What changed?

[Chester Perry]

When were we ever a small club? a **** team isn't a small club. We SHOULD be in the top division of English football by divine right based on number of points accumulated in the history of English football. We have played almost 3x as many top flight games as Crystal Palace.



Every time you comment on football, you go from bad take to bad take. You can stop decline, it doesn't matter how many arses you have on seats, trophies won previously or anything else that determines size of club.

Some of that includes being in at the get go of the leagues formation, were we not among the first to be relegated when a second division was formed? We were also very fortunate to be part of that founding 12, it raised eyebrows at the time.

I also keep seeing your kind of logic being used by Evertonian's (another founding team) and it is just the same self entitled crap we heard from boardrooms for decades - look how fans ridiculed Gartside at Bolton for his proclamations and equally consider how people are lauding Brentford, or consider that well over half of the 92 have played in the Premier League in its 29 year existence. the games health is better for the churn, even at the bottom where we came very close to be the first to sample that change - if you don't believe that you might as well champion the closed league that Gartside did.

Football is heading in the direction where financial means are becoming the key determinant as to the level you play at - new rulings of FFP at both UEFA and domestic levels are likely to see to that, as is all the campaigning for what the Independent Football regulator will be asked to do.

We are a small club from a small and somewhat destitute town that has a history where at times we have hugely over achieved relative to our financial power, that is the foundation of our proud identity and status within the game. Recent achievements against the odds have re-energised that standing. Arguing anything else is both nonsensical and unnecessary. It is our town and our club, we tend to love them both perhaps rather too fiercely at times. The notion of us being a big club seems much more about the identity needs of those that cling to it.

[Jakubclaret]

The Orsic deal is ifs, buts and maybes. I don't think anyway would recognise the analogy of selling a Declan RIce for a £150 million and buying £150 million quid's worth of quality players as relating to Burnley. Brentford have spent more than we have in the last 3 seasons and I highly doubt they will be in the Premier League in 6 seasons time so I don't think they are a useful example.

There are no managers that can live on a budget like ours and buy and sell their way to surviving in the Premier League for an extended period. It just doesn't happen. Palace has been bailed out with huge investment and selling an academy player for £50 million. Other than that not a lot. Watford and Norwich are going down.

Brighton are the only other club similar to us and they have spent very big.

The question is what happened and the answer is that we haven't spent enough to sustain a Premier League place. Yes, there is an argument we could have sold more players at the top of their value and bought nuggets at the bottom but no manager has managed to do that for 6 seasons.

What happens is that in the end the Premiership catches up with you. If you think Sean Dyche is the issue then so be it but I don't think anyone else could have or has done what he has managed to achieve. It's all about opinions.

You say no manager has ever done that or could replicate what Sean dyche has done - maybe the fact is escaping you that no other manager apart from Sean dyche has been involved in exactly the same set of circumstances so it’s literally impossible for any other manager to have replicated, the situation here is so unique that it can’t be copied elsewhere not exactly like for like. The money was spent to cement & sustain a premier league place just on the wrong kind of signings & diabolical recruitment.

[ClaretPete001]

You say no manager has ever done that or could replicate what Sean dyche has done - maybe the fact is escaping you that no other manager apart from Sean dyche has been involved in exactly the same set of circumstances so it’s literally impossible for any other manager to have replicated, the situation here is so unique that it can’t be copied elsewhere not exactly like for like. The money was spent to cement & sustain a premier league place just on the wrong kind of signings & diabolical recruitment.

That's a pretty lame argument Jakub.

Lots of smaller clubs have been in the Premiership few have survived for 6 seasons even less without substantive investment and no one has done it without any debt whatsoever (up to ALK/VSL buyout).

Norwich is the only club to try our model and they have not had our success because they haven't had Sean Dyche.

[ClaretPete001]

Some of that includes being in at the get go of the leagues formation, were we not among the first to be relegated when a second division was formed? We were also very fortunate to be part of that founding 12, it raised eyebrows at the time.

I also keep seeing your kind of logic being used by Evertonian's (another founding team) and it is just the same self entitled crap we heard from boardrooms for decades - look how fans ridiculed Gartside at Bolton for his proclamations and equally consider how people are lauding Brentford, or consider that well over half of the 92 have played in the Premier League in its 29 year existence. the games health is better for the churn, even at the bottom where we came very close to be the first to sample that change - if you don't believe that you might as well champion the closed league that Gartside did.

Football is heading in the direction where financial means are becoming the key determinant as to the level you play at - new rulings of FFP at both UEFA and domestic levels are likely to see to that, as is all the campaigning for what the Independent Football regulator will be asked to do.

