Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

[Imploding Turtle]

Everyone! If we dare to change our mind on Brexit then Smudge says that Nationalists will run the government in 5 years. So everyone should be afraid of that.

Also, damn those blasted Remainers and their Project Fear™

[Bacchus]

Plus a general election is fought on a whole host of issues. Not a binary one.

Therein lies the problem. It wasn't a binary issue - it was a binary question which attempted to address a whole host of different issues. That's (to a large degree) why we're in this mess.

The links that AndrewJB posted (which I note you conveniently ignored) quite clearly demonstrated that you can leave the EU while remaining in the single market and customs union - indeed the Leave campaigners were making their case on that exact basis.

[martin_p]

Therein lies the problem. It wasn't a binary issue - it was a binary question which attempted to address a whole host of different issues. That's (to a large degree) why we're in this mess.

The links that AndrewJB posted (which I note you conveniently ignored) quite clearly demonstrated that you can leave the EU while remaining in the single market and customs union - indeed the Leave campaigners were making their case on that exact basis.

Ringo will either completely ignore the links because they don’t support his view, or come back with the stock Brexiteer answer ‘both sides lied, what about George Osbourne’s emergency budget eh?’, which is incredibly weak.

[claret wizard]

I wouldn't be boasting that I voted for this embarrassing circus, but each to their own.

Hmmm, the embarrassing circus is actually a gravy train in Strasbourg and Brussels. I've worked closely with the Commission in the 90's and it was a cash fest back then, I hear from my contacts there that it's only got worse in the last 20 years.

[Lancasterclaret]

Nicked from twitter and it seems so apt

"If I won a large sack of dog **** in a raffle I wouldn't be shouting 'You lost, get over it' to everyone pointing out that I'd won a large sack of dog **** in a raffle."

[RingoMcCartney]

Ah, Ringo Stage 2. Changing the goalposts saying someone is being pedantic or just entirely ignoring what you've previously said and saying you meant something entirely different.

In case you forgot, you wrote: What part of Labour's manifesto, of the lib dems manifesto or the greens manifesto, has been, is or will be enacted into law?

Answer - non.

There all binned.

That's pretty explicit.

When presented with examples of the lib dems manifesto ... enacted into law your response was that doesn't count. Even though it is an example of lib dems manifesto ... enacted into law which you explicitly stated didn't happen.

I know you're not a big fan of evidence and facts and those kind of stupid things but at times you are probably just easiest to acknowledge that you're writing ******** rather than trying to weasel out of something so obvious.

Please consult this official government information website. It shows how laws and legislation is drawn up.

Initially, a government's agenda is informed by the general election. Political parties compete for support from British voters by campaigning on their vision for the country and how they would change things. The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto.

Do you understand English? Read and absorb.

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I said previously. The Tory government nicking the LibDems ideas for whatever reason. Is not. Repeat, not the same as the LibDems manifesto being put into law and legislation. The lib dems didn't win the election.

No goal post shifting here. Just you trying to claim that something is when it isn't.

Who knows best about the process of government? You or the government?

[RingoMcCartney]

He has you massive idiot, didn’t you see? Q. Which bits of the Tory manifesto have been implemented? A. None of the Labour, Lib Dem or Green manifestos.

How clear does he need to be you massive idiot??

I forgot, momentarily, that I was dealing with an idiot that has to be spoon fed.

Apologies. What I should have said was given their tiny majority a lot of the Tory manifesto is likely not to see light of day. However, NONE of the other parties manifestos will be put into law and legislation as they didn't win. Aggi trying to claim that the Tories ripped off libedem ideas is the LibDems manifesto being put into law and legislation is desperate.

[SmudgetheClaret]

Nah Turtle project fear lives in the remain camp 850k job losses all the lights will go out the planes will be grounded businesses will leggit abroad etc you know the usual guff !!! whereas a nationalist movement is highly likely and I think you know it ..off subject I saw a comedian in Blackpool and he said isn't it bizarre how much a penis looks like a turtle...

[RingoMcCartney]

Can someone help me see what part of Ringos post below answers the question, "How many things from the Conservative manifesto have been enacted?" He says i'm an idiot for not knowing.

