Brexit betrayal complete so..

[dsr]

So go on then.
Assuming they can find the 48 (I believe that's the number) MPs to trigger a leadership election, who would stand against May?
There were apparently only 7 Cabinet ministers who opposed May's "deal". (Out of 27)
Johnson would not stand at this point, since his career would be over if he lost, (and he probably doesn't really believe he could see brexit through anyway. He's an opportunist.)
Leadsom might have a go. Davis can't stand I don't think, and Gove has changed sides.
Backbencher JRM might be persuaded to stand, but if he did, then how many Tory MPs would actually vote for him?.
The left / soft brexiteers wouldn't field a candidate against May for fear of splitting the vote, and weakening her position. (It's already weak enough as she relies on the DUP and tries to keep all sides happy).
Weakening May's position could potentially lead to a vote of confidence and the govt. falling. The Tories greatest fear is losing power to Corbyn, and self-preservation will come before all. The whips would be out in force for May.

Self-preservation will come before all - I agree. The anti-Brexit Tories don't want their barely-Brexit to fall at the last hurdle, but they also don't want to lose their seats. How many of the Remain camp, whether fanatical or lukewarm think that May is going to lead the Tories to victory at the next election?

And if it comes to a vote of confidence, with a 3-line whip and the DUP not happy, she could lose it anyway, even with 100% Tory support. The more I think of it, the more I think she'll be gone by Christmas. (And hopefully, gone by the time of the World Cup Final.)

[thatdberight]

Why don't we just stay in the EU? I'm fed up of hearing about it, and its obvious nobody wants brexit anymore.

I must be nobody, then.

[nil_desperandum]

And if it comes to a vote of confidence, with a 3-line whip and the DUP not happy, she could lose it anyway, even with 100% Tory support. The more I think of it, the more I think she'll be gone by Christmas. (And hopefully, gone by the time of the World Cup Final.)

She most likely would lose a vote of confidence so that's exactly why the Tory MPs will back her with a large majority. The Tory right wouldn't under any circumstances risk bringing the govt down and letting Corbyn in - which was exactly my point.
I expect her to announce her intention to stand down in April 2019, (i.e. as soon as we have "left" the EU) this will allow ample time for her successor to try to win the 2022 election.
Anyway Baker and "Suella" gone now too so the ground is shifting all the time, - Gen Election a real possibility now I think.

[nil_desperandum]

[Duplicate deleted]

[tiger76]

She most likely would lose a vote of confidence so that's exactly why the Tory MPs will back her with a large majority. The Tory right wouldn't under any circumstances risk bringing the govt down and letting Corbyn in - which was exactly my point.
I expect her to announce her intention to stand down in April 2019, (i.e. as soon as we have "left" the EU) this will allow ample time for her successor to try to win the 2022 election.
Anyway Baker and "Suella" gone now too so the ground is shifting all the time, - Gen Election a real possibility now I think.

Brenda from Bristol will be chuffed

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

I must be nobody, then.

Yep

[Lancasterclaret]

Imagine thinking a unicorn brexit which still looks impossible to implement is worth risking a Corybn government for.

[Imploding Turtle]

Imagine thinking a unicorn brexit which still looks impossible to implement is worth risking a Corybn government for.

You assume they care more about what's good for the country than what's good for the Tories. Have you learned nothing from the 2015 Tory election promise of a referendum?

[thatdberight]

Yep

Such has been the attitude of many Remain voters since it happened...

[thatdberight]

You assume they care more about what's good for the country than what's good for the Tories. Have you learned nothing from the 2015 Tory election promise of a referendum?

So the people shouldn't have been allowed a say on the matter? Are you up for scrapping elections too?

[Imploding Turtle]

So the people shouldn't have been allowed a say on the matter? Are you up for scrapping elections too?

Ah yes, the good old "if you oppose a referendum then you oppose democracy" nonsense.

I opposed the referendum because there was no way the public could be adequately informed enough to make an informed decision. An opinion that has only got stronger in the last two years as i've watched the mechanisms by which the public is supposed to be informed tell the public, among other things, that judges are the enemy of the people and that the PM shouldn't need parliamentary approval.

But keep going with that tired old nonsense. I'll never get bored of explaining how right I've been proven.

[If it be your will]

.

[thatdberight]

Ah yes, the good old "if you oppose a referendum then you oppose democracy" nonsense.

I opposed the referendum because there was no way the public could be adequately informed enough to make an informed decision. An opinion that has only got stronger in the last two years as i've watched the mechanisms by which the public is supposed to be informed tell the public, among other things, that judges are the enemy of the people and that the PM shouldn't need parliamentary approval.

But keep going with that tired old nonsense. I'll never get bored of explaining how right I've been proven.

