Defour

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:39 pm

KRBFC wrote:I'm happy to be proven wrong, if you fancy attempting to do so.

The burden of proof lies with you because you are making the assertion.

You have to prove with more information that A did in face cause B.

claretspice wrote:The point here, you wally, is that noone can prove a connection.

Spice is correct, a game of football contains too many factors and variables in every second to definitely prove a connection.

Therefor all you can do is make a false conjecture; a conclusion based on incomplete information.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:40 pm

Tall Paul wrote:

Are you acting stupid or are you actually this thick?

Reverse it then, what if Defour started every away game and didn't start every home game?

statistically we'd be worse at picking up points with Defour in the team. Durrrrrrr

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:48 pm

KRBFC wrote:statistically we'd be worse at picking up points with Defour in the team. Durrrrrrr

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:50 pm

claretspice wrote:The point here, you wally, is that noone can prove a connection.

Until I'm proven incorrect, I will continue to be correct. Your essays don't change that either.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:53 pm

KRBFC wrote:Until I'm proven incorrect, I will continue to be correct. Your essays don't change that either.

That's not how proof & truth works and I think you know it.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:56 pm

CombatClaret wrote:That's not how proof & truth works and I think you know it.

Chill, it's just friendly banter.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:58 pm

Proof works for those suggesting something.

For example - I have a briefcase with £1 million in my car. How do I prove it? By showing you. Not by telling you to prove that I don't.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:46 pm

Jambounchained wrote:I'd be absolutely astounded if Defour ever started for us again.

Said this weeks ago. He started one on the left and came off early.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:55 pm

claretspice wrote:Well, clearly that is incorrect.

How?

We win the most games when he features. Fact.
He has more international caps than any of our central midfield options and that is for a team ranked in the worlds top 10. Fact.
He is easily our best footballer. Subjective but can't see a case for any others.
He can do things in a game that no others in our team are able to. Subjective again. But see his goal against Bristol City. Or Hull City.
He has got the most assists in the team (joint with Vokes who should also start more). Fact.
He has got the highest pass success ratio in the team. Fact.
He has got the (joint) most official MOMs. Fact.
He has the highest official rating (opta) average per game.

All this when only Tarkowski, JBG, Robinson, Flanagan and Westwood have featured less.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:14 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:How?

We win the most games when he features. Fact.
He has more international caps than any of our central midfield options and that is for a team ranked in the worlds top 10. Fact.
He is easily our best footballer. Subjective but can't see a case for any others.
He can do things in a game that no others in our team are able to. Subjective again. But see his goal against Bristol City. Or Hull City.
He has got the most assists in the team (joint with Vokes who should also start more). Fact.
He has got the highest pass success ratio in the team. Fact.
He has got the (joint) most official MOMs. Fact.
He has the highest official rating (opta) average per game.

All this when only Tarkowski, JBG, Robinson, Flanagan and Westwood have featured less.

Ignoring all the stats and common sense, ClaretSpice is clearly correct because his essay like posts say so. I agree with ClaretSpice, Arfield upfront immediately.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:15 pm

Wow cant remember seeing this many arguments and objections to people highlighting how much we missed Marney when he was injured based on how many more points we won with than without him. Then it seemed accepted that this was a good method of analysis.

I guess this way round though it points some criticism towards Dyche and we cannot have that so makes sense why certain people are now suddenly ridiculing this view and the linking of Defours importance to how better we've performed when he has played

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:22 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:How?

We win the most games when he features. Fact.
He has more international caps than any of our central midfield options and that is for a team ranked in the worlds top 10. Fact.
He is easily our best footballer. Subjective but can't see a case for any others.
He can do things in a game that no others in our team are able to. Subjective again. But see his goal against Bristol City. Or Hull City.
He has got the most assists in the team (joint with Vokes who should also start more). Fact.
He has got the highest pass success ratio in the team. Fact.
He has got the (joint) most official MOMs. Fact.
He has the highest official rating (opta) average per game.

All this when only Tarkowski, JBG, Robinson, Flanagan and Westwood have featured less.

Because all these things being equal, the manager doesn't think he's worth a place in the starting eleven. So clearly it is incorrect to say that everyone can see he's our best midfield because the manager doesn't.

And the manager is quite fond of his stats and is presumably not in the habit of taking decisions he thinks will harm the team, so he'll have his reasons.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:23 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Wow cant remember seeing this many arguments and objections to people highlighting how much we missed Marney when he was injured based on how many more points we won with than without him. Then it seemed accepted that this was a good method of analysis.

