Ivan Toney

[Rileybobs]

I can't remember if we'd brought in a 4th striker when we punted him out, or did we manage with 3?

Seems like his loan out to QPR coincided with us bringing Vydra in.

[KRBFC]

We didn’t buy Gibson with the intention of sending him out on loan so it’s a totally irrelevant comparison. I’ve talked about Wells in my post above.

It’s fine picking out Toney, but how many of these punts will pay off? And he cost Brentford £5-£10m so not even in the ballpark that you’ve suggested we take a punt on.

And what conveniently keeps being forgotten is that these players need to be paid, for the duration of their contracts. What size of squad do you suggest that we can afford to carry?

You said we can't afford £5M players out on loan for a year but we've currently got a £15M defender out on loan, the reason he was bought is kind of irrelevant, it's the same outcome.

I'm talking about a couple of players out on loan, with the loan club paying the majority of the wage. I'm not saying we spend £30M on players and loan them all out, a couple of smart small punts. I'd have took Whiteman from Doncaster who went to Preston for £1M, was the Doncaster captain, young and came through at Man United. 1-2 years down the line, will he be good enough for the PL? who knows but you would certainly fancy yourself to get your money back. How much was Whiteman likely on at Doncaster in League One? £5k p/w?

[boatshed bill]

Seems like his loan out to QPR coincided with us bringing Vydra in.

Fair enough. But did we use Vydra?
I know you will say he was available, but it has at times seemed that our manager is unprepared to use a 4th in striker.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You said we can't afford £5M players out on loan for a year but we've currently got a £15M defender out on loan, the reason he was bought is kind of irrelevant, it's the same outcome.

I'm talking about a couple of players out on loan, with the loan club paying the majority of the wage. I'm not saying we spend £30M on players and loan them all out, a couple of smart small punts. I'd have took Whiteman from Doncaster who went to Preston for £1M, was the Doncaster captain, young and came through at Man United. 1-2 years down the line, will he be good enough for the PL? who knows but you would certainly fancy yourself to get your money back. How much was Whiteman likely on at Doncaster in League One? £5k p/w?

This has merits to be fair and even if we only end up selling them for profit to a championship club, we've still made something.
There will be clubs in the championship more interested in loans than transfers and we could take advantage of that.
If they're proving themselves to be better than championship standard then there are clubs in the PL to loan too, like Fulham have done this season.

[Rileybobs]

You said we can't afford £5M players out on loan for a year but we've currently got a £15M defender out on loan, the reason he was bought is kind of irrelevant, it's the same outcome.

I'm talking about a couple of players out on loan, with the loan club paying the majority of the wage. I'm not saying we spend £30M on players and loan them all out, a couple of smart small punts. I'd have took Whiteman from Doncaster who went to Preston for £1M, was the Doncaster captain, young and came through at Man United. 1-2 years down the line, will he be good enough for the PL? who knows but you would certainly fancy yourself to get your money back. How much was Whiteman likely on at Doncaster in League One? £5k p/w?

We don’t seem to have enough money to carry a particularly competitive 25 man squad. So how are we going to afford to carry excess players on top of that?

I’ve got nothing against the principle of the idea, I just don’t think it’s a financially viable one for us.

[Rileybobs]

Fair enough. But did we use Vydra?
I know you will say he was available, but it has at times seemed that our manager is unprepared to use a 4th in striker.

Yeah, like you say he was available. We need a fourth choice striker in the same way that we need a third choice keeper. You only want your fourth choice striker to play if the other three are unavailable.

You’re suggesting we add a fifth striker who is completely unavailable for selection. That player will diminish funds from an already substandard pot in which to carry a competitive first team. I can guarantee KRBFC and others would soon change their tune if the first team squad got weaker and we had 3/4 league 1 signings out on loan.

We’re in a very precarious position, teetering above the drop zone most seasons and don’t really have the security or financial luxury to be able to do what’s being suggested.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

We don’t seem to have enough money to carry a particularly competitive 25 man squad. So how are we going to afford to carry excess players on top of that?

I’ve got nothing against the principle of the idea, I just don’t think it’s a financially viable one for us.

This goes back to growing revenue streams....

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yeah, like you say he was available. We need a fourth choice striker in the same way that we need a third choice keeper. You only want your fourth choice striker to play if the other three are unavailable.

You’re suggesting we add a fifth striker who is completely unavailable for selection. That player will diminish funds from an already substandard pot in which to carry a competitive first team. I can guarantee KRBFC and others would soon change their tune if the first team squad got weaker and we had 3/4 league 1 signings out on loan.

We’re in a very precarious position, teetering above the drop zone most seasons and don’t really have the security or financial luxury to be able to do what’s being suggested.

