Andre Gray

[Spijed]

He can hit the back of the net, but we can not afford a 1 in 4 chance striker at this level!

Considering we don't usually create that many chances for all our strikers combined in a PL game goodness knows where you've got that figure of 1 in 4 from.

Still, I bet the likes of Chris Iwelumo or Ade Akinbiyi will be delighted to hear you think they and every other pro-footballer has a better first touch than him.

[Sidney1st]

His first touch is as bad as any pro I've watched in thirty years of going on. This will not get any better at 25 years old. Largely you can't teach it, it's instinct.
He can hit the back of the net, but we can not afford a 1 in 4 chance striker at this level!
The biggest problem is we have no alternative to his style of play. So in him we must rely. He can do a lot better than yesterday!!
UTC

Defoe was a 1 in 4 striker for years prior to these last couple of seasons, so are numerous other PL strikers but people are behaving like 1 in 2 PL strikers are grown on trees and easy to find, then sign up.
Based on his goals to appearances ratio in the league this season Gray is just about a 1 in 3 striker though, so good job we aren't worrying about that level of striker.

[taio]

To be fair Defoe is definitely not a 1 in 4 striker and I don't need to look at his stats to know that. As for Gray, he's still raw so I can understand some of the criticism, especially about his first touch and technical ability, but some of the other other criticism has been stupid because he's done a very good job for us.

[ashtonlongsider]

I remember watching Defoe in the replay the previous round and I thought he was anonymous on the night. I'm not comparing Gray to Defoe, far from it. All i'm suggesting is that strikers need service and the football awareness to work the channels and find space. Gray's got the raw ingredients i.e. pace but he still gets caught time and time again off side. Something I thought he would have improved in his game by now. As a side issue I think Gray plays better when partnered with Barnes and I'm very surprised they didn't start together yesterday or Barnes being brought on a lot earlier than he was.

[Sidney1st]

OK Defoe was generally a 1 in 3 before these last two seasons, yet he's feted as some sort of goal scoring god on here.

[taio]

Please tell me you're not just looking at his goal scoring record and dividing it by the number of appearances. Because of course quite a lot of those appearances were as a substitute.

[IanMcL]

Defoe is a sublime finisher and always has had the knack of being in the right place....with the skill to deliver.

Gray....over the top and let me run on to it. I can hit it hard then.

[Sidney1st]

I'm looking at Defoe generally scoring about 10 a season.
That's what people look at, the number of goals scored, compared to appearances.

People bang on like he's been prolific all through out his PL career when he hasn't been apart from the odd season.

You say he was a sub, but is that because he wasn't good enough to be first choice?
I think that was the case at Spurs.

Not good enough is probably the wrong phrase.

[Grimsby Claret]

We need a good stiker, We all know why.
In Fact make that two.

[taio]

I'm looking at Defoe generally scoring about 10 a season.
That's what people look at, the number of goals scored, compared to appearances.

People bang on like he's been prolific all through out his PL career when he hasn't been apart from the odd season.

You say he was a sub, but is that because he wasn't good enough to be first choice?
I think that was the case at Spurs.

I bet he's top 10 leading goal scorer in PL history. To me that deserves credit despite him being a 1 in 4/3/? scorer - I don't need to look at his stats to know he's been a very good striker and comparing Gray to him is premature to say the least.

[claretspice]

Some absolutely ludicrous comments on this thread.

Gray wasn't great yesterday, and his touch wasn't at his best, but there were mitigating circumstances and he was still, by some considerable distance, our biggest attacking threat. He spurned 3 decent chances, certainly, but one of them was made difficult when the defender pulled him back at source, and with hindsight Gray should have gone down and had the lad sent off. He got two shots away on his left foot - its unfortunate they came to him on his wrong foot, but that's life sometimes - and ironically it was one on his right, from Darikwa's pull back, that he made the biggest mess of. None were sitters, though.

