We'll keep the Palestinian flag flying high

[tim_noone]

I think it's unfair to label Arthur under that cloud. He fought tooth and nail for the miners, in the end only to undo them taking Thatcher on at her own game. Everything he forecast was ultimately right.
That's why it's so stupid to call for a general strike to force an election. What's to stop the Tories going on strike to force another........ The people who spout this crap are 60 years out of date. We are back in an era where the Unions through momentum are wagging the dog. The best thing Labour did was introduce OMOV, that's why they got elected, because the party started standing up for the people, instead of the Unions.
The pressure being put on to deselect moderate Socialists is suicidal for the party. In the eyes of momentum I'd be classed as a right winger, and I'm anything but. The people they think they represent, the working classes, aren't idiots, they will soon smell a rat.
I think others are probably right, they don't want to be elected, they'd rather have the power in the opposition, just so they can spout shite, but never have to do anything to prove it.

Arthur scargills vision of what would happen to a complete industry and communities was spot on. Irrespective of his grace and favour apartment and remuneration etc. That is often brought up. The government were Brutal and walked over the mining communities without a care in the world.

[walter the softy]

Aye, I listened to him being interviewed for a podcast and he's a million miles away from that. Came across really well.

His basic mantra seems to be one of "rights and responsibilities". I think this would sit well with a lot of people on here if given a chance.

In general though, I think if some people took their favoured party glasses off, we might see more constructive debate. Unfortunately, discourse seems to be increasingly polarised and aggressive these days. Why that is the case is a mystery to me. Perhaps it's an antidote to boredom or something.

[Chobulous]

His basic mantra seems to be one of "rights and responsibilities". I think this would sit well with a lot of people on here if given a chance.

In general though, I think if some people took their favoured party glasses off, we might see more constructive debate. Unfortunately, discourse seems to be increasingly polarised and aggressive these days. Why that is the case is a mystery to me. Perhaps it's an antidote to boredom or something.

Unfortunately the temptation to resort to personal abuse is too much for some, night owls and pedagogues come to mind.

[If it be your will]

.

[AndrewJB]

Okay, not bad. (I'm in the camp that we need to start leaving income based taxes alone, and start introducing taxes on wealth instead, though.)

Agreed on wealth taxes. Even a wealth ceiling.

[Lancasterclaret]

Wealth taxes make perfect sense, but not a wealth ceiling.

[aggi]

Aye, I listened to him being interviewed for a podcast and he's a million miles away from that. Came across really well.

Talks a good game but he's not particularly popular in his constituency. Following on from the riots a few years back he's achieved very little in the area. From talking to people who've had dealings with him the consensus seems to be that he's limited which is why he's stalled from being one of the bright prospects of the labour party.

[martin_p]

We already had the vote, democracy says you go with the result not vote again, and again, until you get the result that suits you.
That's democracy Brussels style

If another vote was asking the same question you might be half wayy to having a small point. But it wouldn't be asking the ame question, no one has ever asked for a vote asking exactly the same question.

[walter the softy]

Talks a good game but he's not particularly popular in his constituency. Following on from the riots a few years back he's achieved very little in the area. From talking to people who've had dealings with him the consensus seems to be that he's limited which is why he's stalled from being one of the bright prospects of the labour party.

My impression is the complete opposite as regards his popularity. He got 80% of the vote at the 2017 election. Actually increased his majority substantially. This a while after the riots. This would seem to be a testament to his popularity and his work in Tottenham. It is difficult to know what to do about the deep seated problems in the poorest areas of the inner cities (or old Northern industrial towns) but it is probably too much to expect an MP to be able to solve these issues on their own.

Probably not destined for the leadership and possibly not an intellectual heavyweight but, for me, he hit the right note after the riots at the risk of making himself unpopular. In general I think he is a good representative.

Anyway, I won't derail the thread more.

UTC!

[Caballo]

Agreed on wealth taxes. Even a wealth ceiling.

Politics of envy!

[aggi]

My impression is the complete opposite as regards his popularity. He got 80% of the vote at the 2017 election. Actually increased his majority substantially. This a while after the riots. This would seem to be a testament to his popularity and his work in Tottenham. It is difficult to know what to do about the deep seated problems in the poorest areas of the inner cities (or old Northern industrial towns) but it is probably too much to expect an MP to be able to solve these issues on their own.

