Leicester helicopter crash

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:38 pm

Some horrendous footage released. They definitely knew their fate.

Looks dodgy as it tries taking off. Huge ploom of smoke as it takes off.

Carport · Post by **Carport** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:59 pm

claretandy wrote:AKA, his mistress.

Totally inappropriate disrespectful comment.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:02 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Some horrendous footage released. They definitely knew their fate.

Looks dodgy as it tries taking off. Huge ploom of smoke as it takes off.

engine start

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:07 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:engine start

Shows what I know. Id have called the aa at that point

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:14 pm

Spijed wrote:Dan Roan:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/bbc- ... 75146.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Could be costly.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:03 pm

deanothedino wrote:There's not much you can do if you lose lift in an aircraft either, you're just very unlikely to lose both wings.

From what's been reported it sounds like an engine failure, but as soon as the tail rotor stops a conventional helicopter will just spin. He might have had some limited control with feathering the rotorblades but like you say... unlikely he would have been able to truly know what the result of that would be.

It wasn’t an engine failure, if it had have been the pilot could have dropped the collective and auto rotated to an emergency landing which they would most likely have survived. From the footage, it looks like the tail rotor failed as the aircraft transitioned into forward flight which is the point of maximum stress on the transmission. Once the tail rotor goes you are basically a passenger to the ensuing fireball and, not to denigrate the pilot, there is no chance he ‘manoeuvred to avoid the fans’ as he had no control over the aircraft. Btw, the main rotor is connected to the tail rotor via a gearbox so if one is spinning, the other one should be too.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:13 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Some horrendous footage released. They definitely knew their fate.

Looks dodgy as it tries taking off. Huge ploom of smoke as it takes off.

Horrible footage. I thought the sky news footage was bad earlier, but the one doing the rounds on WhatsApp is difficult to watch

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:20 pm

It can't be "costly", can it ?

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:04 pm

Isn’t Dan Roan a Burnley fan or am I thinking of another BBC sports editor?

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:13 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:Isn’t Dan Roan a Burnley fan or am I thinking of another BBC sports editor?

It's Christian Fraser.

THEWELLERNUT70 · Post by **THEWELLERNUT70** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:44 pm

https://www.facebook.com/10001017613824 ... 032227328/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Horrendous, absolutely horrendous. The tail blade goes and from that point on there's absolutely nothing anyone could have done unfortunately

My heart goes out to all involved

deanothedino · Post by **deanothedino** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:56 am

BennyD wrote:It wasn’t an engine failure, if it had have been the pilot could have dropped the collective and auto rotated to an emergency landing which they would most likely have survived. From the footage, it looks like the tail rotor failed as the aircraft transitioned into forward flight which is the point of maximum stress on the transmission. Once the tail rotor goes you are basically a passenger to the ensuing fireball and, not to denigrate the pilot, there is no chance he ‘manoeuvred to avoid the fans’ as he had no control over the aircraft. Btw, the main rotor is connected to the tail rotor via a gearbox so if one is spinning, the other one should be too.

Tbf, I've not seen any footage (there wasn't any when I wrote my post). Just the witness reports that it went quiet.

Wrt the transmission being linked I've always assumed this is one of the major benefits of NOTAR.

However,

Once the tail rotor goes you are basically a passenger to the ensuing fireball

is not true. There's plenty of examples of prolonged flight without a tail rotor but forward momentum (which they won't have had here) is pretty much a necessity. One such example is https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=10493099

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:56 am

Bit unfortunate for Roan who appears to be simply clarifying off camera who was who, presumably differentiating the wife from the mistress ,though in this day and age he should have known better that anything that could be deemed in appropriate ( and let’s face it it’s bloody insensitive ) will come back to you

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:57 am

The image on you tube shows the helicopter at a steady height, then perhaps something comes away from it. It then starts slowly spinning and this gets faster as control is lost.

