Heaton should return as no1 goalie

deanothedino · Post by **deanothedino** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:22 pm

Inchy wrote:Hart is proving what we all really new when we signed him. He isn’t good enough.

He punched a cross today that I could of caught and he really doesn’t seem to organise his defence.

Heaton doesn't catch crosses either.

Burnley1989 · Post by **Burnley1989** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:24 pm

LoveCurryPies wrote:Do you not think maybe Tom might just be better at organising those players in defence?

I’m not saying he is any better in the net, just that the defence was better organised.

I go gobsmacked that people think it’s Harts job to tell his defenders to do the basics....

LoveCurryPies · Post by **LoveCurryPies** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:24 pm

Inchy wrote:Hart is proving what we all really new when we signed him. He isn’t good enough.

He punched a cross today that I could of caught and he really doesn’t seem to organise his defence.

When we signed him, several City fans (on social media) said “prepare to start shipping goals”.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:25 pm

I’m not saying he does, but I reckon he is better than Hart all round.

Hart lost his form a long time ago. West Ham, a team who finished well below us last season were not breaking down doors to sign him. England wouldn’t go near him now.

In Heaton we have a player who was being fancied as a England keeper before his injury. In Hart we have someone who has already had his day.

I am not saying we are crap because of Hart, but we need to look to change something and we have run out of options in changing outfield players

LoveCurryPies · Post by **LoveCurryPies** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:27 pm

Safron wrote:Ok to please all you Heaton g#yboys I will play him next week to suit you ,why don't you all just f#ck off if you think that will make a difference

Why is Hart your boyfriend?

(silly reply to reduculous post)

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:27 pm

Burnley1989 wrote:I go gobsmacked that people think it’s Harts job to tell his defenders to do the basics....

I am gobsmacked that someone would think that a goalkeeper isn’t heavily involved in organising corners, telling defenders when a man is out wide out of their view etc etc

Anyone that has played football at any level knows how much involvement a keeper has in organising not only his defence, but the whole defensive shape of a team

d1sc0 · Post by **d1sc0** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:30 pm

There is more than just the goal keeper wrong at the moment. I'm not even sure if changing the keeper will help and on the face of it Hart has not done alot wrong however.....

One thing that sticks in my mind since Tom Heston's first game is the fact you hear him. For 90 minutes. The most vocal keeper I can remember in a long time. Is it that that is the difference?

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:31 pm

At least pick a scapegoat who played poorly.

Steddyman · Post by **Steddyman** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:39 pm

Whatever the problem is, it is Seans job to find it and correct it.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:40 pm

For me it's simple (cue long rambling...!).

No one player however good they are or how well they play is the key to us performing. When we had Charlie Austin in our team, everyone could see what a great goal scorer he was, but we had to change the way we played to accommodate his style, and IMO to the detriment of the whole team. When Charlie left we improved as a team and our results improved too.

It is similar in a sense to our goalkeeping situation. Yes, Hart is performing really well and is being viewed as a great keeper because of his performances keeping the score down, but this is as a detriment to the whole back line (again IMO) as I believe that Heaton, (and Pope, but Pope walked into a performing defence set up by Heaton and continued the style) given a chance will galvanise the back four as he had done before. I think others have said further up the thread that it could just be a matter of trust, with Hart behind them the back four are still learning (slowly) about what to expect from Hart, yet with Heaton they already know and would revert to "form" quite quickly I believe. Its not a slight at Hart, far from it - he is an outstanding keeper, but I really do think that Heaton should be back in the nets to galvanise our back four again. I do think that Hart's inability to ensure the back four perform like Heaton does is a double edged sword - it is allowing circumstances to make himself look good by having a poorer defence in front of him, if he had the back four playing as they should (like Heaton would) he wouldn't have to be outstanding in the nets to keep the score down. All my opinion of course, but I would like to see Heaton back in the nets.

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:42 pm

Inchy wrote:Hart is proving what we all really new when we signed him. He isn’t good enough.

Can I just point out that this statement is actually incorrect.

That is all. As you were.

