Anyone feel a tinge of sympathy for Theresa May ?

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:58 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:I note from this post and your earlier post that you are crucially confusing constituents with voters. An MP represents the constituency and ALL those who live in it. MPs aren't delegates for those who voted for them.
In addition to voters, (i.e. those eligible and registered to vote), they also represent all those under 18 who aren't allowed to vote, those over 18 who were too young to vote at the last election or referendum, those who aren't British citizens and therefore can't vote etc. etc.
They have to reach a decision based on what they believe is in the long-term interests of the constituency as a whole, therefore if the constituency happens to have relied on a lot of EU funding, or due to its industries or services may be heavily reliant on trade with the EU, then that MP might give extra weight to this.
It has always been made absolutely clear that MPs are independent and are not sent by their constituents as delegates.

funny how few of the brexit posse understand that.

biggles · Post by **biggles** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:32 pm

MPs are independent? don't make me laugh, mate. and don't fall for the bullshit they spout; you'd think they'd all had their 'lie/bulllshit/cheat/con/self-promote/fraud etc' function disabled the way some people espouse them.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:41 pm

This is very very different to normal due to there being a referendum. This is why labour are **** scared to come off the fence.

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:42 pm

aggi wrote:It's the equivalent of if Remain had won 52-48 and people had started saying that meant the will of the people was that the country wanted schengen and the Euro. Weirdly I think a lot of the rabid brexiteers would be less on-board with that.

No doubt they'd be furious. But then again those people are constantly angry.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:50 pm

403 leave constituencies out of 650. Says it all. Many mps are putting party and personal interest before country. Shame on them.

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:58 pm

summitclaret wrote:403 leave constituencies out of 650. Says it all. Many mps are putting party and personal interest before country. Shame on them.

That's no logic at all. If it was then i could just say 2 out of 4 countries voted to stay and call it a tie.

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:09 pm

We. Hold. All. The. Cards.

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:21 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Ditto about the rabid remainer's who are having to go even further to get their point across when it looks like their losing and nobody is listening.

If we could get a good deal then great but it's obvious we can't, move on and get the hell out of their sharpish.

Even Germany is in recession now according to Twitter.

"According to Twitter"

Who on Twitter?

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:32 pm

Anyone wondering about an MPs “duty” to their constituents should google Edmund Burke’s address to the electors of Bristol.

How long now before May’s deal is voted down, and we begin the planning for the second referendum?

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:39 pm

This passage is especially good (bold font for emphasis).

Edmund Burke wrote:Certainly, gentlemen, it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:46 pm

South West Claret. wrote:Sympathy for a Tory?..I've seen some silly titles on here but really.

I've seen some silly comments on here, but really ...

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:55 pm

Thank you Andrew and Spiral for bringing Burke into it. I had considered citing him in my earlier post but felt I could make my point without it, and was too lazy to google the quote provided.
To his wise words might I add the following from another much respected source:
["The first duty of an MP is to do what he [or she] thinks … is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate.”
(Sir Winston Churchill)

biggles · Post by **biggles** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:55 pm

she's really screwed Brexit up [no doubt as she intended to all along]. being a committed remainer she's, more than likely, in collusion with the EU to get the softest Brexit that she thinks she can get away with [leaving us as closely linked to the EU as possible, probably with a long-term plan to reverse Brexit as soon as the dust settles]. maybe this is another reason she, wrongly, excluded other parties' MPs from being involved. i think she's made such a massive hash of Brexit that no-one is, nor will be, happy with the outcome. that's my view/opinion/conspiracy theory! i mean, she's smart enough to become PM so surely she cannot equally be so stupid to get to the point where we are now without putting a lot of effort into it!!

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:00 pm

One thing I've not really seen explained is what do these MPs have to gain by voting to remain. What personal interest are they serving?

