Term time holiday dad loses court battle...

[dsr]

At the end of the day there has to be a line otherwise the rules have absolutely no meaning. Is the line drawn correctly? Maybe not but then the rules need changing, not ignoring when you see fit.

This is part of the problem. What you want, reasonably enough, is a rule so that applying that rule will be the best thing for every child. Obviously this isn't possible, because all children are not the same.

What parents want, reasonably enough, is a rule that is the best thing for their child. Obviously this too isn't possible.

So where is the happy medium? I would tend towards the view that parents know what is best for their own children. I'm confident this is true in the case of responsible, loving parents. It won't be true for all parents.

Other people want the rule to be biased in favour of the idea that the State knows better than the parents. This, I dare say, is true in the case of feckless, hopeless, clueless parents - but their children are unlikely to be vastly improved by one more week in school anyway. So my conclusion is, let the parents decide, and if the head thinks they're taking the mick he or she must say so and take whatever action is needed. (Except that, in view of the lack of powers teachers have nowadays, there's next to nothing that the head can do.)

[Quicknick]

This is part of the problem. What you want, reasonably enough, is a rule so that applying that rule will be the best thing for every child. Obviously this isn't possible, because all children are not the same.

What parents want, reasonably enough, is a rule that is the best thing for their child. Obviously this too isn't possible.

So where is the happy medium? I would tend towards the view that parents know what is best for their own children. I'm confident this is true in the case of responsible, loving parents. It won't be true for all parents.

Other people want the rule to be biased in favour of the idea that the State knows better than the parents. This, I dare say, is true in the case of feckless, hopeless, clueless parents - but their children are unlikely to be vastly improved by one more week in school anyway. So my conclusion is, let the parents decide, and if the head thinks they're taking the mick he or she must say so and take whatever action is needed. (Except that, in view of the lack of powers teachers have nowadays, there's next to nothing that the head can do.)

If you think parents know what is best for their children, you haven't been a teacher.

[dsr]

If you think parents know what is best for their children, you haven't been a teacher.

I've been a child. I wouldn't say any of the 30 or 40 teachers who taught me during my schooldays knew better than my parents re. how to bring me up.

Was that not true of your childhood? Had your teachers more idea than your parents?

[FactualFrank]

I wonder if a points type system could work, based on attendance, effort, homework etc? If the child gets enough points, they can have time off to go away. If they don't, well... they can't.

[Mattster]

This is part of the problem. What you want, reasonably enough, is a rule so that applying that rule will be the best thing for every child. Obviously this isn't possible, because all children are not the same.

What parents want, reasonably enough, is a rule that is the best thing for their child. Obviously this too isn't possible.

So where is the happy medium? I would tend towards the view that parents know what is best for their own children. I'm confident this is true in the case of responsible, loving parents. It won't be true for all parents.

Other people want the rule to be biased in favour of the idea that the State knows better than the parents. This, I dare say, is true in the case of feckless, hopeless, clueless parents - but their children are unlikely to be vastly improved by one more week in school anyway. So my conclusion is, let the parents decide, and if the head thinks they're taking the mick he or she must say so and take whatever action is needed. (Except that, in view of the lack of powers teachers have nowadays, there's next to nothing that the head can do.)

I'd argue that what parents want in this case is what is best for themselves.

I take the view that if parents could just take their children out when it suited them it negatively impacts on both their child, the other children in that class and the school staff. From a single instance that impact will be minor, from sustained instances of multiple children being absent at different times for different lengths of time the impact becomes much greater.

[Woodleyclaret]

Spot on Lakesclaret.Several schools I worked in had lots of pupils disappear to Pakistan for several weeks and no fines were even mentioned.

[Shore claret]

So you see only your own situation but not that of others. Fair enough. Before I was a parent I'd probably have a similar view.

I am a parent thanks and stick to the rules. Yes holidays cost me more which isn't great, and the kids probably don't need to be in school for every hour. If everyone picks what rules to follow the country would be in serious problems

[NRC]

I'm following the rules... I'm at Heathrow, child in tow, and it's costing me a fortune.