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:07 am

AlargeClaret wrote:Bit unfortunate for Roan who appears to be simply clarifying off camera who was who, presumably differentiating the wife from the mistress ,though in this day and age he should have known better that anything that could be deemed in appropriate ( and let’s face it it’s bloody insensitive ) will come back to you

I’m confused. It is widely accepted that she was his mistress. Once you pass away are people not allowed to talk about your misdemeanours? Feel for his wife in relation to this part of the story, imagine knowing that your husband has died alongside his bit on the side.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:15 am

I think she'd have had a pretty good idea what was going on....

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:34 am

MRG wrote:I’m confused. It is widely accepted that she was his mistress. Once you pass away are people not allowed to talk about your misdemeanours? Feel for his wife in relation to this part of the story, imagine knowing that your husband has died alongside his bit on the side.

Exactly, but in th aftermath of such a tragedy that sort of thing is generally kept in the background for “sensitivity” sake but as Eddie says I’m sure his Mrs was aware what was going on .

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:34 am

Then why is it such a big deal for people to mention it? It’s back to people being offended for the sake of being offended

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:23 am

You’re not wrong MRG , but the world we live in is an ultra sensitive touchy feely one where even the most innocent remarks and asides can cause twitter mob rage.
Hopefully the bbc will see it for what it was and move on

theroyaldyche · Post by **theroyaldyche** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:28 am

Damo wrote:Horrible footage. I thought the sky news footage was bad earlier, but the one doing the rounds on WhatsApp is difficult to watch

Not exactly difficult to watch... nothing brutal about it

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:48 am

AlargeClaret wrote:You’re not wrong MRG , but the world we live in is an ultra sensitive touchy feely one where even the most innocent remarks and asides can cause twitter mob rage.
Hopefully the bbc will see it for what it was and move on

This path was not my intent with my "factual" reporting of this other passenger, as at that point in the thread she hadn't been mentioned, which I corrected, and added her background because it was a couple of UK papers that I used to source the information that had described her that way. Reading it back it's easy to see where probably most minds have gone, with one or two mentioning it.

Is it insensitive? I'm not sure, and as others have pointed out, there's no way his wife would have not been complicit with the "arrangement," possibly her lifestyle compensating for the fact, but she did have four kids with him, and in spite of all, she leaves this knowing that he died besides someone else, and not her....

and personally, as I said originally, the one positive out of this tragedy is that she must be thankful none of her kids were involved

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:51 am

I think the point is that after someone has just died, it's customary to treat them and their grieving family with a bit of respect. It doesn't matter if it was 'common knowledge' he was having an affair, it's respectful to not go on about it. Nothing to do with people being oversensitive, just having respect for the dead and the family of the dead.

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:54 am

"aye" well put Falcon

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:00 am

Maybe the Thai people are more relaxed about having bit on the sides?

Their culture would suggest so from my time spent there.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:42 am

Leicester fans singing "Champions of England, you made us sing that" at the memorial outside the ground. Cracking tribute.

https://twitter.com/Real_Casuals_66/sta ... 72384?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:34 pm

Is it getting a bit Princess Diana-ish now ? Does it have to be on every bulletin?

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:06 pm

deanothedino wrote:Tbf, I've not seen any footage (there wasn't any when I wrote my post). Just the witness reports that it went quiet.

Wrt the transmission being linked I've always assumed this is one of the major benefits of NOTAR.

However, is not true. There's plenty of examples of prolonged flight without a tail rotor but forward momentum (which they won't have had here) is pretty much a necessity. One such example is https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=10493099

Correct. The Gazelle, for example, has a tail fin which is aero foil shaped and at cruising speed negates the need for a tail rotor allowing virtually all the power to go to the rotor. However, in the context of the accident, once the tail rotor failed at the point of transition it was absorbing near it’s maximum amount of power. Once the anti torque moment of the tail rotor was lost it was game over as he couldn’t gain any forward speed due to the increasing rotation of the airframe.

deanothedino · Post by **deanothedino** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:35 pm

BennyD wrote:Correct. The Gazelle, for example, has a tail fin which is aero foil shaped and at cruising speed negates the need for a tail rotor allowing virtually all the power to go to the rotor. However, in the context of the accident, once the tail rotor failed at the point of transition it was absorbing near it’s maximum amount of power. Once the anti torque moment of the tail rotor was lost it was game over as he couldn’t gain any forward speed due to the increasing rotation of the airframe.

