If the worst comes to the worst what have we got to show for all the Premier league money ?

[taio]

Not been in person but Barnfield looks a fantastic set up. Don’t know what The Academy costs per annum but do we get value for money in terms of players of value coming thru ?

It's also about having excellent, rather than shite, facilities for the first team squad. So VFM is broader than just players coming through.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Not been in person but Barnfield looks a fantastic set up. Don’t know what The Academy costs per annum but do we get value for money in terms of players of value coming thru ?

When the Academy is basically starting again from a brand new start it is crazy to think players will be coming through after 2-3 years.

Most people who have had any dealings in an Academy will tell you it takes 8 - 10 years from start to begin to see proper results. Not everything in football is a quick fix.

[claretandbluesky]

As long as we can afford to keep the Barnfield site going. Sadly it’s often the case that these things get jettisoned if hard times hit.
You would hope it would be our saving grace, but business people don’t always see it like that.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

As long as we can afford to keep the Barnfield site going. Sadly it’s often the case that these things get jettisoned if hard times hit.
You would hope it would be our saving grace, but business people don’t always see it like that.

Barnfield or the youth academy?
No club jettisons it's training facility unless they're on the verge of bankruptcy.
Academy set ups have been cancelled in recent times, I think Huddersfield were one because they said it wasn't worth the time, money etc when bigger clubs can just come along and cherry pick who they want.
Brentford might be another with the same view.

[ClaretPete001]

Just for you I did some checking on West Brom and it seems that 50% ‘speculation’ was accurate. Below are accounts from Prem - Champ (where they had 2 seasons before promotion again). As you can see, wages went from 92m to 46m post relegation. Interestingly they did still make net losses those two seasons but I have struggled to find players they sold on for any substantial profit (which is what I’m suggesting we could do with the likes of McNeil/Cornet). For a more detailed thread on them you can search ‘Swiss Ramble West Brom’ into google for a detailed thread on twitter.

Fair play it does look like WBA had big relegation clauses and they managed to reduce their wage bill by half. They shipped out 17 players - some probably top earners like Johnny Evans but I would guess something similar or less than the 10 we have OOC.

So, it does look possible to reduce the wage bill by half using relegation clauses and the 10 OOC players. They still made a loss and their balance sheet does look surprisingly healthy. We still have to find another £6 million for MSD and some percentage of the £68 million for the former owners, which will put more pressure on the budget.

But it doesn't mean we have those relegation clauses in place. And my point above was that the problem is not only having the cash but it's what happens to the budget in years 2 and 3 of the parachute money, which reduces the wage spend from over £90 million to less than £20 million so you have to bear that in mind when handing out contracts. West Brom's turnover went from £124 million in the Prem' to to £70 million in year 1 to £54 million in year 2.

West Brom lost 7 million in the Prem', 6 million in Yr1 in the Championship and 27 million in Year 2 of the Championship because they lost another £20 million of TV money but could not reduce the wage bill further after Year 1 in the Championship. It then gets even worse in Yr 3.

After Yr 1 in the Championship they shipped out another 16 players plus most of the big names and replaced them with free transfers etc.(including Jay) to offset the loss of 80 per cent of the TV money in Yr 3.

My point is twofold: (1) these figures are so huge that even a 50 per cent relegation clause doesn't stem the losses and (2) Even if you have cash in Year 1 in the championship it doesn't mean you can buy who you like.

West Brom's 2020 accounts are here: https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

[ClaretTony]

I really value the Barnfield complex, it is the shining light of our stay plus the disabled stands,nothing in the post to suggest I don't.

And the Cat 1 academy which stands us in good stead for the future and all that to add to a club of our size somehow being in the Premier League for six successive seasons without a benefactor.

[ClaretPete001]

And the Cat 1 academy which stands us in good stead for the future and all that to add to a club of our size somehow being in the Premier League for six successive seasons without a benefactor.

I hate to be cast in the role of adding some balance to the debate by being negative but ho hum someone has to do it.

Arguably the Premiership money hasn't paid for any of those facilities. It sits with MSD and a 60 million charge against the assets, which has yet to be paid for.

I think that's my last contribution to this thread...! Any positive rebuttals are more than welcome.

[ClaretTony]

Arguably the Premiership money hasn't paid for any of those facilities

The Premier League money paid for the new training facilities at Gawthorpe, it paid for us moving up from Cat 3 to Cat 2 to Cat 1 in terms of the academy (2016 & 2020). We would have had to do something in terms of disabled facilities but the Premier League money meant we were able to build the facilities that we did.

[RVclaret]

I think that's my last contribution to this thread...! Any positive rebuttals are more than welcome.

Showed you how the West Brom 50% wage cut was a reality not just speculation but you chose to ignore it… wonder why.

[ClaretPete001]

Showed you how the West Brom 50% wage cut was a reality not just speculation but you chose to ignore it… wonder why.