Cheers.

Forgot I was dealing with an idiot who needs his hand holding.

Lib dems, Greens, Labour, UKIP and independents. - didmt win. Their manifestos are binned.

Tories - won. Between now and the next general election their manifesto will be enacted ( where their slim majority will allow )

Taken from the official government website.-

"Initially, a government's agenda is informed by the general election. Political parties compete for support from British voters by campaigning on their vision for the country and how they would change things. The political party that WINS then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto."

Hope that helps.

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

Please consult this official government information website. It shows how laws and legislation is drawn up.

Initially, a government's agenda is informed by the general election. Political parties compete for support from British voters by campaigning on their vision for the country and how they would change things. The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto.

Do you understand English? Read and absorb.

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I said previously. The Tory government nicking the LibDems ideas for whatever reason. Is not. Repeat, not the same as the LibDems manifesto being put into law and legislation. The lib dems didn't win the election.

No goal post shifting here. Just you trying to claim that something is when it isn't.

Who knows best about the process of government? You or the government?

In that case no-one's manifesto is put into law and legislation, is that what you're trying to say? Because obviously the whole of the conservative manifesto has not been put into law (I'm not fully convinced you knew that though, you've avoided a lot of questions on it), they're advisory.

If that is your point then you're agreeing that the referendum didn't really mean anything, the government can take ideas from other ideas, such as the Remain side. Obviously this undermines your whole argument but it's kind of what I expected when you started tying yourself in knots just to avoid admitting you were making stuff up.

I'm still pretty confused though, you definitely said earlier What part of Labour's manifesto, of the lib dems manifesto or the greens manifesto, has been, is or will be enacted into law?

Answer - non.

But there were definitely examples of parts of the lib dems manifesto being put into law. I linked to them, it was pretty clear.

I'm not sure if I'm the one with the problem understanding English.

[RingoMcCartney]

Therein lies the problem. It wasn't a binary issue - it was a binary question which attempted to address a whole host of different issues. That's (to a large degree) why we're in this mess.

The links that AndrewJB posted (which I note you conveniently ignored) quite clearly demonstrated that you can leave the EU while remaining in the single market and customs union - indeed the Leave campaigners were making their case on that exact basis.

And REMAIN said we'd be leaving the single market

Here's the prime minister saying it on various occasions. Along with the chancellor

https://youtu.be/9fDn0MvcHQ4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is Andrew Neild reminding a flustered Nick Clegg that he said we'd be leaving the single market.

https://youtu.be/PJt3bEA_ylg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

In that case no-one's manifesto is put into law and legislation, is that what you're trying to say? Because obviously the whole of the conservative manifesto has not been put into law (I'm not fully convinced you knew that though, you've avoided a lot of questions on it), they're advisory.

If that is your point then you're agreeing that the referendum didn't really mean anything, the government can take ideas from other ideas, such as the Remain side. Obviously this undermines your whole argument but it's kind of what I expected when you started tying yourself in knots just to avoid admitting you were making stuff up.

I'm still pretty confused though, you definitely said earlier What part of Labour's manifesto, of the lib dems manifesto or the greens manifesto, has been, is or will be enacted into law?

Answer - non.

But there were definitely examples of parts of the lib dems manifesto being put into law. I linked to them, it was pretty clear.

I'm not sure if I'm the one with the problem understanding English.

What part of this sentence do you not understand?
And more importantly what part do you not agree with?

The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martin_p]

And REMAIN said we'd be leaving the single market

Here's the prime minister saying it on various occasions. Along with the chancellor

https://youtu.be/9fDn0MvcHQ4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is Andrew Neild reminding a flustered Nick Clegg that he said we'd be leaving the single market.

https://youtu.be/PJt3bEA_ylg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So what Remain said was true then. That despite prominent Leave campaigners saying we would stay in the single market, they were lying and what would actually happen is we’d look to leave the single market. You’re admitting that Leave lied then!

[martin_p]

I forgot, momentarily, that I was dealing with an idiot that has to be spoon fed.

