Sir Gareth Southgate

[RicardoMontalban]

The criticism is that a professional footballer with the goal at his absolute mercy as somehow inexplicably failed to score, if you think it’s unfair that people are criticising that technique, again I don’t know what to say, I’ve seen better penalties dispatched in the Saturday Pendle charity league.

If it were that easy then there’d never be a missed penalty in a shoot out. Pressure does funny things and, Donnarumma is an enormous keeper so Rashford knows he has to put it as far in the corner as possible. Inches from being a great penalty. I’m not familiar with the Saturday Pendle Charity League. Does the pressure of the situation compare with a European Championship Final shootout?

[claretonthecoast1882]

Jakub does like to stick the boot into Rashford at any opportunity

[Rileybobs]

I do wonder if there might be something of a player revolt after last night.

He basically threw Rashford, Sancho and Saka under a bus with the penalty debacle. Yes, they probably should do better but chucking them on with one minute to go and expecting them to win it for him is a bit naughty, especially after the bit part tournament they’ve both had. Almost like he was admitting they weren’t good enough to win it for him in normal time (when they most certainly are) and expecting them to pull us out of the **** at the death.

Grealish and Trippier certainly didn’t seem impressed at the end, although that might just have been down to pure deflation.

He threw on what he considered to be two of his best penalty takers in Rashford and Sancho. Saka had been on the pitch for quite some time, longer than Grealish.

Obviously it didn’t work and in hindsight Southgate may consider the decision to have been incorrect. But he obviously thought that having our best penalty takers taking the crucial pens on fresh legs would be better than our poorer penalty takers taking them on heavy legs. This decision would have been made prior to the game and he will rightly attract criticism for this call. But it equally could have worked and we don’t know whether the more senior players on the pitch would have scored in any case.

[Spijed]

Taken this from elsewhere, so not my research.

But apparently these are the teams England under Southgate have beaten in competitive matches - not very inspiring is it?

Malta
Scotland
Lithuania
Slovakia
Tunisia
Panama
Sweden
Croatia
Czech Republic
Bulgaria
Montenegro
Kosovo
Iceland
Wales
Belgium
San Marino
Albania
Poland
Germany
Ukraine
Denmark

[Jakubclaret]

If it were that easy then there’d never be a missed penalty in a shoot out. Pressure does funny things and, Donnarumma is an enormous keeper so Rashford knows he has to put it as far in the corner as possible. Inches from being a great penalty. I’m not familiar with the Saturday Pendle Charity League. Does the pressure of the situation compare with a European Championship Final shootout?

I don’t know but what i do know is I’ve seen amateur footballers take far better penalties who earn no money from football that’s as much as I do know never mind millions, If you can’t hack it don’t back it.

[Socrates]

But that attitude is the reason why England have won bugger all for 55 years. Italy failed to qualify for the last World Cup, but did something about it.

We'll just feel sorry for ourselves, like we always do.

With respect ….. that’s utter ********.

What we’re seeing now, with this crop of players who are all kids in the grand scheme of things, is our reaction to failures that was instituted ages ago.

It’s a long term plan to change our footballing culture and produce sustainable success. We’ve not won this tournament but the target the FA set was semi’s for this tournament, final for 2022. So we’ve exceeded the target set a while back.

This boom and bust, black and white, win or lose mentality ….. I would argue that’s one of the reasons we’re deemed a failure in the eyes of some of our fans.

We had the second youngest team in the tournament and finished second place. It’s very rare for a team to rock up out of nowhere to win a tournament, there are steps to doing that.

We’ve been doing it wrong for years. The signs are we are doing it right now.

[PeterWilton]

The criticism is that a professional footballer with the goal at his absolute mercy as somehow inexplicably failed to score, if you think it’s unfair that people are criticising that technique, again I don’t know what to say, I’ve seen better penalties dispatched in the Saturday Pendle charity league.

You need to learn how to read. The criticism was that he was trying to "act cool" in his run up. And that's the criticism that i criticised. This isn't difficult. You must be trolling.

[Socrates]

I don’t know but what i do know is I’ve seen amateur footballers take far better penalties who earn no money from football that’s as much as I do know never mind millions, If you can’t hack it don’t back it.

Did those amateur footballers have 75,000 people watching them and feel the weight of a nation when they stepped up?

You’re an idiot.

[Jakubclaret]

Did those amateur footballers have 75,000 people watching them and feel the weight of a nation when they stepped up?

You’re an idiot.

If you can’t hack it don’t back it, simples!

[Socrates]

If you can’t hack it don’t back it, simples!

