São Paulo Grand Prix, controversy already

[AlargeClaret]

A stunning victory by Hamilton, and that's why he'll go down as one of if not the all time greatest.

And if he does yet claim his 8th championship that will surely end any debate as to who is the GOAT.

While Lewis will undoubtedly go down as one of the greats of the modern era ,there’s never been a driver with such car dominance for so many years ( perhaps with the exception of 3 of Vettel’s) . Even yesterday his new power unit was almost embarrassingly good tbf. There’s multiple current drivers who could comfortably have won in the Merc the last 8/9 yrs. The likes of Alonso , Raikkonen ,Verstappen,Vettel being perfect examples . People thinking he’s better than Senna/Schu/Prost etc are acting like giddy fan boys . Fact is we’ll never know

[Herts Clarets]

While Lewis will undoubtedly go down as one of the greats of the modern era ,there’s never been a driver with such car dominance for so many years ( perhaps with the exception of 3 of Vettel’s) . Even yesterday his new power unit was almost embarrassingly good tbf. There’s multiple current drivers who could comfortably have won in the Merc the last 8/9 yrs. The likes of Alonso , Raikkonen ,Verstappen,Vettel being perfect examples . People thinking he’s better than Senna/Schu/Prost etc are acting like giddy fan boys . Fact is we’ll never know

Except the only driver in equal machinery who has finished above Hamilton to take a world title was Rosberg. Once. Hamilton has bettered Bottas in every year, bettered reigning world champ Alonso on his first year, bettered both years with Kovalinen, shared the spoils with Button 1 year each and in front of Rosberg for 2 out of 3 years.

People overlook the fact that the best drivers get the best cars. You don't develop a car that is as quick as the Merc or Red Bull then appoint Mazepin to drive it.

[jackmiggins]

Isn't it a reflection of football??? Aston Martin might as well put out a Skoda.

[minnieclaret]

All true above.
The best jockeys get the best horses.

[bobinho]

It’s absolutely NOT about the drivers tho is it…. If it was they’d all be in the same car and draw lots as to which one they get.

Fan bois and the drivers themselves care, but for everyone else, it’s the cars.

[Rileybobs]

It’s absolutely NOT about the drivers tho is it…. If it was they’d all be in the same car and draw lots as to which one they get.

Fan bois and the drivers themselves care, but for everyone else, it’s the cars.

It’s about both, obviously. But how can you suggest that the drivers don’t play a significant part? Had the roles been reversed could you imagine Bottas doing what Hamilton did yesterday?

[bobinho]

Fantastic to know UTC forum has so many vastly experienced F1 drivers who know what it’s like to drive on a dirty line whilst defending the lead of a race

We also know which team and formation is our best chance of winning the next game…..

[bobinho]

It’s about both, obviously. But how can you suggest that the drivers don’t play a significant part? Had the roles been reversed could you imagine Bottas doing what Hamilton did yesterday?

I havent suggested the drivers don’t play a significant part… they clearly do. What I said was the whole championship isn’t about the drivers, it’s about the cars.

We can all say LH is the best driver, but we don’t REALLY know, because he’s in the best car. Stick em all in the same car, then you’ll know for sure. I’d suggest he probably is, but it’s conjecture.

[Rileybobs]

I havent suggested the drivers don’t play a significant part… they clearly do. What I said was the whole championship isn’t about the drivers, it’s about the cars.

We can all say LH is the best driver, but we don’t REALLY know, because he’s in the best car. Stick em all in the same car, then you’ll know for sure. I’d suggest he probably is, but it’s conjecture.

It’s a bit like saying we don’t know whether Messi/Ronaldo is the best player ever because he always played for the best teams.

We know that Hamilton gets more out of his car than his team mates. If he was offered to any team in F1 as their number one driver, with the exception of Red Bull due to Verstappen’s age, they would all take him.

[Lowbankclaret]

While Lewis will undoubtedly go down as one of the greats of the modern era ,there’s never been a driver with such car dominance for so many years ( perhaps with the exception of 3 of Vettel’s) . Even yesterday his new power unit was almost embarrassingly good tbf. There’s multiple current drivers who could comfortably have won in the Merc the last 8/9 yrs. The likes of Alonso , Raikkonen ,Verstappen,Vettel being perfect examples . People thinking he’s better than Senna/Schu/Prost etc are acting like giddy fan boys . Fact is we’ll never know

Really , I don’t think you follow F1 to closely.
When Rosberg won the title, he sat everyone down, family and his support entourage.
He said everyone would have to sacrifice the whole year to back him, his wife would have to sleep alone. The only focus anyone could have was on him winning the Championship and everyone would have to make sacrifices.
He still nearly lost to Lewis, think Lewis had an engine failure or he would have won, there were more twists and turns if I remember.
Nico came out two days after winning and said he couldn’t ask them even to do it again which meant he could never win again so he retired.
Lewis on the other hand just rocks up each weekend and drives the car.