Probably not destined for the leadership and possibly not an intellectual heavyweight but, for me, he hit the right note after the riots at the risk of making himself unpopular. In general I think he is a good representative.

Anyway, I won't derail the thread more.

UTC!

Most labour candidates would get similar in the constituency with the reaction to the Brexit vote, the council is similar and that's gone through a fair variety of scandals and controversy in recent years. (It's been a labour seat for the past hundred years or so.) I'm in that constituency so probably have a slightly different view, the common complaint is that he spoke well but there were few actions (or interactions with the people in the area) to back it up.

[walter the softy]

Most labour candidates would get similar in the constituency with the reaction to the Brexit vote, the council is similar and that's gone through a fair variety of scandals and controversy in recent years. (It's been a labour seat for the past hundred years or so.) I'm in that constituency so probably have a slightly different view, the common complaint is that he spoke well but there were few actions (or interactions with the people in the area) to back it up.

Fair comment, Aggi. You could be right about the Brexit effect.

As it goes, I also lived in the constituency but I am going back a few years now and, yes, it had its scandals back then as well. I suppose the broader point is that even if Lammy is just talking a good game, his views, his upbringing and his positive attitude to the genuine adversities he had to face in his early life do not square with the common accusations made about the modern Labour Party leadership.

[aggi]

Fair comment, Aggi. You could be right about the Brexit effect.

As it goes, I also lived in the constituency but I am going back a few years now and, yes, it had its scandals back then as well. I suppose the broader point is that even if Lammy is just talking a good game, his views, his upbringing and his positive attitude to the genuine adversities he had to face in his early life do not square with the common accusations made about the modern Labour Party leadership.

True, I'd certainly agree with that. He's very much a modern politician, I think a different Labour party would make far more use of him.

[Stayingup]

I believe Palestine was stolen and should be restored but I have no anti-semitic feelings whatsoever. The one does not automatically lead to the other.

Stolen? Read your history mate. It wasn't stolen at all. Where do you think Jews came From? Where was Jesus born? He was a Jew

[Stayingup]

Pity about this thread. Hijacked by the unknowing naive lefties again. Pity
I hope Corbyn gets in for your sake. You'll find out what it will be like when there is no power in winter and all the money which provides prosperity has been moved offshore - where I will be in that event.
I don't want to live in commnist country with no army or weapons to protect us and the land completely carpeted with this inefficient, expensive bird killing devices. No sir.

[Damo]

Wealth ceiling. Wtf

[AndrewJB]

Politics of envy!

God no! My position is purely pragmatic.

Great wealth brings with it power. The power to influence public opinion, fund political parties, and distort democracy itself. You see this especially in the Third World, and economies that serve a small group of people while leaving the needs of a significant portion of the population unmet are breeding grounds for revolution and disorder. Even conservative economists say an unbalanced society like this is a bad thing.

In the UK inequality is rising, we've had austerity imposed on those who can least afford it, and throughout the government has protected the interests of the rich. You could probably tinker around the edges and make the system more equal, but to me I think there's no point in having citizens who are super-rich (hundreds of millions or billions).

[Rowls]

Occam's razor. What's more likely? That Labour actually banned the EU flag, or that a steward was an idiot?

I understand that the former helps your narrative, but that's not a logical way to approach a question.

You're quite right and your logic is absolute. Perfect. Oscar's razor. Impeccable.

That's the trouble with these lone-wolf stewards though isn't it? We know they're out there - somewhere - deviously plotting to ban the EU flag where the authorities would just love to fly it.

All we can do is be constantly vigilant against Fascism and the associated lone-wolf Brextremists. And hope that MI5 is monitoring these radical stewards.

Everybody stay safe out there.

[bluelabrador16]

Stayingup

Stolen? Read your history mate. It wasn't stolen at all. Where do you think Jews came From? Where was Jesus born? He was a Jew

Education time for the ignorant, bitter and twisted:

The Invention of the Jewish People .... Shlomo Sand

Review ... 'Shlomo Sand has written a remarkable book. ... Anyone interested in understanding the contemporary Middle East should read this book.' -- Tony Judt '...a formidable polemic against claims that Israel has a moral right to define itself as an explicitly and exclusively Jewish society, in which non-Jews, such as Palestino-Israelis, are culturally and politically marginalised.' -- Max Hastings, Sunday Times 'Shlomo Sand's The Invention of the Jewish People is both a welcome and, in the case of Israel, much needed exercise in the dismantling of nationalist historical myth and a plea for an Israel that belongs equally to all its inhabitants. Perhaps books combining passion and erudition don t change political situations, but if they did, this one would count as a landmark.' --Eric Hobshawm, Observer, Books of the year

Customer Review.....1...A thorough and interesting update on 'The Khazar Hypothesis'. In this book Shlomo Sand goes into considerable detail about the origins of the Ashkenazi Jews, providing considerable support for the view that they are of Khazar origin, and are a Slavic, not a Semitic people.