I refer you back to my idiot point.

[Jakubclaret]

I refer you back to my idiot point.

Classy retort

[Devils_Advocate]

Taken this from elsewhere, so not my research.

But apparently these are the teams England under Southgate have beaten in competitive matches - not very inspiring is it?

Malta
Scotland
Lithuania
Slovakia
Tunisia
Panama
Sweden
Croatia
Czech Republic
Bulgaria
Montenegro
Kosovo
Iceland
Wales
Belgium
San Marino
Albania
Poland
Germany
Ukraine
Denmark

Do the same for Bobby Robson and see how inspiring that is

[RicardoMontalban]

I don’t know but what i do know is I’ve seen amateur footballers take far better penalties who earn no money from football that’s as much as I do know never mind millions, If you can’t hack it don’t back it.

Again, for the hard of thinking, pressure. A Saturday amateur game in Pendle is not a crucial penalty in a major international tournament final. They cannot be compared.

How much they earn is an equally pointless line of argument.

[Devils_Advocate]

Here you go Spijed

How many did Bobby Robson beat in 8 years in competitive games

Failed to qualify to '84 Euros from a group consisting of Hungary, Greece, Luxemburg and Denmark

In the whole of the '86 campaign we managed to beat Finland, Turkey, N. Ireland, Romania, Poland and Paraguay

In the whole '88 campaign we managed to beat N. Ireland, Yugoslavia, Turkey,

In the whole '90 campaign we managed to beat Albania, Poland, Egypt, Belgium and Cameroon

So in 8 years and 4 competitions the only decent team we managed to beat was Belgium with the last kick of extra time after hanging on for large parts of the game

[Socrates]

Taken this from elsewhere, so not my research.

But apparently these are the teams England under Southgate have beaten in competitive matches - not very inspiring is it?

Malta
Scotland
Lithuania
Slovakia
Tunisia
Panama
Sweden
Croatia
Czech Republic
Bulgaria
Montenegro
Kosovo
Iceland
Wales
Belgium
San Marino
Albania
Poland
Germany
Ukraine
Denmark

We beat Spain in the Nations League under Southgate.

So not only is that list irrelevant. It’s wrong.

[Jakubclaret]

Again, for the hard of thinking, pressure. A Saturday amateur game in Pendle is not a crucial penalty in a major international tournament final. They cannot be compared.

How much they earn is an equally pointless line of argument.

Millions/thousands of NHS staff such as nurses & paramedics ect seems to handle pressure on a day to day basis in even tougher circumstances, are footballers some sort of a unique case in isolation where in terms of money & pressure we aren’t allowed to compare, most jobs have some sort of pressure a bus driver as a time schedule, you just deal with it.

[Socrates]

Millions/thousands of NHS staff such as nurses & paramedics ect seems to handle pressure on a day to day basis in even tougher circumstances, are footballers some sort of a unique case in isolation where in terms of money & pressure we aren’t allowed to compare, most jobs have some sort of pressure a bus driver as a time schedule, you just deal with it.

Ok …..

And do people never die in hospitals? And do buses never crash?

You’re an idiot.

[Socrates]

Taken this from elsewhere, so not my research.

But apparently these are the teams England under Southgate have beaten in competitive matches - not very inspiring is it?

Malta
Scotland
Lithuania
Slovakia
Tunisia
Panama
Sweden
Croatia
Czech Republic
Bulgaria
Montenegro
Kosovo
Iceland
Wales
Belgium
San Marino
Albania
Poland
Germany
Ukraine
Denmark

The other thing to say ….. we didn’t lose the match last night.

[milkcrate_mosh]

Do the same for Bobby Robson and see how inspiring that is

It's also missing victories against Belgium and Spain from the nations league.

[Jakubclaret]

Ok …..

And do people never die in hospitals? And do buses never crash?

You’re an idiot.

Yes, investigations in cases of malpractice are carried out where medical negligence can be proved, if a bus driver crash’s an investigation is carried out. People build a bridge get over it & just deal with it, life still resumes.

[Herts Clarets]

Wrong starting line up
Wrong formation
Wrong penalty takers

Other than that Southgate did well

You can add wrong substitutions to that list. When we needed pace and width, someone to run at the ageing and tiring Italian back line, the obvious candidates were Grealish and Sancho. He brought on Henderson and Saka, 1 a like for like replacement and the other looking like a lost school kid. Neither caused Italy any trouble and the final changes were made far too late to influence the outcome of the game.

[PeterWilton]

Taken this from elsewhere, so not my research.