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:16 pm

Would be harsh on Hart but we have to try something different. We need to get back to where we’ve been in the last two seasons defensively and if that means going back to the same personnel it’s got to be worth a try.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:24 pm

NL Claret wrote:Can I just point out that this statement is actually incorrect.

That is all. As you were.

Ok il change that.

Hart is proving what West Ham fans already know, Southgate already knows, Tornio fans already know, and what any Burnley fans with eyes are soon to learn. He is no longer good enough

ClaretRock · Post by **ClaretRock** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:29 pm

Inchy wrote:Ok il change that.

Hart is proving what West Ham fans already know, Southgate already knows, Tornio fans already know, and what any Burbley fan with eyes are soon to learn. He is no longer good enough

someone has been on the lash Abit too long. Hart has been our best player this season. Ive not been a fan of him previously due to his inability to deal with crosses but for us he has been excellent.

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:31 pm

Joe Hart is the best shot stopper at the club in my opinion. The problem in my mind though is that after 2 years in the wilderness his confidence has been knocked. He seems so timid to the Joe Hart of 3/4 years ago. No shouting at defenders or rollocking when mistakes cost us. I truly believe he is a shadow of himself in a leader kind of way though. After that Tarks error he should have been at him shouting

I like Hart and think he has kept scorelines down from 8 and 9s in the last 3 games but something is just amiss.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:31 pm

Being our best player this season is like winning a competition for whose sh*t stinks the least

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:32 pm

Tinribs wrote:Without Hart would have been 7’s and 8’s in all three games.
We are a shambles right thru the team defensively and offensively.
Be nice to say we were being naive and leaving ourselves open at the back but we are not even doing that ! We are setting up to defend and getting stuffed.
Massive couple of months for Dyche now.For the first time in 6 years he is looking vunerable

Bizarre views. Tom Heaton never conceded 5 for Burnley in a league game. Why do you think he would suddenly start conceding 7s and 8s now? Do you not think he is a top goalkeeper? Surely it is just possible that he would ld work better as a unit with the back four - it has worked in the past.

As I said, harsh on Hart but it must be worth a try.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:33 pm

ClaretRock wrote: someone has been on the lash Abit too long. Hart has been our best player this season. Ive not been a fan of him previously due to his inability to deal with crosses but for us he has been excellent.

Best player??

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:37 pm

Another thing I have noticed is the way our back line defend shots by narrowing angles down in seasons before this. Whether Hart hasnt had time to understand this and build up the understanding with his defence due to his late signing could be a factor.

I may be wrong but before this season I cannot recall one game in the last years 2/3 years where our keeper has had to make so many saves from shots from outside the box. This is happening every game not just this. Hart is getting MOM awards for these saves yet with Pope and Heaton they never had to make them saves because of the understanding.

The system Heaton, Pope and our defence have been so well drilled at meant these shots were always blocked from outside or if they got past them they would never be on target due to the understanding of every mans positioning and closing of angles.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:39 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:Another thing I have noticed is the way our back line defend shots by narrowing angles down in seasons before this. Whether Hart hasnt had time to understand this and build up the understanding with his defence due to his late signing could be a factor.

I may be wrong but before this season I cannot recall one game in the last years 2/3 years where our keeper has had to make so many saves from shots from outside the box. This is happening every game not just this. Hart is getting MOM awards for these saves yet with Pope and Heaton they never had to make them saves because of the understanding.

The system Heaton, Pope and our defence have been so well drilled at meant these shots were always blocked from outside or if they got past them they would never be on target due to the understanding of every mans positioning and closing of angles.

Totally agree with this we blocked everything or at least attempted to last season and before.

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:46 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:Totally agree with this we blocked everything or at least attempted to last season and before.

Well finally we agree on something ha ha.

Like I have said I really think Hart is a good goalkeeper I just dont think he has bedded in properly. Being a GK for us is so much more than just making saves. We have/had a system that was so well drilled teams watched us/ analysed it/ praised us for it.

