Peoples Vote

[CrosspoolClarets]

Ok - stick my hand up time, even if it means I appear shallow and dumb to some - I don’t care.

I voted Leave on the basis of lies by the Leave campaign. I approached my decision as scientifically as I could by weighing up the pros and cons at the time from the information provided at the time and also what I could find. To say that right up until actually being faced with the vote in the booth that I could have voted either way would be accurate - I was as near as dammit 50/50. I have since discovered that the £350M bus was a lie and control of immigration was also a massive lie based upon social media manipulation that really turned rational people into Britain First stereotypes. At the time I could see social housing issues allegedly being affected by immigration, and other social issues being whipped up into a frenzy by the Leave campaign, all very emotional and misleading.

I made a mistake, I would definitely vote remain in the next vote should it come.

I was interested in this so had a look at social housing and migration.

Migrants tend to rent 80% of the time (logical) and 20% of them use social rents rather than private rents. Evidence is thin, but it seems that private rental prices are pushed up by migration (obvious when you factor in that most of them have to rent) and while the evidence is that they are not prioritised for social housing, it will have an impact on the availability of social housing for U.K. citizens.

The U.K. seeking to reduce low skilled migration a lot (the latest government position) would imply that these are disproportionately in social housing and thus the benefit to the U.K. citizen would be huge - I can envisage over 500,000 council houses being freed up.

So, and it is logical because supply wouldn’t change and demand would plummet, anybody caring deeply about social housing in the U.K. would surely have to vote Leave? Switching to Remain on that basis simply doesn’t make much sense.

[CrosspoolClarets]

As for the People’s Vote, the best I have read on this came from Jenni Russell in The Times, staunch Remainer.

She has been pushing for a 2nd Ref since time began, but wrote last week that she thought there would have been a huge swing to Remain. Because the win would now only be marginal, she thinks it would rip the country apart with hate and cannot happen. I agree. From families to friends to workplaces - there may have been falling out after the original vote, but after a second one, that would turn to hate. The hate would last a generation. A feeling of being completely stitched up (no, the silly Remain arguments about a Leave cheating are NOT the same). It would rip our country apart, and is the stupidest thing I have heard in my lifetime (and there is plenty of competition).

[Jakubclaret]

To be fair, that does sound a lot better than the reality of stockpiling food and medicines and having a minister for food distribution.

That's not reality that's false fear

[ClaretMoffitt]

Honestly I can't believe people still think we can just drop everything and remain in the EU like nothing ever happened. Delusional beyond belief.

[Lancasterclaret]

Honestly, I can't believe that people still think we can just go ahead with this and then after it happens, it will be like nothing ever happened. Delusional beyond belief.

You and your boys going to get your flags out and sing some songs to defeat us remainers eh CM?

[Sproggy]

Who has the job of Minister for Food Distribution?

[RingoMcCartney]

Lancaster Claret has definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely,
accepted the referendum result.

Definitely.


And he'll be all over this thread to prove it..



Again.





Definitely.

[Lancasterclaret]

You appear to have missed out on the stockpiling of food and medicine?

I can't think why!

[dsr]

At some point all you're doing is demonstrating how the EU have bent over backwards to accommodate us.

That post [relating to the Euro and the UK having an exemption from joining] is a pretty fair summary of why ardent Remainers and ardent Brexiters cannnot understand each other. To a Brexiter, the idea that the UK can keep the pound is something for the UK to decide absolutely; to remainers, it's something for the EU to decide and they have graciously decided to let us carry on.

[Hipper]

Does anyone know if we can change our mind regarding staying in the EU?

We have told the EU we are leaving and the leave process started nearly two years ago and whilst this procedure is untested there are very definite rules. What has been discussed between the British government and the EU is not a question of whether we leave, but on what terms. The debate in Parliament will be on these terms. If we don't agree terms we still leave.

The talks can be extended beyond two years if both parties agree. If we want to rejoin we have to start another set of negotiations.

