May's EU speech

[HatfieldClaret]

Corbyn had his opportunities but has the wherewithal of a Dutch army officer at Srebrenica

[brexit]

Just one point brexit, and that is to remind you that the 70 billion a year is with the EU as a bloc, not each individual nation state.
It's not quite as simple as to say divide 70 billion by 27, but clearly non of the countries will lose anywhere near 70 billion , in what in any case is a market worth trillions. Some of the 27 won't be worried at all about this figure because it won't impact on them at all. Other countries like Germany would take a hit, (about 27 billion according to the stats that you provide), but, bear in mind they were quite prepared to do so over Greece, and in any case, it won't matter what the Germans want if they can't persuade all the other states to agree.
I genuinely hope that Mrs May's team can pull this off, and she has quite rightly set the bar high, but I'm not optimistic. What would be in it for the dozen or so states who are net importers from the UK or are pretty much neutral?

I agree that the figures can be interpreted in many ways. My point is there is a potential lose on both sides.

P.S. Nice to have a rational conversation on this message board for once. But I suspect that Trolls 'R' Us are sleeping off last night victory under a canal bridge somewhere.

[JohnMcGreal]

Nice to have a rational conversation on this message board for once.

The issue with this messageboard is that the majority of the posters have never had girlfriends (or in some cases boyfriends).
Those of us who have had relationships understand what breakups are like.
First the period of realisation - one party is happy with the outcome the other is in denial , sniffing pillows hoping that the other party will change there mind.
Second period of anger - slag of the other party and forecast the future will be bleak. Friends play both sides off against the other.
Third period of negotiation - who has the cat, the signed Limahl album and the friends. The best course here is to say you want a clean start and maybe still bang the sister-in-law. Other party seems to have got everything but when they think about it need something from you i.e.how the Tivo box work they come crawling
Fourth period - separate lives, move on both parties happy bumo into each other at local dogging spots - usually walking the dogs in Heasonford.

[brexit]

Was that you in the white XR3i last night JohnMcGreal?

[ClaretMoffitt]

Just watched PMQs (rare day off midweek).

Begs the question; What is the point of Jeremy Corbyn ? Protesting for protestings sake. Offers nothing to the solutions but just criticises because that's what he thinks he has to do. Doesn't seem to understand that there will be access to the single market but the terms of that access has to be negotiated.

He, and his party really are proving themselves to be utterly useless.

[brexit]

Oops my mistake have reliably been informed it was a Sierra Cosworth.

[AndrewJB]

Corbyn has smashed May up the last four or five PMQs, but didn't go in for the kill today. The blog Another Angry Voice made a good point about May's speech on Tuesday:

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk ... e.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

All Corbyn has done is attack her on the NHS, which is an easy target and he still f**ks up the rest of the week.

He's utter garbage as leader of the opposition, which is the main reason the tories can get away with what they want.

[Colburn_Claret]

Corbyn has smashed May up the last four or five PMQs, but didn't go in for the kill today. The blog Another Angry Voice made a good point about May's speech on Tuesday:

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk ... e.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I only read the first paragraph. What a load of tosh.
The people voted to leave the EU, even if that meant leaving the single market, no one on the Brexit side said they wanted or intended to leave the single market, just that they were prepared to if that was the outcome. It was Remainers waving their threats of doom and gloom who said a vote to leave one was a vote to leave the other.

[HatfieldClaret]

Corbyn has smashed May up the last four or five PMQs, but didn't go in for the kill today. The blog Another Angry Voice made a good point about May's speech on Tuesday:

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk ... e.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quotes taken out of context from the rest of the speeches?

You're getting mixed up between membership of the single market and access to it. We will have access, as does the rest of the world, the terms have yet to be negotiated. That's what Corbyn didn't understand.

[quoonbeatz]

nobody is getting mixed up.

everybody is aware we'll still have access. the majority also understand it will be on worse terms than we currently have.

[nil_desperandum]

I only read the first paragraph. What a load of tosh.
The people voted to leave the EU, even if that meant leaving the single market, no one on the Brexit side said they wanted or intended to leave the single market, just that they were prepared to if that was the outcome. It was Remainers waving their threats of doom and gloom who said a vote to leave one was a vote to leave the other.