My problem and I think it may be one or two players is is why does Dyche believe that Hart can go straight in to the side (I know Heato was injured for Europe but not S'ton) yet every other player we ever sign has to get upto speed with how the team operates.

This I believe is where there may be some discontent and if I was them I would be thinking Hart has aaid he ia only coming if he is No1. Again my opinion but football can be lonely when not playing and these thoughts will go through the likes of Heatons head. I mean he was fit, he was ready but didnt get picked. Any other of our stalwarts anywhere on the pitch would have been straight back in

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:47 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:Another thing I have noticed is the way our back line defend shots by narrowing angles down in seasons before this. Whether Hart hasnt had time to understand this and build up the understanding with his defence due to his late signing could be a factor.

I may be wrong but before this season I cannot recall one game in the last years 2/3 years where our keeper has had to make so many saves from shots from outside the box. This is happening every game not just this. Hart is getting MOM awards for these saves yet with Pope and Heaton they never had to make them saves because of the understanding.

The system Heaton, Pope and our defence have been so well drilled at meant these shots were always blocked from outside or if they got past them they would never be on target due to the understanding of every mans positioning and closing of angles.

Nail on head with this, and I don’t often agree with you.

Our team needs to be greater than the sum of its parts because we can’t afford massive “value” players - however well Hart can be perceived to be performing, the back 5 isn’t, yet previously with Heaton or Pope it was proven to be.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:50 pm

When's Pope fit ?

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:52 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:Nail on head with this, and I don’t often agree with you.

Our team needs to be greater than the sum of its parts because we can’t afford massive “value” players - however well Hart can be perceived to be performing, the back 5 isn’t, yet previously with Heaton or Pope it was proven to be.

Building up a right little fan club for myself tonight ha ha.

The other thing not so much with Heaton but with Pope was we never minded conceding corners because we knew Pope would collect it and kill 20 secs time wasting time or to let us get back into shape.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:53 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:Building up a right little fan club for myself tonight ha ha.

The other thing not so much with Heaton but with Pope was we never minded conceding corners because we knew Pope would collect it and kill 20 secs time wasting time or to let us get back into shape.

Collect it and fall the on the floor rather than punch it to the opposition as Hart does.

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:58 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:Collect it and fall the on the floor rather than punch it to the opposition as Hart does.

When we gave away corners last season I used to think well by the time they take it, Pope collects, falls on floor, gets up, wastes 20 secs that would a good 90 secs eaten up. Meaning our players had a 90 sec breather every now and again allowing us to play our high tempo game. Because we arent having these breaks anymore we arent as high energy as in the past. These little clever breaks we played were so important to us and what made SD such a visionary to me and a forward thinker on the sports science aspect of the game and allowing us to play and chase down at such a high pace

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:16 pm

Ridiculous to blame Hart. I also feel a bit sorry for the defence (although silly mistakes today)... 22 shots for West Ham, we are failing to even hold onto the ball. If our defence is under constant pressure there is no doubt they will make some mistakes, it's inevitable.

This is far more than just the defence/keeper if even West Ham can tear us apart with 22 attempts at goal, 10 on target.

Cleveleys_claret · Post by **Cleveleys_claret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:48 pm

What doesnt help neither is Westwood just seems lost. He is never where he should be, or stepping on another players toes. Zero positional awareness. Never knows where he is supposed to be meaning our centre halves are exposed time and time again

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:09 pm

We are missing a captain who all players follow. Heaton must play.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Giftonsnoidea wrote:Did you not see Heaton play against Man U two seasons ago?

Yes seen him play lots, Heets is as agile or as big. As good as Heets is some of those shots Hart saved today Heets would not have got to them.
Pope may have done.

The outfield players are not doing the job they have been in previous season, why I have no idea.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:43 pm

The Buck stops with Billy Mercer.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:50 pm

Dyche should know who is organising the defence, not sure he does though

BFC88 · Post by **BFC88** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:54 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Hart did nothing wrong today and if Heaton had been between the sticks I am afraid it would have been 6-7.