Gray also suffered yesterday from the way the midfield was set up behind him. Westwood and Barton worked well together against Chelsea, when neither really needed to get about the park, but yesterday their tendency to stay behind the ball just in front of the centre halves firstly made them sitting targets for Lincoln's aggressive press, and secondly made it very easy for Lincoln to keep their shape. We needed someone willing to drive forwards in possession from midfielders and commit defenders, which might in turn have created far better opportunities to slide Gray in with proper passes. It was on the sporadic occasions we did this - Vokes once in the first half, but he delayed the pass, and then when Gray himself overhit the pass into Arfield in the second half - that we looked most like scoring. It was unfortunate in this regard that we were without all of Marney, Hendrick and Defour, who in their own way might have offered this - but we could probably have replicated it by moving Arfield centrally.

As it was, we played to Gray's weaknesses - forcing him to receive the ball with the back to goal, with the ball bouncing and bobbling awkwardly.

Has he improved since he joined us? Yes. He runs the channels way better than when he first arrived, as that run against Chelsea when he isolated Luiz and squared a good (left footed) ball across the 6 yard line. He uses his pace and power (which are undimmed, contrary to bizarre suggestions to the contrary) far more intelligently now than he used to as well.

He's a rough and ready, flawed striker. But he's got the pace and power that premier league clubs crave, and that's why he's our most valuable attacking player. The key to us having a long life at Premier League level is recognising his shortcomings and surrounding him with other players who compensate for them, but also recognising and remembering his strengths, even after a game as frustrating as that one.

[Sidney1st]

Hes been playing in the PL a long time and averaging 10 a season so yes hes probably quite high up in the goal scoring charts.

I mentioned him due to people banging on about him because they're only thinking about these last couple of seasons, not the ones where hes scored 10 or less and there's a good few of those.

[taio]

I'd take 10 goals from any of our strikers this season. He's done better than I thought if the stats I've just looked are correct - he's 7th highest PL scorer of all time. He's outscored players like Van Persie, Drogba, Owen and Sheringham. And he's been playing PL football for a long time for a reason.

[bobinho]

"As it was, we played to Gray's weaknesses - forcing him to receive the ball with the back to goal, with the ball bouncing and bobbling awkwardly."


Seriously, you are making excuses for his lack of being able to control a moving football by suggesting it was bouncing and bobbling awkwardly? Really??

I enjoy reading your posts. I find myself wishing I could put my thoughts down as well as you normally do. Always considered, and never far off the mark, I often think "I wish I'd wrote that". Maybe that's why I'm more than a little puzzled by the quoted remark. The pass to him in the box that simply required sweeping into the net was instead simply swept into the stand. Awkward? The pass was straight to him. Bobbling? Not from what I could see.

As is usual, I think the truth about AG is somewhere between the opinions we read on here. Personally, I think he's at his best when he has no time to think about what he wants to do, but even this seemed to be missing yesterday, and that had nowt to do with formations or the type of balls he was fed. It's fair to expect a PL footballer to receive the ball and control it. He struggles with this most basic element of the game.

[3putt]

"He's a rough and ready, flawed striker. But he's got the pace and power that premier league clubs crave, and that's why he's our most valuable attacking player. The key to us having a long life at Premier League level is recognising his shortcomings and surrounding him with other players who compensate for them, but also recognising and remembering his strengths, even after a game as frustrating as that one."


A great summary and one that some fans really struggle to appreciate.

[claretspice]

"As it was, we played to Gray's weaknesses - forcing him to receive the ball with the back to goal, with the ball bouncing and bobbling awkwardly."


Seriously, you are making excuses for his lack of being able to control a moving football by suggesting it was bouncing and bobbling awkwardly? Really??

I enjoy reading your posts. I find myself wishing I could put my thoughts down as well as you normally do. Always considered, and never far off the mark, I often think "I wish I'd wrote that". Maybe that's why I'm more than a little puzzled by the quoted remark. The pass to him in the box that simply required sweeping into the net was instead simply swept into the stand. Awkward? The pass was straight to him. Bobbling? Not from what I could see.