[dsr]

I'd argue that what parents want in this case is what is best for themselves.

I take the view that if parents could just take their children out when it suited them it negatively impacts on both their child, the other children in that class and the school staff. From a single instance that impact will be minor, from sustained instances of multiple children being absent at different times for different lengths of time the impact becomes much greater.

I think you're being overly cynical. I know lots of parents who do make sacrifices to do the best they can for their child; they aren't working purely on self-interest.

Not everyone is rich. Most of the people who are doing this to save money, are not looking at the choice between Florida expensively or Florida cheaply; they're looking at Florida cheaply or Florida not at all. My opinion is that all children, especially if they come from a relatively poor family, would ideally be able to look back through childhood at a special family time which they can still think fondly of, even in old age. Even if that means missing a fortnight of primary school with all the negative impact that has on their GCSEs six or seven years later - an impact hard to assess, but unlikely to run into several grades, surely?

[cricketfieldclarets]

I think that in a civilised society in north eastern Europe

Well to say you didn't miss a day for holidays, they didn't teach you geography!

[pureclaret]

Having read through the comments on here, I have decided that there should be a review of the holiday v school and costs of the holidays and the costs for the school including management of children's education due to these holidays.
So I am quite happy to chair this review and am looking for up to 11 other people to join the review.(12 good people) so at the end we can vote and make laws as to what will happen from 2019
I have sent an email to mother Theresa May and asked for a small budget to run this. It is a year long review with each person getting the average wage for a teacher and my self as head will get a little more all reasonable expenses will be included so flights hotels car hire etc will be paid for as obviously we will need to check out properly these holiday sharks (ops companies).
It would be good if a couple of the team were actual teachers and possibly an account or two to help with calculations.

[lovebeingaclaret]

So this thread seems to support a situation where a class of perhaps 30 pupils could have a substantial decrease in weekly attendance.

Perhaps three one week, then six the next, let's go for ten the following week, followed by a week or two of school holidays.

Throw in a chickenpox outbreak and a few other horrible illnesses that kids seem to attract, then off course an odd broken bone, death in the family and other such occurrences.

Are you really trying to say that this wouldn't substantially disrupt the teaching of children?

[UpTheBeehole]

Just to show that teachers get it a whole lot worse than parents if they take time off for holidays...

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/ne ... e_in_Cuba/

[UpTheBeehole]

This is how it should be done

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... -crackdown

[houseboy]

Thankfully I don't have this problem as my kids are grown up but I sympathise with these parents completely. I don't care what anyone says, 2 weeks per year out of school does NOT affect a child's overall education. It's all about the school stats and nothing more. I always took the kids out of school for holidays (all three of them), obviously not during exam times, and my 3 daughters all did well. The eldest got great grades and went on to further education but then left because she didn't want to carry on but that was her choice. Of the other two one is a teacher and the other is at university studying social work. Nobody but nobody on this earth is ever going to convince me that taking a child out of school for holidays (if done sensibly) is going to harm their education.
As far as the tour operators are concerned I said when they introduced this odious piece of legislation that they would take the mick - how predictable was that.

[fatboy47]

What actually make an issue out of this particular circus are the Ofsted attendance targets.

Drop those, or adjust their criteria, and the whole silly issue will vanish......it's got the square root of bugger-all to do with academic achievement.

[starting_11]

Funny how they crack down on attendance and sickness at my child's school but the gutless teachers do absolutely nothing to address the problem of scroatish parents and appalling hygiene of some of the kids.

Apparently they found Threadworms in a child so they sent a generic letter out to everyone, obviously in order to avoid embarrassment and difficulty of addressing the parent of the child head on.

Parasites... in 2018, absolutely unbelievable.

I think I'll go on holiday in term time and start using the money saved to pay for private school. Much better class of people, you see!

[Lancasterclaret]

My kids school have alway been pretty chilled about this......until now.

As both my kids have had 100% attendance for the last three years, I'm slightly miffed that those parents whose kids "Mommy, I have a headache which stops me going to school but does not stop me playing fortnite" have a lot of time off are basically forcing the school to adopt it.