But apparently these are the teams England under Southgate have beaten in competitive matches - not very inspiring is it?

Malta
Scotland
Lithuania
Slovakia
Tunisia
Panama
Sweden
Croatia
Czech Republic
Bulgaria
Montenegro
Kosovo
Iceland
Wales
Belgium
San Marino
Albania
Poland
Germany
Ukraine
Denmark

I looked those up, it's missing Slovenia and Spain.

That said, it doesn't mean anything. Of the top 10 ranked teams (the ones who beating might cause inspiration) England have only played 4 of them (Belgium, Spain, Italy, Denmark) and they've beaten 3 of those at least once.

[RicardoMontalban]

Millions/thousands of NHS staff such as nurses & paramedics ect seems to handle pressure on a day to day basis in even tougher circumstances, are footballers some sort of a unique case in isolation where in terms of money & pressure we aren’t allowed to compare, most jobs have some sort of pressure a bus driver as a time schedule, you just deal with it.

Jesus wept, I know about the NHS, I have several in my close family that have experienced it first hand this last 18 months. You’re comparing some fat lad on a cabbage patch in Nelson with last night. The two do not compare! So you’ve never been in a situation where the pressure has been so great that you’ve got something, in that fraction of a second, wrong? I’ll include deciding which pot noodle to go for if that helps?

[Lancasterclaret]

Under Southgate

1 x World Cup Semi final

1 x European Championship final

As an England fan, that is the best I've ever seen, and I'm 48

There are some valid criticisms of him, but the man has got us going in a way no one else has managed

And the amount of people who think if we just attacked more, we'd win more?

You should all know enough about football by now to get that its never that simple

[Socrates]

Yes, investigations in cases of malpractice are carried out where medical negligence can be proved, if a bus driver crash’s an investigation is carried out. People build a bridge get over it & just deal with it, life still resumes.

What point are you trying to make? That makes zero sense.

[PeterWilton]

What point are you trying to make? That makes zero sense.

I think he wants Wayne Bridges in the next squad.

[Jakubclaret]

Jesus wept, I know about the NHS, I have several in my close family that have experienced it first hand this last 18 months. You’re comparing some fat lad on a cabbage patch in Nelson with last night. The two do not compare! So you’ve never been in a situation where the pressure has been so great that you’ve got something, in that fraction of a second, wrong? I’ll include deciding which pot noodle to go for if that helps?

Yes but people aren’t paying me millions to decide on my pot noodle selection, yes mistakes happen of course in high pressure situations, aren’t we allowed to discuss them & criticise where appropriate, the fat lad on the cabbage patch is the lad who’s dispatching a penalty in the correct manner whilst not receiving any financial return, let’s not forget that salient point.

[kentonclaret]

Taken this from elsewhere, so not my research.

But apparently these are the teams England under Southgate have beaten in competitive matches - not very inspiring is it?

Malta
Scotland
Lithuania
Slovakia
Tunisia
Panama
Sweden
Croatia
Czech Republic
Bulgaria
Montenegro
Kosovo
Iceland
Wales
Belgium
San Marino
Albania
Poland
Germany
Ukraine
Denmark

Similarly, if you do the same amount of research on the teams that Italy had played prior to the Euro2020 tournament kicking off you would find that they had been competing against the following countries (in most cases more than once) in building up their long unbeaten sequence of results

USA
FINLAND
LIECHTENSTEIN
GREECE
BOSNIA
ARMENIA
N IRELAND
BULGARIA
LITHUANIA
SAN MARINO

Again, not that inspiring is it?

[Socrates]

Yes but people aren’t paying me millions to decide on my pot noodle selection, yes mistakes happen of course in high pressure situations, aren’t we allowed to discuss them & criticise where appropriate, the fat lad on the cabbage patch is the lad who’s dispatching a penalty in the correct manner whilst not receiving any financial return, let’s not forget that salient point.

I don’t think you know what salient means.

[Herts Clarets]

Under Southgate

1 x World Cup Semi final

1 x European Championship final

As an England fan, that is the best I've ever seen, and I'm 48

There are some valid criticisms of him, but the man has got us going in a way no one else has managed

And the amount of people who think if we just attacked more, we'd win more?

You should all know enough about football by now to get that its never that simple

What i have learned in my time watching and coaching football is that you rarely win anything if you do not have a shot on target. England went 118 minutes last night without troubling the Italian keeper. If you set up with 5 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders, chances are going to be at a premium. The goal was scored by a wing back, created by the other wing back. Kane and Mount were virtually anonymous as they were so isolated from the 7 defenders that Southgate insisted on. Sterling offered a little but invariably found himself running down blind alleys with little or no support.