In trying to justify your viewpoint that the article is "a load of tosh", you actually contradict yourself and support the statement that Mrs May was telling lies.
You write:
"No one on the Brexit side said they wanted or intended to leave the single market.........."
That's totally untrue since people like Farage and Redwood, and many on the extreme right campaigned aggressively to leave the Single market etc.
On the other hand there were many leading "leave" campaigners who stated that leaving the EU did not mean leaving the Single market.They are quoted in the article, and the quotes are verifiable, it's not just "fake news."
So when Mrs May says ""Both sides in the referendum campaign made it clear that a vote to leave the EU would be a vote to leave the Single Market.",it was - as the article stated an - "outright lie".
Edit: To me it was always obvious that you couldn't leave the EU and achieve the things that leaving was supposed to be all about and still remain in the Single market. Nevertheless there were many Brexit supporters who were going round telling people that they needn't worry about leaving the EU because we would still remain in the Single Market. This would have been sufficient to sway some waverers.

[Healeywoodclaret]

It must be quite tempting to go and join them. It must.

Absolutely. Bye Wilsden. Don't come back now!

[AndrewJB]

Quotes taken out of context from the rest of the speeches?

You're getting mixed up between membership of the single market and access to it. We will have access, as does the rest of the world, the terms have yet to be negotiated. That's what Corbyn didn't understand.

They're not taken out of context. A great many advocates of brexit insisted we'd be able to remain in the single market just as Norway is.

[dsr]

I only read the first paragraph. What a load of tosh.
The people voted to leave the EU, even if that meant leaving the single market, no one on the Brexit side said they wanted or intended to leave the single market, just that they were prepared to if that was the outcome. It was Remainers waving their threats of doom and gloom who said a vote to leave one was a vote to leave the other.

As far as I was and still am concerned, leaving the single market was a more-or-less inevitable result of leaving the EU. The single market has a plus and a minus - the plus is tariff-free access to the EU market, the minus is that we don't have tariff-free access to anywhere else. We are IMO better off dealing with the EU on the same terms as the rest of the world, while being free to trade on our terms with the rapidly expanding markets of the rest of the world.

People often talk about the free market as if it was an unmitigated benefit. It isn't. It has its advantages, and it has its disadvantages.

[Lancasterclaret]

Current list of trading partners of the EU (which we have automatically at this time)

https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-fr ... s-eu-done/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RocketLawnChair]

Current list of trading partners of the EU (which we have automatically at this time)

https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-fr ... s-eu-done/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does that link not strengthen dsr's point though Lancaster. We do not have trade deals with 3 of the top 4 economies in the world and the fourth (Germany) we buy a lot more off them than they do off us, yet we have a free trade deal with some real bottom feeders which is likely too cost you in the long run.

Quality not quantity is surely the key to any negotiation the Government enter from now on to make Brexit a success.

[Lancasterclaret]

Only posting it to make the point that we have free trade already with countries outside the EU RLC.

You are correct regarding US/China/India but remember that free trade goes both ways, and our manufacturing sector (in particular) might not fair so well.

Great news for our service industries though, but how long will we be the best at that, especially as there is now ample opportunity for other EU nations to take over our mantle within the EU?

Effectively its back to the argument (on trade ONLY btw) that the risks involved don't justify the potential gain*

*nothing to do with the arguments on taking back control and all the other arguments, and I'm not arguing against that, but again, if we are affected financially, then just how important do those things become?

[dsr]

Service industries aren't covered by the single market anyway.

[Lancasterclaret]

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... s-industry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-mark ... ervices_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The argument for better trade does not stack up, never has, never will.

Again, the argument for "taking back control" is a completely different one and one I'm not going to argue about as its basically dependent on whether you believe in the freedom of movement or not.

[Colburn_Claret]

Only posting it to make the point that we have free trade already with countries outside the EU RLC.

You are correct regarding US/China/India but remember that free trade goes both ways, and our manufacturing sector (in particular) might not fair so well.

Great news for our service industries though, but how long will we be the best at that, especially as there is now ample opportunity for other EU nations to take over our mantle within the EU?