The Scottish proposal for a second referendum is clearly agenda driven and geared for the Scots, although I'm surprised the SNP don't want us to leave because it will give them a stronger hand to leave the UK.

[Sproggy]

>You appear to have missed out on the stockpiling of food and medicine?
Suppliers are bringing in extra ingredients to cover any delays resulting from ports sorting themselves out after a no deal exit. In most cases it's enough to cover a few days manufacturing. And it's temporary.
Much as you'd like us to go to full WW2 style rationing to prove your point, it isn't going to happen.
And who is the Minister for Food Distribution?

[TonbridgeClaret]

Haven’t made my mind up yet but this makes interesting reading.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-ma ... 4155168757" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[houseboy]

We did in 1975

The vote in '75 WASN'T for what we have now. It was a trading agreement between a handful of nations, nothing more, now it is a bullying, law enforcing, unaccountable monster and if anyone doubts that look at how they are behaving because we want to leave. If they were a cult religion the police would be investigating them for the way they treat those who would want to leave.

I voted no in '75 as well by the way. .

[Imploding Turtle]

That post [relating to the Euro and the UK having an exemption from joining] is a pretty fair summary of why ardent Remainers and ardent Brexiters cannnot understand each other. To a Brexiter, the idea that the UK can keep the pound is something for the UK to decide absolutely; to remainers, it's something for the EU to decide and they have graciously decided to let us carry on.

Why not both? We would have vetoed any mandate that we adopt the Euro. So we did have the absolute decision. And at the same time the EU worked around our objections.

[AndrewJB]

As for the People’s Vote, the best I have read on this came from Jenni Russell in The Times, staunch Remainer.

She has been pushing for a 2nd Ref since time began, but wrote last week that she thought there would have been a huge swing to Remain. Because the win would now only be marginal, she thinks it would rip the country apart with hate and cannot happen. I agree. From families to friends to workplaces - there may have been falling out after the original vote, but after a second one, that would turn to hate. The hate would last a generation. A feeling of being completely stitched up (no, the silly Remain arguments about a Leave cheating are NOT the same). It would rip our country apart, and is the stupidest thing I have heard in my lifetime (and there is plenty of competition).

That horse bolted a long time ago. The country became divided as soon as the referendum was announced. It was a referendum few people wanted, and in my opinion we would have been better off not having. The country would have gone on, and perhaps a few people would have continued to feel oppressed by the "EU dictatorship" enforcing "banana shape" but by and large life would be better than it is now, because the country has more pressing things to consider than re-working our relationship with our closest neighbours because a lot of newspapers have spent the last forty years convincing people that a collective group of democracies somehow makes a dictatorship.

Our country has already been ripped apart - look at the pages of argument (and debate) on this board. There is no way of getting the smoke back in the bottle. Even within the leave camp there are widely differing views on what "leave" actually means. Some leavers will feel outraged at us leaving the EU but staying within some elements of it, and probably a great many more will not accept the upheaval of leaving without a deal (and then what kind of a deal to satisfy most people?). I don't know of any remain voters who would accept us leaving with no deal on the back of a simple in/out referendum question, when the leave camp campaigned holding out the possibility of a "Norway Option" among many others.

So on this basis another referendum (or perhaps a series of referenda that narrow down the options to two) could bring some order to the current chaos.

One thing to remember is this whole crisis comes out of Cameron and Osborne's decision to offer a referendum to the country in order to shore up support against the inroads made by UKIP.

[quoonbeatz]

That post [relating to the Euro and the UK having an exemption from joining] is a pretty fair summary of why ardent Remainers and ardent Brexiters cannnot understand each other. To a Brexiter, the idea that the UK can keep the pound is something for the UK to decide absolutely; to remainers, it's something for the EU to decide and they have graciously decided to let us carry on.

nope.

to remainers the idea that we can keep the pound is something for the UK to decide absolutely but its also a sign of what a good deal we already have. all of the benefits of being in the club and still able to make our own decisions.