Agreed.

I've now seen that video, but it looks like it was filmed with a potato. Very hard to see what happens to the tail rotor, other than it evidently stops.

Alanstevensonsgloves · Post by **Alanstevensonsgloves** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:48 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Maybe the Thai people are more relaxed about having bit on the sides?

Their culture would suggest so from my time spent there.

Knowing a lot of Thai women through work, they are certainly not accepting of this. It is however, seen as standard by many, but not all, men.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:56 pm

theroyaldyche wrote:Not exactly difficult to watch... nothing brutal about it

Well I found it difficult to watch.
A helicopter spiralling out of control, knowing that it resulted in the death of several people.
Each to their own though

theroyaldyche · Post by **theroyaldyche** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:53 pm

Damo wrote:Well I found it difficult to watch.
A helicopter spiralling out of control, knowing that it resulted in the death of several people.
Each to their own though

I meant in comparison to the stuff tha goes round on whatsapp

RattyClaret · Post by **RattyClaret** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:03 pm

BennyD wrote:Correct. The Gazelle, for example, has a tail fin which is aero foil shaped and at cruising speed negates the need for a tail rotor allowing virtually all the power to go to the rotor. However, in the context of the accident, once the tail rotor failed at the point of transition it was absorbing near it’s maximum amount of power. Once the anti torque moment of the tail rotor was lost it was game over as he couldn’t gain any forward speed due to the increasing rotation of the airframe.

The power is always going to the tail rotor on a gazelle it’s the amount of pitch on the blades that controls the anti torque from the main rotor head

It looks like a tail rotor pitch control failure so eauther a control rod becoming loose or a rogue electronic input to the tail rotor servo either way it’s a horrible way to go

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:18 pm

Not entirely accurate; the tail rotor, or fenestron on a Gazelle, is always spinning because it is connected to the main rotor by a gearbox. However, at about 120kts the tail is acting like an aeroplane wing and providing enough sideways ‘lift’ to balance the torque from the main rotor, thereby reducing the power absorbed by the tail rotor to nearly zero. If you had a tail rotor failure at that speed, you may not even notice it until the speed started to reduce. The amount of pitch on the main rotor creates the torque that the anti-torque tail rotor controls.

My guess is an auxiliary gearbox failure or hydraulic failure to the tail rotor.

RattyClaret · Post by **RattyClaret** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:37 pm

70 knot fwd speed if my memory serves on a gazelle

If it was a gearbox failure ie it seized up the tail would stop hence why I suggested a pitch problem

When I was in the army one of the lads I used to work with serviced a lynx that crashed like this never a good thing to happen

Poor poor do for everyone involved and condolences to everyone who lost their lives

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:55 pm

i read it was possible a drone had struck the helicopter, is that likely to have brought it down so dramatically ?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:41 am

Wile E Coyote wrote:i read it was possible a drone had struck the helicopter, is that likely to have brought it down so dramatically ?

Where did you read that?

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:40 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Where did you read that?

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/footbal ... drone-news" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Police unsurprisingly saying it wasn't there drone but something on the videos is clearly seen coming away from the helicoptor

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:52 am

Excellent, we've gone full tinfoil hat in less than 5 days.

deanothedino · Post by **deanothedino** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:53 am

BennyD wrote:Not entirely accurate; the tail rotor, or fenestron on a Gazelle, is always spinning because it is connected to the main rotor by a gearbox. However, at about 120kts the tail is acting like an aeroplane wing and providing enough sideways ‘lift’ to balance the torque from the main rotor, thereby reducing the power absorbed by the tail rotor to nearly zero. If you had a tail rotor failure at that speed, you may not even notice it until the speed started to reduce. The amount of pitch on the main rotor creates the torque that the anti-torque tail rotor controls.

