50 years since decriminalisation of homosexuality

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:49 pm

I'd agree that relationships have become more and more unstable as honesty and care have gone out of the window.
Strangely in my lifetime despite women's liberation, women are looked on much less kindly by men than in my mothers generation.
In fact both genders tend to use one another for their own agendas in a way that wouldn't have happened in the past.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:50 pm

It doesn't matter if it isn't natural to you though, it's natural to them and ultimately that's all that matters.

As for not shouting it out from the rooftops, they were still persecuted when they didn't shout about it.
It was illegal and they couldn't shout about it.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:51 pm

Religion has been many things but rarely about controlling people. It has been used by the powerful to do so, which is a quite different matter.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:51 pm

ablueclaret wrote:I'd agree that relationships have become more and more unstable as honesty and care have gone out of the window.
Strangely in my lifetime despite women's liberation, women are looked on much less kindly by men than in my mothers generation.
In fact both genders tend to use one another for their own agendas in a way that wouldn't have happened in the past.

In the past women were the stay at home raise the kids role, that was used by men to their advantage I suspect.
Now that isn't the case and many men don't like it.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:52 pm

It's amazing how some people still believe it's a choice. I like women - that's not a choice (although I'm not complaining), it's how I was born. Science is actually backing this up.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:54 pm

ablueclaret wrote:Religion has been many things but rarely about controlling people. It has been used by the powerful to do so, which is a quite different matter.

If you break this rule you'll burn in hell.
If you live by these rules you'll be rewarded with heaven.

No, I can't see how religion could control anyone, or put fear into people etc.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:54 pm

jj

ablueclaret wrote:I'd agree that relationships have become more and more unstable as honesty and care have gone out of the window.
Strangely in my lifetime despite women's liberation, women are looked on much less kindly by men than in my mothers generation.
In fact both genders tend to use one another for their own agendas in a way that wouldn't have happened in the past.

Your last three lines are spot on!!

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:56 pm

And your first three!

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:57 pm

Being attracted to those of ones own sex is understandable, most people at some point have feelings of love or happiness in the company of friends.
The step beyond often in my experience as an observer leads to pain.
For some bonding with another of their own sex is as simple and obvious as daybreak but for many I have seen it rather a desire to be loved, often in fact a reaction to the aggressiveness and demands of the opposite sex an attempt to gain affection from someone without appalling demands. Sadly the reality has usually been fleeting.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:03 pm

Got to remember the two major religions are historically based ones centred on individuals and they both challenged the authorities of the day and have to greater or lesser extents in subsequent history.
That they have heavens or hells as their end points has had reflectively little effect on human behaviour if you think about it, there have been very few pious societies.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:04 pm

Sidney1st wrote:It doesn't matter if it isn't natural to you though, it's natural to them and ultimately that's all that matters.

As for not shouting it out from the rooftops, they were still persecuted when they didn't shout about it.
It was illegal and they couldn't shout about it.

Your not getting the point it's not natural at all. As a species we are meant to mate with the opposite sex. That's how we survive. Mating with the same sex is an unnatural occurrence as we aren't designed to do that.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:04 pm

You've made a homosexual relationship sound overly complicated and like its committed as a result of the aggravation of having a heterosexual one....

That's just bizarre.
If I'm wrong, try and use less flowery language to muddy the waters for once.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:07 pm

OMG I've just liked a comment made by ABC - time to go to the dark room for a lie down.

Siddo · Post by **Siddo** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:07 pm

Right_winger wrote:Religion is a just form of controlling people and was very powerful.

Gay is not a wholly natural occurrence either. We aren't meant to go with the same sex as ourselves.

Now when people choose to be gay fine no issues with that at all as that's their choice but I do have a problem with it being flung in my face ( much like religion )

If they would just go about their lifestyle choice with respect for others and not shout it out from the rooftops then there would be a lot less issues.