[UpTheBeehole]

It isn't just Ofsted, or the UK, because as my link yesterday showed, the Germans are taking a much more hardline approach to this.

Missing school affects a child's education. Selfishly booking a holiday during term time damages learning. This is a universal opinion, not just that of schools, Ofsted, local education authorities or government.

[Lancasterclaret]

If you think that missing a week at PRIMARY school seriously affects your kids education, then you are either not a parent, insane or trolling.

I wouldn't dream of doing it if they were at secondary school, because that clearly puts them behind btw

[Damo]

Just to show that teachers get it a whole lot worse than parents if they take time off for holidays...

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/ne ... e_in_Cuba/

Although both attend school, not sure how some well paid headmaster (with plenty of time off per year) getting caught skiving and losing his job relates to a child being taken away by their parents for a mid term break.
I know you are trolling because that's pretty much all you do on here, but it's still a silly comparison

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Whilst they're cracking down on this they also need to modernize the curriculum.

Quite why they teach Pythagoras or Trig to all math sets is just beyond me, because most people won't be using them once they're done with education.
There's other things as well, but that's just an example.

Admittedly I have made the mistake of telling my son it's pointless learning these and he told his teacher the same , oops.
Apparently the teacher asked how I pack things in boxes and my son simply said if it doesn't fit, get a different box.

[TVC15]

Funny how they crack down on attendance and sickness at my child's school but the gutless teachers do absolutely nothing to address the problem of scroatish parents and appalling hygiene of some of the kids.

Apparently they found Threadworms in a child so they sent a generic letter out to everyone, obviously in order to avoid embarrassment and difficulty of addressing the parent of the child head on.

Parasites... in 2018, absolutely unbelievable.

I think I'll go on holiday in term time and start using the money saved to pay for private school. Much better class of people, you see!

What exactly is unbelievable ?
That some children are brought up in poverty by parents who either cannot afford basics or do not give a sh-it about their children ?

What do you expect these so called "gutless" teachers to do about this ?

Not exactly the most empathetic of blokes are you....lets hope you don`t fall on hard times eh...and lets hope that if you do you are not surrounded by people with the same attitudes you appear to have.

[Lancasterclaret]

The teachers are not the issue for **** kids.

Its **** parents.

[IanMcL]

I'm following the rules... I'm at Heathrow, child in tow, and it's costing me a fortune.

Anyone flying out of Heathrow is not making a usual holiday flight!

[UpTheBeehole]

I'd class a sh*t parent as one who selfishly books a holiday because it's cheaper, rather than send their kids to school.

I've got kids at primary and secondary school, both with 100% attendance records. Our holidays have always been taken over the easter break, summer break, and October half term. We've never paid over the odds, and my kids have never missed school.

They're both flying education-wise by the way.

[WadingInDeeper]

Funny how they crack down on attendance and sickness at my child's school but the gutless teachers do absolutely nothing to address the problem of scroatish parents and appalling hygiene of some of the kids.

Apparently they found Threadworms in a child so they sent a generic letter out to everyone, obviously in order to avoid embarrassment and difficulty of addressing the parent of the child head on.

Parasites... in 2018, absolutely unbelievable.

I think I'll go on holiday in term time and start using the money saved to pay for private school. Much better class of people, you see!

Because the child with the threadworms may not be the source of them, or the only child with them.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I'd class a sh*t parent as one who selfishly books a holiday because it's cheaper, rather than send their kids to school.

I've got kids at primary and secondary school, both with 100% attendance records. Our holidays have always been taken over the easter break, summer break, and October half term. We've never paid over the odds, and my kids have never missed school.

They're both flying education-wise by the way.

So you approve of holiday firms ramping up the prices for holiday times?

[Lancasterclaret]

You must have paid over the odds because you are going on holiday during those times UTB.

[Neilhaj]

I'd class a sh*t parent as one who selfishly books a holiday because it's cheaper, rather than send their kids to school.

I've got kids at primary and secondary school, both with 100% attendance records. Our holidays have always been taken over the easter break, summer break, and October half term. We've never paid over the odds, and my kids have never missed school.