My guess is an auxiliary gearbox failure or hydraulic failure to the tail rotor.

Fenestron fan casings are a cambered aerofoil, it acts like an aircraft wing (which are also typically cambered aerofoils) at all speeds. It's just a matter of at what airspeed does it generate a significant enough horizontal lift force to counteract the torque of the main rotor blades.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:10 am

bumba wrote:https://www.express.co.uk/sport/footbal ... drone-news

Police unsurprisingly saying it wasn't there drone but something on the videos is clearly seen coming away from the helicoptor

If a drone crashed into a helicopter, do you think the drone would come off unscathed?

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:19 am

The pictures show something falling away from the helicopter just before it starts spinning.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:10 am

Sproggy wrote:The pictures show something falling away from the helicopter just before it starts spinning.

Possibly the bit of the helicopter that was supposed to stop it spinning?

If the police still have a drone, then clearly they didn't fly it into the helicopter. And if their drone has been wrecked, then they won't be able to produce it when asked so they would be pretty stupid denying that it was flying.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:04 pm

deanothedino wrote:Fenestron fan casings are a cambered aerofoil, it acts like an aircraft wing (which are also typically cambered aerofoils) at all speeds. It's just a matter of at what airspeed does it generate a significant enough horizontal lift force to counteract the torque of the main rotor blades.

I found that speed to be in the region of 110-130kts.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:14 pm

Sproggy wrote:The pictures show something falling away from the helicopter just before it starts spinning.

The only thing I can see is the anti clonk beacon reflecting against the rotor. This appears to stop when the aircraft starts spinning due to the change in angle of the main rotor.

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:08 pm

dsr wrote:Possibly the bit of the helicopter that was supposed to stop it spinning?

Maybe. Or maybe not.

If the police still have a drone, then clearly they didn't fly it into the helicopter. And if their drone has been wrecked, then they won't be able to produce it when asked so they would be pretty stupid denying that it was flying.

Maybe they had two identical ones. Unless no two drones are identical of course.

Or maybe someone else had a drone?

Or maybe something else happened.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:36 pm

Sproggy wrote:Maybe they had two identical ones. Unless no two drones are identical of course.

Drones will have serial numbers.

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:44 pm

dsr wrote:Drones will have serial numbers.

Which is irrelevant unless remnants of a drone is found, complete with a serial number and someone knows the serial numbers of the drones that the police own.

Not that I think it likely to be a police drone mind.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:05 pm

Sproggy wrote:Which is irrelevant unless remnants of a drone is found, complete with a serial number and someone knows the serial numbers of the drones that the police own.

Not that I think it likely to be a police drone mind.

There are records of the serial numbers of all the police drones. If all the police drones are intact, then a police drone didn't cause the crash.

RattyClaret · Post by **RattyClaret** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:35 pm

Don’t see how a drone would cause it to be honest

Even if it had hit the tail rotor would of caused some damage and a bad vibration if the blades were affected an experienced pilot would of been able to land

This looked like a total tail rotor control failure you can see from the video that the tail is still spinning so no fault with the tail rotor drive

Also when you lose the tail control it also causes a roll moment hence why the helicopter is spinning and the tail is going up and down also

Nonayforever · Post by **Nonayforever** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:08 pm

I very much doubt a drone could cause a helicopter to break up.
They are made mainly from plastic and although their rotors do create quite a fierce disturbance they are still made of plastic which would disintegrate if it collided with something like a helicopter.

There are of course large drones but they are of a type which wouldn't be anywhere near a football stadium.

I can safely say a drone would not of caused the helicopter to crash.