Apologies. What I should have said was given their tiny majority a lot of the Tory manifesto is likely not to see light of day. However, NONE of the other parties manifestos will be put into law and legislation as they didn't win. Aggi trying to claim that the Tories ripped off libedem ideas is the LibDems manifesto being put into law and legislation is desperate.

If you mean by spoon fed, actually answering the question asked, then I suspect we all need spoon feeding.

[aggi]

What part of this sentence do you not understand?
And more importantly what part do you not agree with?

The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto

I understand and agree with it all. What the sentence doesn't say is that the political party that wins then forms the government and wholly and exclusively bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto.

Which part of this do you not understand: What part of Labour's manifesto, of the lib dems manifesto or the greens manifesto, has been, is or will be enacted into law?

Answer - non.

But there were definitely examples of parts of the lib dems manifesto being put into law. I linked to them, it was pretty clear.

The lib dems didn't put them into law but that was nothing to do with your statement.

[RingoMcCartney]

So what Remain said was true then. That despite prominent Leave campaigners saying we would stay in the single market, they were lying and what would actually happen is we’d look to leave the single market. You’re admitting that Leave lied then!

I'm saying that thanks to the prime minister, the chancellor and other senior figures in the government and prominent politicians. The electorate was fully informed that leaving the EU and it's associated bodies was what voting Leave meant.

[Imploding Turtle]

Nah Turtle project fear lives in the remain camp 850k job losses all the lights will go out the planes will be grounded businesses will leggit abroad etc you know the usual guff !!! whereas a nationalist movement is highly likely and I think you know it ..off subject I saw a comedian in Blackpool and he said isn't it bizarre how much a penis looks like a turtle...

I don't recall anyone saying any of that would happen. I think if you need to fabricate things to make a mockery of them then you're losing the argument, and you know it.

[ClaretMoffitt]

I don't recall anyone saying any of that would happen. I think if you need to fabricate things to make a mockery of them then you're losing the argument, and you know it.

Well, except the government.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/brit ... ysis-shows" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martin_p]

I'm saying that thanks to the prime minister, the chancellor and other senior figures in the government and prominent politicians. The electorate was fully informed that leaving the EU and it's associated bodies was what voting Leave meant.

Ah right. So the public knew which bits of which campaign were actually true then. So how did they know Remain were speaking truth and Leave lying? Why didn’t they suss Leave we’re lying about a whole lot of other stuff either? If they believed the Remain side on this point why did the much vaunted ‘Project Fear’ fail?

Even by your standards you’re tying yourself in some real knots tonight.

[RingoMcCartney]

I understand and agree with it all. What the sentence doesn't say is that the political party that wins then forms the government and wholly and exclusively bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto.

Which part of this do you not understand: What part of Labour's manifesto, of the lib dems manifesto or the greens manifesto, has been, is or will be enacted into law?

Answer - non.

But there were definitely examples of parts of the lib dems manifesto being put into law. I linked to them, it was pretty clear.

The lib dems didn't put them into law but that was nothing to do with your statement.

Now we're getting somewhere.

The website also includes these lines-

"Once in government, other events and influences also compete for ministers' attention. "

"More widely, the media's reporting on issues, government and Parliament all inform and influence Britain's political agenda."

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Tories nicking, because of increased pressure from the media, unions, public opinion, an idea from the LibDems about public sector pay. Is not the LibDems manifesto being put into law and legislation. (Only the winning parties manifesto is) You can try and say it is as much as you like but it's not.

As I've said before. Governments claim ideas from other parties to be their own but it's simply not losing parties manifestos being put into law and legislation.

[martin_p]

Now we're getting somewhere.

The website also includes these lines-

"Once in government, other events and influences also compete for ministers' attention. "

"More widely, the media's reporting on issues, government and Parliament all inform and influence Britain's political agenda."

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Tories nicking, because of increased pressure from the media, unions, public opinion, an idea from the LibDems about public sector pay. Is not the LibDems manifesto being put into law and legislation. (Only the winning parties manifesto is) You can try and say it is as much as you like but it's not.

