If there was a general election tomorrow would you still vote labour?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:16 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Well, yes. It's easy to hate someone if you make things up about them then believe what you made up.

1. I don’t hate him.
2. I haven't made anything up.

But apart from that you make a good point.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:21 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Well, yes. It's easy to hate someone if you make things up about them then believe what you made up.

Which is exactly what the Media does to people like Farage.

It's not exclusive to the left or right of the political spectrum, at this moment in time, but it does make a change to see the left being smeared the same way that the right has for a long time.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:25 pm

burnleymik wrote:Which is exactly what the Media does to people like Farage.

It's not exclusive to the left or right of the political spectrum, at this moment in time, but it does make a change to see the left being smeared the same way that the right has for a long time.

What have the media made up about Farage?

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:35 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What have the media made up about Farage?

Racist. Constant Liar. etc.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:41 pm

I like Farage, he's about the only politician I feel I could trust.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:42 pm

burnleymik wrote:Racist. Constant Liar. etc.

The are arguments to be made that he is a racist and a liar. Those weren't just made up. Corbyn being an IRA support was made up. Those aren't the same things.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:45 pm

I always vote Labour, I'm a working class bloke.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:12 pm

boatshed bill wrote:I always vote Labour, I'm a working class bloke.

I do wonder how Labour's alliance with the far left momentum and Corbyn's reputation, will affect the tribal voters in the North. I know loads would never ever vote Tories on principle alone, but I suspect many will not be able to vote for Labour in it's current state either.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:21 pm

burnleymik wrote:I do wonder how Labour's alliance with the far left momentum and Corbyn's reputation, will affect the tribal voters in the North. I know loads would never ever vote Tories on principle alone, but I suspect many will not be able to vote for Labour in it's current state either.

Sometimes you have to accept that it may not be exactly what you want to vote for, but it is what you want to vote against.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:32 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Sometimes you have to accept that it may not be exactly what you want to vote for, but it is what you want to vote against.

fair enough, can't argue with that.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:35 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Sometimes you have to accept that it may not be exactly what you want to vote for, but it is what you want to vote against.

Thanks to FPTP.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:00 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Corbyn being an IRA support was made up.

There are two things you are just going to have to face.

1. Some people disagree with you that Corbyn didn't support the IRA, because moral support is still support. (I don't think anyone is actually suggesting he personally murdered and soldiers, paramilitaries, loyalist terrorists, postmen, MPs, women carrying water to the wounded, or baby boys.)

2. Some people disagree with you.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:16 pm

KateR wrote:would never vote labour with the present leadership that is there, well two of them really, JC & DA and it baffles me how anyone else could also

This is what worries me about a potential Labour Government,the likes of Diane Abbott (Home Sec) and Emily Thornberry (Foreign Sec) plus McDonnell as chancellor,in normal times they wouldn't have a hope but these aren't normal times.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:22 pm

Vino blanco wrote:I like Farage, he's about the only politician I feel I could trust.

Good call, if he was to lead UKIP I’m sure the popularity would soar, I’m staunch labour in the past but I’d vote UKIP, nothing to do with Corbyn as I don’t think he’s a bad bloke, it’s more to do with labours position on the EU being split in terms of the support. You can’t please everybody I understand that, sometimes you do what’s right for you & your family.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:30 pm

dsr wrote:There are two things you are just going to have to face.

1. Some people disagree with you that Corbyn didn't support the IRA, because moral support is still support. (I don't think anyone is actually suggesting he personally murdered and soldiers, paramilitaries, loyalist terrorists, postmen, MPs, women carrying water to the wounded, or baby boys.)

2. Some people disagree with you.

He didn't support the IRA. The IRA were blowing people up. If he supported the IRA he'd be supporting that. He didn't support that, because he didn't support the IRA.
Saying he supported the IRA is a lie, and anyone who says he did is a liar.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:47 pm

If it was within your ability to understand that people can disagree with you, you would understand why I think Corbyn was an IRA supporter. But it isn't. so you come out with the same pathetic old "this person has written something I don't agree with, he must be a liar".

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:14 am

dsr wrote:If it was within your ability to understand that people can disagree with you, you would understand why I think Corbyn was an IRA supporter. But it isn't. so you come out with the same pathetic old "this person has written something I don't agree with, he must be a liar".

You seem to be suggesting that whether Corbyn "supported" the IRA was a matter of opinion. It isn't.

He NEVER supported them.

It's just a FACT.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:29 am

burnleymik wrote:Which is exactly what the Media does to people like Farage.

It's not exclusive to the left or right of the political spectrum, at this moment in time, but it does make a change to see the left being smeared the same way that the right has for a long time.

It’s not made up that he will collect a huge pension from an organisation he despises, his a hypocrite and tosser of the highest order

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:30 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:The are arguments to be made that he is a racist and a liar. Those weren't just made up. Corbyn being an IRA support was made up. Those aren't the same things.