[Imploding Turtle]

As for the People’s Vote, the best I have read on this came from Jenni Russell in The Times, staunch Remainer.

She has been pushing for a 2nd Ref since time began, but wrote last week that she thought there would have been a huge swing to Remain. Because the win would now only be marginal, she thinks it would rip the country apart with hate and cannot happen. I agree. From families to friends to workplaces - there may have been falling out after the original vote, but after a second one, that would turn to hate. The hate would last a generation. A feeling of being completely stitched up (no, the silly Remain arguments about a Leave cheating are NOT the same). It would rip our country apart, and is the stupidest thing I have heard in my lifetime (and there is plenty of competition).

So we shouldn't have a second referendum because if Remain won it would only be a marginal victory for Remain, unlike the 2016 referendum result.

[CrosspoolClarets]

One thing to remember is this whole crisis comes out of Cameron and Osborne's decision to offer a referendum to the country in order to shore up support against the inroads made by UKIP.

Firstly, this isn’t a crisis. It’s a torturous negotiation that as yet hasn’t affected many of us significantly.

Secondly, it didn’t come from UKIP, that’s confusing cause and effect. The original cause is that probably 75% of the population have been Eurosceptic for decades, increasingly so over the years, and eventually enough people decided that the option to “reform from within” was not working and greater than 50% chose to leave. Would we prefer a majority held that view for a long time (as opposed to a brief view during a heated moment) yet were denied a referendum? That’s not democratic. Because these are long standing views they won’t change even if it is engineered for Remain to creep back over 50% in a 2nd vote. We will remain Eurosceptic as a nation.

The podcast Political Thinking this week is Nick Robinson interviewing David Davis. A great listen. He explains how he left his communist past behind to become Eurosceptic while at Tate and Lyle, then crossed the rubicon as I describe in the paragraph above during the Greek crisis (appalled at how undemocratically the Greeks, who were innocent unlike their crooked government, were treated, and still are being, hardly Europe standing together in solidarity). That mirrors my own status, and having many chats about it with locals whilst in Athens last month has done nothing but firm it up in my mind.

Thirdly, people completely underestimate the strength of feeling on the Leave side if they believe that feelings would be simply as bad as now if we voted again to Remain. I know dozens of Remain voters (I live in one of the most Remain areas in Britain) and the Leave voters I know are getting so wound up they would literally crawl over broken glass to get their vote acted upon properly. That’s 17m people if projected up. There’s a huge difference in the level of angst. I’m not exaggerating to say communities would be ripped apart by hate for many, many years.

[IanMcL]

Not sure the population is clever enough!

The politicians certainly are not.


Let's just forget about leaving and wasting all this money getting out and stay on.

[Dazzler]

Time people put their country before their own ill informed polarised views

Such as these selfish remoaners..
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/u ... spartanntp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Somethingfishy]

Time people put their country before their own ill informed polarised views

You mean that we all have to agree with your point of view and that if we don't we are ill-informed? That one? Sound a typical remoaner to me.

[AndrewJB]

Firstly, this isn’t a crisis. It’s a torturous negotiation that as yet hasn’t affected many of us significantly.

Secondly, it didn’t come from UKIP, that’s confusing cause and effect. The original cause is that probably 75% of the population have been Eurosceptic for decades, increasingly so over the years, and eventually enough people decided that the option to “reform from within” was not working and greater than 50% chose to leave. Would we prefer a majority held that view for a long time (as opposed to a brief view during a heated moment) yet were denied a referendum? That’s not democratic. Because these are long standing views they won’t change even if it is engineered for Remain to creep back over 50% in a 2nd vote. We will remain Eurosceptic as a nation.