Effectively its back to the argument (on trade ONLY btw) that the risks involved don't justify the potential gain*

*nothing to do with the arguments on taking back control and all the other arguments, and I'm not arguing against that, but again, if we are affected financially, then just how important do those things become?

It's true we trade with the world, but the way I understand it we can only do so if the EU ratify it. We aren't free to set up our own deals in the best way to suit us. Being able to wheel and deal without one arm tied behind our backs is one of the best reasons to quit.

[MirrorMan]

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... s-industry

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-mark ... ervices_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The argument for better trade does not stack up, never has, never will.

Again, the argument for "taking back control" is a completely different one and one I'm not going to argue about as its basically dependent on whether you believe in the freedom of movement or not.

I don't understand the 'taking back control' bit at all. Are people really saying they want the Tories to have total control without being held back by the EU?

Can anyone quote some bad EU laws?

To sell to the EU our goods will have to comply with EU rules on those goods.

I received a financial update from Argyll Scott which claims that following the fall in the pound, many immigrants from eastern Europe have decided the reduced value of their wages in their home country is not worth it and have left, this on top of the general increase in negativity towards them.

Sadly for the chap in Barnsley who was interviewed saying it was all about muslims (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/e ... 2c563937ff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) I doubt he's seeing the benefit he voted for.

[Sidney1st]

I don't understand the 'taking back control' bit at all. Are people really saying they want the Tories to have total control without being held back by the EU?

What were they like before we joined the EU and it started holding them back?

Just for comparisons sake of course

[quoonbeatz]

Can anyone quote some bad EU laws?

something about straight bananas.

[MirrorMan]

Yes, I want the elected government here to have much more control than now unencumbered by the EU. Whatever colour that government is. I think you'll find that, however incredulous you remain, that's something almost all of the 'Leave' voters understood they were voting for. On their behalf, I apologize that it offends you.

You're quite right that the 'immigrants' that many voters may have had an issue with aren't Poles or Czechs. However, if you feel the governments of successive eecades dealt badly the unwinding of 1970s immigration, hardly surprising you'll vote against a new round or continued unrestricted iimmigration. That's not to comment on the feeling, just to point out the outcome.

With our voting system, it takes about a third of the votes to get a majority to become the 'elected government'. On top of that, I foresee a return to the need for (unelected) quangos to create rules and manage the country in the absence of those created by the EU.

I guess I'm impressed that we'll end up with a better option with the Tories holding power indefinitely.

Your second paragraph suggests that a vote to leave may not have been based on rational thinking.

[Spijed]

Yes, I want the elected government here to have much more control than now unencumbered by the EU. Whatever colour that government is. I think you'll find that, however incredulous you remain, that's something almost all of the 'Leave' voters understood they were voting for. On their behalf, I apologize that it offends you.

You're quite right that the 'immigrants' that many voters may have had an issue with aren't Poles or Czechs. However, if you feel the governments of successive decades dealt badly the unwinding of 1970s immigration, hardly surprising you'll vote against a new round or continued unrestricted immigration. That's not to comment on the feeling, just to point out the outcome.

Do people really understand how much control we can take back, especially as we won't be leaving the ECHR? That means we won't be able to deport foreign criminals, like Abu Hamza, any quicker than before.

[MirrorMan]

What were they like before we joined the EU and it started holding them back?

Just for comparisons sake of course

My point is that I am not personally unhappy with any laws we've inherited from being in the EU. My concern as a working man is that my rights are at risk in favour of my employer.

[Lancasterclaret]

Think the aim is to leave the ECHR Spijed.

[MirrorMan]

Do people really understand how much control we can take back, especially as we won't be leaving the ECHR? That means we won't be able to deport foreign criminals, like Abu Hamza, any quicker than before.

I think people often voted leave in the belief that it meant the country would be physically moving westward. It honestly scares me that we are debating what it was that people did vote for now.

[Sidney1st]

My point is that I am not personally unhappy with any laws we've inherited from being in the EU. My concern as a working man is that my rights are at risk in favour of my employer.

So my question still stands.

How bad were the Tories before the EU reined them in?