As is usual, I think the truth about AG is somewhere between the opinions we read on here. Personally, I think he's at his best when he has no time to think about what he wants to do, but even this seemed to be missing yesterday, and that had nowt to do with formations or the type of balls he was fed. It's fair to expect a PL footballer to receive the ball and control it. He struggles with this most basic element of the game.

The finish he botched yesterday was just one of those things. It was a bad miss. They happen and they aren't worth over-analysing, although I would say one of the weaker elements of Gray's game is finishing balls coming across him, e.g. from crosses.

My point about his control yesterday was about the sort of ball he played into him in build up. We weren't giving him the ball to run onto, down the sides of the centre backs, which is where he excels. It was usually balls fed into him from 30-odd yards away, which he was trying to take 15 yards inside their half with a centre half at his back in a 1 v 1 tusssle (we get obsessed with trying to isolate our front 2 against their counterparts - I'm dubious about the extent to which we try it at the best of times in the league, but against a team like Lincoln who revelled in that physical battle, it was completely counter-productive and brainless).

That would be hard enough on a bowling green of a surface with good service, but with balls hooked over the shoulder or otherwise played in the air, in a pitch which was pretty uneven at the best of times, it gave Gray's game a real test in an area where he's known to struggle. It made no sense and was symptomatic of the lack of craft and balance in our midfield. To get the best out of Gray, you need the second striker dealing with that sort of ball in when necessary, but more particularly you need the midfield 4 and full backs supplying a far better quality of service. Yesterday, neither Barton and Westwood played or carried the ball forwards enough, Boyd in particular struggled to do any meaningful prompting, Arfield tried and got into good positions to affect the game but nothing really came off for him, and the use of the ball from the two full backs was utterly abysmal. All of the above gave Vokes a hard enough time, but gave Gray no chance at all.

[3putt]

Yes. Although we both know he might have been given the title of PotY, but he was nowhere near the best player in the league. Not even close. He scored a lot of goals, but it should've been a hell of a lot more.
Leading goal scorer this season??? How many goals? Three in one game against a defence with djilibodje in it and more holes than a very large holey thing.

Come on 3putt. Do you think AG is the answer? Ignoring yesterday, as they ALL had a stinker (had to ask at 65 minutes whether SV was on the pitch) what exactly do you see in AG? I see the discussions above, but I cannot relate what's written to what I see.

With respect bobinho, you seem blind to his talents.

He was PotY last season, because of his tremendous goal scoring prowess. How many goals this season you ask? 6 to date. Including a hat trick, which is a tremendous achievement in the Prem, I don't care who/which team you are playing against. 6 from 19 thus far - 1 in three aint bad especially considering the lack of quality service in the main. I am convinced he will finish on 10 plus, which considering it his first season, which has been a disrupted one, will be very creditable.

Irrespective of what a few have said, he has power and pace and can finish and also unsettles most defences.

It's plain to see that at times his control is poor, but if he had fantastic control allied to his other attributes, he wouldn't be playing for Burnley and would have a huge price tag.

Some fans, need to concentrate on his strengths rather than focus on weaknesses, poor control or not, he is our most effective striker by some distance. So yes, I do think he is answer, but he needs a better strike partner who is a more of a footballer and is capable of playing a killer pass for AG to latch on to.

[firstclaret]

He's bonking one of Little Mix, mans a legend

Akin to Ron Futcher going with one of Bananarama.

[Down_Rover]

I think he has real potential and we have yet to see the best of him. He is a good finisher. Many so called top strikers miss the target on a regular basis and many have poor ball control d
We have the benefit of seeing all his misses and the times he loses the ball because we see the whole game. For the others we just see the highlights and the worldie goals.

What really frustrates me is that he does not take advantage of his two big advantages, speed and strength. When looking for a pass from midfield he has his eye on the ball too much. He should anticipate where the pass is going and go for it. That will give him the yard start he needs. Sure he will make the wrong run but only needs to get it right once or twice a game.