The podcast Political Thinking this week is Nick Robinson interviewing David Davis. A great listen. He explains how he left his communist past behind to become Eurosceptic while at Tate and Lyle, then crossed the rubicon as I describe in the paragraph above during the Greek crisis (appalled at how undemocratically the Greeks, who were innocent unlike their crooked government, were treated, and still are being, hardly Europe standing together in solidarity). That mirrors my own status, and having many chats about it with locals whilst in Athens last month has done nothing but firm it up in my mind.

Thirdly, people completely underestimate the strength of feeling on the Leave side if they believe that feelings would be simply as bad as now if we voted again to Remain. I know dozens of Remain voters (I live in one of the most Remain areas in Britain) and the Leave voters I know are getting so wound up they would literally crawl over broken glass to get their vote acted upon properly. That’s 17m people if projected up. There’s a huge difference in the level of angst. I’m not exaggerating to say communities would be ripped apart by hate for many, many years.

There is as much strength of feeling on the remain side, and therein lies the crisis.

But your post does a lot of myth-making. How did 75% of the population (if indeed that much) become Eurosceptic? Could it have been the decades of anti-EU propaganda belted out daily by the press? And successive governments who championed the individual over the collective? If Europe was as bad as the press claimed, then why have other countries not had the same levels of Euroscepticism? Is it merely a coincidence that Britain had the most Eurospectic press, and the most Eurosceptic population at the same time?

And you write as though this Euroscepticism built up until there was a groundswell of support, and demand for a referendum - and that's simply not true. The link I posted earlier shows that before the 2015 election Europe as an issue was well down the list of what was important to voters. There were no vast marches of people demanding a referendum. I can't even recall any huge petitions. The referendum was handed down from on high by Cameron as a sop to his eurosceptic wing.

Where we are is a crisis, because it's taking up vast resources of time and money to take us somewhere we'll be worse off than we are now, while leaving at least a significant minority of probably both remain and leave voters unhappy with the destination.

[joey13]

The vote in '75 WASN'T for what we have now. It was a trading agreement between a handful of nations, nothing more, now it is a bullying, law enforcing, unaccountable monster and if anyone doubts that look at how they are behaving because we want to leave. If they were a cult religion the police would be investigating them for the way they treat those who would want to leave.

I voted no in '75 as well by the way. .

You are sort of missing the point

[dsr]

And you write as though this Euroscepticism built up until there was a groundswell of support, and demand for a referendum - and that's simply not true. The link I posted earlier shows that before the 2015 election Europe as an issue was well down the list of what was important to voters. There were no vast marches of people demanding a referendum. I can't even recall any huge petitions. The referendum was handed down from on high by Cameron as a sop to his eurosceptic wing.

Strength of feeling was high enough that 1 in 8 of the voters voted for UKIP, based on (in spite of their manifesto) a single issue vote against the EU being more important to them than all the other issues put together; even knowing in advance that their vote would win nothing. That's a big groundswell. How many other issues commanded such support, to outweigh every other issue?

And that was in spite of the Conservatives having promised a referendum.

[houseboy]

You are sort of missing the point

No I ain't. The point is the EU is NOT what we joined and my reply was about the 'people's vote' of '75. Back then we voted to join and despite the fact that I was on the 'losing side' we didn't make fools of ourselves by crying to anyone who would listen, we ACCEPTED the result as a democratic decision. The time was right to re-evaluate that '75 vote because of all the changes and how big the EU had become, not to mention how controlling.
If the EU was not the controlling, power crazed monster that it is surely they would let us leave with equanimity and goodwill, but no, they are still trying tooth and nail to make it as difficult as possible. I just cannot understand why the remainers cannot see this.

[Lancasterclaret]

What was the voting % for "in" in 75?

[joey13]

No I ain't. The point is the EU is NOT what we joined and my reply was about the 'people's vote' of '75. Back then we voted to join and despite the fact that I was on the 'losing side' we didn't make fools of ourselves by crying to anyone who would listen, we ACCEPTED the result as a democratic decision. The time was right to re-evaluate that '75 vote because of all the changes and how big the EU had become, not to mention how controlling.
If the EU was not the controlling, power crazed monster that it is surely they would let us leave with equanimity and goodwill, but no, they are still trying tooth and nail to make it as difficult as possible. I just cannot understand why the remainers cannot see this.