As I've said before. Governments claim ideas from other parties to be their own but it's simply not losing parties manifestos being put into law and legislation.

So what you’re saying is that it’s legitimate for the leavers to nick some of the remainers ideas then.

[aggi]

Now we're getting somewhere.

The website also includes these lines-

"Once in government, other events and influences also compete for ministers' attention. "

"More widely, the media's reporting on issues, government and Parliament all inform and influence Britain's political agenda."

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Tories nicking, because of increased pressure from the media, unions, public opinion, an idea from the LibDems about public sector pay. Is not the LibDems manifesto being put into law and legislation. (Only the winning parties manifesto is) You can try and say it is as much as you like but it's not.

As I've said before. Governments claim ideas from other parties to be their own but it's simply not losing parties manifestos being put into law and legislation.

Ah, OK, I get you now. What you're saying is that the Tories taking a lib dem manifesto pledge and putting it into law isn't the same as part of the lib dem manifesto being put into law because different people are doing it. Even though the end result is a lib dem manifesto pledge coming into law, it certainly isn't the case that a lib dem manifesto pledge is coming into law.

So, all of the manifesto pledges were discarded as you stated, even the ones that came into law

Crystal.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ah right. So the public knew which bits of which campaign were actually true then. So how did they know Remain were speaking truth and Leave lying? Why didn’t they suss Leave we’re lying about a whole lot of other stuff either? If they believed the Remain side on this point why did the much vaunted ‘Project Fear’ fail?

Even by your standards you’re tying yourself in some real knots tonight.

Haha

When Remain, repeatedly, said we'd be leaving the single market it didn't make 17,400,000 fearful.

When they claimed there'd be an extra 850,000 unemployed by now. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they claimed the stock market would crash. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said there'd be a "Brexodous". They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said Siemans would leave. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said "confidence in the UK economy will evaporate over night" Alistair Darling. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said Nissan would leave. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said the housing market would collapse. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said Toyota would have to consider it's position. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When Cameron said, " a vote to Leave would be like putting a nuclear bomb under the economy". They new it was a load of old cobblers.

Like all whining Remoaners Marty, you don't give the British electorate the credit for being able to spot BS and fear mongering when they see it. Gullible idiots like you clearly struggled and voted Remain.

[martin_p]

Haha

When Remain, repeatedly, said we'd be leaving the single market it didn't make 17,400,000 fearful.

When they claimed there'd be an extra 850,000 unemployed by now. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they claimed the stock market would crash. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said there'd be a "Brexodous". They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said Siemans would leave. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said "confidence in the UK economy will evaporate over night" Alistair Darling. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said Nissan would leave. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said the housing market would collapse. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When they said Toyota would have to consider it's position. They new it was a load of old cobblers.

When Cameron said, " a vote to Leave would be like putting a nuclear bomb under the economy". They new it was a load of old cobblers.

Like all whining Remoaners Marty, you don't give the British electorate the credit for being able to spot BS and fear mongering when they see it. Gullible idiots like you clearly struggled and voted Remain.

But apparently they didn’t know how to spell ‘knew’.

Presumably they also picked out all the lies from the Remain campaign as well. Remarkable really, you’re certainly a super intelligent lot. I’m surprised these negotiations are going so badly really.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ah, OK, I get you now. What you're saying is that the Tories taking a lib dem manifesto pledge and putting it into law isn't the same as part of the lib dem manifesto being put into law because different people are doing it. Even though the end result is a lib dem manifesto pledge coming into law, it certainly isn't the case that a lib dem manifesto pledge is coming into law.

So, all of the manifesto pledges were discarded as you stated, even the ones that came into law

Crystal.

Huffing and puffing a bit now aggi.

And despite you clearly attempting to split hairs it's not working.

You've already conceded to the statement -

The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto

Now see if you can spot the difference between the 2 statements below-

1, the government of the day nicks an idea and puts it through the legislative process, to gain popularity.

2. One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

I hope you can and stop pretending you can't. Cos if you can't and more people think like you. We could have a constitutional crisis on our hands!!!!

[martin_p]

Huffing and puffing a bit now aggi.

And despite you clearly attempting to split hairs it's not working.