Utter tosh

Heaton is a much better keeper than Hart - he commands his area, barks at his defence and actually catches the ball.
Unfortunately Dyche wont put Heaton in unless theres an injury, which is a joke.

Stephen Ward is a huge miss to our defence as well. The sooner hes back the better.

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:10 pm

Three feet first attempted saves by Hart.Heaton has to start next week.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:19 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Hart did nothing wrong today and if Heaton had been between the sticks I am afraid it would have been 6-7.

I admire your optimism. That's a heck of an away win!!!

HunterST_BFC · Post by **HunterST_BFC** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:21 pm

Heaton number 1 for me. Said it before. or Pope when back.

We signed Hart with good reason apparently after a calf strain to Heaton - as Hart would not take another loan.
SD clearly decided signing Hart was better than turning to other fit in house options.
(I wish had kept faith with what he had available at the time... even a younster)

Heaton was fit - a minor calf injury - yet deemed fit enough to sit on the bench two weeks later.
If this isn't going to p iss off Heaton and our other keepers and probably other players..... it is?

Buggering around with team selections in the Europ' L' - didn't help either imho.
Popes' injury had a massive effect in some thinking...
Panic.
Truth is we shopped bargain basement all summer in other areas on the pitch. etc etc etc

SD was left short in all the areas everyone knew about. Keeper just being bad luck.
SD hasn't got many option to change it really.

We are Burnley I know but surely we should have got better deals done over the summer.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:58 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:When we gave away corners last season I used to think well by the time they take it, Pope collects, falls on floor, gets up, wastes 20 secs that would a good 90 secs eaten up. Meaning our players had a 90 sec breather every now and again allowing us to play our high tempo game. Because we arent having these breaks anymore we arent as high energy as in the past. These little clever breaks we played were so important to us and what made SD such a visionary to me and a forward thinker on the sports science aspect of the game and allowing us to play and chase down at such a high pace

If the "vision" is making accountants happy by staying in the Premier League through this tactic while giving fans just 35 minutes of football within the supposed 90 by wasting time, count me out.

tybfc · Post by **tybfc** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:21 am

Not long back since getting up at 5am on Saturday for the trek to London's worst ground ever and I haven't the energy to read through every post on this thread but there are some interesting ones.

I was sat in a London pub at lunchtime today discussing why we have started to ship goals this season.

The two supporters from Burnley who watch virtually every home and away game agreed with me that the lack of confidence in our defence comes from the lack of Tom Heaton and the introduction of Joe Hart.

In my mind Hart is a great keeper. But you have to categorise what a keeper does.

Heaton never stops as captain encouraging his defence and midfield where he wants them.

If anything goes wrong he continues to encourage.

Hart doesn't speak to the rest of his team.

If he concedes a goal he either kicks the goal post down or screams at his defence as he did at Ben Mee this afternoon.

He comes across as a player that wants to play for himself.

Not for Burnley I'm afraid.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:31 am

tybfc wrote:Not long back since getting up at 5am on Saturday for the trek to London's worst ground ever and I haven't the energy to read through every post on this thread but there are some interesting ones.

I was sat in a London pub at lunchtime today discussing why we have started to ship goals this season.

The two supporters from Burnley who watch virtually every home and away game agreed with me that the lack of confidence in our defence comes from the lack of Tom Heaton and the introduction of Joe Hart.

In my mind Hart is a great keeper. But you have to categorise what a keeper does.

Heaton never stops as captain encouraging his defence and midfield where he wants them.

If anything goes wrong he continues to encourage.

Hart doesn't speak to the rest of his team.

If he concedes a goal he either kicks the goal post down or screams at his defence as he did at Ben Mee this afternoon.

He comes across as a player that wants to play for himself.

Not for Burnley I'm afraid.

Utter utter b0llocks

tybfc · Post by **tybfc** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:34 am

fidelcastro wrote:Utter utter b0llocks

Thanks for your lovely reply.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:35 am

fidelcastro wrote:Utter utter b0llocks

F***ing right it is.

Stevie Morgan · Post by **Stevie Morgan** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:54 am

ElectroClaret wrote:F***ing right it is.

