesn't value possession that highly so you can afford to give it away more cheaply but at international level even the small teams retain the ball well so you have to be more considered in possesion

[taio]

This is absolute rubbish. Teams spend far more energy without the ball than with it so if a team keeps possession for 5 mns then you just give it them straight back and this repeats one team is going to spend nearly the whole match chasing around. This is how better teams in a tight game wear down lesser teams and often open them up in the last 20 mins when they tire

English football doesn't value possession that highly so you can afford to give it away more cheaply but at international level even the small teams retain the ball well so you have to be more considered in possesion

Agree - complete rubbish. To the extent I can't understand how anyone can really believe it.

[BabylonClaret]

This is absolute rubbish. Teams spend far more energy without the ball than with it so if a team keeps possession for 5 mns then you just give it them straight back and this repeats one team is going to spend nearly the whole match chasing around. This is how better teams in a tight game wear down lesser teams and often open them up in the last 20 mins when they tire

English football doesn't value possession that highly so you can afford to give it away more cheaply but at international level even the small teams retain the ball well so you have to be more considered in possesion

Whilst that's true to an extent there are plenty of examples of teams winning without much possession. Liverpool have dumped City (arguably the most "unEnglish" winners of the Prem) three times this season despite City having loads more possession than them over all three games.

[Devils_Advocate]

Whilst that's true to an extent there are plenty of examples of teams winning without much possession. Liverpool have dumped City (arguably the most "unEnglish" winners of the Prem) three times this season despite City having loads more possession than them over all three games.

I wasn't saying possession is everything I was just pointing out that what DSR said about the only value in possession is if you get a positive result out of it is rubbish.

Football is far more complex but a team who constantly gives the ball away cheaply and quickly will struggle a lot more than a team who is able to keep the ball and use it to put the opposition under pressure

[Spijed]

I wasn't saying possession is everything I was just pointing out that what DSR said about the only value in possession is if you get a positive result out of it is rubbish.

Football is far more complex but a team who constantly gives the ball away cheaply and quickly will struggle a lot more than a team who is able to keep the ball and use it to put the opposition under pressure

Under Dyche we struggle far more when we have more possession in a game than when we don't. (WBA away last season when we lost 4-0, for example)

[Foulthrow]

With possession though it all depends on how the other team is setting up. We usually don't lose that much energy because we often drop off and let the other team pass it around the back. This is why City's possession stats are so high. Most teams back off and watch them pass it about the back. Therefore, it doesn't really matter from a 'getting tired' point of view.

When you look at the upcoming World Cup you would imagine that whether England hoof it or not, both Tunisia and Panama are likely to try to sit back - therefore England are likely to have the majority of possession. And these are the two games that will decide whether they progress or not. I can't see the keeper being that crucial in setting up play. However, one mistake against either of these teams could see England knocked out as Panama or Tunisia hold out for a win/draw.

[Rileybobs]

There's no doubt that Pope, at worst, matches the other two keepers in every area other than with the ball at his feet. But this is a huge weakness of his, one which he has time to improve on but a huge weakness nonetheless. It's not just his passing under pressure, his goal kicks are generally inaccurate and he certainly isn't comfortable enough to act as an additional outfield player when we have possession which is what Southgate is looking for.

Southgate will be looking to choose a first choice keeper for England's duration in the tournament, he's not going to pick a different goalkeeper against the weaker sides and nor should he. People who think that a goalkeeper's ability with his feet isn't important are as daft as those who think the same of a wide player's ability to defend.

If Pope can put a lot of work into improving his game with the ball at his feet, and I'm sure Burnley will be supportive of this, then he has an excellent chance of becoming England's future number one.

[BabylonClaret]

Nick's distribution does let hm down, but one thing those stats show is that in every other department there's only DeGea who's better - interestingly DGea is way down on the distribution stats as well which surprised me a bit but then I expect it's about style of play as much as ability.

Would anyone have Pickford over DeGea? Nope. And Pope sin't a million miles away from DeGea in those stats.

[bfcjg]

Pope can work on his kicking as it is relatively easy to coach that part of a keepers game. What is impossible to coach is growing a keeper by a few inches what is extremely difficult to coach is the ability to time when to come for a cross or stay on the line what is difficult to coach is shot stopping ability. IMHO apart from kicking a ball straight everytime Pope is better than the other two at all aspects of goal keeping a year working on his kicking it will be a no brainer he is England's number one.

[Jeffbfc]

Out of interest.
If Pickford or Butland get injured and Tom on standby gets called in.
What will Southgate do if the number one choice ( Pickford or Butland depending who was still there) gets injured will Pope or Heaton be his new No1?

[taio]

Out of interest.
If Pickford or Butland get injured and Tom on standby gets called in.
What will Southgate do if the number one choice ( Pickford or Butland depending who was still there) gets injured will Pope or Heaton be his new No1?

Pope. Otherwise Heaton would already be in the squad.

[FactualFrank]

Out of interest.
If Pickford or Butland get injured and Tom on standby gets called in.
What will Southgate do if the number one choice ( Pickford or Butland depending who was still there) gets injured will Pope or Heaton be his new No1?

It would be good for us Burnley fans. But Heaton has hardly played, so it would surely be a common sense pick.

[Jeffbfc]

so it would surely be a common sense pick.

Ah common sense. Forgot about that.

[FactualFrank]

Ah common sense. Forgot about that.

It would be a superb decision though, but Heaton just hasn't played, so the papers would be all over that one.