Arthur Koestler's pioneering book, 'The Thirteenth Tribe' from 1976 was subjected to all the ire that the powerful Israeli propaganda machine could throw at it. Sand's book is much better researched, and written in a less provocative manner.

2....The Palestinians are the descendants of the original Judeans, and the modern Israelis are the descendants of Eastern European converts to Judaism. This makes the current situation in Israel even more heartbreaking.....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Invention-Jewi ... bc?ie=UTF8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Review....This book traces the history of the ancient Khazar Empire, a major but almost forgotten power in Eastern Europe, which in the Dark Ages became converted to Judaism. Khazaria was finally wiped out by the forces of Genghis Khan, but evidence indicates that the Khazars themselves migrated to Poland and formed the cradle of Western Jewry......

[Chobulous]

******* loony

[Lancasterclaret]

The Khazars did not migrate to Poland!

And the fascinating thing about the Khazars was that they converted to Judaism as a political decision, as it meant they could live with their Christian and Muslim neighbours without getting attacked on purely religous grounds.

Didn't stop them getting destroyed though!

[bluelabrador16]

Just for clarication, Lancasterclaret, are you challenging the following:

Shlomo Sand goes into considerable detail about the origins of the Ashkenazi Jews, providing considerable support for the view that they are of Khazar origin, and are a Slavic, not a Semitic people.

[Damo]

Evidently, momentum is full of bat **** mentalists.
Anyone who lives in the real world has no option other than to vote Tory anymore

[Colburn_Claret]

If another vote was asking the same question you might be half wayy to having a small point. But it wouldn't be asking the ame question, no one has ever asked for a vote asking exactly the same question.

And that is exactly what Brussels do, change the question slightly, and hope for a different result.
The question was do you want to remain or leave, not remain or leave only if we get a good deal.
The only people asking for another vote are the people who lost the first ballot and voted remain. No one else is bothered. If people didn't understand what they were voting for, and the possible consequences of that vote, then they probably won't have any idea about the possible consequences of voting again and changing their mind.
There was always a possibility that a deal wouldn't be struck. Partly because Brussels are spitting their dummy at their Federalist vision dying, and partly because we have an idiot leading the country. The arguments for remaining and leaving haven't changed one jot.

[Colburn_Claret]

Stayingup



Education time for the ignorant, bitter and twisted:

The Invention of the Jewish People .... Shlomo Sand

If any of that was relevant, why isn't Corbyn and his cronies demanding the returning of America to the native Indians. They suffered far worse than the Palestinians, not that I'm belittling their plight.

[Lancasterclaret]

Challenging what exactly?

The Jewish faith existed before the Khazars, and it was centered on Jerusalem and the Kingdoms of Israel and Judea.

The Khazars were Jewish, and no doubt at all that their descendants stayed around in Eastern Europe, but there were Jews all over the Europe because of the various diasporas.

I might well be wrong because the diasporas are not exactly my area, but I'm pretty sure the large groups of Jews in Eastern Europe got there because of the various persecutions in Christian Europe.

[Imploding Turtle]

And that is exactly what Brussels do, change the question slightly, and hope for a different result.
The question was do you want to remain or leave, not remain or leave only if we get a good deal.
The only people asking for another vote are the people who lost the first ballot and voted remain. No one else is bothered. If people didn't understand what they were voting for, and the possible consequences of that vote, then they probably won't have any idea about the possible consequences of voting again and changing their mind.
There was always a possibility that a deal wouldn't be struck. Partly because Brussels are spitting their dummy at their Federalist vision dying, and partly because we have an idiot leading the country. The arguments for remaining and leaving haven't changed one jot.

You're not an idiot, so why are you being dishonest? No one who voted Leave knew what Leaving would look like. The original referendum was flawed (not to mention corrupt) because no one could possibly know what they were voting for if they voted to leave. All that we want is to have a vote on leaving when we actually know what leaving would look like. If you support leaving the EU then why would you not want a say on how we leave?