They're both flying education-wise by the way.

My holiday last year was £1400 cheaper overlapping the school holidays and luckly the school saw sense and authorised these days off for my kids.

[Lancasterclaret]

Apparently that makes you a **** parent mate

I'd say making sure they do their homework, take part in as many school activities as possible, behaving whilst at school and turning up on time is a much better indicator of who is a good or bad parent to be honest.

[Devils_Advocate]

So you approve of holiday firms ramping up the prices for holiday times?

Yes they need to. If they have a business that can accommodate so many bookings over a full summer but has a limit for any given weekly period then this hits them pretty hard as instead of having full hotels and excursions and other commercial activities all summer they have to squeeze everything into a small time window with limited capacity.

The combination of needing to earn their full summer school holiday revenue in a fraction of the time alongside the natural business economics of supply & demand is always going to result in the prices ramping up for the school holiday period.

[quoonbeatz]

So you approve of holiday firms ramping up the prices for holiday times?

things are generally more expensive at peak times, whatever you're doing.

one of the perks of not having kids is cheaper holidays and there not being loads of kids ruining things wherever you go.

kids shouldn't be allowed to leave the country in term time.

[UpTheBeehole]

I don't book my holidays through travel agents, and have never understood anyone who does. It's not the 1950s.

We book private villas and sort the transport out ourselves. The flights might be a little bit more expensive than if we'd have gone a week prior, but only by about £300 in total. That's not worth taking kids out of school for.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So they can still go on holiday in the UK in term time?

[NottsClaret]

I remember going on a cracking holiday to France as a kid, one of the best of my life. My folks weren't exactly loaded, but I can remember more about that week (slightly before the end of term, you know, when you're just watching films on VHS and dicking about) than most others in my life.

I can't recall my attendance record for any school year though. But whether it was 97% or 99%, I wouldn't swap it for that week in France. See it as a valuable lesson in not slavishly following rules and go and have some fun while you can.

[starting_11]

What exactly is unbelievable ?
That some children are brought up in poverty by parents who either cannot afford basics or do not give a sh-it about their children ?

What do you expect these so called "gutless" teachers to do about this ?

Not exactly the most empathetic of blokes are you....lets hope you don`t fall on hard times eh...and lets hope that if you do you are not surrounded by people with the same attitudes you appear to have.

I grew up **** ******* poor.

But no one was on benefits, I knew how to take a ******* bath and grow up with some self respect so don't lecture me about hard times because that's got nothing to do with not being a total scroatbag

On a side note, you appear to be obsessed with me. Can you ease off a bit?

[whentheballmoves]

Going back to post 2, it's an interesting one. 92.5% sounds like great attendance, but it isn't too far off missing 1 in every 10 days, or 1 every 2 weeks, if you prefer.

If you extrapolate that, that means (on average) 3 days per half term, meaning 18 days a year. At secondary school alone, that's 90 days, or 3 half terms, or one whole half year of school missed.

The potential for the above to have a massive impact on a child's progress is massive, and also has the danger of building a pattern for life.

I'm not going to get into an argument about good / bad parents, but I'd say they're a mixed ability bunch. Good parenting to me means investing time, rather than money, in your kids, not to mention bringing them up to show respect to others just as much as to themselves.

[WadingInDeeper]

Going back to post 2, it's an interesting one. 92.5% sounds like great attendance, but it isn't too far off missing 1 in every 10 days, or 1 every 2 weeks, if you prefer.

If you extrapolate that, that means (on average) 3 days per half term, meaning 18 days a year. At secondary school alone, that's 90 days, or 3 half terms, or one whole half year of school missed.

The potential for the above to have a massive impact on a child's progress is massive, and also has the danger of building a pattern for life.

I have a child who was very rarely off school but is a prime example of how a short time off, at the wrong time (only two weeks due to being hospitalised and recovering), can have a big impact. In this case it wasn't missing out on teaching but simply losing momentum in terms of revision.

[TVC15]

I grew up **** ******* poor.

But no one was on benefits, I knew how to take a ******* bath and grow up with some self respect so don't lecture me about hard times because that's got nothing to do with not being a total scroatbag

On a side note, you appear to be obsessed with me. Can you ease off a bit?