I guess this way round though it points some criticism towards Dyche and we cannot have that so makes sense why certain people are now suddenly ridiculing this view and the linking of Defours importance to how better we've performed when he has played

Try reading the Marney thread again, there are plenty of posts questioning the value of the stats. The only difference is there isn't a troll on that thread disagreeing with those posts.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:25 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Wow cant remember seeing this many arguments and objections to people highlighting how much we missed Marney when he was injured based on how many more points we won with than without him. Then it seemed accepted that this was a good method of analysis.

I guess this way round though it points some criticism towards Dyche and we cannot have that so makes sense why certain people are now suddenly ridiculing this view and the linking of Defours importance to how better we've performed when he has played

The difference being yesterday when Marney got injured two years ago, Dyche didn't decide to drop him, he was forced to do without and play Arfield as a central midfielder which Dyche has acknowledged he didn't want to do. And the stats were also more clear cut.

This time, there's a thread on this mesageboard debating the statistics around results with and without Marney so its the argument that the stats arent particularly reliable is being made about both players.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:29 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Try reading the Marney thread again, there are plenty of posts questioning the value of the stats. The only difference is there isn't a troll on that thread disagreeing with those posts.

Im talking about 2 years ago when we lost Marney and it was massively overplayed and accepted that Marney was a big lost based on how the points per game average went down when he didnt play.

Obviously with the Defour thread going even the happy clappers arent stupid enough to express one view for Marney and one for Defour

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:32 pm

claretspice wrote:The difference being yesterday when Marney got injured two years ago, Dyche didn't decide to drop him.

Just stop there as youve hit the nail on the head. Its not about the value of the stats as in principle it is the same argument. The difference is that one is linked to Dyche's own decision which we cannot critique at any cost

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:34 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Im talking about 2 years ago when we lost Marney and it was massively overplayed and accepted that Marney was a big lost based on how the points per game average went down when he didnt play.

Obviously with the Defour thread going even the happy clappers arent stupid enough to express one view for Marney and one for Defour

I can't speak for two years ago, I was banned.

However the current thread actually shows that our results weren't that much different with or without Marney that season, so if people were saying that, it looks like they were wrong.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:39 pm

claretspice wrote: when Marney got injured two years ago, Dyche didn't decide to drop him.

Ahhhh so those stats were fine to use 2 years ago to make excuses for Dyche but the same method is no longer viable because its being used to criticize Dyche. All makes sense now.....

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:40 pm

Tall Paul wrote:I can't speak for two years ago, I was banned.

However the current thread actually shows that our results weren't that much different with or without Marney that season, so if people were saying that, it looks like they were wrong.

You was banned? What for? How dare CT ban my favourite puppet, I will be having words.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:50 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Just stop there as youve hit the nail on the head. Its not about the value of the stats as in principle it is the same argument. The difference is that one is linked to Dyche's own decision which we cannot critique at any cost

That isnt what i said at all. Its a factor though - we had professional football manager telling us we weaker for his absence and the stats simply backed that up. This time we have stats that are at odds with the view of the professional football manager who has the closest view of the players and access to god knows how many other, detailed performance stats. So clearly there is more to the story than the stats youve produced. Im not saying you have to agree with Dyche, but you ought to accept that Defour has weaknesses and that Dyche has his reasons.

Plus, the stats two years ago were more clear cut. There was an binary distinction between games before Marney got injured and those afterwards. This year its a far more patchwork picture because Defour has been in and out of the team, has played more home games than away, and so on.

So, in summary, it is different, it just is.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:17 pm

Whether the manager thinks he is or is not our best player is almost irrelevant, Spice, it's whether or not he (SD) can make HIS system work with Defour in the side.

As a watcher of football matches, I'd rather watch Burnley with Defour playing, and the stats suggest we wouldn't be any worse off points-wise; though I accept stats aren't infallible.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:39 pm

claretspice wrote:Because all these things being equal, the manager doesn't think he's worth a place in the starting eleven. So clearly it is incorrect to say that everyone can see he's our best midfield because the manager doesn't.

And the manager is quite fond of his stats and is presumably not in the habit of taking decisions he thinks will harm the team, so he'll have his reasons.

I give up!

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:55 pm

This will be the same manager who purchased Sordell and Juke for a premier league campaign.

Everyone knew they were gash at the time yet the manager persisted on playing Juke.

I have a lot of doubts regarding the managers eye for a player. Dyche is increasingly looking to have been found short as time goes on. Has he peaked?

I mean you can play over 50 times for a top ranked country, have played at some top teams on the continent yet cannot displace an over the hill Barton from the team despite several less than reasonable recent performances.