I want to get off this thread but that comment is disingenuous. I explained that I didn't believe we have those clauses but now accept they may exist.

In the thread above, I include them and show that even with those clauses West Brom have lost £27 million by Year 2 in the championship.

My point was always that it is not how much money you have in Yr 1 but what happens to the budget in the subsequent years.

And I think my perspective on football finance and club ownership is fairly self-evident - there are no hidden agendas.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I want to get off this thread but that comment is disingenuous. I explained that I didn't believe we have those clauses but now accept they may exist.

In the thread above, I include them and show that even with those clauses West Brom have lost £27 million by Year 2 in the championship.

My point was always that it is not how much money you have in Yr 1 but what happens to the budget in the subsequent years.

And I think my perspective on football finance and club ownership is fairly self-evident - there are no hidden agendas.

Our wage bill doesn't exceed current income.
If we get relegated the same will apply due to relegation clauses.
Any new players we sign will have to fit into the new wage structure if we are in the championship and that will always be the same as our finances decrease the longer we are in there.

Clubs like WBA struggle because their wage bill is unmanageable, even with relegation clauses, but that's because those who run the game don't see it as an issue.
Very few clubs operate within their means, precisely because they've been allowed to get away with it for so long.

[RVclaret]

I want to get off this thread but that comment is disingenuous. I explained that I didn't believe we have those clauses but now accept they may exist.

In the thread above, I include them and show that even with those clauses West Brom have lost £27 million by Year 2 in the championship.

My point was always that it is not how much money you have in Yr 1 but what happens to the budget in the subsequent years.

And I think my perspective on football finance and club ownership is fairly self-evident - there are no hidden agendas.

My apologies for some reason I completely missed your reply above, not sure how, again, apologies.

Agree in the main with what you said, years 3 onwards would be quite interesting and I think we’d end up in the boat of the likes of Swansea at the moment, selling most key playing assets, using the youth system (one legacy of the PL mentioned here being the substantial improvement to this which may lead to some movement by then) and relying on a good manager / low cost signings to make top 6.

But with the parachute payments + keeping most of the key squad together, that’s why most, but not all, clubs do bounce back in years 1 and 2, even if running at a small loss in that time as West Brom did. You’d also have to imagine new players would fit within the present wage structure and we’d continue to be run as a tight ship. I have studied private equity / LBO in my finance degrees and most evidence points towards frugal financial management due to the need to deliver on debt requirements.

I think ALK will keep and back dyche to deliver it, given his outstanding record at that level.

[ClaretAndBlue94]

A significant amount of the money has funded ageing players contracts ie Long for 10 years, Bardsley , Stephens,JBG and not being savvy in the sale of
certain players before they were ooc-Brady,Hendrick

I wonder what Kevin Long has cost Burnley in total for 10 years of 'service' ?

[claretonthecoast1882]

I wonder what Kevin Long has cost Burnley in total for 10 years of 'service' ?

If Long wasn't here do you think we would just go with 3 central defenders or would we have to buy someone to replace him and pay him a wage as well ?

Wonder what signing 2 or 3 players, signing on fees and wages would have cost us over 10 years

[aggi]

I'm loathe to go around this again but we have three years of parachute money.

In the first season we would lose around £50 million quid's worth of TV money, which equates to slightly more than half the wage bill. I don't think the out of contract players would cover £50 million quid so you'd have to lose 10 players plus probably another 2 or 3 to cover the TV money. Not to mention the lower gates and ancillary commercial revenue.

If we end up trying to fill operating cost shortfalls by selling assets then obviously that bears some risk.

But obviously there are relegation clauses which would significantly cut that shortfall. Losing 50% of wages (which isn't beyond the realms of possibility) would put us back on track by what you say above.

[aggi]

...
But it doesn't mean we have those relegation clauses in place.
...
Snipped for brevity

If those clauses aren't in place a number of people are going to be in trouble.

[ClaretPete001]

If we end up trying to fill operating cost shortfalls by selling assets then obviously that bears some risk.

But obviously there are relegation clauses which would significantly cut that shortfall. Losing 50% of wages (which isn't beyond the realms of possibility) would put us back on track by what you say above.

It gets you back on track in Yr 1 but then you are faced with the same problem in Yrs 2,3 and 4. But yes if we have 50 per cent clauses there is some breathing space

Must admit I didn't realise that relegation clauses are as high as 50 per cent. It's now clear why relegated clubs better players leave as soon as they can.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Most player contracts are a minimum of 3yrs, sometimes 4-5
By the end of yr 3 we would be negotiating new deals or selling players to sign ones on lower wages.

[ClaretAndBlue94]

If Long wasn't here do you think we would just go with 3 central defenders or would we have to buy someone to replace him and pay him a wage as well ?

Wonder what signing 2 or 3 players, signing on fees and wages would have cost us over 10 years

My question is purely out of interest. I like Long and would keep for 4th choice.