So a vote in 2019 would be for the same as the vote in 2016 ? The answer is no for starters the demographics are different

[joey13]

What was the voting % for "in" in 75?

67% to stay in

[Lancasterclaret]

Pretty high that.

Certainly a big majority. Kinda understandable why people accepted it without an issue i'm guessing.

[dsr]

Pretty high that.

Certainly a big majority. Kinda understandable why people accepted it without an issue i'm guessing.

All EU votes that went the way the EU wanted have been accepted without an issue, even the French one at 51.0% for the Maastricht treaty. It's only the ones that went against that have been re-run.

[dsr]

One big question about a re-run would be how Scotland would vote. They were strongly in favour of the EU before, but now they know that it would most likely mean a hard border with England and some very different trading conditions if they go independent, that might change.

[burnleymik]

Pretty high that.

Certainly a big majority. Kinda understandable why people accepted it without an issue i'm guessing.

ahhh. So it's only democracy if the result isn't close? And by close we must mean more than the extra 1.2 MILLION people who voted to leave rather than remain...

[Lancasterclaret]

Not at all

There is no doubt that leave won the first referendum.

And you know why its not been plain sailing since then, because they has been two years of stuff about it.

You can pretend that "leave means leave" till you are blue in the face but clearly that is not the case, and its only one of the (many) reasons we are where we are.

[AndrewJB]

Strength of feeling was high enough that 1 in 8 of the voters voted for UKIP, based on (in spite of their manifesto) a single issue vote against the EU being more important to them than all the other issues put together; even knowing in advance that their vote would win nothing. That's a big groundswell. How many other issues commanded such support, to outweigh every other issue?

And that was in spite of the Conservatives having promised a referendum.

The economy and the NHS were the two top concerns for voters in 2015, followed by immigration. A lot of voters moved away from all three traditional parties, as none had likable leaders or eyecatching policies. The Greens also picked up a lot of new voters, and many English people expressed regret that they couldn't vote for the SNP. It's not surprising then that UKIP became the home for a lot of disenchanted voters, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they were all wanting Britain to leave the EU. In fact Europe as in issue was well down the list as an issue.

[taio]

The economy and the NHS were the two top concerns for voters in 2015, followed by immigration. A lot of voters moved away from all three traditional parties, as none had likable leaders or eyecatching policies. The Greens also picked up a lot of new voters, and many English people expressed regret that they couldn't vote for the SNP. It's not surprising then that UKIP became the home for a lot of disenchanted voters, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they were all wanting Britain to leave the EU. In fact Europe as in issue was well down the list as an issue.

It's predicted that 95% of UKIP voters voted Leave. So not all but a huge majority. Not surprising though.

[RingoMcCartney]

The economy and the NHS were the two top concerns for voters in 2015, followed by immigration. A lot of voters moved away from all three traditional parties, as none had likable leaders or eyecatching policies. The Greens also picked up a lot of new voters, and many English people expressed regret that they couldn't vote for the SNP. It's not surprising then that UKIP became the home for a lot of disenchanted voters, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they were all wanting Britain to leave the EU. In fact Europe as in issue was well down the list as an issue.

Why are you trying to play the EU and our membership of it down?

The leave vote was the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed.

If it were as insignificant as you're making out, why did millions get off their arse, many for the first time ever, and voice their opinion through the ballot box?

[joey13]

The leave vote was the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed

No it wasn’t

[RingoMcCartney]

ahhh. So it's only democracy if the result isn't close? And by close we must mean more than the extra 1.2 MILLION people who voted to leave rather than remain...

The Welsh devolution referendum of 1997 saw a 50.3 % to 49.7 % result.

The losing side accepted it with grace and dignity.