There are people who were convinced to vote to Leave based on the promise of a Norway-model, or another favourable deal. It was considered absurd that we'd leave without a deal. So if we end up with a No Deal scenario then how can you possibly argue that their vote is being enacted? And how on earth is it a democratic decision if what people voted for was ambiguous?

Not only that, how on earth is a binary choice referendum democratic when one side has multiple scenarios, all campaigned for, while the other side has only one scenario. "Leave" was a catch-all because no one knew what it would mean if we left. That's not democracy. It's bullshit and you're not stupid enough to not know it.

[Lancasterclaret]

Its like the other thread about us sleepwalking into an EU superstate without a vote.

Patently ridiculous, but to admit to that would be to admit that the EU is democratic.

Its so silly really.

[bluelabrador16]

Might be worth a listen.

Shlomo Sand talks to George Galloway about the Invention of Jewish People

Shlomo......"the exile of the Jews 2000 years ago didn't happen..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-lm_ueaqbk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shlomo Sand: 'There are Israeli, not Jewish people'

"Jews living in Tel Aviv, New York or Moscow do not share the same secular practices and language and thus cannot be called one people, says Professor Shlomo Sand."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq6EPYLfcM0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 10.54

Comment: " ....but the Bible described Christ as a dark black man ."

[tiger76]

Pity about this thread. Hijacked by the unknowing naive lefties again. Pity
I hope Corbyn gets in for your sake. You'll find out what it will be like when there is no power in winter and all the money which provides prosperity has been moved offshore - where I will be in that event.
I don't want to live in commnist country with no army or weapons to protect us and the land completely carpeted with this inefficient, expensive bird killing devices. No sir.

Hope if Corbyn is elected he doesn't go down the Venezuelan economic path,but sadly i fear he will try.

http://www.itv.com/news/2018-09-27/the- ... ess-money/

Images like this put 1st world problems into perspective,the annoying aspect is that an oil-rich nation should be able to provide basic services at least.

[dsr]

In the UK inequality is rising, we've had austerity imposed on those who can least afford it, and throughout the government has protected the interests of the rich. You could probably tinker around the edges and make the system more equal, but to me I think there's no point in having citizens who are super-rich (hundreds of millions or billions).

Obviously you can reduce inequality by expelling all the rich people, but will that do any good? I presume you aren't expecting to actually get any money off the super-rich, because as we both already know, that money is abroad, and if its owner goes abroad too, the UK government has no way to get its hands on any of it.

[Colburn_Claret]

You're not an idiot, so why are you being dishonest? No one who voted Leave knew what Leaving would look like. The original referendum was flawed (not to mention corrupt) because no one could possibly know what they were voting for if they voted to leave. All that we want is to have a vote on leaving when we actually know what leaving would look like. If you support leaving the EU then why would you not want a say on how we leave?

There are people who were convinced to vote to Leave based on the promise of a Norway-model, or another favourable deal. It was considered absurd that we'd leave without a deal. So if we end up with a No Deal scenario then how can you possibly argue that their vote is being enacted? And how on earth is it a democratic decision if what people voted for was ambiguous?

Not only that, how on earth is a binary choice referendum democratic when one side has multiple scenarios, all campaigned for, while the other side has only one scenario. "Leave" was a catch-all because no one knew what it would mean if we left. That's not democracy. It's bullshit and you're not stupid enough to not know it.

Nobody still knows what leave will mean, because people on both sides are dishonest. I've never claimed anything, other than I believe that long term, we will he better off with our fiscal options ,along with many other rules and regulations, in our own hands.
I re iterate, the people claiming nobody understood are the losers, if remain had won, how many of them would be wanting another vote on the grounds that nobody understood. No one.

[Lancasterclaret]

Because everyone knew what remain meant.

You are using the daftest argument (in a pretty strong field of daft arguments) it has to be said.

[Colburn_Claret]

Because everyone knew what remain meant.

You are using the daftest argument (in a pretty strong field of daft arguments) it has to be said.

If they didn't know then, they still don't know now. So what's changed that requires another vote.

[If it be your will]

.

[Spijed]

if remain had won, how many of them would be wanting another vote on the grounds that nobody understood. No one.