[AlargeClaret]

Really , I don’t think you follow F1 to closely.
When Rosberg won the title, he sat everyone down, family and his support entourage.
He said everyone would have to sacrifice the whole year to back him, his wife would have to sleep alone. The only focus anyone could have was on him winning the Championship and everyone would have to make sacrifices.
He still nearly lost to Lewis, think Lewis had an engine failure or he would have won, there were more twists and turns if I remember.
Nico came out two days after winning and said he couldn’t ask them even to do it again which meant he could never win again so he retired.
Lewis on the other hand just rocks up each weekend and drives the car.

What on earth has this drivel gotta do with my post ? Are you suggesting Lewis doesn’t have the whole organisation behind him ? Rosberg hated Lewis due to his constant bitching but could have won 2 titles . He was also referring to his family and entourage not Mercedes.’ Alonso left due to LH demanding a little more than equal, status Button outpointed him etc though neither quite as outright quick. Lewis is incredibly fast end of . Whether he’s the GOAT is highly debatable as he’s had the pretty rare honour in F1 of having a very good ( mclaren) or one of the finest ever cars in the Merc for his entire career. If you added some semblance of balance instead of sounding like a teenage girl with a crush .

[AlargeClaret]

Except the only driver in equal machinery who has finished above Hamilton to take a world title was Rosberg. Once. Hamilton has bettered Bottas in every year, bettered reigning world champ Alonso on his first year, bettered both years with Kovalinen, shared the spoils with Button 1 year each and in front of Rosberg for 2 out of 3 years.

People overlook the fact that the best drivers get the best cars. You don't develop a car that is as quick as the Merc or Red Bull then appoint Mazepin to drive it.

LH was far quicker than Bottas and Kov , they were both outright no 2’s. Rosberg took 1 of those 3 yrs( yr before he won ) right down to the last race when they were neck and neck all season. As for Alonso they finished on same points in their single season together , great rookie yr for LH though .

While nobody doubts LH’s speed or remarkable title haul ,it cannot be overlooked the constant almost unheard of dominance in longevity of the Merc .

It could be said that Rosberg destroyed Schumacher while at Mercedes but that’s beside the point really .

[1968claret]

NAme me a multiple F1 champion that hasn’t regularly had the best car.
As for LH having the best car this year, I think that is very much open to debate. The RB and Mercedes are very evenly matched and I would suggest that over the course of the year RB probably edges it due to consistency/reliability.
It is just that LH is able to squeeze the absolute best out of the package.
In my opinion he is the best F1 racer of all time. But I accept that it will always be a matter for opinion and debate.

[Colburn_Claret]

I think the strategists at Merc, have made a few poor decisions this season, which have cost LH points. Wrong tyres, pitting at the wrong time. They are normally very good.

I don't get the bitching about him having the best car, if Merc thought there was a better driver out there, they would sign him up, and any driver would jump to drive for them. I like Verstappen a lot, he will go on to be a multiple world champion, but if he and Lewis were driving each others cars this year, I think Lewis would have an even bigger lead than Max.

[Andreshotboots]

It’s about both, obviously. But how can you suggest that the drivers don’t play a significant part? Had the roles been reversed could you imagine Bottas doing what Hamilton did yesterday?

They should draw tickets out of a hat for a car before the race, that would prove who the best driver was. My Grandad could finish on the podium in a Mercedes and he only had one eye!!!

[RVclaret]

They should draw tickets out of a hat for a car before the race, that would prove who the best driver was. My Grandad could finish on the podium in a Mercedes and he only had one eye!!!

What an utterly bizarre and clueless comment.

[Andreshotboots]

What an utterly bizarre and clueless comment.

What an utterly obnoxious and clueless **** you are.

[RVclaret]

What an utterly obnoxious and clueless **** you are.

Ooooooo

[minnieclaret]

Merc now looking to appeal after the RB steering wheel video has been looked at.
All too technical for me.
Live I thought braking later than LH and on the inside line was a bit naughty and the reason he went straight on. Said previously I thought Bottas pushing so hard late was to get within 5 secs to open up the option of an appeal. Still haven’t discovered if he made it. I don’t like championships being won in the courts but I do think Verstappen knew exactly what he was doing.

[Bosscat]

Merc now looking to appeal after the RB steering wheel video has been looked at.
All too technical for me.
Live I thought braking later than LH and on the inside line was a bit naughty and the reason he went straight on. Said previously I thought Bottas pushing so hard late was to get within 5 secs to open up the option of an appeal. Still haven’t discovered if he made it. I don’t like championships being won in the courts but I do think Verstappen knew exactly what he was doing.

Earlier in the season Hamilton got a drive through penalty for doing something very similar to Verstappen if memory serves ... and after wing-gate on Friday ... its all getting a bit underhand at both Redbull and Mercedes ... pity it couldn't just be done on the track

[RVclaret]

Earlier in the season Hamilton got a drive through penalty for doing something very similar to Verstappen if memory serves ... and after wing-gate on Friday ... its all getting a bit underhand at both Redbull and Mercedes ... pity it couldn't just be done on the track

This seasons Netflix series is going to be epic! Have you watched the previous ones?

[Bosscat]

This seasons Netflix series is going to be epic! Have you watched the previous ones?