There are many on the losing side of the 2016 referendum that could do well to , finally, take a leaf out of their book.

[RingoMcCartney]

The leave vote was the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed

No it wasn’t

What was bigger?

[Devils_Advocate]

The leave vote was the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed.

Show some bloody ambition had Roy still been alive he'd have had us all coming back to set a new record with a second vote without all this fannying around and whinging

[burnleymik]

Not at all

There is no doubt that leave won the first referendum.

And you know why its not been plain sailing since then, because they has been two years of stuff about it.

You can pretend that "leave means leave" till you are blue in the face but clearly that is not the case, and its only one of the (many) reasons we are where we are.

That wasn't your point. You basically stated that because the result was close was a good enough reason to not have to accept the result.

Also the reason we are where we are is nothing to do with what I or any Brexit voter "pretends". We are where we are because of this government being so weak in negotiations with the EU. Two wasted years.

[Imploding Turtle]

The Welsh devolution referendum of 1997 saw a 50.3 % to 49.7 % result.

The losing side accepted it with grace and dignity.

There are many on the losing side of the 2016 referendum that could do well to , finally, take a leaf out of their book.

That was the second referendum. The first one was in 1979 and 'No' won handily (80-20)). So as it turns out the example you use was actually the result of people not just accepting one referendum result to be final. Oops.

[summitclaret]

20 years between those 2 refs, not 2.

[IanMcL]

One big question about a re-run would be how Scotland would vote. They were strongly in favour of the EU before, but now they know that it would most likely mean a hard border with England and some very different trading conditions if they go independent, that might change.

There would be no hard border with Ireland or Scotland. It is not in England's interest to cocoon itself from Europe.

The Scottish pound will also want to be retained by England, too!

[Lancasterclaret]

I've stopped making points on here with people who say the only reason this has gone on for two years is because the government is weak in its negotiations.

There genuinely is nothing I can say to people who ignore every real reason for the problems, while inventing mythical ones as the reason we are going nowhere.

For the nth time, the government is trying to negotiate the Brexit you were promised by the people who promised absolutely ******* everything. They should have just said free blow jobs for all, it would have been just as realistic.

There are always going to be losers in a referendum. they don't lose their rights to protest, vote and do whatever they want. they didn't in 1975 and people still kept the flame of leaving alive, and they won't in 2018. To expect them to is as undemocratic as it gets.

[joey13]

What was bigger?

Thought you’d know , you seem to know everything else

[RingoMcCartney]

That was the second referendum. The first one was in 1979 and 'No' won handily (80-20)). So as it turns out the example you use was actually the result of people not just accepting one referendum result to be final. Oops.

The example was of a narrow result standing.

Plus if it over turned the previous one after 20 years, then it's even more pertinent when comparing it to the EU referendum. Because the British People had to wait more than twice as long before they got a second vote. So thanks for pointing it out.

[RingoMcCartney]

Thought you’d know , you seem to know everything else

I know that the result of the 2016 referendum result was the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed.

You said it wasn't.

Not me.......

[RingoMcCartney]

There are always going to be losers in a referendum. they don't lose their rights to protest, vote and do whatever they want. they didn't in 1975 and people still kept the flame of leaving alive, and they won't in 2018. To expect them to is as undemocratic as it gets.

The winners in 1975 saw their choice ENACTED. Not thwarted.

So the 2016 winners get the right to have their winning choice ENACTED. To try and thwart what over 17,400,000 people voted for BEFORE it has been enacted is as undemocratic as it gets.

[Imploding Turtle]

The winners in 1975 saw their choice ENACTED. Not thwarted.

So the 2016 winners get the right to have their winning choice ENACTED. To try and thwart what over 17,400,000 people voted for BEFORE it has been enacted is as undemocratic as it gets.

More undemocratic is enacting something the public doesn't want. And what's worse is that you know this which is why you're opposed to a referendum making sure the UK still wants to leave on the terms available.