Suarez and De Foe are examples. They make many pointless runs but are called a genius when they guess right.

Andres issue is that his run does not start till the pass is made and that means the defender just has to step to the side to stop him or push him wide

[ShabbaRanks]

There were some folk, might even have been in this thread that absolutely refuse to have it that he has a poor touch, doesn't work as hard as his colleagues and and gets caught offside needlessly.

Yesterday was Andre Gray in microcosm. If you had never seen him before and never seen him again, all you would have taken from yesterday's game is that he has a poor touch, doesn't work as hard as his colleagues and gets caught offside easily.

Go on then, which one of you lot is going to be the first to say he's not usually like that.

[Wile E Coyote]

Gray , like the rest ofthe team have not the slightest interest in this game against Lincoln, he wasn't going to run himself into the ground for nothing.

Same applied against accy stanley, who really cares? Our priority is the league obviously. Gray like vokes and barnes , are often restricted to minimal chances both home and away due to the quality of opponents. If he was up front in a united team or arsenal,it follows more chances would come his way. He is a far better player than many are making out, far better. One poxy slip up against a pub side yesterday proves nothing.

[bobinho]

"With respect bobinho, you seem blind to his talents."

Never thought of it like that. I don't think I have written him off. I sing his name from the CFS as vociferously as anyone, so I support him wholeheartedly. Maybe I don't cut him enough slack when being critical of his performances.

One thing I have to disagree on though, is the stats. We can make them seem whatever we like. I prefer to see the 1 in 3 as 1 in almost 5, 'cos that's what it is really - to me anyway. Three of those six were in one game, against a defence that Stevie Wonder could've scored against. Yeah I know the goals still had to be scored, and AG scored them - he's got some good ones - but remove that game and the stats look like Andre Gray stats. They back up what we actually see every week. Or should I say what I actually see every week.

Just to be clear, I don't have an unhealthy dislike of him, I just don't see a footballer. Nine times out of ten, when the ball is on it's way to him, I just know it's going to bounce off him. Seem to remember him actually scoring from a chance created by his own mis-control.

[taio]

Gray , like the rest ofthe team have not the slightest interest in this game against Lincoln, he wasn't going to run himself into the ground for nothing.

Same applied against accy stanley, who really cares? Our priority is the league obviously. Gray like vokes and barnes , are often restricted to minimal chances both home and away due to the quality of opponents. If he was up front in a united team or arsenal,it follows more chances would come his way. He is a far better player than many are making out, far better. One poxy slip up against a pub side yesterday proves nothing.

I do not believe for a moment the players and manager didn't want to beat Lincoln. I think being gracious in defeat is important and accepting that Lincoln deserved their win because they outsmarted us.

[ewanrob]

Not read all the thread so apologies if repeating. But big Sam was less than impressed with being pulled, but have to say both Sam and Andre offered nothing. The thing that bothered me was not so much losing.. but the behaviour of some our lads. But heyho...its gone, time for Hull.

[TVC15]

3 pages of posts of Grays performance yesterday and yet it was partner Vokes who was shocking.

I thought Gray looked sharp yesterday and if Vokes or any of the midfield would have played to his strengths and pass a ball for him to run onto he had yards of pace on there centre backs.

Instead we lumped it up to Vokes who looked pretty disinterested in a physical battle yesterday and hardly won a header. And on the floor he is just as slow as the Lincoln defence was.

By no means was Gray brilliant and his touch was sloppy - as it often is but as said thats not his strength.

Our midfield and full backs were terrible - they offered nothing - how many times did they play the ball into the channel for Gray ? This is a tactic that has worked really well in the last few weeks where Gray has used his strength and pace to bully the likes of Huth and Luiz.

There were many many things wrong on that pitch yesterday - personally i`d say Grays performance was quite a long way down the list of what caused the defeat.