“On a side note” I think I have pulled you up 2 or 3 times - hardly obsessed is it ?

So just to clarify no I am not obsessed with you - but I am pretty appalled at some of the sh-it you spout

[starting_11]

What?

I can't have the opinion that people are clean or don't eat chicken nuggets for every meal.

You must be a right peasant!

[TVC15]

And you must be a right pr-ick

[starting_11]

Must be.

What with being clean and cooking my own food and all...

[UpTheBeehole]

I remember going on a cracking holiday to France as a kid, one of the best of my life. My folks weren't exactly loaded, but I can remember more about that week (slightly before the end of term, you know, when you're just watching films on VHS and dicking about) than most others in my life.

I can't recall my attendance record for any school year though. But whether it was 97% or 99%, I wouldn't swap it for that week in France. See it as a valuable lesson in not slavishly following rules and go and have some fun while you can.

Your French holiday would have been just as good a week or so later. It wasn't going to drop off the map.

[TVC15]

Must be.

What with being clean and cooking my own food and all...

Ok - so just to get this right - your contribution to this thread is that :

1) it’s the fault of people who are on benefits
2) teachers are gutless for not sorting out the parents
3) it’s a child’s fault if he can’t get himself washed or fed properly
4) you are better than everyone cos you have a wash and cook your own food

So what exactly has any of that horse sh-it got to do with kids being taken out of school in term time ?

Have you ever read Viz ?
If not look up a character called Victorian Dad - it will be like reading your autobiography

[starting_11]

1) Not once did I mention of benefits
2) Yes teachers should tell the parents their kids need a bath
3) Where did I say that?
4) No, just better than those who don't

And what it HAS to do with kids being taken out of school in term time is BAD HYGIENE costs more sick days than taking unauthorised absence.

Duh!

You really are a wally!

[Dike Muff]

I’m so glad that the Missus an I chose to Home Educate. We’ll be taking our two to Venice, Eurocamping, in 2 weeks.

[TVC15]

1) Not once did I mention of benefits
2) Yes teachers should tell the parents their kids need a bath
3) Where did I say that?
4) No, just better than those who don't

And what it HAS to do with kids being taken out of school in term time is BAD HYGIENE costs more sick days than taking unauthorised absence.

Duh!

You really are a wally!

Ok - not the sharpest tool in the box are you ?

Why don’t you read your own posts again - you know the one where you mention benefits

After you have done that post the link that evidences that bad hygiene costs more sick days than taking unauthorised absence.

Irrespective they are 2 completely different issues. That’s like saying unauthorised absence is absolutely fine because more days are lost through truancy.

Every thread is not your opportunity to spout off about exterminating fat people on benefits who don’t wash and like to eat Turkey twizzlers

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Your French holiday would have been just as good a week or so later. It wasn't going to drop off the map.

Wasn't as much of an issue years ago as it is now.

I also don't know if holiday firms ramped up the cost of holidays back then either, but plenty of families used to go on holiday that last week of school which was always a week for dossing.

[Bacchus]

So you approve of holiday firms ramping up the prices for holiday times?

The problem with this argument is that is displays absolutely no understanding of how the industry works. If you aren't happy with what Thomas Cook are charging you for your package holiday in August you might want to try and build the same holiday cheaper yourself by contacting foreign hotels, airport transfer services, airlines etc. I'll bet that in the majority of cases you can't. If Thomas Cook were making huge fat margins on the Summer holidays they sell you can bet your bottom dollar that there would be another agency undercutting them to take their business. Clearly that isn't the case.

By their very nature most holiday resorts are seasonal and the hotels etc. have a 6 week window to bring in enough revenue to cover their annual costs. Do people honestly think that when they travel off peak to a half empty hotel on a cheap deal they are genuinely paying the fair rate for that holiday and that every additional pound charged for the same holiday in peak times is just profit for the travel agent? It's akin to complaining that you're being ripped off for buying a Christmas tree in December when the store could clearly charge the same price that they sell them for in January.