Everyone knows that as Defour doesn't run around like a headless chicken ( boydesque) he is not a Dyche type player. The player isn't at fault that he is cultured and floats around in space waiting to be effective ON the ball.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:54 pm

Right_winger wrote:This will be the same manager who purchased Sordell and Juke for a premier league campaign.

Everyone knew they were gash at the time yet the manager persisted on playing Juke.

I have a lot of doubts regarding the managers eye for a player. Dyche is increasingly looking to have been found short as time goes on. Has he peaked?

I mean you can play over 50 times for a top ranked country, have played at some top teams on the continent yet cannot displace an over the hill Barton from the team despite several less than reasonable recent performances.

Everyone knows that as Defour doesn't run around like a headless chicken ( boydesque) he is not a Dyche type player. The player isn't at fault that he is cultured and floats around in space waiting to be effective ON the ball.

And yet, Dyche signed him.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:21 pm

I would hazard a guess that the "over the hill" Barton has the best fitness stats of anybody 30 or older in our squad. Not sure how old Boyd is but he could be the exception if he is 30 yet.

He has dipped a bit off his superb standards but by heck, what standards they are. It wouldn't just be Defour kept out of the team by Joey.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:59 pm

The real reason Defour doesn't get in the team is because Dyche has absolutely no idea how to coach a team in how to pass a ball effectively. Incapable of opening up a defence or retaining the ball, we cant even pass it around the back without panicking and passing back to Heaton to shank it out of play. Sounds obvious to say but we cant score without having the ball and neither can the opponents yet we are so hopeless in possession. Dyche is the most one dimensional predictable manager you will see ever manage In the PL, he's a typical League One standard central defender turned manager.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:15 am

claretspice wrote:And yet, Dyche signed him.

It's looked a more and more curious decision as time has gone by.

KRBFC - I do get where you are coming from but expecting anything else from this season would have been ridiculous. Of course you can counter that with at least expecting an improvement in the style of play, but I think that comes with time and better players. With our current style, it's always only going to be a few poor results away from criticism - better to lose trying than to attack than lose trying to defend.

In Dyche's first full season, we played some lovely football, so it is in his locker, although admittedly the key has been missing for a while. What we seem to have also lost (last season too, despite the fantastic success) was the pressing and harrying further up the field that we used to have and part of that is the loss of Ings.

I think Dyche sees this as a needs must season, focussing on what he thinks is the safest approach to getting the necessary points. I'd hope that we might start to see more football played next season with players capable of more on the ball but also being allowed to show what they can do.

For me, Defour should be accommodated particularly when we aren't pulling up any trees with the usual formula. Sunday was a mistake from the off for me, I thought it would have made more sense to start Defour in a five man midfield and at least have an experienced striker on the bench to bring on.

Same XI on Saturday though, I reckon

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:08 am

DCWat wrote: What we seem to have also lost (last season too, despite the fantastic success) was the pressing and harrying further up the field that we used to have and part of that is the loss of Ings.
:

I must have missed the ten home wins this season!

Without our pressing etc. there is no way we'd have got so many wins under our belt, unless we have been very lucky.

Claretmatt4 · Post by **Claretmatt4** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:13 am

In all honesty Spied our wins haven't come from that imo. We've frustrated the opposition and held on late where our superior fitness has won us points.

In terms of really grasping a game and winning it if say only Leicester and Sunderland could be used a examples in the league. We played well v City and Chelsea but most of our wins haven't come from us being proactive.

If it keeps us up who cares? As long as we learn from this next year and try to get a bit more adventurous and creative.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:22 am

Spijed wrote:I must have missed the ten home wins this season!

Without our pressing etc. there is no way we'd have got so many wins under our belt, unless we have been very lucky.

I'm not saying we don't still press, we do of course, but I don't think it's anything like to the extent that we did in our previous promotion and Premier League stint.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:30 am

Claretmatt4 wrote:In all honesty Spied our wins haven't come from that imo. We've frustrated the opposition and held on late where our superior fitness has won us points.

In terms of really grasping a game and winning it if say only Leicester and Sunderland could be used a examples in the league. We played well v City and Chelsea but most of our wins haven't come from us being proactive.

It's almost as if we're one of the weakest teams in the league and trying to control a game against vastly superior opposition would be suicidal.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:55 am

Let's just hope and pray that we stay up!

A lot of knives are being sharpened over the management of this extremely talented footballer.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:19 am

Mala591 wrote:Let's just hope and pray that we stay up!

A lot of knives are being sharpened over the management of this extremely talented footballer.

I'd hope we should stay up, but if results go against us this weekend it's going to be a nervy last couple of games.

Dyches formula works excellently at the level below, but this same formula has been found out now no question. The main issue with Dyche is his unwillingness to deviate from the tried and trusted.