But the public can make an informed decision on a slate of manifestos that include defence of the realm, NHS funding, relationships with the EU, immigration policy, tertiary education funding, airport expansion policy, justice system reform, taxation reform, social care policy, housing policy etc? Really?

Would you take the vote away from those who are less intellectually capable? Clearly, there will be a group of people who will not be able to make informed decisions about amy of those, let alone all of them?

Just trying to understand how far your "can't be adequately informed" restrictions go.

[Imploding Turtle]

But the public can make an informed decision on a slate of manifestos that include defence of the realm, NHS funding, relationships with the EU, immigration policy, tertiary education funding, airport expansion policy, justice system reform, taxation reform, social care policy, housing policy etc? Really?

Would you take the vote away from those who are less intellectually capable. Clearly, there will be a group of people who will not be able to make informed decisions about amy of those, let alone all of them?

Just trying to understand how far your "can't be adequately informed" restrictions go.

I'm sorry, is your argument now that the public can't make an informed decision on other thing either, so why not let them make an uninformed decision that can't be reversed the same way a general election can? Really?

On this specific issue i didn't believe the public could be informed enough to make an irreversible decision on the country's future, and every day since the referendum result I've been proven right.
If you want to tell me we can have a referendum on EU membership every 5 years where we can change our minds if we realised we've ****** up the last time then by all means, lets do that. But i don't think you want that.

I said we couldn't be adequately informed because we have neither the politicians or the kind press required to keep us informed. I was right.

The public couldn't even be adequately informed enough to see through the Conservative and Labour bullshit about something objectively better than FPTP as AV, so how the **** can we be expected to see through bullshit about the EU? Especially since the media has spent decades lying about it.

So yes, I opposed the referendum. There are also a whole fuckton of other things i'd opposed referenda about.

[dsr]

I'm sorry, is your argument now that the public can't make an informed decision on other thing either, so why not let them make an uninformed decision that can't be reversed the same way a general election can? Really?

On this specific issue i didn't believe the public could be informed enough to make an irreversible decision on the country's future, and every day since the referendum result I've been proven right.
If you want to tell me we can have a referendum on EU membership every 5 years where we can change our minds if we realised we've ****** up the last time then by all means, lets do that. But i don't think you want that.

I said we couldn't be adequately informed because we have neither the politicians or the kind press required to keep us informed. I was right.

The public couldn't even be adequately informed enough to see through the Conservative and Labour bullshit about something objectively better than FPTP as AV, so how the **** can we be expected to see through bullshit about the EU? Especially since the media has spent decades lying about it.

So yes, I opposed the referendum. There are also a whole fuckton of other things i'd opposed referenda about.

If you can't trust politicians to tell us the truth, then why would you trust politicians to do the right thing re. the EU? Wouldn't it be better (in a democracy) to let the vote be decided by the ignorant people rather than the self-serving political "elite"?

[RingoMcCartney]

Labour MPs to meet the TORIES chief whip today to make sure they vote to support Teresa Mays Chequers statement.

Crossing the floor to take orders from the Tories. Treacherous rats. The lot of them.

This is a political establishment stitch up.

[Lancasterclaret]

Eh?

Its an invitation to see how the agreement looks. Thats it.

Whether you like it or not , its the only way to get the country (WHICH IS MORE THAN JUST BURNLEY) through this.

You way hasn't got enough votes, my way hasn't. ITs way hasn't, DSR way hasn't, ITBYW way hasn't.

Do you see that at least?

[RingoMcCartney]

George Galloway on Talkradio sayimg any Labour Mps attending the meetimg with the Tories chief whip should be thrown out of the Labour party.

[Lancasterclaret]

This is the George Galloway who was, er, thrown out of the Labour Party?

That one yeah?

[AndrewJB]

Isn’t using the term “betrayal” just a little over the top?

[TVC15]

Labour MPs to meet the TORIES chief whip today to make sure they vote to support Teresa Mays Chequers statement.

Crossing the floor to take orders from the Tories. Treacherous rats. The lot of them.

This is a political establishment stitch up.

Maybe they are meeting up with them to find out WTF is going on ?
I doubt that at a point when May and her cabinet are on the point of collapse The Labour Party are going to offer a way out for them.

[RingoMcCartney]

This is the George Galloway who was, er, thrown out of the Labour Party?

That one yeah?

Yes

And he's got more socialism in his little finger than that shower of chardonnay communists that have turned the Labour party from a party that used to represent the interests of the British proletariat, to an Islington dinner party.

[RingoMcCartney]

Maybe they are meeting up with them to find out WTF is going on ?
I doubt that at a point when May and her cabinet are on the point of collapse The Labour Party are going to offer a way out for them.

Calls on talk radio for the Labour Mps attending the Tories chief whip for them to be sacked, named and shamed for conniving and be coconspirators in trying to block the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed.