Don't think it is actually. We tried to get Hart on loan at first and he didn't want this - which is fair enough - so we decided to sign him permanently. I think we will regret this decision. Not because Hart isn't a decent keeper, but because of its effect on less tangible elements which have been important to our success. Such as Heaton's leadership, even while he has been out of the team last season, team unity and authority in communicating/organising the defence.

Hart is a more volatile/excitable character and has a more erratic style - more spectacular saves, more errors and does not inspire the same confidence in the crowd or the team, and he does not command the same respect that Heaton/Pope did due to their different personalities and styles.

Unfortunately I think it is now too late to drop Hart unless he drops some real clangers, because that really would be hanging him out to dry at this stage, and Heaton would be under incredible scrutiny.

I also think this is only one of many things which are hurting us. There is a massive drop off in intensity across the team, and the team needed freshening up much more in the transfer window.

yorkyclaret · Post by **yorkyclaret** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:06 am

Way too slow coming off his line for the last goal today. There could be a reason, that we don't know about, why SD isn't playing Heats.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:27 am

Good shot stopper.

Awful allround goal keeper.

ontario claret · Post by **ontario claret** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:36 am

I agree with the OP. Hart lays too deep in the net, which makes him vulnerable to low shots to the corners. That's where he usually gets beat. Also, he likes to showboat. He makes what would be an average save by another keeper, and then launches himself into the air and does three twists on the way down, for a score of 9.5 by the Russian judge. Just not good enough fundamentals.

ashtonlongsider · Post by **ashtonlongsider** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:23 am

Sometimes it's the personalities in the team that adds to be sum of the parts. Joe Hart has been nothing less than exceptional for us and has proved to be a great goalkeeper. However, at present we are a rudderless ship heading for the rocks. Could Heaton's leadership qualities and defensive organisation make the difference? He is interwoven into the fabric of our club and the heartbeat. He was good enough to be on standby for the WC squad this summer and I recall thinking during our memorable home match against Olympiakos, how refreshing it was to have his presence back.

Terry Cochrane · Post by **Terry Cochrane** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:49 am

kindonesque wrote:100 per cent for sure. Heaton is a rock. Hart is a showman

Apart from the fact he doesn’t support a false red nose and size 20 boots I’m not sure what you mean by “showman”. If you are saying that he takes centre stage too much well yes. When the defence crumble in front of you so often you become a busy man.

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:57 am

Our best keeper is Pope and once fit should take back the No1 spot. Pope commands his area far better than both Heaton and Hart

Hart was brought in because we were desperate and it is not healthy having 3 top keepers fighting for the same spot, so one has to go.

But who?

EarbyClaret · Post by **EarbyClaret** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:15 am

I can't see much difference in Hart's strengths and weaknesses as a 'keeper throughout his career.

He's not suddenly going to become a communicator and an organiser, that's never been required of him.

The club were in a difficult goalkeeping situation and had to do something. Buying Hart was not the ideal solution but it was probably the best we could do at the time.

The problem seems to be we've failed to take into account the difference in goalkeeping styles and adapt the way we play.

Individually both goalkeeper and outfield players are good enough but at the moment we're experiencing the worst of both worlds where we don't seem to be able to work out a way of playing to the strengths of any of them.

Goody1975 · Post by **Goody1975** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:22 am

Top Claret wrote:Our best keeper is Pope and once fit should take back the No1 spot. Pope commands his area far better than both Heaton and Hart

Hart was brought in because we were desperate and it is not healthy having 3 top keepers fighting for the same spot, so one has to go.

But who?

We will probably have to keep one of them and lose two by the summer. Pope was prepared to be bench warmer until his elevation to England player but neither he or Heaton will stay as understudy for any period of time, the only unlikely option is them agreeing to go out on loan. Pope isn't going to leave anytime soon, until he is 100% over his injury but once fit he won't be banging on the managers door for sure.

Dyche will have to start searching for another young backup keeper to fulfil bench duties and decide who he thinks is his true No.1