You've already conceded to the statement -

The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto

Now see if you can spot the difference between the 2 statements below-

1, the government of the day nicks an idea and puts it through the legislative process, to gain popularity.

2. One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

I hope you can and stop pretending you can't. Cos if you can't and more people think like you. We could have a constitutional crisis on our hands!!!!

No one has claimed a losing party has enacted part of its manifesto. But a winning party has enacted part of a losing party’s manifesto as you’ve admitted. So when you asked what part of the Labour, Lib Dem or Green Party manifestos have been enacted then aggi’s response is an accurate one whether you like it or not.

[RingoMcCartney]

But apparently they didn’t know how to spell ‘knew’.

Presumably they also picked out all the lies from the Remain campaign as well. Remarkable really, you’re certainly a super intelligent lot. I’m surprised these negotiations are going so badly really.

Weyhey! We've now stooped to the spelling police defection technique!

When that happens it's game over. Just desperate!

It's clearly easier to convince a gullible Remoaner of a load of old cobblers. Than to convince them that they fell for it in the first place. Project Fear obviously worked on Some! Cameron's, Osbornes, Cleggs Darlings and Bliars efforts weren't entirely wasted then.!

[martin_p]

Weyhey! We've now stooped to the spelling police defection technique!

When that happens it's game over. Just desperate!

It's clearly easier to convince a gullible Remoaner of a load of old cobblers. Than to convince them that they fell for it in the first place. Project Fear obviously worked on Some! Cameron's, Osbornes, Cleggs Darlings and Bliars efforts weren't entirely wasted then.!

Another content free post! Come on Ringo, which of the Leave lies did you spot and flag up at the time?

[RingoMcCartney]

But a winning party has enacted part of a losing party’s manifesto. .

No it has not.

Can you spot the difference between

1, the government of the day nicks an idea and puts it through the legislative process, to gain popularity.

2. One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

We really could be headed for constitutional crisis if Marty and aggi are allowed out!

[AndrewJB]

I'm saying that thanks to the prime minister, the chancellor and other senior figures in the government and prominent politicians. The electorate was fully informed that leaving the EU and it's associated bodies was what voting Leave meant.

You can't get away with saying this. As I've agreed, and you have said, Cameron, Osborne and other prominent Conservative remain supporters were running "Project Fear" - so they were saying this in order to dissuade people from voting leave. At the same time prominent leave supporters were saying the very opposite (see my link) in order to get people to vote to leave. It was not whatsoever clear cut as to what voting leave actually meant.

[CrosspoolClarets]

The answer of course, to the border, is not an easy answer. It is a hard answer. But we pay these people to deliver hard answers. David Lidington won University Challenge twice. He is meant to be a clever bloke. I fail to believe that a hard answer but one which delivers a Brexit is not possible.

Which leads us to “why”.

That can only be Parliamentary arithmetic. May’s bungled election and the Lords acting like they want to be abolished has given us a heavily pro-Remain Cabinet, let alone government or HoC. The obfuscation which results is behind all of these issues.

This shouldn’t be overly hard. I fly into the EU dozens of times a year, and trade with the EU. Nobody I speak to says it should be hard to get a deal. The only people saying that are politicians or others who listen too much to politicians. The only times at hear it is when I’m sat on my arse at home like today, browsing the net or listening to the BBC. Yes, smuggling is an issue, but there is plenty of smuggling going on within the EU now, drugs and other banned items. It shouldn’t affect a major political decision for a £1 trillion economy.

Just imagine for a moment we had a heavily pro-Brexit Government. Talking tough. I would predict that what the EU and Ire suggest would be massively different to now. A solution would be found. Hence why I favour talking tough.

After my above post, lo and behold, on Newsnight tonight there is a big article on the border arrangements with some expert interviews suggesting it can, after all, be done. The only issue is whether the EU / Ireland allow it to be done. Does that make you want to stay in, instead, or fire you up more and want to leave? British folk don’t like being bullied, and that is what this is.

[martin_p]

No it has not.