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:01 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Thank you Andrew and Spiral for bringing Burke into it. I had considered citing him in my earlier post but felt I could make my point without it, and was too lazy to google the quote provided.
To his wise words might I add the following from another much respected source:
["The first duty of an MP is to do what he [or she] thinks … is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate.”
(Sir Winston Churchill)

Could you send that quote from Churchill to Jeremy Corbyn, Diane Abbott, Jeremy Corbyn and in particular, Barbara Roche, the immigration minister under Mr Blair, please ? It seems obvious they've not read it .....

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:14 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Could you send that quote from Churchill to Jeremy Corbyn, Diane Abbott, Jeremy Corbyn and in particular, Barbara Roche, the immigration minister under Mr Blair, please ? It seems obvious they've not read it .....

Also, don't forget Jeremy Corbyn.

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:15 pm

aggi wrote:One thing I've not really seen explained is what do these MPs have to gain by voting to remain. What personal interest are they serving?

Shhhhh... don't think, only feel.

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:26 pm

On the amendment:

Ayes 600
Noes 24

So close.

Next up, May's Mayhem

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:41 pm

Eyes: 432
Knows: 202

Tough ****.

Buxtonclaret · Post by **Buxtonclaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:41 pm

Order!
Order!

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:41 pm

Buxtonclaret wrote:Order!
Order!

Orduuuuurrrr!

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:49 pm

Test User wrote:Shhhhh... don't think, only feel.

She said.

Joey is no kant · Post by **Joey is no kant** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:53 pm

At the start of the negotiations she said that the European commission would find her a very difficult person to deal with since then they have run rings around her,time to go.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:53 pm

I do feel some sympathy. Knowing you're even more incompetent than Cameron has to hurt.

jurek · Post by **jurek** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:53 pm

Now the real fun and games begin!

It's pretty entertaining if you look at it from one particular perspective.
However, if you look at it from another angle it's downright depressing.

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:56 pm

The intelligent, fixing the mistakes of the stupid, as it was always going to be

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:58 pm

biggles wrote:she's really screwed Brexit up [no doubt as she intended to all along]. being a committed remainer she's, more than likely, in collusion with the EU to get the softest Brexit that she thinks she can get away with [leaving us as closely linked to the EU as possible, probably with a long-term plan to reverse Brexit as soon as the dust settles]. maybe this is another reason she, wrongly, excluded other parties' MPs from being involved. i think she's made such a massive hash of Brexit that no-one is, nor will be, happy with the outcome. that's my view/opinion/conspiracy theory! i mean, she's smart enough to become PM so surely she cannot equally be so stupid to get to the point where we are now without putting a lot of effort into it!!

I don’t think there was any intention on her part to scupper Brexit. The reason (in my opinion) she didn’t involve other parties was she saw an opportunity to repay Tory donors, by gutting workers rights, environmental safeguards, regulations on business, and lower taxes for the rich. Why else would she seek an increased majority other than to give herself a weakened opposition, and five years to finish the job? Had she been wanting to stop Brexit she would have involved other parties as a means of “uniting the nation” and then blamed it on everyone else.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:59 pm

Matthew Hancock the health secretary being interviewed on BBC making a complete t@t. Embarrassing and inept the lot of them!

strayclaret · Post by **strayclaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:00 pm

Test User wrote:We. Hold. All. The. Cards.

Michael Gove

now there’s a turncoat and a snake in the grass

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:01 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:Matthew Hancock the health secretary being interviewed on BBC making a complete t@t. Embarrassing and inept the lot of them!

I can't stand Andrew Neil and think he's a smarmy c.unt, but he's taking a scalpel to Hancock's script, here.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:03 pm

No again.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:05 pm

A record defeat for a government. Perhaps May will be remembered by history after all?

Buxtonclaret · Post by **Buxtonclaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:19 pm

AndrewJB wrote:A record defeat for a government. Perhaps May will be remembered by history after all?

She will be remembered as being utterly inept.
The width and depth of her abilities have been dwarfed by the stubborn arrogance she's shown in all this mess.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:37 pm

"Its aaaaa puppetttt" .....

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:39 pm

Test User wrote:Eyes: 432
Knows: 202

Diane Abbott still trying to work out who has won !