Nigel Farage clearly said that we may have to have another if it was a win for the remain side.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... m-36306681" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

Hang on a sec

"Remain and reform" means "remain" -

The only problem I had with that call is that reinforces the idea that we have some sort of super control over the EU, which then leads people to believe things like "they need us more than we need them".

[If it be your will]

.

[Lancasterclaret]

But it doesn't though does it?

You've got

"Leave - but we'll still be in the SM and the CU"
"Leave - but we'll still be in the SM"
"Leave - but we'll stil be in the CU"
"Leave - but we'll still be in some sort of CU"
"Leave - but we'll still be in some sort of SM"
"Leave - and we'll stop all EU immigration"
"Leave - and we'll stop all immigration"
"Leave - and we'll kick out all immigrants"
"Leave - and we'll renationalise everything"
"Leave - and we'll have the lowest corporation tax ever"

etc etc etc

[If it be your will]

.

[dsr]

How about "Leave - an independent UK is better than being in the EU".

You remainers are still all obsessed with money money money. Money isn't everything. Nobody makes life decisions based purely on money; even if the EU continues its "rush to poverty" campaign, I don't believe that the difference will be anything like enough to justify crawling back.

[Lancasterclaret]

Everyone who voted remain recognised it was better than leaving it.

There wasn't a campaign for "Remain +", "Remain cakes and eat it" etc etc etc

There was a campaign for "Remaining in the EU"

[Lancasterclaret]

Two years of trying to simplify this so you get the Brexit you want doesn't change that fact the reality is a lot more complicated does it?

[Imploding Turtle]

How about "Leave - an independent UK is better than being in the EU".

You remainers are still all obsessed with money money money. Money isn't everything. Nobody makes life decisions based purely on money; even if the EU continues its "rush to poverty" campaign, I don't believe that the difference will be anything like enough to justify crawling back.

Your lot lied about £350m/week to get people to vote Leave but yeah, we're the ones obsessed over money.

[If it be your will]

.

[Colburn_Claret]

Nigel Farage clearly said that we may have to have another if it was a win for the remain side.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... m-36306681" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't speak for Nigel Farage only myself, but that would have been just as wrong as the present argument.

[dsr]

Brexit's got other threads. This one is Labour and Palestine.

[Spijed]

I don't speak for Nigel Farage only myself, but that would have been just as wrong as the present argument.

Just shows he is a hypocrite.

[Colburn_Claret]

Two years of trying to simplify this so you get the Brexit you want doesn't change that fact the reality is a lot more complicated does it?

We were never likely to get the Brexit we wanted, but it wasn't helped by the bitching and whining of the losers.
If negotiations had been led by someone who believed in Brexit, backed by a team that supported Brexit, and with the backing of the people for the democratic referendum result we would be in a far stronger position today.
Instead we had all the nastiness and misinformation the remainers could muster. Brussels, with its love of a second vote if the first didn't go it's way, is never going to concede us anything whilst it believes remainers can force a second referendum on the back of a bad deal. You've undermined any chance of meaningful negotiations. Self fulfilling prophets of doom, and then you congratulate yourselves for being right.........your heads are in a very dark, smelly place if you can't see that you are the cause of the present stalemate.
Going forward the Brexit deal would only ever see us over the next 3 to 4 years, short term problems, in the long run the future depends on the deals we make with the rest of the world, and our future long term relationship with the EU.

[Imploding Turtle]

We were never likely to get the Brexit we wanted, but it wasn't helped by the bitching and whining of the losers.
If negotiations had been led by someone who believed in Brexit, backed by a team that supported Brexit, and with the backing of the people for the democratic referendum result we would be in a far stronger position today.
Instead we had all the nastiness and misinformation the remainers could muster. Brussels, with its love of a second vote if the first didn't go it's way, is never going to concede us anything whilst it believes remainers can force a second referendum on the back of a bad deal. You've undermined any chance of meaningful negotiations. Self fulfilling prophets of doom, and then you congratulate yourselves for being right.........your heads are in a very dark, smelly place if you can't see that you are the cause of the present stalemate.
Going forward the Brexit deal would only ever see us over the next 3 to 4 years, short term problems, in the long run the future depends on the deals we make with the rest of the world, and our future long term relationship with the EU.

Yes, it's all the fault of Remainers.

And if you think that the negotiations should have been led by someone who believed in Brexit then perhaps that might have happened had the leaders of the Leave campaigns not done a runner immediately after the vote. They all quit like ******* cowards. But maybe that was Remain's fault too, eh?