The lack of self awareness in this post is astounding.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:50 am

I wish that both parties would come up with more centrist policies. As it stands the left are leaning further left and the right are leaning further right, when I suspect that the vast majority of the country stand somewhere just off central.

Just imagine if labour changed a few behaviours e.g. waving Palestine flags about, coming up with extreme cooperate business ideas. Basically imagine if they didn’t have Corbyn in charge. They would be streets ahead

Imagine if the tories had some nicer policies rather than helping the rich and pretending to help the poor. Imagine if they properly funded the nhs, scrapped zero hours contracts etc. They also would gain a lot of voters.

I think the challenge for labour is if they change now they will lose a lot of young voters but potentially gain a lot of traditional older labour voters. Do those older voters outnumber the young voters? It may feel that way in Burnley but probably not in Brixton. If labour continue down this path will those traditional voters vote for the tories? Probably not.

If labour win the next election then it will justify their stance but could be very unsettling for many years. If they lose then Corbyn has to go.

Il vote labour because I like more of their policies than the tories. I don’t like or dislike Corbyn. He says some brilliant things but does some things I don’t agree with. Dianne Abbott is a very good local MP but is she fit to run at the top end of government? The last election showed she couldn’t deal with the media game and as much as labour don’t like it that’s the game.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:54 am

I don't think Corbyn is a IRA or even a Hamas supporters, but that he's so welded into his politics of "must help the little guy" that he's convinced himself in his head that both of them are organisations that deserve representation, rather than the terrorists they were/are.

Saying that, McGuiness and Adams were in the IRA (and that is something that all UK citizens are going to struggle to forget or forgive) and if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have the peace in NI that we have now.

I'm very sure that Corbyn has nothing whatsoever to do with that though and the visit to the HofC by him with them was a **** poor publicity stunt.*

* Something that I suspect the older Corbyn regrets

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:01 am

If Corbyn was replaced by a younger man with less baggage, less sh*t to sling, but with the same policies and a better suit I bet labour would walk the next election.

If only labour would realise this. They don’t need Corbyn. He could even be in the background pulling the strings. Unfortunately the written press is always going to have a story on Corbyn. That’s the game and as much as labour don’t like it they are not going to change the rules of the game unless they got in power.
Get in power with a decent leader then step down and let Corbyn step up. Game over

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:07 am

joey13 wrote:It’s not made up that he will collect a huge pension from an organisation he despises, his a hypocrite and tosser of the highest order

He is elected as an MEP. He could easily do what the other folks on the gravy train are doing and defending the Eu with everything they have. people like the Kinnocks...

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:07 am

Thing is, there isn't anyone coming through who is Corbyn-lite with the same policies.

Raynor is good (certainly miles better than she was when she got thrust into the limelight) but that is about it.

Thornberry has too much baggage, Abbott ditto (and she really isn't any good as well), Williamson is the new Ken Livingstone (in the fact that he's going to be expelled at some stage when he goes too far on the Jews), Burgon is hilariously useless, ditto Gardiner.

There are some really good labour MPs who are not Corbynistas (Jess Philips for one) and they haven't got a chance either because they don't like Corbyn.

I can see the Conservatives winning the next election, but it being a bit like it is now in coalition with someone daft like the DUP again.

And if he loses another election with the country in such a state to such a poor government, then even the Corbynistas will have a think about replacing him.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:08 am

He is elected as an MEP. He could easily do what the other folks on the gravy train are doing and defending the Eu with everything they have. people like the Kinnocks...

You mean turn up for work?

that would be a start, and he could do far more good for the UK if he did.

But he's not interested in the UK, he's in it for Team Farage.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:19 am

Inchy wrote:I wish that both parties would come up with more centrist policies.

I agree, but we may have varying definitions of what “centrist” means.

YouGov did some work in 2016 where they split British politics into four “tribes” (and in parts, we may each sit in parts of more then one of them). https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/11/16/tr ... same-tree/

The Liberal tribes are the Liberal Left (Clegg) and the Liberal Centre Right (Boris).
The Authoritarian tribes are the Centric Moderate Authoritarian Populist (me) and the Right Wing Strong Authoritrian Populist (Farage)

The Liberal Centre Right one is actually more right wing than the Centric Authoritarian one. Certainly in an economic sense where it epitomises the Neoliberal and the challenge for liberals is that often they don’t understand that authoritarians can be more left wing and moderate than them. Liberals have to accept they can’t take moral superiority for granted. Authoritarian doesn’t mean nasty, it may mean, for example, bringing your child up with strict discipline.

The country is finely balanced across this split, but it is the AP tribes that are rapidly gaining ground across Europe (e.g. France doesn’t have a Liberal Centre Right party and Le Pen got most of her votes from under 40s so the risk there is obvious).