We have players out on loan all the time, from our U23 team mainly.

All KRBFC is suggesting is we up the quality etc.
Brentford buy from lower leagues and sell to higher.

How about we skip the middle man, Brentford, and buy from lower, loan to championship and then promote to our squad if they've done well enough to deserve it or sell to championship team if that's where we think they'll end up.
For the right fees it can be relatively low risk.

We invest in the academy with the aim of producing first team players for us or players we can sell on for a profit which helps cover academy running costs.
The same principle can be applied to the above model.

I'm aware there are loan restrictions in place, or coming in, but we could still manage to get a couple of long term prospects in place.

[KRBFC]

We don’t seem to have enough money to carry a particularly competitive 25 man squad. So how are we going to afford to carry excess players on top of that?

I’ve got nothing against the principle of the idea, I just don’t think it’s a financially viable one for us.

I don't think we need a 25 man squad, we play one competition per season really. I think right now we're only 2 bodies short probably and we don't have 23 atm. We had £1M in the summer to spunk on Stephens on a no doubt big wage. Why wasn't that £1M available to spend on Whiteman instead? I know who most fans would rather take a risk on and it's certainly not over the hill Stephens on a ridiculous wage. I don't think any fan wants to see us spend huge sums on players from League One and hope they work out instantly, I'm not against trying to uncover the next Toney/Watkins/Vardy though by signing then loaning to the Championship.

[KRBFC]

We have players out on loan all the time, from our U23 team mainly.

All KRBFC is suggesting is we up the quality etc.
Brentford buy from lower leagues and sell to higher.

How about we skip the middle man, Brentford, and buy from lower, loan to championship and then promote to our squad if they've done well enough to deserve it or sell to championship team if that's where we think they'll end up.
For the right fees it can be relatively low risk.

We invest in the academy with the aim of producing first team players for us or players we can sell on for a profit which helps cover academy running costs.
The same principle can be applied to the above model.

I'm aware there are loan restrictions in place, or coming in, but we could still manage to get a couple of long term prospects in place.

Precisely, we cut the middle man. Instead of buying £30M Watkins from Brentford we buy £1M Watkins from Exeter and loan him to Brentford. A bit of a wild example because it won't always turn out like that but I'm sure that deal was possible.

[kentonclaret]

Brentford are not just signing players from the lower divisions and selling them on but playing them in the first team and developing them further as players. Watkins when signed from Exeter was mainly a winger but Brentford converted him into a central striker where he finished his Championship season as leading scorer. Not sure you would achieve the same results by signing players with potential and then simply loaning them out. Players need help and coaching to aid their development as well as game time.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Brentford are not just signing players from the lower divisions and selling them on but playing them in the first team and developing them further as players. Watkins when signed from Exeter was mainly a winger but Brentford converted him into a central striker where he finished his Championship season as leading scorer. Not sure you would achieve the same results by signing players with potential and then simply loaning them out. Players need help and coaching to aid their development as well as game time.

That's where we need to pick the clubs carefully etc.

Plus if we've got people monitoring our players out on loan, they can look into that sort of thing, so if we as the parent club decide to move them into a different position we can do so, over the course of a summer, or we do 6mth loans etc.

It would all need to be looked at and worked out but it's got potential.

[KRBFC]

Brentford are not just signing players from the lower divisions and selling them on but playing them in the first team and developing them further as players. Watkins when signed from Exeter was mainly a winger but Brentford converted him into a central striker where he finished his Championship season as leading scorer. Not sure you would achieve the same results by signing players with potential and then simply loaning them out. Players need help and coaching to aid their development as well as game time.

We cannot afford to risk starting these players instantly, which is where the instant Championship loan comes into play.

[boatshed bill]

We cannot afford to risk starting these players instantly, which is where the instant Championship loan comes into play.
[/quote
]But we could play them in the U23s.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Isn't competitive enough though let's be fair.

Especially if we are buying lads already used to first team football.

[boatshed bill]

Isn't competitive enough though let's be fair.

Especially if we are buying lads already used to first team football.

but it would keep them with our coaching staff, and they'd be training with PL players, surely that's not a bad start?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

but it would keep them with our coaching staff, and they'd be training with PL players, surely that's not a bad start?

We can do 6mth loans, so they can get the best of both worlds.

[boatshed bill]

We can do 6mth loans, so they can get the best of both worlds.

TBH I have little faith in the loan system, perhaps if we could get players in to Championship sides it would be better.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

TBH I have little faith in the loan system, perhaps if we could get players in to Championship sides it would be better.

We haven't had a good enough quality of player to do so tbh.