Do you honestly believe people choose to be gay? Honestly?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:08 pm

Right_winger wrote:Your not getting the point it's not natural at all. As a species we are meant to mate with the opposite sex. That's how we survive. Mating with the same sex is an unnatural occurrence as we aren't designed to do that.

Why isn't it natural?
Some people are born homosexual, you can't get more natural then that, in fact that's about as natural as it gets.

We aren't designed to do it?
Would you like to hazard a guess at where the male 'G-spot' is?

It was accepted as normal by large chunks of the world before certain religions decided it wasn't acceptable.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:14 pm

One must always remember that humans are capable of great thinking and a range of emotions the most important of which is feeling wanted and wanting to love someone else.
The person animal or thing you love will very much depend on your feelings of security and one ship with that being.
For many a rather amorphous entity like a football club gives the feeling of warmth of being accepted as being part of something without any huge demands, for many men it is the love of their lives.
For others it's animals, creatures they can pour affection onto knowing they are unlikely to be hurt in the process.
Other humans are the most difficult and it's easy to see why so many people find it impossible no matter what sex they are dealing with.
To have a relationship with another human you need trust affection, concern and the ability to share and deal with what life throws at you together. In many ways that was the old religious model with of course the dominant male. As yet despite all the experiments and expertise relationships appear to have become more complex, less stable and often full of angst.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:14 pm

Some do if they are stuck in prison for a v long time with only the same sex. It's not one size fits all even though that doesn't help back up your viewpoint.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:20 pm

As to whether people are born this or that way I fancy in 99% of the population it's an open page.
Science is an everchanging view, money is to be made, opinions to form, science runs into non science as sociology does into chemistry.
The human being has been incredibly simple and incredibly complex, this is the age of making them incredibly complex, and with that comes a huge explosion of problems, but with it some great chances to make money.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:22 pm

People do chose to be bisexual gay etc, it's not all deterministic.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:23 pm

'Nice to see attitudes have changed'

*opens chrome/visits uptheclarets*

"homosexuality is a capitalist conspiracy"

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:25 pm

For instance in my life I have been approached by men several times, on a few occasions by men I was very friendly with. I could have allowed their advances but I chose not to.
At least two of these men are now married with grown up children.
At some point they chose to revert back to being heterosexual.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:25 pm

We all have a hypothalamus - which basically is used to control sex hormones. In gay men this differs from straight men. The third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus has been found to be more than twice as large in heterosexual men as in homosexual men. Also, the amygdalas in gay men have been shown in brain scans to resemble those of straight women.

The sex hormones in straight vs gay men are different. Sure.. some people can like both, and if they go to prison as mentioned above, I'm quite sure some can shut off from one and opt for the other. But I think people suggesting it's a choice, is poppycock.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:28 pm

Well in that case it's hard to understand the explosion of gayness and bisexuality.
If you think all human behaviour is down to sex hormones I think you have a lot to learn.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:30 pm

ablueclaret wrote:Well in that case it's hard to understand the explosion of gayness and bisexuality.

Ponders that on a thread titled "50 years since decriminalisation of homosexuality".

Hmmm...the mind boggles.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:31 pm

Again cannot argue with ABC - I think the main reason for this whole "pride" movement, is that someone saw a way of making a hell of a lot of money on the back of it.

Same as pretty much every other cause.

We talk of religion, Capitalism is the modern religion - the $ the new God. If people didn't make money very few "good causes" would see the light of day

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:31 pm

Come on ablueclaret, you're not that thick, surely. The reason for this explosion is because it's more accepted.

Surely even you can understand that. People are 'coming out' and admitting it, knowing they won't be ridiculed.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:34 pm

ablueclaret wrote:For instance in my life I have been approached by men several times, on a few occasions by men I was very friendly with. I could have allowed their advances but I chose not to.
At least two of these men are now married with grown up children.
At some point they chose to revert back to being heterosexual.

Or they're bisexual and decided they wanted to have kids etc.
Or they felt compelled to follow the norm as set out by society.