The way I'm reading what you've put, you're under the belief that the Tories are suddenly going to do away with the majority of workers rights that have been introduced over the years.

Personally I don't think they'll be that stupid, but I'm merely asking you to show they are.

[MirrorMan]

So my question still stands.

How bad were the Tories before the EU reined them in?

The way I'm reading what you've put, you're under the belief that the Tories are suddenly going to do away with the majority of workers rights that have been introduced over the years.

Personally I don't think they'll be that stupid, but I'm merely asking you to show they are.

Ah I get it, you answer none of my questions but I should answer yours.

Given the complete clusterfuck that we are now in, instigated by the Tories, that is my first example.

Google 'workers rights brexit' and to see the general level of concern on that point.

[claretandy]

Do people really understand how much control we can take back, especially as we won't be leaving the ECHR? That means we won't be able to deport foreign criminals, like Abu Hamza, any quicker than before.

Leaving the ECHR will be on the agenda after we leave the EU.

[Sidney1st]

Ah I get it, you answer none of my questions but I should answer yours.

Given the complete clusterfuck that we are now in, instigated by the Tories, that is my first example.

Google 'workers rights brexit' and to see the general level of concern on that point.

I asked you a question about your concerns re the Tories.
You've failed to answer it and just keep changing the subject.

This would indicate that you don't really have a clue what they were like before the EU, you're just panicking.

As for this being instigated by the Tories, they held a vote that they promised and the Public voted.
There have been rumblings for years that people have wanted to leave the EU, even when Labour were in charge, but it was the Tories who actually held up their end of the deal.

Why are we in a clusterfuck?

[Claretnick]

Leaving the ECHR will be on the agenda after we leave the EU.

We would have to leave the Council of Europe for this to happen. Nothing to do with the EU.

[MirrorMan]

Whereas all those voting Remain were the indubitable experts in their field and we've never had pigs with red or blue rosettes voted in Westminster? All plebiscites are flawed in that respect. Only this one seems to merit a rerun iin the minds of those who lost.

I'm not an expert, which is a large part of why I voted remain. I wish I had the confidence shown on here.

I am concerned that this country is going to lose, not just me.

My company has told us to prepare for lower pay rises now as prices rise with the fall in the pound. Before anyone says that it is a **** company then, it's one of the market leaders; there will be job losses as competitors go to the wall.

[MirrorMan]

I asked you a question about your concerns re the Tories.
You've failed to answer it and just keep changing the subject.

This would indicate that you don't really have a clue what they were like before the EU, you're just panicking.

As for this being instigated by the Tories, they held a vote that they promised and the Public voted.
There have been rumblings for years that people have wanted to leave the EU, even when Labour were in charge, but it was the Tories who actually held up their end of the deal.

Why are we in a clusterfuck?

My last post on this thread. I honestly believe I have answered your question.

[Sidney1st]

My company has told us to prepare for lower pay rises now as prices rise with the fall in the pound. Before anyone says that it is a **** company then, it's one of the market leaders; there will be job losses as competitors go to the wall.

Competitors go to the wall in all industries.

I work in the motor industry selling parts and I see companies vanishing or being taken over every couple of months, it happens and that's without Brexit.

As for lower pay rises, many people don't get any pay rises unless the minimum wage goes up, or only get one inline with inflation.

[RocketLawnChair]

I'm not an expert, which is a large part of why I voted remain. I wish I had the confidence shown on here.

I am concerned that this country is going to lose, not just me.

My company has told us to prepare for lower pay rises now as prices rise with the fall in the pound. Before anyone says that it is a **** company then, it's one of the market leaders; there will be job losses as competitors go to the wall.

I must have been the unlucky one not getting the pay rises before brexit. At least I can now look forward to a low pay rise at least.

[claretandy]

We would have to leave the Council of Europe for this to happen. Nothing to do with the EU.

I didn't say it was.

[dsr]

I'm not an expert, which is a large part of why I voted remain. I wish I had the confidence shown on here.

I am concerned that this country is going to lose, not just me.

My company has told us to prepare for lower pay rises now as prices rise with the fall in the pound. Before anyone says that it is a **** company then, it's one of the market leaders; there will be job losses as competitors go to the wall.