You do struggle don’t you! Abolishing the public sector pay cap was a Lib Dem manifesto promise, not a Tory one. The Tories have now removed the cap so a Lib Dem manifesto promise has been enacted by the Tories. It’s really not hard!

[martin_p]

After my above post, lo and behold, on Newsnight tonight there is a big article on the border arrangements with some expert interviews suggesting it can, after all, be done. The only issue is whether the EU / Ireland allow it to be done. Does that make you want to stay in, instead, or fire you up more and want to leave? British folk don’t like being bullied, and that is what this is.

Well it’s a shame Brexiteers don’t listen to experts then isn’t it!

[RingoMcCartney]

You can't get away with saying this. As I've agreed, and you have said, Cameron, Osborne and other prominent Conservative remain supporters were running "Project Fear" - so they were saying this in order to dissuade people from voting leave. At the same time prominent leave supporters were saying the very opposite (see my link) in order to get people to vote to leave. It was not whatsoever clear cut as to what voting leave actually meant.

"It was not whatsoever clear cut as to what voting leave actually meant"

That's your opinion Andrew. And notice I didn't say "just your opinin" because your opinin is as valid as mine and the next man's. But in my opinion it was.

[martin_p]

No it has not.

Can you spot the difference between

1, the government of the day nicks an idea and puts it through the legislative process, to gain popularity.

2. One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

We really could be headed for constitutional crisis if Marty and aggi are allowed out!

Number 1 is exactly what I said, the Tories taking a Lib Dem manifesto promise and enacting it.

No one is claiming number 2 has happened.

[RingoMcCartney]

You do struggle don’t you! Abolishing the public sector pay cap was a Lib Dem manifesto promise, not a Tory one. The Tories have now removed the cap so a Lib Dem manifesto promise has been enacted by the Tories. It’s really not hard!

Apparently it is.

Can you spot the difference between

1, the government of the day nicks an idea and puts it through the legislative process, to gain popularity.

2. One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

"Initially, a government's agenda is informed by the general election. Political parties compete for support from British voters by campaigning on their vision for the country and how they would change things. The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto"

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do try to enlighten and educate your self. This insistence that a losing parties manifesto is allowed to be enacted into law and legislation. Rather than a government trying to make itself popular is making you look foolish.

[martin_p]

"It was not whatsoever clear cut as to what voting leave actually meant"

That's your opinion Andrew. And notice I didn't say "just your opinin" because your opinin is as valid as mine and the next man's. But in my opinion it was.

Yey!!! Full house!!! Ringo is now claiming it’s just his opinion absolving him from having to prove anything. We’ve had all the Ringo tricks now:

- claiming someone is being pedantic when they point out something he said is wrong
- ignoring questions where he knows the answer will undermine his point
- blindly refusing to accept something he’s said is wrong despite incontrovertible evidence
- claims it’s all just his opinion when he knows he’s lost the argument

And with that we’ve had the full Ringo cycle, so I’m off to bed.

[RingoMcCartney]

Number 1 is exactly what I said, the Tories taking a Lib Dem manifesto promise and enacting it.

No one is claiming number 2 has happened.

Should number 2 ever happen in a democracy?

Namely

One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

Should that happen?

[RingoMcCartney]

When presented with examples of the lib dems manifesto ... enacted into law your response was that doesn't count. Even though it is an example of lib dems manifesto ... enacted into law which you explicitly stated didn't happen.

.

This is for you Marty. Showing you as clear as day that, indeed, somebody is claiming that. 2 One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

And you said nobody is claiming It!

[RingoMcCartney]

Number 1 is exactly what I said, the Tories taking a Lib Dem manifesto promise and enacting it.

No one is claiming number 2 has happened.

See the above post Marty!

[aggi]

Huffing and puffing a bit now aggi.

And despite you clearly attempting to split hairs it's not working.

You've already conceded to the statement -

The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto

Now see if you can spot the difference between the 2 statements below-

1, the government of the day nicks an idea and puts it through the legislative process, to gain popularity.

2. One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

I hope you can and stop pretending you can't. Cos if you can't and more people think like you. We could have a constitutional crisis on our hands!!!!