They haven't reverted to being heterosexual.

See Elton John and Freddie Mercury if you need examples of men who tried to conform to societies pressures to be heterosexual.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:35 pm

I feel like a hamster in a cage... going nowhere fast.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:36 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Why isn't it natural?
Some people are born homosexual, you can't get more natural then that, in fact that's about as natural as it gets.

We aren't designed to do it?
Would you like to hazard a guess at where the male 'G-spot' is?

It was accepted as normal by large chunks of the world before certain religions decided it wasn't acceptable.

And the 'fact' that plenty of blokes don't mind a bit of back door with their missus!

In most instances (not all) I don't think it's a choice and it's not fair to judge someone for being that way inclined. Should there be more acceptance of paedophiles (not in what they think or want to do) but perhaps that they can't help the way that they are 'wired'.

Two men together is something I really don't like and as odd as it might sound, I would turn away if I see two blokes kissing on the television. It's just not something I am comfortable with. I'm not ashamed to say that although perhaps it makes me a half homophobe because I dislike what they do but don't dislike gay people.

In the same way that insular communities in the country creates division, I think that the Mardi Gras / Pride events create the same division. They seem to be less relevant (to an outsider) now that many rights have been correctly put in place.

I worked with, and was good friends with, a gay bloke for a while and he was very anti the 'camp gays' as he called them. He was of the view that it's all an act (one that he said he had done himself at one time). It puzzles me why there is a need for this obviously gay persona and accent (this seems to me to be more a choice than being gay itself).

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:38 pm

Yeah the camp part is amusing and some do seem to go well over the top with it, much to the annoyance of other gay blokes.

Same with the butch lesbian thing.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:41 pm

DCWat, I'm sure if you talk to psychologists, they'll tell you about what goes on in the mind of a paedophile, a mass murderer, etc. They say that psychopaths for instance, find it impossible to empathise. You tell them your Gran has died, and they won't bat an eyelid. They also only think of the positives of their outcomes - not the negatives. Which is why you get murderers - they're not thinking about spending 30 years behind bars, only the positive outcome of killing somebody.

Now, I guess you could ask, is it their fault? Well yeah, because it's different to the above subject. It's been shown that you can keep psychopathic tendancies locked up, if you're brought up correctly - get brought up with parents who don't give a damn and they're likely to turn out to be a full blown nutter. I remember watching a documentary where David James was actually diagnosed as being a pyscho - not finding it possible to show empathy.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:44 pm

Well you obviously know them better than me Sidney.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:47 pm

Appreciate the empathy (or lack of) point in relation to psychopaths, but with a paedophile, it's not the same, surely? They must be driven by their sexual desires, as anyone else, it's just that their desires aren't mutually consenting or agreeable in a right minded society.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:49 pm

Again the lines are being blurred - Homosexuality and "TV Gay" are two very different things. It is fashion to be what I (admittedly none PC) refer to poncing about, it has been made a lifestyle choice by people with agendas. (My stepson actively works on it)... and I hate it. He's gay that is fine, there is absolutely no need to "play a role"; I on the other hand am often told I can come across as quite effeminate - that's me, I'm straight but have no problem being who I am.

What I hate is all the fakery. If its really what "they" are as opposed to who they think they should be then get on with it. However this modern trend to camp up is as false as complete denial of sexual orientation - neither is helpful. File under false nails, eyelashes, botox and bottle tan - only out there to make a market to sell to, Purely money driven.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:49 pm

Yeah you might be right there DCWat. I guess it's hard for us to know for sure on that. I'm sure if there are any psychologists on here, they might give more of an insight.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:51 pm

Not your friends personally no, but people are one of the three normally - gay, bi or hetero.
There are other ones, but that's a different conversation for another day.