We are a small club from a small and somewhat destitute town that has a history where at times we have hugely over achieved relative to our financial power, that is the foundation of our proud identity and status within the game. Recent achievements against the odds have re-energised that standing. Arguing anything else is both nonsensical and unnecessary. It is our town and our club, we tend to love them both perhaps rather too fiercely at times. The notion of us being a big club seems much more about the identity needs of those that cling to it.

Totally agree albeit the destitute bit hurts a little.

The minimum wage was around until the 60s but subsequent to that finance has become more important.

Truth is the club has been a model of how to brilliantly run a small club.

Arguably had it not been for the takeover and the decision not to invest during Covid we would have survived even longer.

I see no decent argument to blame the manager or not to accept what has been an incredible achievement for the club and the town.

[AlargeClaret]

We were poor last yr , we’re now even poorer , older , slower etc . While WW is a welcome addiction as is Cornet of course it’s been a bit too little too late . It’s all about Everton anyway

[Chester Perry]

Totally agree albeit the destitute bit hurts a little.

I know, it is even worse when you consider that the Premier League years have enriched it quite a bit too - but the poverty is truly stark, much more so than I remember from the 70's and 80's and that was grim in a lot of places, but Gannow, Burnley Wood, Cog Lane, Coal Clough Duke Bar and Stoneyholme all seemed much more vibrant and happy places than they are now

[Jakubclaret]

I know, it is even worse when you consider that the Premier League years have enriched it quite a bit too - but the poverty is truly stark, much more so than I remember from the 70's and 80's and that was grim in a lot of places, but Gannow, Burnley Wood, Cog Lane, Coal Clough Duke Bar and Stoneyholme all seemed much more vibrant and happy places than they are now

That’s exactly true & you’ve touched upon how different things are now to back then, without straying too far & trying to stay within the confines of the subject, immigrations brought some benefits to the town but if you are being truly honest it’s come at the price of cultural erosion & increased poverty with certain people struggling for employment & things certainly are gloomier the odd times I visit.

[ClaretPete001]

I know, it is even worse when you consider that the Premier League years have enriched it quite a bit too - but the poverty is truly stark, much more so than I remember from the 70's and 80's and that was grim in a lot of places, but Gannow, Burnley Wood, Cog Lane, Coal Clough Duke Bar and Stoneyholme all seemed much more vibrant and happy places than they are now

Yes, mind you it was a rough old town in the 70s. But yes, some areas seem to have lost a sense of community. I remember walking through Stoneyholme and Duke bar to go to Barden, which was a nightmare school. And I'm sure there were some playing fields called Cherry Tree down Cog Lane because we used to go to the shop at the top for sherbert dips and play football on the field.

Blimey I'm beginning to sound like my Grandad ...

On the upside much of the surrounding area is stunning and you don't have to go far to find some great places to visit/eat etc.

[KRBFC]

We are a small club from a small and somewhat destitute town that has a history where at times we have hugely over achieved relative to our financial power, that is the foundation of our proud identity and status within the game. Recent achievements against the odds have re-energised that standing. Arguing anything else is both nonsensical and unnecessary. It is our town and our club, we tend to love them both perhaps rather too fiercely at times. The notion of us being a big club seems much more about the identity needs of those that cling to it.

Suggesting we're a small club because of town size is nonsensical, this generation we've probably got minimum 14,000 who will go every week regardless of level, certainly up from Cotterill where is was closer to 10k. If we played exciting forward thinking non boring football, we'd likely squeeze out more attending fans.

We are inside the top 20 football clubs in England for points won in the top flight. That means on merit, we're exactly where we should be.

I'm not going to bore you with the whole trophies won, but during the entire 60s, we were 3rd I believe for most points won (in that 10 year period), I wasn't alive, but to me that suggests it wasn't a fluke season. The way some people talk on here and completely discredit our club, it's like we're Barnsley. The truth is, we are a medium sized club.

[Vegas Claret]

it's not so long ago Bury beat Man City away in the Championship. Fortunes change in sport as they do in all other aspects of life. It's always about managing the dips the best way you can to change their direction. We are in a dip

[Chester Perry]

Suggesting we're a small club because of town size is nonsensical, this generation we've probably got minimum 14,000 who will go every week regardless of level, certainly up from Cotterill where is was closer to 10k. If we played exciting forward thinking non boring football, we'd likely squeeze out more attending fans.

We are inside the top 20 football clubs in England for points won in the top flight. That means on merit, we're exactly where we should be.

I'm not going to bore you with the whole trophies won, but during the entire 60s, we were 3rd I believe for most points won (in that 10 year period), I wasn't alive, but to me that suggests it wasn't a fluke season. The way some people talk on here and completely discredit our club, it's like we're Barnsley. The truth is, we are a medium sized club.

I stand by everything I said all you have done is re-enforce everything I said, not make a point

Our successes have never come from a sense of entitlement, rather by applying sound management and strategy. Whenever we have slipped into the notion of entitlement our fortunes have slipped.