The yawning chasm in the U.K. is NOT for a Chukka led same again liberal centric party, but a more authoritarian, pro Brexit, pro law and order Centric moderate equivalent. There are loads in the country who would vote for this but few MPs of that type (Javid may be one).

So, to sum up, we do need more centric policies but mainly moderate authoritarian with a smattering of the liberal left and liberal right to get most of the country united. A good balance would be: high skilled migration continues, indeed rises; low skilled migration ceases unless for a specific case of need; big business excess is curbed; investment in northern transport; Brexit is delivered for real; policing and military are beefed up again; family life is prioritised; foreign policy is less aggressive.

The key challenge will be how the new moderate centric authoritarian leader rises, because rise they will, and how they forge a new relationship across Europe (I’m talking about the challenge for each country in Europe here). I suspect close relationships will be maintained, as will a single market and customs union, but the freedom of movement will be scrapped and borders beefed up again (little difference to us non-Schengens). It’ll be great.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:23 am

Right, course one centerists "authoritarian" is another centerists "fascism" but I digress.

Just to check though, so you are in favour of a single market and custom union then?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:23 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:The lack of self awareness in this post is astounding.

I dare you to attempt to explain.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:31 am

If he explained would you read it and take it in or would you launch into a "you are f*****g thick you idiot" meltdown ?

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:36 am

Inchy wrote:I wish that both parties would come up with more centrist policies. As it stands the left are leaning further left and the right are leaning further right, when I suspect that the vast majority of the country stand somewhere just off central.

Just imagine if labour changed a few behaviours e.g. waving Palestine flags about, coming up with extreme cooperate business ideas. Basically imagine if they didn’t have Corbyn in charge. They would be streets ahead

I've thought it for a while now, but Ed Miliband's Labour really should have won the general election in 2015. We would't be in the mess we're in now if they had. You can trace an awful lot of today's chaos back to the Conservatives wining that general election.

The right wing press at the time were absolutely hysterical about him becoming PM. Remember the disgraceful garbage the Mail printed about his Dad being a communist who hated Britain? The Sun splitting their sides about the way he ate a bacon sandwich? They did everything they could to discredit him (sound familiar?) and the Conservatives ended up winning with a slight majority, unexpectedly. This then led to Corbyn becoming leader of the Labour party, the Conservatives with enough power to unleash the Brexit referendum, and the rest is history.

The truth is he had some decent policies that would have pleased the 'centrists' as well as some which were centre-left, but the right wing press wouldn't tolerate it.

standishclarets · Post by **standishclarets** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:48 am

Let's try a little exercise. Hands up those who remember what became dubbed 'The Winter of Discontent', during the winter months of 1978/79, when James Callaghan was Prime Minister. Oh, not that many. Ok, hands up those who remember the Financial Crash of 2008, when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister. Ah, that's better.

What do these 2 events have in common - yes, you've guessed, they both occurred when Labour was in power.

Before you start sputtering and swearing into your screen, remember that following these 2 economic disasters, we had a Conservative Government of Margaret Thatcher for 11 years (May 1978 - November 1990) and we still have a Conservative Government in place now, 10 years after the Crash.

What this tells us that people don't trust Labour to run the economy. So why should they trust a Labour Government under Jeremy Corbyn?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:59 am

Austerity?

android · Post by **android** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:04 am

fidelcastro wrote:You seem to be suggesting that whether Corbyn "supported" the IRA was a matter of opinion. It isn't.

He NEVER supported them.

It's just a FACT.

A bit desperate that. It seems obvious to a lot of people that Corbyn was an IRA supporter. He did not celebrate their murders but he did support their cause. He was willing to turn a blind eye to their violence, as he does with any of the causes he supports (Hamas, Russia and so on).

The idea that he is/was some sort of peace envoy mediating between both sides is laughable. There was only one side he was willing to help.

Still, if you honestly believe that Corbyn was not an IRA supporter I am not going to call you a liar.

standishclarets · Post by **standishclarets** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:06 am

Austerity only followed the 2008 Crash. Would there have been Austerity if there hadn't been a Financial Crash?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:09 am

standishclarets wrote:Austerity only followed the 2008 Crash. Would there have been Austerity if there hadn't been a Financial Crash?

The Tories would have found another excuse.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:19 am

The Tories stand for low welfare (amongst some good things it has to be said)

There is a balance between the Lab full on and the Tory cuts, but no one has managed to find it yet.

And no one will until they abandon ideological driven policies.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:33 am

Inchy wrote:If Corbyn was replaced by a younger man with less baggage, less sh*t to sling, but with the same policies and a better suit I bet labour would walk the next election.