It is possible to try and suppress one due to pressures of society, family etc, but ultimately that leads to unhappiness, depression and in worse cases self harm and/or suicide.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:02 pm

People suppress their. urges every day.
Most people on here would like to get their hands around my neck, but once they met me they'd know just how foolish that would be.
We are bundles of regressions desires etc but it is our mind which enables us to make sense of the options available to us
I'd often like to throttle Dianne Abbott but I know she has done me no harm so the feeling quickly subsides.
In many ways the adherence to some code of rules helps us to get through life, once all the rules are thrown in the air as I experienced in communes life becomes a battle ground with the strong taking all the goodies and the weak quietly seething
It is when there are no rules that hatred really has a chance to fester.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:08 pm

For me being homosexual is no more special than being blind, it does not make a person more or less of a human being, it's how they value and care for other human beings that really matters and that means being part of the greater whole. Sectionalism like feminism valuable though it can be in changing attitudes has at its core self importance and that is a destroyer of good relationships.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:13 pm

I think you'll find most pop stars have been paedophiles under the law, having sex with under age females who no doubt have consented but in awe.
It really still depends who you are and what is expected of you as to whether you're labelled a paedophile or a jack the lad.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:14 pm

Must check on all those hypothalamuses and make sure they are the one determining factor in a person's sexual orientation.
I've seen lads who like girls but have been hurt by them take up with blokes because they are accepted, nothing at all to do with their hypothalamus.
Not all gay relationships are sexual, many don't go far beyond friendship.
Life is so more varied and complex than the chemical determinists would have us believe.
I guess it's some hormonal quantity that makes some women breast feed and others not, of course it isn't, we override our inclinations, feelings etc, often don't know or understand our feelings etc.
Trying to make sexual choice purely deterministic diminishes the people who make that choice, they become prisoners in their own body.

Bertiebeehead · Post by **Bertiebeehead** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:27 pm

ablueclaret wrote:Must check on all those hypothalamuses and make sure they are the one determining factor in a person's sexual orientation.
I've seen lads who like girls but have been hurt by them take up with blokes because they are accepted, nothing at all to do with their hypothalamus.
Not all gay relationships are sexual, many don't go far beyond friendship.
Life is so more varied and complex than the chemical determinists would have us believe.
I guess it's some hormonal quantity that makes some women breast feed and others not, of course it isn't, we override our inclinations, feelings etc, often don't know or understand our feelings etc.
Trying to make sexual choice purely deterministic diminishes the people who make that choice, they become prisoners in their own body.

Good grief, I think you need help.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:32 pm

Right_winger wrote:Your not getting the point it's not natural at all. As a species we are meant to mate with the opposite sex. That's how we survive. Mating with the same sex is an unnatural occurrence as we aren't designed to do that.

Designed by whom? God? Homosexuality is pretty prevalent amongst most animals (to roughly the same extent as humans), which suggests that it is part of the design if there is one (there isn't, by the way).

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:39 pm

Greenmile wrote:Designed by whom? God? Homosexuality is pretty prevalent amongst most animals (to roughly the same extent as humans), which suggests that it is part of the design if there is one (there isn't, by the way).

I concur. Another thing - how does this work with people who can't have kids? You can't really say anything is natural if they can't reproduce. This is why I disagree when people say the purpose of life is to reproduce - we arrived here by accident. The same random generator that gives some people cancer, some people huge tits and some people large noses.

IMO, there is no purpose. If there is a purpose, then there is a God. If people believe in a God, then they believe in Ghosts and the afterlife. You can't pick and choose.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:02 pm

Ah the meaningless universe, and yet we still think some actions better than others, we still appreciate beauty in its various forms.
Just listen to any natural history programme life is full of purposeful behaviour, most of our activity is purposeful, purpose is the one word writ large through the rock planet earth.
Without it we become meaningless and that is something no human can stand.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:49 pm

FactualFrank wrote:I concur. Another thing - how does this work with people who can't have kids? You can't really say anything is natural if they can't reproduce. This is why I disagree when people say the purpose of life is to reproduce - we arrived here by accident. The same random generator that gives some people cancer, some people huge tits and some people large noses.