In the 1890's the game introduced player registration to enable better competition, in the early 1900's they introduced the maximum wage to enable better competition, we also had the gate share to enable better competition.

In the early sixties we lost the maximum wage in football (for reasons good and bad), in the late 70's we lost the gate share, in the early 80's we lost the equal distribution of tv money across the 92, then we saw greater inequality of distribution in each subsequent tv cycle - culminating in the Premier League in 1992 - also the year that the Champions League started with group games and more revenue. By the late 90's you had multiple teams in the Champions league, which has since led to huge commercial revenues.

Subsequent financial regulation and it's iterations has pushed the importance of revenue capability and that is most definitely the direction of travel going forward. We will see in coming seasons just how that will sort the order of what is and isn't a big club - on those terms we are probably in the upper reaches of League One - which just makes our historical and recent record the glorious thing that we treasure, It doesn't change what we have always been,

[KRBFC]

Subsequent financial regulation and it's iterations has pushed the importance of revenue capability and that is most definitely the direction of travel going forward. We will see in coming seasons just how that will sort the order of what is and isn't a big club - on those terms we are probably in the upper reaches of League One - which just makes our historical and recent record the glorious thing that we treasure, It doesn't change what we have always been,

I don't disagree the landscape is certainly changing, finances are dictating everything. Financially we are in a terrible state, I don't think the size of our club instantly changed when ALK bought us though, certainly our potential future changed for the worse. I'm not sure current owner wealth is the only determining factor when considering club size. We haven't really ever been a consistent League One side, only 11 seasons at that level in our history. Just based on history alone, we're comfortably a top 2 division side. 59 seasons in the top division, 46 in the 2nd tier.

It's not about entitlement, it's about reflecting fairly on our position. Maybe you like to be seen as the tiny club punching above it's weight at any level, it's not the case though.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Suggesting we're a small club because of town size is nonsensical, this generation we've probably got minimum 14,000 who will go every week regardless of level, certainly up from Cotterill where is was closer to 10k. If we played exciting forward thinking non boring football, we'd likely squeeze out more attending fans.

We are inside the top 20 football clubs in England for points won in the top flight. That means on merit, we're exactly where we should be.

I'm not going to bore you with the whole trophies won, but during the entire 60s, we were 3rd I believe for most points won (in that 10 year period), I wasn't alive, but to me that suggests it wasn't a fluke season. The way some people talk on here and completely discredit our club, it's like we're Barnsley. The truth is, we are a medium sized club.

14k who'd go every week regardless of level?
Doubt that, if the club spent the next 5 yrs plus dicking around in the championship never pushing for promotion you'd see attendance numbers drop below 14k.
League one, below 10k
League 2 down to 6k ish if the club was there long term.

The fans would simply find something else to do, as proven by past history.

[Newcastleclaret93]

14k who'd go every week regardless of level?
Doubt that, if the club spent the next 5 yrs plus dicking around in the championship never pushing for promotion you'd see attendance numbers drop below 14k.
League one, below 10k
League 2 down to 6k ish if the club was there long term.

The fans would simply find something else to do, as proven by past history.

If anything supports that theory, just look at Blackburn. A few seasons in the championship and they struggle to get 12k on.

I imagine we would be lower after a few seasons

[KRBFC]

14k who'd go every week regardless of level?
Doubt that, if the club spent the next 5 yrs plus dicking around in the championship never pushing for promotion you'd see attendance numbers drop below 14k.
League one, below 10k
League 2 down to 6k ish if the club was there long term.

The fans would simply find something else to do, as proven by past history.

I think our fan base has probably grown since the days of 10-11k under Cotterill. I think there's a core number who would support regardless of division, I don't see us as a club just to support while doing well. We aren't fancy enough for that, so I doubt you would see much movement below a baseline regardless of division. I'm not sure what that figure is but it's almost certainly above 6000.

[elwaclaret]

I think our fan base has probably grown since the days of 10-11k under Cotterill. I think there's a core number who would support regardless of division, I don't see us as a club just to support while doing well. We aren't fancy enough for that, so I doubt you would see much movement below a baseline regardless of division. I'm not sure what that figure is but it's almost certainly above 6000.

I absolutely expect the number of fans to plummet. You talk of bigger fanbase- when we dropped in the 70’s we were heading into economic depression and people had to chose between bills and football - they could watch MOTD/Kick Off to get their football fix, Burnley was a luxury and not playing at a level fans had got used too…

[claretabroad]

I think the problem isn't that something changed but that nothing changed. I lay this firmly at the feet of our previous owners who decided to cut off investment in the squad when they decided to sell up.

Our squad is old and no longer capable of competing in the premier league on a consistent basis. Appropriate investment two years ago would have avoided this but we thoroughly deserve to be where we are.