It's not a new criticism by any means.

It's also very strange that Dyche doesn't use our best players and reverts to the "runners"

No one is saying we should try and control the game, just be smarter with the ball. We do not appear to be able to quickly break on a team unless it's a hoof towards a target man to pick up the second ball. We are so slow with possession allowing the opponents to get back into position. This is another reason why we seem to concede a lot from our attacking set plays, the opposing teams break much quicker than we can cope with.

Too much emphasis is on shape and this framework. It starves us of support further up the pitch. Defour is that player who finds the pockets of space and looks to move the ball quickly.

Brady also seems to be a step ahead of the rest of our team in that aspect.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:56 am

KRBFC wrote:The real reason Defour doesn't get in the team is because Dyche has absolutely no idea how to coach a team in how to pass a ball effectively. Incapable of opening up a defence or retaining the ball, we cant even pass it around the back without panicking and passing back to Heaton to shank it out of play. Sounds obvious to say but we cant score without having the ball and neither can the opponents yet we are so hopeless in possession. Dyche is the most one dimensional predictable manager you will see ever manage In the PL, he's a typical League One standard central defender turned manager.

Geez! I agree with quite a bit of what you say but that`s harsh! I m critical of Dyche`s framework as much as the next `In Dyche we don`t blindly follow` man, but that was akin to telling the girl next door girlfriend of 6 months that you`re dumping her because she smells.

Dyche does need to wake up and smell the coffee but if we stay in the Premier League (still think we will do it with 4 or 5 points to spare) he does deserve our patience.

We clearly HAVE been found out though and we are possibly NOW the easiest team to prepare for (as much as Boro I would suggest) so if Dyche doesn`t want to live `up` to your appraisal, he needs to pull his finger out (doubt he`l ditch the 4-4-`2` though)

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:23 pm

DCWat wrote:I'm not saying we don't still press, we do of course, but I don't think it's anything like to the extent that we did in our previous promotion and Premier League stint.

Away from home we press high against the better teams and park the bus against the sh*t teams. Spurs game we pressed them like crazy, Dyche must have been unable to take the team talk that day.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:36 pm

DCWat wrote:It's looked a more and more curious decision as time has gone by.

Not really, i think it leads to the logical conclusion Dyche wanted the technical ability that Defour and wanted him to be an unqualified success, but simply believes Defour hasnt sufficiently adapted to English football for the benefits he hope to gain from Defour to outweigh the shortcomings that have been exposed by English football.

As for pressing - we still do this, but our best pressing has always been done by Marney and Ings. Barton tried to press high for the first United goal on Sunday - he ended up overcommitted and United exploited it. Similarly Chelsea scored at Burnley by similarly exploiting an enthusiastic press. I suspect the problem those goals highlight, plus the change of personnel (particularly Gray) explain why our pressing is more circumspect now than 2 /3 years ago.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:40 pm

KRBFC wrote: Dyche is the most one dimensional predictable manager you will see ever manage In the PL, he's a typical League One standard central defender turned manager.

Are you sure about that?

In the history of the PL he's the most one dimensional & predictable?

I'll have to go off and check, but I think you're wrong about it, especially when there have been some truly shocking managers in the PL, like Stuart Pearce and Paul Jewell.

Just a question, but when Howe became manager of Bournemouth first time what league were they in and what league were they in when he had to retire?

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:41 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Are you sure about that?

In the history of the PL he's the most one dimensional & predictable?

I'll have to go off and check, but I think you're wrong about it, especially when there have been some truly shocking managers in the PL, like Stuart Pearce and Paul Jewell.

You just need to look at which dick it is posting this garbage to realise he isn't sure.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:55 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Are you sure about that?

In the history of the PL he's the most one dimensional & predictable?

I'll have to go off and check, but I think you're wrong about it, especially when there have been some truly shocking managers in the PL, like Stuart Pearce and Paul Jewell.

Just a question, but when Howe became manager of Bournemouth first time what league were they in and what league were they in when he had to retire?

Bournemouth were in League Two and started the season with -20 points in Howe's first season I think, 3 promotions in 4 seasons at Bournemouth from League Two to PL. I'm sure they had a transfer embargo in League Two. I'm not sure how that makes him one dimensional? I wasn't aware he'd retired.
One dimensional and predictable doesn't make you don't pick up points.... otherwise I would've said the worst PL manager ever.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:58 pm

Retired from playing, as a former defender.

So you're still adamant he's the most one dimensional manager in the history of the PL?

I know you can't stand him, but you do get more bizarre as the season goes on, I'm going to be really surprised if you've got your season ticket sorted for next season, considering how much you hate his style of play.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:03 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Retired from playing, as a former defender.