Question - has the man got us going in a way no one else has managed or is it a simple fact he has the better players at his disposal than any predecessors? And i am talking about on pitch performance and not team bonding or sense of togetherness that is often referred to.

[Dark Cloud]

Look. They guy criticised his run up as trying to act "cool", because he doesn't have a clue what he's on about. I pointed out the actual purpose of the run up was to have the keeper reveal which side he was diving.

THAT WORKED. Obviously.

Yes it did work, EVENTUALLY, but their goalie kept his nerve and stayed still for so long that for Rashford it had almost become too late and he was on top of the ball and unable to do what he wanted to do which was slot it gently into the gaping hole on the opposite side. Their goalie deserves a lot of credit there as he caused the miss, even if he didn't actually save it. A good old blast down the middle would have been miles better and that goes for any of them tbh unless you're Kane who takes them regularly in PL games!

[Lancasterclaret]

What i have learned in my time watching and coaching football is that you rarely win anything if you do not have a shot on target. England went 118 minutes last night without troubling the Italian keeper. If you set up with 5 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders, chances are going to be at a premium. The goal was scored by a wing back, created by the other wing back. Kane and Mount were virtually anonymous as they were so isolated from the 7 defenders that Southgate insisted on. Sterling offered a little but invariably found himself running down blind alleys with little or no support.

Question - has the man got us going in a way no one else has managed or is it a simple fact he has the better players at his disposal than any predecessors? And i am talking about on pitch performance and not team bonding or sense of togetherness that is often referred to.

Again, the results speak for themselves

Are the players worse or better than the Golden generation? I think its safe to say that we've no one as good as Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard for starters.

I think the only player we have who is genuine world class is Kane

And I feel this is really important, you've decided that the team bonding and the sense of togetherness is not important, and I do wonder why that is

[Socrates]

What i have learned in my time watching and coaching football is that you rarely win anything if you do not have a shot on target. England went 118 minutes last night without troubling the Italian keeper. If you set up with 5 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders, chances are going to be at a premium. The goal was scored by a wing back, created by the other wing back. Kane and Mount were virtually anonymous as they were so isolated from the 7 defenders that Southgate insisted on. Sterling offered a little but invariably found himself running down blind alleys with little or no support.

Question - has the man got us going in a way no one else has managed or is it a simple fact he has the better players at his disposal than any predecessors? And i am talking about on pitch performance and not team bonding or sense of togetherness that is often referred to.

Why are you focusing on just that one game?

If you look at everything through such a narrow prism your view is flawed.

You say we went 118 minutes without a shot on goal. I say that we had the most shots we’ve ever had in a European Championship final.

You say Mount was anonymous. I say his performance was in the top 5 ever for any England midfielder in a European Championship final.

Sterling ….. that’s probably the best any wide player has ever played in any European Championship final for England.

5 years ago we got beat by Iceland in the round of 16. I’d urge you to go back and look at that team and bench and tell me with a straight face we are not progressing.

[kentonclaret]

Throughout this tournament Gareth Southgate has been quoted as saying "This is our Time" to finally deliver a trophy.

And to a certain extent he was right with so many factors falling in England's favour. 6 out of 7 games to be played at Wembley and minimal travelling compared to some of the other competing nations. Covid restrictions meaning that at least 90% of the crowd for both the semi-final and final would be Home supporters cheering for England.

Having reached the Final sadly we came up short losing in a penalty shoot out.

Not a failure by any means but most certainly a golden opportunity missed.

[Herts Clarets]

Again, the results speak for themselves

Are the players worse or better than the Golden generation? I think its safe to say that we've no one as good as Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard for starters.

I think the only player we have who is genuine world class is Kane

And I feel this is really important, you've decided that the team bonding and the sense of togetherness is not important, and I do wonder why that is

I have never said that it is not important. I am focusing on the on field performance in our first final for 55 years where team selection and tactics were found wanting. GS had a plan, apart from the first few minutes that plan didn't work. He didn't appear to be able to change things to respond to opposition changes and failings in his own plan.

[MACCA]

What they’ve done for their club Saka has never taken a penalty for Arsenal

That's what Gareth said, maybe Gary got confused...

[RicardoMontalban]

Yes but people aren’t paying me millions to decide on my pot noodle selection, yes mistakes happen of course in high pressure situations, aren’t we allowed to discuss them & criticise where appropriate, the fat lad on the cabbage patch is the lad who’s dispatching a penalty in the correct manner whilst not receiving any financial return, let’s not forget that salient point.