IMO, there is no purpose. If there is a purpose, then there is a God. If people believe in a God, then they believe in Ghosts and the afterlife. You can't pick and choose.

The 'purpose' is a consequence of evolution, that is, the purpose of the human race as a whole. If we had not evolved to reproduce we would not be here. However, individuals within that human race can differ from that purpose of course. Anyway, reproduction in modern society it is way more complicated then just shagging someone.

Also some higher animals like ourselves look for pleasure as well as just existence, and we find pleasure in sexual activities that don't lead to reproduction - not just homosexuality but anal, aural, masturbation etc.: all good fun!

Interestingly enough, surely if homosexuality was in our genes, how come it has survived?

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:52 pm

Hipper wrote:The 'purpose' is a consequence of evolution, that is the purpose of the human race as a whole. If we had not evolved to reproduce we would not be here. However, individuals within that human race can differ from that purpose of course. Anyway, reproduction in modern society it is way more complicated then just shagging someone.

Also some higher animals like ourselves look for pleasure as well as just existence, and we find pleasure in sexual activities that don't lead to reproduction - not just homosexuality but anal, aural, masturbation etc.: all good fun!

Interestingly enough, surely if homosexuality was in our genes, how come it has survived?

In the ear?!

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:57 pm

Greenmile wrote:In the ear?!

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NRC · Post by **NRC** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:06 pm

FactualFrank wrote:You're joking, right?

actually no. Don't knock it until you've tried it

I must admit to struggling to follow your thinking though FF. One the one hand you say homosexuality is unnatural, we can't choose to be homosexual, and then you also bring up the (excellent) argument of couples with an inability to reproduce, which is not unnatural it's just poor wiring, which is actually the same for the first example too. in other words, both about wiring, not unnatural.

Continuing the argument of unnatural - would you consider bestiality unnatural? Must be, right? That is if the purposes of the species' sexes it to reproduce. So why is bestiality legal in some US states, half of Central America, Argentina, Russia, some of Asia, some of Europe including Germany, Romania, Iceland. I find it quire bizarre that there are countries that would find homosexuality illegal/not to be practiced, while rogering a goat is OK.

And as to my defense of my suggestion you can choose - I don't mean that in the sense of bad wiring, I mean it in the sense of preference, per the bestiality argument above.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:16 pm

Hipper wrote:The 'purpose' is a consequence of evolution, that is, the purpose of the human race as a whole. If we had not evolved to reproduce we would not be here. However, individuals within that human race can differ from that purpose of course. Anyway, reproduction in modern society it is way more complicated then just shagging someone.

Also some higher animals like ourselves look for pleasure as well as just existence, and we find pleasure in sexual activities that don't lead to reproduction - not just homosexuality but anal, aural, masturbation etc.: all good fun!

Interestingly enough, surely if homosexuality was in our genes, how come it has survived?

But because something carries on (evolution) that doesn't give it a purpose. A purpose is surely a 'reason why you have to'.
How can we all have a purpose if some can't create another human being? Evolving and reproducing is one thing - having a purpose to reproduce is something different.

I think we are here because of a very large random. Individually we get ill because we threw the dice and lost. However, I have enough about me to be open minded about this and be completely wrong, so I'm open to other people's beliefs.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:58 pm

I think we are getting into semantics and philosophy, meaning there is no answer!

'The reason why I have to' have sex with a woman is to serve some inner need that I find I have. Why do I have this inner need? My genes apparently tell me to, and they have evolved.

Of course most of the time I feel I can control this need so I don't go round impregnating any woman I see. Surely that is a consequence of my genes again (via hormones) and our social arrangements.

There is an argument that none of us has the control over our actions because of our genes, but of course that would play havoc with our ideas of criminality and justice.

Of course on an individual basis we are randomly kitted out with genes that means we could suffer illnesses etc.. But as a species, the human race, we have continued to reproduce. Indeed we may in future suffer from our success.