So you're still adamant he's the most one dimensional manager in the history of the PL?

I know you can't stand him, but you do get more bizarre as the season goes on, I'm going to be really surprised if you've got your season ticket sorted for next season, considering how much you hate his style of play.

What does Eddie Howe being a former defender have to do with it? I said Dyche was your ''typical'' former defender, Howe isn't. I'm confused why you brought Howe into the argument tbh.
Tell me why he's not the most one dimensional manager in PL history? and tell me who is and why? He's certainly up there.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:05 pm

I merely made a passing reference to another lower league defender who's now managing in the PL

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:06 pm

Wonder if he'll get a start now Joey is banned... probably not.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:14 pm

KRBFC wrote:What does Eddie Howe being a former defender have to do with it? I said Dyche was your ''typical'' former defender, Howe isn't. I'm confused why you brought Howe into the argument tbh.
Tell me why he's not the most one dimensional manager in PL history? and tell me who is and why? He's certainly up there.

Howe plays attacking football, but his teams generally can't defend that well.
He was exactly the same last season, I'd say he's probably going to be the same next season...

As for the most one dimensional manager, plenty of managers get labelled as one dimensional, doesn't make them bad managers if it works.

How about YOU tell me why he's the most one dimensional manager instead.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:23 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Howe plays attacking football, but his teams generally can't defend that well.
He was exactly the same last season, I'd say he's probably going to be the same next season...

As for the most one dimensional manager, plenty of managers get labelled as one dimensional, doesn't make them bad managers if it works.

How about YOU tell me why he's the most one dimensional manager instead.

Howe's teams attack like you said, so he's not your typical former lower division defender, he's certainly not one dimensional though.
Yup so I don't know why you got all arsey and started banging on about how there's been some awful managers in the PL like Paul Jewell and Stuart Pearce.
I think his tactics are one dimensional, you rarely see anything different. The same 442 every game and an unwillingness to change when things aren't working. Rarely proactive, rarely do I see us individually target opposition players like Mourinho did with Barnes. We don't seem to adapt based on the opposition, it doesn't matter if we're playing Lincoln at home or Chelsea away, 442 it is, same team selection it is. That for me is predictable and one dimensional and that's before mentioning the very one dimensional lack of invention style of play or the unwillingness to make HT changes to personnel or shape.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:32 pm

Howe's teams can't really defend very well either and he's spent more money then Dyche, so just like last season his teams attack first and don't tend to worry about defence.
What does that make him?

Is it Dyche's tactics or ability of the players that are the issue?

I know you probably want to jump on the 3-5-2 band wagon that's just started rolling this season and making everyone giddy with excitement, but you'll need to wait for that one, we don't have good enough players for it at a guess.

Lots of managers have generally played a style they're more familiar with, especially if it does the job they need it to do.
Some take years to change that style of play, see Pulis and Sam for example, both do the dirty work to start with and eventually change the style of football, but it can take a while to change personel etc.

You clearly don't want to wait for things to change gradually, you're stamping your feet and demanding it now like a spoilt child.

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:09 pm

the arguments on this thread aren't particularly going anywhere, it's debate for debate's sake.

What is clear to me though, is that if SD set out to deploy his framework at the cost of creativity, to apply the percentages to keep us in this league, it looks like it will work, but only just.

And in that sense the framework proves itself to be inadequate as we would enter next season in an "only just" mode too. So, to my mind, there needs to be an alternative framework because only just is not good enough. And of SD can't see that, then KRBFC's assertion that SD is the problem, not the solution starts to hold water....

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:27 pm

KRBFC doesn't want to wait to find out though if Dyche can change his system with better players, KRBFC wants him fired now.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:39 pm

NRC wrote:What is clear to me though, is that if SD set out to deploy his framework at the cost of creativity, to apply the percentages to keep us in this league, it looks like it will work, but only just.

There's no evidence that is what SD set out to do, and indeed the fact he signed him in the first place is the best piece of evidence we have, and it points to the opposite conclusion.

Whst Dyche is doing is making the best use of our resources. And if we stay up we will have achieved the limit of anyones expectations for this season.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:41 pm

Sidney1st wrote:KRBFC doesn't want to wait to find out though if Dyche can change his system with better players, KRBFC wants him fired now.

Better players? what else do we need to pass a football? we have 2 England Internationals, a Belgian international and 5 (presuming I didn't miss anyone) players from the Euros. We have more than enough quality at our disposal to pass a football. We haven't won an away game all season, 442 isn't working yet we're still playing it, 9 months later. Predictable and one dimensional.