I’m not sure what you think bringing the amount he gets paid into the argument adds to all of this. He gets paid what top players at clubs like United get paid. He is a beneficiary of an industry that pays eye watering amounts to those good enough. It’s a straw man argument, not a salient point.

And of course criticism is allowed, just as those arguments are equally allowed to be criticised.

[Lancasterclaret]

I have never said that it is not important. I am focusing on the on field performance in our first final for 55 years where team selection and tactics were found wanting. GS had a plan, apart from the first few minutes that plan didn't work. He didn't appear to be able to change things to respond to opposition changes and failings in his own plan.

Well that not true though is it?

He bought on Saka and Henderson (both who have come in and done well in previous games) and they didn't have good games. That happens, and it doesn't mean that the manager didn't have a plan or that they are rubbish players.

Either your expectation levels are too high (impossible for an England fan!) or there is some other reason you don't like Southgate.

[Billy Balfour]

I love it how some so-called football fans think that Southgate said; 'well it's pens now lads, who fancies it?'

[Jakubclaret]

Jakub does like to stick the boot into Rashford at any opportunity

& people like you like to defend him at any opportunity because of the free school meals, he could miss 3 penalties, score an own goal & get sent off & you & others would find a way of defending him.

[BurnleyFC]

Grealish wanted to take a penalty but wasn’t chosen, he’s now said so himself.

I think the real problem with penalties in a high pressure situation is having the confidence to step up and do it. They all have the technique to a certain extent or they wouldn’t be professional footballers.

I’d have backed him to stick it away purely down to how confident he always is.

[Socrates]

Grealish wants absolutely flogging for saying that.

Chucked the manager under the bus and makes it all about him. A proper dickhead move.

[BurnleyFC]

Grealish wants absolutely flogging for saying that.

Chucked the manager under the bus and makes it all about him. A proper dickhead move.

Probably wasn’t the wisest move but I do admire his honesty.

I mentioned earlier up the thread that I feared there might be a player revolt. That comment could signal the start.

[TheFamilyCat]

Grealish wants absolutely flogging for saying that.

Chucked the manager under the bus and makes it all about him. A proper dickhead move.

Southgate has come out himself though and said the penalty takers were his choice. Grealish hasn't really said anything we didn't know.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Can’t see an issue with it myself. He’s getting criticised and standing up for himself.

Can’t see the issue with the takers either, they’ll have practiced and the best ones will no doubt have been picked.

[Socrates]

Southgate has come out himself though and said the penalty takers were his choice. Grealish hasn't really said anything we didn't know.

He has.

He said he wanted to take one and Southgate didn’t choose him. That’s very different from “we chose these five”.

I think it’s contradictory to the “we win and lose together” message.

[Ric_C]

Grealish has done nothing wrong here. He's been getting flogged in the media for bottling it and not stepping up. He's only putting the record straight. I don't see it as a slight on Southgate either?

[Spijed]

Grealish wants absolutely flogging for saying that.

Chucked the manager under the bus and makes it all about him. A proper dickhead move.

So you think he should keep quiet when he's being slagged off for supposedly being spinless?

"Roy Keane has slammed senior England players such as Raheem Sterling and Jack Grealish for allowing younger members of the squad take crucial penalties in shootout defeat to Italy on Sunday".
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... e-21028346

[alwaysaclaret]

You realise the best penalty takers in the Premier League are Fernandes and Jorginho correct?

They don't just run up and put their foot through it.

We're all aware that a penalty is not easy to score at this level and I am very aware it's not just a case of putting your foot through it, but at the same time I don't expect to see some sort of strictly routine.

[willsclarets]

There's no doubt about it, we came up short last night. But getting to the final is a good achievement. I just hope Southgate learns from it. There's a time to be cautious, and a time to go for the kill. Sitting back against the Italians 1-0 up was suicide, and it's so so hard to flip momentum when it's against you. England are not Burnley, and not the England of old, we have top notch players who can hurt the opposition. We didn't use them enough last night, and in my opinion asked far too much of i) Grealish in such a short space of time and ii) Saka when compared to Sancho is nowhere near as seasoned in big games. Our formation was not working, and Mount was having a really poor game a long time before he was hooked. As brilliant as Sterling was in the tournament, it wasn't his night either. We had a bench of brilliant attacking players with fresh legs. Do we lose or gain by having Grealish, Saka and Sancho on for 30-40 mins when the game had clearly slipped from our grasp with the starting 11? Italy changed their forward line about 8 times, and caused us more and more problems as the game went on