[aggi]

It gets you back on track in Yr 1 but then you are faced with the same problem in Yrs 2,3 and 4. But yes if we have 50 per cent clauses there is some breathing space

Must admit I didn't realise that relegation clauses are as high as 50 per cent. It's now clear why relegated clubs better players leave as soon as they can.

There are a few factors.

Bonuses make up a substantial part of our wage including a large staying up bonus. If we are relegated then this bonus isn't paid so you're starting from a lower baseline. There is then a large promotion bonus. If we go up no-one cares about taking this hit as we're back on Premier League money. If we don't go up then the wage figure is more affordable.

50% of a Premier League wage is still a substantial Championship wage.

But yes, without owners with deep pockets we only really have a couple of seasons where we have a competitive advantage. After that you need to start making some big cuts

[bfcjg]

And the Cat 1 academy which stands us in good stead for the future and all that to add to a club of our size somehow being in the Premier League for six successive seasons without a benefactor.

In my opening post I should havecseperated the good ie the infrastructure from the not so good ie aging squad etc.
Barnfield and the academy could be what gets us back up if the worst comes to the worst I really am concerned though by the debt structure we are saddled with especially as it could be argued that Gawthorpe is a developed site of sorts in a very desirable area.

[Chester Perry]

In my opening post I should havecseperated the good ie the infrastructure from the not so good ie aging squad etc.
Barnfield and the academy could be what gets us back up if the worst comes to the worst I really am concerned though by the debt structure we are saddled with especially as it could be argued that Gawthorpe is a developed site of sorts in a very desirable area.

Gawthorpe can never be sold for housing - that was established during the itv digital fallout and led to the selling of Turf Moor, Gawthorpe and the lad off junction 0 of the M65 to Longside Properties Limited (Barry Kilby and John Sullivan) which was later sold to Lionbridge, a company based in the British Virgin Islands, in 2009. LPL was bought back by the club through the vehicle Turf Moor Properties in 2013 - made possible by loans from
Ann Maitland
Brian & Sandra Nelson
David Sunter
Geoff Westmore
Harry Brooks
Jason Bannister
John Banaszkiewicz
Jon Ratcliffe
Mark Griffiths & Heather Brown
Martin Hobbs
Richard Sutton
Terry Crabb

I always find it surprising how little most fans know of our club and its financial turmoils - all this was discussed in January on this board - viewtopic.php?p=1411662

[ClaretTony]

I really am concerned though by the debt structure we are saddled with especially as it could be argued that Gawthorpe is a developed site of sorts in a very desirable area.

I agree totally on the debt concern. Gawthorpe though isn't a desirable area because of all the restrictions placed on it.

[bfcjg]

There are restrictions, however I am more concerned regarding some commercial use for the building foot print and leisure for the rest. Restrictive covenants can be removed and let's be honest Barnfield are pretty good at development.

[aggi]

Gawthorpe can never be sold for housing - that was established during the itv digital fallout and led to the selling of Turf Moor, Gawthorpe and the lad off junction 0 of the M65 to Longside Properties Limited (Barry Kilby and John Sullivan) which was later sold to Lionbridge, a company based in the British Virgin Islands, in 2009. LPL was bought back by the club through the vehicle Turf Moor Properties in 2013 - made possible by loans from
Ann Maitland
Brian & Sandra Nelson
David Sunter
Geoff Westmore
Harry Brooks
Jason Bannister
John Banaszkiewicz
Jon Ratcliffe
Mark Griffiths & Heather Brown
Martin Hobbs
Richard Sutton
Terry Crabb

I always find it surprising how little most fans know of our club and its financial turmoils - all this was discussed in January on this board - viewtopic.php?p=1411662

Restrictive covenants can be removed and, if it was in London, it may be a risk. I don't think there's a risk in Burnley though.

I've always found it surprising that the owners of Lionbridge never ended up in the public domain. There's this entity which has a partial name match and the dates seem to match up https://offshoreleaks.icij.org/nodes/166919 but I suspect that's just coincidence.

I suspect the ground being sold to a company in a tax haven would cause far more outrage now than it did then, there were far fewer of us looking at the financial side then.

[Chester Perry]

Restrictive covenants can be removed and, if it was in London, it may be a risk. I don't think there's a risk in Burnley though.

I've always found it surprising that the owners of Lionbridge never ended up in the public domain. There's this entity which has a partial name match and the dates seem to match up https://offshoreleaks.icij.org/nodes/166919 but I suspect that's just coincidence.

I suspect the ground being sold to a company in a tax haven would cause far more outrage now than it did then, there were far fewer of us looking at the financial side then.

It would be nice to know more about Mr. Taned Pattrawong and if has any relationships with John Sullivan or Barry Kilby - indeed anyone else with links to the club - difficult to find any other information on him at all though