Buxtonclaret · Post by **Buxtonclaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:46 pm

TVC15 wrote:Diane Abbott still trying to work out who has won !

AngleseyClaret · Post by **AngleseyClaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:12 pm

Democracy has died tonight

Test User · Post by **Test User** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:12 pm

AngleseyClaret wrote:Democracy has died tonight

Bless

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:31 pm

Some unusual bedfellows in the voting lobbies tonight ...... Jacon Rees Mogg next to Dennis Skinner, Boris Johnson next to Diane Abbott, Jeremy Corbyn next to the DUP MP's , the small talk must have been riveting !

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:38 pm

There is an alternative view of what happened tonight and that is that our MPs have (quite rightly) rejected THE EUs BREXIT WITHDRAWAL OFFER (£39 billion, trapped in the backstop, no draft trade deal etc) and we can now proceed to discuss a less complicated, cheaper and more of a 'clean break' exit solution.

Buxtonclaret · Post by **Buxtonclaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:51 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Some unusual bedfellows in the voting lobbies tonight ...... Jacon Rees Mogg next to Dennis Skinner, Boris Johnson next to Diane Abbott, Jeremy Corbyn next to the DUP MP's , the small talk must have been riveting !

Boris wouldn't have minded, they weren't there like long enough for Abbott to construct her sentence.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:53 pm

Hancocks half hour only adding to the comedy spectacle that is Theresa May's Brexit Deal.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:56 pm

Mala591 wrote:There is an alternative view of what happened tonight and that is that our MPs have (quite rightly) rejected THE EUs BREXIT WITHDRAWAL OFFER (£39 billion, trapped in the backstop, no draft trade deal etc) and we can now proceed to discuss a less complicated, cheaper and more of a 'clean break' exit solution.

Blitz Brexit with Suez aftermath? Nice. I think the country can get right behind this.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:11 pm

This is Dunkirk/Dieppe/Yugoslavia/Greece/Crete/Singapore all rolled into one to be perfectly honest.

This is a country wrecker and its going to get worse

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:13 pm

Buxtonclaret wrote:Boris wouldn't have minded, they weren't there like long enough for Abbott to construct her sentence.

Jacob wouldn't have been rude enough to approach anyone, because they hadn't yet been formally introduced, Skinner wouldn't talk to any of " them Tory b*$@ards " in any event, Boris would be trying to decide which of the Labour lady members had the " biggest rack ", Diane Abbott would be trying to count the number of votes but gives up after 20 once her shoes have come off and the 8 DUP members surround Corbyn and McDonnell and treat them to several lusty chorus's of " The Sash my father wore " and " The Blue sea of Ibrox " ....

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:25 pm

"This is Dunkirk/Dieppe/Yugoslavia/Greece/Crete/Singapore all rolled into one to be perfectly honest"

Good job then that we have Captain Maywaring and the Dad's Army platoon ready to man the barricades.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:29 pm

The Women gets more ridiculous every time she opens her mouth

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:43 pm

Test User wrote:We. Hold. All. The. Cards.

Winter is coming that much is true.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:51 pm

Mala591 wrote:There is an alternative view of what happened tonight and that is that our MPs have (quite rightly) rejected THE EUs BREXIT WITHDRAWAL OFFER (£39 billion, trapped in the backstop, no draft trade deal etc) and we can now proceed to discuss a less complicated, cheaper and more of a 'clean break' exit solution.

Like much of this debate, I’m laughing, but not sure at what...

Claret-On-A-T-Rex · Post by **Claret-On-A-T-Rex** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:57 pm

Mala591 wrote:There is an alternative view of what happened tonight and that is that our MPs have (quite rightly) rejected THE EUs BREXIT WITHDRAWAL OFFER (£39 billion, trapped in the backstop, no draft trade deal etc) and we can now proceed to discuss a less complicated, cheaper and more of a 'clean break' exit solution.

Clean break with our largest trading partner, closest neighbours and biggest trading block. Yeah right.
Another ridiculous brexit fantasy, it should be called "certain suicide."