If only labour would realise this. They don’t need Corbyn. He could even be in the background pulling the strings. Unfortunately the written press is always going to have a story on Corbyn. That’s the game and as much as labour don’t like it they are not going to change the rules of the game unless they got in power.
Get in power with a decent leader then step down and let Corbyn step up. Game over

I don't agree with this from a tactical perspective. Had any of the other leadership candidates beaten Corbyn they would have been thrown into the press mincing machine too. The only thing that would get the press onside is if Labour moved to the right of the Tories. It was Blair taking Labour to the right that won him the support of Murdoch (along with the fact the Tories were unelectable). And this also resulted in the hollowing out of Labour Party membership.

By riding out the storm Corbyn's position has become stronger. There isn't anything left for the press to hit him with other than recycled stories, whereas a new Labour leader would come with the inevitable new set of weak points which the media would press its finger into regularly from the off. Corbyn now has a teflon outer shell. Those who hate him would never vote for a real Labour Party anyway, but his supporters could be shown photographs of him relaxing on his allotment with Satan and the ghost of Hitler, and they'd still call it a Daily Mail smear campaign. Those in the middle, many of whom only engage their minds about politics during an election, will be won over by Labour policies in contrast to whatever the Tories cobble together, and the fact that Corbyn in his own voice doesn't whatsoever resemble the monster the press has painted him to be.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:43 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:I've thought it for a while now, but Ed Miliband's Labour really should have won the general election in 2015. We would't be in the mess we're in now if they had. You can trace an awful lot of today's chaos back to the Conservatives wining that general election.

The right wing press at the time were absolutely hysterical about him becoming PM. Remember the disgraceful garbage the Mail printed about his Dad being a communist who hated Britain? The Sun splitting their sides about the way he ate a bacon sandwich? They did everything they could to discredit him (sound familiar?) and the Conservatives ended up winning with a slight majority, unexpectedly. This then led to Corbyn becoming leader of the Labour party, the Conservatives with enough power to unleash the Brexit referendum, and the rest is history.

The truth is he had some decent policies that would have pleased the 'centrists' as well as some which were centre-left, but the right wing press wouldn't tolerate it.

The major reason for losing that election was Labour's complete implosion in their previous fiefdom of Scotland, where they lost 40 seats to the SNP, due to their complacency going back many years .....
The Conservatives cannily targeting various Lib Dem seats, mainly in the South West, and of the 34 seats the Lib Dems lost, the Tories picked up 23 of them, compared to Labour's 11 ( which included Burnley ) ...

standishclarets · Post by **standishclarets** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:52 am

Why does a Labour Government under Jeremy Corbyn worry me?

During the Winter of Discontent, there were wide-spread strikes by public sector trade unions demanding larger pay rises. Labour under James Callaghan had introduced pay caps to try and control inflation. So, basically it became a battle of who runs the country, an elected Government or powerful Trade Unions. You could argue that the same scenario happened with the ultimate confrontation between Margaret Thatcher and Arthur Scargill and the Miners Union (whatever your views may be on this).

Parallel situation today? Well, for starters, you have the Labour MP Laura Smith (a Frontbench MP) calling for a national general strike (last one was in 1926) to topple the current Government and she received a standing ovation.

You have Derek Hatton (who got kicked out of Labour 33 years ago because of his militant stance) re-joining because he feels the time is now right.

You have Jeremy Corbyn giving eye-watering pay increases to his small team of aides with some receiving 26%, taking their pay in some cases over £100,000., despite JC supporting a campaign to bring down the rich!

Finally, you are not hearing much from the trade unions. No, they are quite quiet, obviously biding their time. That is the real worry.

fatboy47 · Post by **fatboy47** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:29 pm

I love working class folk that vote for their masters...I think they're dead cute...That Corbyn chap just wants to get his mitts on that 10 bob you've got in your post office account.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:13 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:He didn't support the IRA. The IRA were blowing people up. If he supported the IRA he'd be supporting that. He didn't support that, because he didn't support the IRA.
Saying he supported the IRA is a lie, and anyone who says he did is a liar.

My mate on FB harps on about Corbyn and the IRA being in cahoots all the time and posts pictures of him with Adams and McGuiness....do you think I should unfriend him

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:30 am

Steve1956 wrote:My mate on FB harps on about Corbyn and the IRA being in cahoots all the time and posts pictures of him with Adams and McGuiness....do you think I should unfriend him

I wouldn’t have any friends left on there

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:31 am

Inchy wrote:I wouldn’t have any friends left on there

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:35 am

burnleymik wrote:He is elected as an MEP. He could easily do what the other folks on the gravy train are doing and defending the Eu with everything they have. people like the Kinnocks...

Or he could take the money and do nothing for his constituents, it’s unbelievable how gullible some folk are

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:13 pm

joey13 wrote:Or he could take the money and do nothing for his constituents, it’s unbelievable how gullible some folk are

If you think Farage does nothing then claiming someone else is gullible in the same sentence, is quite funny, but hey, don't let your hate for the man get in the way of facts.