He's a Labour man who's saying it to Galloway!

[Lancasterclaret]

George Galloway has even less principles then Boris Johnson Ringo.

If he's the face of old Labour (he isn't btw, Jeremy Corbyn is) then Labour are as f**ked as UKIP are.

[Imploding Turtle]

George Galloway has even less principles then Boris Johnson Ringo.

If he's the face of old Labour (he isn't btw, Jeremy Corbyn is) then Labour are as f**ked as UKIP are.

He has some principles, it's just that they're very much aligned with the UK's enemies rather than the UK itself. He'd be a left-wing version of Donald Trump were he ever handed power - entirely owned by our enemies.

[TVC15]

Calls on talk radio for the Labour Mps attending the Tories chief whip for them to be sacked, named and shamed for conniving and be coconspirators in trying to block the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed.

He's a Labour man who's saying it to Galloway!

So that’s
1. Talk Radio listeners
2. George Galloway

You know what - i’m good with making my own mind up cheers.

[martin_p]

Maybe they are meeting up with them to find out WTF is going on ?
I doubt that at a point when May and her cabinet are on the point of collapse The Labour Party are going to offer a way out for them.

Finding out exactly what you’re voting on before voting is for losers!!!

[RingoMcCartney]

The EU referendum, and its aftermath, will be used globally for generations to show the flaws of direct democracy.

Democracy - it means sometimes you lose.

That's one of its flaws that Remoaners have never accepted.

[RingoMcCartney]

So that’s
1. Talk Radio listeners
2. George Galloway

You know what - i’m good with making my own mind up cheers.

Glad to hear it.

[Imploding Turtle]

Democracy - it means sometimes you lose.

That's one of its flaws that Remoaners have never accepted.

Says someone who's never really accepted that his side won. And still refuses to accept that we're still leaving.

[martin_p]

Democracy - it means sometimes you lose.

That's one of its flaws that Remoaners have never accepted.

Democracy - it’s not black and white.

As people have been trying to explain to you for weeks (if not months), unless your mandate is huge and clear then you sometimes have to be pragmatic and take on the views of the losing side to reach a consensus. The referendum didn’t give the winning side a huge mandate, neither was it clear what the mandate was, hence the situation we find ourselves in.

[RingoMcCartney]

Democracy - it’s not black and white.

As people have been trying to explain to you for weeks (if not months), unless your mandate is huge and clear then you sometimes have to be pragmatic and take on the views of the losing side to reach a consensus. The referendum didn’t give the winning side a huge mandate, neither was it clear what the mandate was, hence the situation we find ourselves in.

Prior to the referendum result, was there a stipulation on how big a margin there should be, in order that the result be definate and respected?

No.

And the reason we find ourselves where we are is the fact that Remoaners have never accepted the result.

Democracy - it means sometimes you lose. And you did. Again Marty!

[martin_p]

Prior to the referendum result, was there a stipulation on how big a margin there should be, in order that the result be definate and respected?

No.

And the reason we find ourselves where we are is the fact that Remoaners have never accepted the result.

Ah, it’s all the remoaners fault. Wondered when that would start.

No there wasn’t a stipulation about the winning margin. But when it’s close you can’t just ignore those who voted against or you won’t be in power long. That’s why May called an election. An attempt to gain a parliamentary majority that meant she could do what she wanted. The British voters weren’t buying that.

[Imploding Turtle]

It's never their fault, is it? It's always someone elses fault.

[NottsClaret]

Referendums are a really bad idea. Especially now we've conflated it with parliamentary democracy. And even democracy, as Churchill said, is the worst form of government, except for all the others..

If I thought I might need a heart bypass I wouldn't want to leave it to a public yes/no vote. 'Democracy' wouldn't magically throw up the correct answer. I'd probably want the opinion and - god forbid - the expertise of people who know what they're talking about. Perhaps even assemble a few hundred of them, selected by people they've impressed with their ideas and performance over a number of years and then get them to work out the best thing to do. Or alternatively, you know, just ask the X-Factor audience to come up with a black and white answer to a hugely complex question they don't understand.

[Imploding Turtle]

Imagine if we put "should we do anything about global warming and man-made climate change?" to a referendum.

We just wouldn't. We'd want experts to inform our politicians and we'd want our politicians to react to the advice of those experts.
I'd oppose a referendum on that just as much as i did on the EU and thatllberight would still try to slime me as someone who wants to take away the vote of dumb people, or something. (if he's consistent)

[RingoMcCartney]

No there wasn’t a stipulation about the winning margin.
.

You lost.

[martin_p]

You lost.

I accepted that the day after the referendum. The conversation then became which was the best way to leave. You seem to think that was decided by the referendum and only in the last few days are picking up the fact it was all up for grabs.