I would be incredibly surprised if we don't get relegated. Regardless of whether we do or not, the first team is in need of a massive overhaul. I trust SD to do this.

[KRBFC]

I absolutely expect the number of fans to plummet. You talk of bigger fanbase- when we dropped in the 70’s we were heading into economic depression and people had to chose between bills and football - they could watch MOTD/Kick Off to get their football fix, Burnley was a luxury and not playing at a level fans had got used too…

I think alot will depend on how bad it gets with these chancers in full control.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I think our fan base has probably grown since the days of 10-11k under Cotterill. I think there's a core number who would support regardless of division, I don't see us as a club just to support while doing well. We aren't fancy enough for that, so I doubt you would see much movement below a baseline regardless of division. I'm not sure what that figure is but it's almost certainly above 6000.

It's grown because the club has been in the PL.
It's given a number of fans a reason to watch the club play again.
Take that away and drop the quality of the opposition and the attendances would drop again.

Bolton were down to less than 12k in League one before Covid came along, this season they're closer to 15k average but that's probably because their fans had a season of no football to watch due to Covid.
Assuming they stay in league one again, then their figures will drop to sub 12k average.

Here are their attendance figures, they dropped 5k the first season in the championship
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bolton- ... verein/355

[KRBFC]

It's grown because the club has been in the PL.
It's given a number of fans a reason to watch the club play again.
Take that away and drop the quality of the opposition and the attendances would drop again.

Bolton were down to less than 12k in League one before Covid came along, this season they're closer to 15k average but that's probably because their fans had a season of no football to watch due to Covid.
Assuming they stay in league one again, then their figures will drop to sub 12k average.

Here are their attendance figures, they dropped 5k the first season in the championship
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bolton- ... verein/355

The attendances will drop once we're not in the PL, no doubt about that. I think alot of fans are bored shitless with the football atm. Bolton's a good one to follow, not too far off our PL attendances. If they're pulling 15k in League One, I'd expect us to get 12-13k.

[tiger76]

Attendances may drop slightly, but a lot will depend how we fare in the Champ, if we're riding high near the top of the league that should encourage more to attend, particularly if the footy is attractive on the eye, and the wins are coming regularly.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The attendances will drop once we're not in the PL, no doubt about that. I think alot of fans are bored shitless with the football atm. Bolton's a good one to follow, not too far off our PL attendances. If they're pulling 15k in League One, I'd expect us to get 12-13k.

They were down to 12k in league one though, it's a year of Covid preventing regular football watching that is causing a bounce I suspect, so next season they'll drop down again if they aren't mounting a promotion challenge.

The fans are only bored because we're on the verge of being relegated.
I know some people think fans are loyal and will attend regardless, but fans are customers and if they don't like the product on display then they won't part with their money, especially with the rising cost of living.

Even if we stayed up, I wouldn't expect to see us pulling in 20k averages again for a while, people just have other priorities now due to that cost of living.

[KRBFC]

They were down to 12k in league one though, it's a year of Covid preventing regular football watching that is causing a bounce I suspect, so next season they'll drop down again if they aren't mounting a promotion challenge.

The fans are only bored because we're on the verge of being relegated.
I know some people think fans are loyal and will attend regardless, but fans are customers and if they don't like the product on display then they won't part with their money, especially with the rising cost of living.

Even if we stayed up, I wouldn't expect to see us pulling in 20k averages again for a while, people just have other priorities now due to that cost of living.

Not sure about that, we haven't seen that effect.

I think the fans are bored with the style of play, if we were on the front foot I suspect it would be different but who knows.

I think the new owners hiking up the ticket prices as soon as they got their feet in the door hasn't helped either.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Not sure about that, we haven't seen that effect.

I think the fans are bored with the style of play, if we were on the front foot I suspect it would be different but who knows.

I think the new owners hiking up the ticket prices as soon as they got their feet in the door hasn't helped either.

They didn't hike prices for this season did they?

Our style of play has been the same for years, the difference is we are in real trouble this time round and that combined with Covid cases resulting matches being moved and cost of living rising means people are finding other things to do.
Football fans are only as loyal as they wish to be and that's entirely dependant on the product.

[SouthLondonexile]

Well for me the loss of Ben Mee from the team has been a significant factor in our loss of form, oh and Rodriguez hitting the bar at Brentford instead on going in was just that bit of luck we needed as well

[elwaclaret]

Well for me the loss of Ben Mee from the team has been a significant factor in our loss of form, oh and Rodriguez hitting the bar at Brentford instead on going in was just that bit of luck we needed as well

Agree about Mee, but I’d certainly add Pieters to what we re missing. Our left is wide open Pieters has the discipline to keep getting in the way and also keeps McNeal honest in his defensive duties. Our entire team benefits from the balance.