No don't have netflix

[Zlatan]

Merc now looking to appeal after the RB steering wheel video has been looked at.
All too technical for me.
Live I thought braking later than LH and on the inside line was a bit naughty and the reason he went straight on. Said previously I thought Bottas pushing so hard late was to get within 5 secs to open up the option of an appeal. Still haven’t discovered if he made it. I don’t like championships being won in the courts but I do think Verstappen knew exactly what he was doing.

after seeing the footage today I don't think Verstappen did anything wrong, he braked a little later than he normally would I am surmising, but that was as a result of defending the corner which he is entitled to do. Then on a dirty line he ran wide and was essentially a passenger at that stage and both drivers did well to avoid a collision.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... o-paulo-gp

Lets not forget that Hamilton did similar to Verstappen at Silverstone with almost deadly consequences and many on here were defending Hamilton incorrectly in my opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIKel6jVD3Q

[Herts Clarets]

Would be very interesting to see a comparison between Max's actions when Lewis was alongside him with the same corner when solo. It appeared to me that he turned in very late, when he would ordinarily have hit the apex. And in mid corner there is a straightening of the wheel to take him to b the very outside of the corner before he puts the power down and gets a bit of oversteer.

For me Max knew exactly what he was doing and as it did after the first viewing, feel that he was very lucky to avoid a sanction.

[Lowbankclaret]

after seeing the footage today I don't think Verstappen did anything wrong, he braked a little later than he normally would I am surmising, but that was as a result of defending the corner which he is entitled to do. Then on a dirty line he ran wide and was essentially a passenger at that stage and both drivers did well to avoid a collision.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... o-paulo-gp

Lets not forget that Hamilton did similar to Verstappen at Silverstone with almost deadly consequences and many on here were defending Hamilton incorrectly in my opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIKel6jVD3Q

10% agree with that.

[Bosscat]

10% agree with that.

10%

[1968claret]

Lets not forget that Hamilton did similar to Verstappen at Silverstone with almost deadly consequences and many on here were defending Hamilton incorrectly in my opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIKel6jVD3Q

You are right. And on that occasion, Hamilton was given a penalty I believe. Verstappen’s actions were very similar, in fact probably a little more blatant. So surely a penalty should also be applied now.

[Lowbankclaret]

10%

FFS cannot edit, I did mean 100%.

[Bosscat]

FFS cannot edit, I did mean 100%.

I know buddy am still chuckling

[NewClaret]

You are right. And on that occasion, Hamilton was given a penalty I believe. Verstappen’s actions were very similar, in fact probably a little more blatant. So surely a penalty should also be applied now.

True.

Although I maintain that Lewis did nothing wrong at Silverstone and I’m not convinced that Max did anything wrong at Interlagos.

I’m a fan of F1 and letting drivers race. These stupid stewards investigations and interventions are ruining a great sport. He overtook him a couple of laps later anyway!

[Lowbankclaret]

Thing is if we are going to start retrospectively looking at two cars running wide on a concrete surface, where does that end.
Do we go back to curbs and gravel traps. Both would have been out and Lewis would not have won.
As has been said and I said at the time Lewis took Max out at Silverstone and 5-10 years ago Max would have been killed. He got no penalty.
Prost took out Senna, Senna took out Prost to win the WC no penalties.
Schumacher took out Damon to win the WC , no penalty

Trying to prove what happened in 0.2 secs of a racing drivers mind is just impossible. Even when you think you know like when Senna took out Prost, you didn’t till he admitted it years later.

[tarkys_ears]

ME : "OMG RED BULL AND HORNER ARE THE WORST!"

MERCEDES : "HOLD MY BEER"

[claretburns]

As someone mentioned above the next season of Drive to Survive will be good viewing in February next year!

Personally it is just hard racing and as has been mentioned both drivers have been on the receiving end throughout the year. Surely we want racing like this rather than all cars just forming a single line throughout 60+ laps.

[tarkys_ears]

Toto needs reigning in by Nikki.

Since he's been gone that team has been, frankly, a disgrace.

Nikki let them race. Nikki didn't complain. Toto needs guidance.

[RVclaret]

As someone mentioned above the next season of Drive to Survive will be good viewing in February next year!

Personally it is just hard racing and as has been mentioned both drivers have been on the receiving end throughout the year. Surely we want racing like this rather than all cars just forming a single line throughout 60+ laps.

Quite right but when the title is so close every point now counts. Hamilton was penalised for pretty much the same thing at Silverstone so why shouldn’t they appeal against Max here?

[claretburns]

Quite right but when the title is so close every point now counts. Hamilton was penalised for pretty much the same thing at Silverstone so why shouldn’t they appeal against Max here?

I actually find the two instances different.

At Interlagos Verstappen when defending a corner, which is a normal overtake corner, was on the dirty part of the track with tyres worn down.

At Silverstone Hamilton was desperate to get the lead on the first lap and made a horrible attempt at an overtake on a part of the track you don't overtake and therefore took out Verstappen, but even on the day Hamilton's penalty didn't mean anything as he still won the race anyway.

True I am a Verstappen fan and want him to win the title, so I am being a little unintentionally biased, I don't think so, but in F1, such as in football, with hard racing incidents like this everyone will have differing opinions.