Since the Euro is currently trading at the same rate as its average for 2013, then you're no worse off. Because I can only assume that when the Euro rate rose in 2014 and 2015, you received exceptionally generous pay rises when the company was doing well?

[quoonbeatz]

I must have been the unlucky one not getting the pay rises before brexit. At least I can now look forward to a low pay rise at least.

seeing as prices are likely to be rising, i wouldn't get too excited.

[RingoMcCartney]

The respected businessman and former Boss of Marks and Spencers said this would happen if we voted Brexit

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... -says.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank God the intelligent 17.4 million listened to him and not Operation Lie

[JohnMcGreal]

Thank God the intelligent 17.4 million listened to him and not Operation Lie

Can't tell if this is serious or a parody

[RingoMcCartney]

So what's you're opinion of what the former head of M and S said John?

[brigante]

Theresa May would make a bad poster girl for Blood Donors.

[ClaretMoffitt]

The respected businessman and former Boss of Marks and Spencers said this would happen if we voted Brexit

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... -says.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank God the intelligent 17.4 million listened to him and not Operation Lie

I actually remember a piece during the referendum coming out from the Guardian, talking all about how a brexit vote will limit the supply of unskilled labour to UK business, and in turn result in a wage inflation for domestic low-skilled workers. The funny thing is, the tone of this article was one of a scare story, talking about how it will negatively affect big business ability to recruit and may lead to price increases on products, certainly not citing it as a positive.

Liberals are only for the poor when it suits them.

[RingoMcCartney]

I actually remember a piece during the referendum coming out from the Guardian, talking all about how a brexit vote will limit the supply of unskilled labour to UK business, and in turn result in a wage inflation for domestic low-skilled workers. The funny thing is, the tone of this article was one of a scare story, talking about how it will negatively affect big business and may lead to price increases on products, certainly not citing it as a positive.

Liberals are only for the poor when it suits them.

Some peole can't understand the very basic principle of supply and demand.

If you have an over supply of cheap labour it will have a detrimental affect on the bargaining power of the already lowest paid.

Having an over supply of unskilled labour, thanks to uncontrolled mass immigration, means already beleaguered British workers, are forced to join the race to the bottom in wages.

Intelligent people can grasp this concept with ease.

Only unintelligent Remoaners, employers who greatly benefit from cheap labour and the 1% globalist refuse to accept it.

Like the referendum result , funnily enough!

[ClaretMoffitt]

Some peole can't understand the very basic principle of supply and demand.

If you have an over supply of cheap labour it will have a detrimental affect on the bargaining power of the already lowest paid.

Having an over supply of unskilled labour, thanks to uncontrolled mass immigration, means already beleaguered British workers, are forced to join the race to the bottom in wages.

Intelligent people can grasp this concept with ease.

Only unintelligent Remoaners, employers who greatly benefit from cheap labour and the 1% globalist refuse to accept it.

Like the referendum result , funnily enough!

I think most grasp it and understand it, I think they just don't really care. It's not an issue that affects them, so they aren't particularly bothered about it. They like to use the "protectors of the poor" stance as a weapon in debates, but the substance behind this is often very thin. I would argue nobody has done more to hurt the Northern working class in the last 50 years than the previous Labour government, who ironically claimed to be its champions.

[quoonbeatz]

the problem is that supply and demand works in other ways as well; the jobs have to be there in the first place.

[Spijed]

Some peole can't understand the very basic principle of supply and demand.

If you have an over supply of cheap labour it will have a detrimental affect on the bargaining power of the already lowest paid.

Having an over supply of unskilled labour, thanks to uncontrolled mass immigration, means already beleaguered British workers, are forced to join the race to the bottom in wages.

Intelligent people can grasp this concept with ease.

Only unintelligent Remoaners, employers who greatly benefit from cheap labour and the 1% globalist refuse to accept it.

Like the referendum result , funnily enough!

But higher wages mean higher costs surely. So where's the benefit?

Wasn't it shown that EU workers are willing to do the jobs that British workers don't want to do? Cleaning toilets for example?