[minnieclaret]

He needs to sit down with a video of Ian Wrights goals. Many different styles of finish available but he just wants to blast the cover off the ball.
In the first half he blasted one straight at the keeper, probably his best option, unlucky to hit it so true.
The second half chance he blasted at him should have gone up and over the keeper.
He needs some variety. The problem being his touch is so atrocious he'd probably miss them anyway.

[claretspice]

One thing I have to disagree on though, is the stats. We can make them seem whatever we like. I prefer to see the 1 in 3 as 1 in almost 5, 'cos that's what it is really - to me anyway. Three of those six were in one game, against a defence that Stevie Wonder could've scored against. Yeah I know the goals still had to be scored, and AG scored them - he's got some good ones - but remove that game and the stats look like Andre Gray stats. They back up what we actually see every week. Or should I say what I actually see every week.

Or alternatively, 3 of those goals were against a team sufficiently bad defensively that we were able to deliver to Gray the sort of chances he thrives on - it was about the only time this season when we've been able to slide Gray in so that he's receiving the ball within the width of the penalty area and even then two of his goals came from fairly non-descript punts that the defender made a hash of. From memory, he scored 3 out of 4 chances he got against Sunderland. How many other occasions has he received the ball inside the penalty area? His chances against Leicester, for example, involved him picking the ball up right out wide and driving in on an angle, leaving him to shoot from a very acute angle. He hasn't been getting easy chances.

You can't deny Gray credit for the fact he was clinical against Sunderland, and then refuse to acknowledge that for most of this season, our limitations as a creative outfit have denied him the very chances he thrives on. That's just unreasonable and selective analysis.

We know he struggles with his back to goal. But slide him in down the sides of the defenders and he's as good as anyone at finishing those chances. In my opinion, the next development for this team is to begin to do that more often. As I said above, focus on what he can do, and how to get the best out of it, rather than obessing on what he can't.

[Vino blanco]

Without Andre Gray we wouldn't be in the PL.

[3putt]

"With respect bobinho, you seem blind to his talents."

Never thought of it like that. I don't think I have written him off. I sing his name from the CFS as vociferously as anyone, so I support him wholeheartedly. Maybe I don't cut him enough slack when being critical of his performances.

One thing I have to disagree on though, is the stats. We can make them seem whatever we like. I prefer to see the 1 in 3 as 1 in almost 5, 'cos that's what it is really - to me anyway. Three of those six were in one game, against a defence that Stevie Wonder could've scored against. Yeah I know the goals still had to be scored, and AG scored them - he's got some good ones - but remove that game and the stats look like Andre Gray stats. They back up what we actually see every week. Or should I say what I actually see every week.

Just to be clear, I don't have an unhealthy dislike of him, I just don't see a footballer. Nine times out of ten, when the ball is on it's way to him, I just know it's going to bounce off him. Seem to remember him actually scoring from a chance created by his own mis-control.

Assuming AG has a full season with us next in the Prem 2017-18, will be very interesting to see how he fares if he has a better strike partner and hopefully some better service from Brady. I very believe we will be looking at 15 goals or more, which surely no one will complain about.

[Sidney1st]

There will be something to whine about.
Probably something along the lines of he didn't score 20

[k90bfc]

When Hendrick,Defour and Brady are back,you just watch Andre then,the goals will fly in!

[Row Z]

We need to play to his strengths. His game is not playing with his back to goal, it is running onto through balls and driving at defenders. It's just unfortunate we often don't have the quality to play these sorts of passes. Hopefully with Hendrick, brady and defour we now do and therefore gray will thrive.

[Rileybobs]

We need to play to his strengths. His game is not playing with his back to goal, it is running onto through balls and driving at defenders. It's just unfortunate we often don't have the quality to play these sorts of passes. Hopefully with Hendrick, brady and defour we now do and therefore gray will thrive.

In fairness Andre had an opportunity to play one of the very type of passes that you're talking about to Arfield in the second half. It was a routine through ball to put Arfield in on goal and he overhit it giving the keeper a chance to collect.