You're the only person saying number 2. Again What part of Labour's manifesto, of the lib dems manifesto or the greens manifesto, has been, is or will be enacted into law?
Answer - non

Where is the caveat that it doesn't count if the conservatives put it through? Did you mean something else but not actually write that and then desperately diverge from your original point to try and prove you're right, that doesn't sound like you.

[aggi]

This is for you Marty. Showing you as clear as day that, indeed, somebody is claiming that. 2 One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

And you said nobody is claiming It!

Nope, absolutely no reference in that as to who was putting the manifesto promise into law.

[Greenmile]

And REMAIN said we'd be leaving the single market

Here's the prime minister saying it on various occasions. Along with the chancellor

https://youtu.be/9fDn0MvcHQ4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is Andrew Neild reminding a flustered Nick Clegg that he said we'd be leaving the single market.

https://youtu.be/PJt3bEA_ylg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Project Fear innit.

[SmudgetheClaret]

You don’t recall or won’t recall Turtle ? so Osbourne didn’t say we would lose the 800k or so jobs and it wasn’t mentioned that planes might be grounded ? come on at least be honest and as for attacking if losing an argument which I’m not by the way I’ve read some of your stuff and you have a brass neck saying that !!

[Greenmile]

After my above post, lo and behold, on Newsnight tonight there is a big article on the border arrangements with some expert interviews suggesting it can, after all, be done. The only issue is whether the EU / Ireland allow it to be done. Does that make you want to stay in, instead, or fire you up more and want to leave? British folk don’t like being bullied, and that is what this is.

We’re all sick of experts, innit.

[ClaretMoffitt]

- Net migration in 2015 = 336,000

- Net Migration in 2017 = 230,000


The key reason people voted out was this figure right here. Just shy of 350,000 people entering a small country every year is too high. We have a housing crisis, we have a socialised health service, we have stretched public services. Creating what is essentially a new city the size of Leicester (without the extra space) every single year is too much and any rational person knows it. Brexit is working on the key issue that people voted for it under, and it hasn't even really begun yet.

[JohnMcGreal]

- Net migration in 2015 = 336,000

- Net Migration in 2017 = 230,000


The key reason people voted out was this figure right here. Just shy of 350,000 people entering a small country every year is too high. We have a housing crisis, we have a socialised health service, we have stretched public services. Creating what is essentially a new city the size of Leicester (without the extra space) is too much and any rational person knows it. Brexit is working on the key issue that people voted for it under, and it hasn't even really begun yet.

When the people who are so concerned about housing shortages and stretched public services consistently vote against parties who want to build more social housing and fund public services properly, they can spare me their faux concern.

They don't care about building more housing, or funding public services properly, or taxing wealth a bit more to make either of those things possible. They just hate foreign people coming here.

[ClaretMoffitt]

When the people who are so concerned about housing shortages and stretched public services consistently vote against parties who want to build more social housing and fund public services properly, they can spare me their faux concern.

They don't care about building more housing, or funding public services properly, or taxing wealth a bit more to make either of those things possible. They just hate foreign people coming here.

When those same parties plan to destroy any work done on new housing by allowing free movement of people and an open border policy then their promises of milk and honey don't really amount to much.

It would be simple for you and the left if you could just brush this issue off as "they just hate foreign people" and I suppose in a way you can, as the media and politicians are happy to back up your assertion, but that doesn't make it factually correct.

[JohnMcGreal]

You said it yourself moffit, the key figure that people care about is that net migration figure. It really is the main issue for a lot of people.

It's a shame these people can't get as worked up over figures like local councils losing nearly 50% of their budgets over the last 8 years, or having 21,000 less police officers under this government. That doesn't seem to matter. They will even go out in droves to vote for more of that.

It's easy to accuse people of just hating foreigners when that's pretty much all they demonstrate.

[Bfcboyo]

"Liberal"

These are the new breed of liberals. "We love equality if you do not agree with us your a prick and we want you dead".

Little rabid Paddy Ashdown's running round the heath foaming at the mouth gritting their teeth, they have no reason in them no release any compassion against those taking action against their belief.

I can't get no sleep.