[RingoMcCartney]

. The British voters weren’t buying that.

84 % voted for parties whose manifestos pledged to "Leave the single market"
"End free movement of people"
"End the jurisdiction of the ECJ"

The Chequers proposal does none of the above in practical terms. That's what Daviss letter points out. And that's why it will prove so damaging to the Tories. And by conniving with them, and meeting their chief whip, for ***** sake, will lose Labour votes as well.

Establishment stitch up.

A BREXIT IN NAME ONLY IS DEMOCRACY IN NAME ONLY.

[Imploding Turtle]

I accepted that the day after the referendum. The conversation then became which was the best way to leave. You seem to think that was decided by the referendum and only in the last few days are picking up the fact it was all up for grabs.

It's like Spurs winning the first leg and forgetting to turn up for the second leg. Ringo is Harry Redknapp at 90 minutes wondering what the **** just happened.

[bluelabrador16]

Imploding Turtle

"He has some principles, it's just that they're very much aligned with the UK's enemies rather than the UK itself. He'd be a left-wing version of Donald Trump were he ever handed power - entirely owned by our enemies."

Just for clarification:

Who are our enemies..

Who are our friends...

[martin_p]

84 % voted for parties whose manifestos pledged to "Leave the single market"
"End free movement of people"
"End the jurisdiction of the ECJ"

The Chequers proposal does not of the above in practical terms. That's what Daviss letter points out. And that's why it will prove so damaging to the Tories. And by conniving with them, and meeting their chief whip, for ***** sake, will lose Labour votes as well.

Establishment stitch up.

A BREXIT IN NAME ONLY IS DEMOCRACY IN NAME ONLY.

But Ringo, losing manifestos are thrown away, you can’t include people who voted for losing manifestos in your figures

[claretonthecoast1882]

Imploding Turtle



Just for clarification:

Who are our enemies..

Who are our friends...

Enemies - Palestine

Friends - Israel

[RingoMcCartney]

But Ringo, losing manifestos are thrown away, you can’t include people who voted for losing manifestos in your figures

Oh Marty you really are desperate to try and even up the score aren't You!

You're right losing manifestos are binned after an election. But they were once part of a live campaign and people voted on the basis of them. You are still able to simply look back and make a simple calculation of what percentage of the electorate voted for them. It doesn't in any way shape or form they will be enacted does it now.

So did the manifestos contain the 3 pledges I stated? Answer - yes.

Are the losing sides binned now? Answer - yes

Are the Tories, the winners, reneging on their manifesto pledge as well? Answer - yes

Did 84% of voters for them? Answer - yes

You're trying to hard Marty old boy!

So while were the subject let's have a little back at the loses youve suffered-

You said that you had "evidence" that ending free movement of people would not help to stop exploitation and people trafficking.

None came. 1.0

You had the "facts" that showed the referendum result was NOT the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed.

None came. 2.0

You tried to claim that we would not be leaving the ECHR . When we voted to Leave. Yet we never were!!!!! 3.0

You claimed that to be self deprecating you had to include "self" in what you were saying. 4.0

Then you posted examples of self deprecation to prove it!

Problem was Marty these examples included self deprecation that had no mention of "self!!!!!" 5.0

And to top it all. One of the best was a quote from someone called Marty!!!!!! 6.0

[Lancasterclaret]

Not sure this is going to help your blood pressure Ringo

From the Times Brussels correspondent

"If May falls the fallback plan is to extend Article 50, following a British request, delaying Brexit, until new government gets its act together
Legal preparations for that plan B are in place"

[martin_p]

Enjoy your win Ringo, from your posts today you’re obviously delighted about it. Keep that rage burning!

Edit - by the way, your post totting up the score in your little imaginary game comes across as very sad.

[RingoMcCartney]

Enjoy your win Ringo, from your posts today you’re obviously delighted about it. Keep that rage burning!

Edit - by the way, your post totting up the score in your little imaginary game comes across as very sad.

And enjoy trying to claw back some respectability, to the current score.

Edit - pretending the way you seized upon what you percieved as a mistake, on my part, with such glee, wasn't you desperately trying to even things up. Comes across as very obvious.

[martin_p]

And enjoy trying to claw back some respectability, to the current score.

Edit - pretending the way you seized upon what you percieved as a mistake, on my part, with such glee, wasn't you desperately trying to even things up. Comes across as very obvious.

Well if your pretend game makes you happy then knock yourself out, you must’ve had a miserable day today.

[RingoMcCartney]

Well if your pretend game makes you happy then knock yourself out, you must’ve had a miserable day today.

Not too bad for a Monday. Rapidly improved by your flaccid attempt to point score though!

Happy days!

[If it be your will]

.