His overall play in the final third needs to improve because too often it's sloppy.

[boatshed bill]

He had a very bad game but he is as near to a 'Premier League Striker' as we can afford.

Probably hits the nail on the head.

[taio]

He's certainly most threatening when running onto balls in behind defenders despite him not quite being the quickest in the team. There are obvious areas of improvement technically but he's done well for us since he joined.

[Dark Cloud]

Didn't he have a shot with his left today?

Yes he did (twice I think) but having seen the result he'd have been better off not bothering!

[Row Z]

In fairness Andre had an opportunity to play one of the very type of passes that you're talking about to Arfield in the second half. It was a routine through ball to put Arfield in on goal and he overhit it giving the keeper a chance to collect.

His overall play in the final third needs to improve because too often it's sloppy.

Agreed, it was sloppy and I couldn't help think that someone like Ings would have put some spin on the ball to get it into Arfield's path.

Andre should be the one on the end of these passes, but he needs to improve his link up play considerably. He's just not as coordinated as he often gets his feet wrong, the cut back on Saturday and chance against Chelsea being prime examples.

[Row Z]

He's certainly most threatening when running onto balls in behind defenders despite him not quite being the quickest in the team. There are obvious areas of improvement technically but he's done well for us since he joined.

I remember seeing an Opta article stating Andre is the 6th fastest player in the premier league, we need to use that threat more.

[taio]

I remember seeing an Opta article stating Andre is the 6th fastest player in the premier league, we need to use that threat more.

Michael Keane is quicker - can you remember if he was in the top 5?

[Row Z]

Michael Keane is quicker - can you remember if he was in the top 5?

Just googled it again:

1 Shane long
2 Lynden Gooch
3 Kyle walker
4 Jamie vardy
5 James McClean

[Nonayforever]

Without Andre Gray we wouldn't be in the PL.

With Andre Gray we are out of the FA Cup against a non league team.

[3putt]

There will be something to whine about.
Probably something along the lines of he didn't score 20

Oh yeah

[Sidney1st]

With Andre Gray we are out of the FA Cup against a non league team.

I know which I prefer right now....

We can pick up the cup next season.

[Paul Waine]

We need to play to his strengths. His game is not playing with his back to goal, it is running onto through balls and driving at defenders. It's just unfortunate we often don't have the quality to play these sorts of passes. Hopefully with Hendrick, brady and defour we now do and therefore gray will thrive.

I hope Andre was watching ManUs second goal this afternoon. That's the way a striker puts a long ball in the back of the net.

UTC

[Chester Perry]

Zlatan's goal was excellent but how many has he missed this season - even with the number he has scored - think it was 11 against us - a bit of perspective for Andre - 1st season at this level he will improve with the team if we allow

[TVC15]

95% of the strikers in this league could look and learn from Zlatan - not just Gray.

There are many strikers in the Premier League who cost / get paid a lot more than Gray and are not doing aswell as him this season

A few off the top of my head include

Bony
Negredo
Long
Diouf
Jansen
Borini
Nolito
Batchuyi
Zaza
Hernandez
Afobe
Slimani
Vardy
Ozaki

[3putt]

I hope Andre was watching ManUs second goal this afternoon. That's the way a striker puts a long ball in the back of the net.

UTC

Great example.

Ibrahimovic had a spell earlier this season where he scored 1 goal in 11 games. And that's playing for a team with far more creativeness than Burnley.

Imagine if he did that playing for the Clarets, can just see the comments, game not suited to the prem, too tall, hair too long, over rated, over the hill etc etc.

[FactualFrank]

29 goals in 60 appearances. For arguments says, let's go with 1 goal in 2.
£6 million quid.
You'll struggle to get many players for that investment.

[Saxoman]

A question..

Would you swap gray straight for Jordan Rhodes?

[Damo]

Gray isn't as potent as Defoe and Ibra.
We should sack him now.
Completely letting the rest of the team down based on that performance yesterday