Welcome to Cat 2

[claretonthecoast1882]

That last paragraph of the club statement may be a dig at Dyche but it's more likely just a clumsy way of looking forward. If you wish then, the previous paragraph can be seen as a complement to Dyche. There were certainly a lot of young players brought in from other clubs for the under 23 side during his time.

To compare Dyche to other managers doesn't seem right anyway as he was here much longer and may well have had a bigger input into non first team aspects of the club. Since the days after Howe I thought it was the (to me sensible) practice to separate the first team management from the youth development set up but of course there must be some connection for the U-23s as that's where new first team players can come from.

I would think the question of Cat 1/Cat 2 will be a financial one - if we get back to the riches of the Prem we'll go for it but if it becomes clear we can't achieve this then Cat 2 it will be. Incidentally, what is the difference between the two of the costs?

It is a shame we are no longer CAT 1 but it isn't permanent and can be rectified. I am slightly puzzled by the high esteem Pepper seems held in when you look at his new roles mentioned earlier, hardly a leading figure in academies and their structures. If the new owners appointed someone from Chesterfield ladies to run the academy I have no doubt that would be mocked.

I don't see the paragraph as a dig at Dyche either, I perhaps would if I looked to bitch and whine at everything the club says though. It is very tiresome the constant sniping aimed at the owners. Do they make mistakes, yes - all people do. Articles on the main site get ridiculed for anything possible, articles go on this site with errors, in national papers there are errors but it seems fun to highlight anything wrong with the club.

If I found myself with such a strong dislike of the owners and angry at everything they do I would stop going to games rather than whine about them non stop.

[taio]

It is a shame we are no longer CAT 1 but it isn't permanent and can be rectified. I am slightly puzzled by the high esteem Pepper seems held in when you look at his new roles mentioned earlier, hardly a leading figure in academies and their structures. If the new owners appointed someone from Chesterfield ladies to run the academy I have no doubt that would be mocked.

I don't see the paragraph as a dig at Dyche either, I perhaps would if I looked to bitch and whine at everything the club says though. It is very tiresome the constant sniping aimed at the owners. Do they make mistakes, yes - all people do. Articles on the main site get ridiculed for anything possible, articles go on this site with errors, in national papers there are errors but it seems fun to highlight anything wrong with the club.

If I found myself with such a strong dislike of the owners and angry at everything they do I would stop going to games rather than whine about them non stop.

I have issues with Pace. But I'll be at Huddersfield on Friday and will be making good use of my season ticket this season. Stop going to games? What a stupid thing to say. I recall you often criticise those who are negative on here but don't go to games. Do you want people to go to games or not?

[claretonthecoast1882]

I have issues with Pace. But I'll be at Huddersfield on Friday and will be making good use of my season ticket this season. Stop going to games? What a stupid thing to say. I recall you often criticise those who are negative on here but don't go to games. Do you want people to go to games or not?

Is that what I said ? Stop going to games if you post negative ?

Read slower it helps. To help as well I criticise clowns

[Newcastleclaret93]

One other point, there seems a bizarre correlation with the posters concerned about Cat one status and those also hugely concerned that we are likely to start this season with a centre half pairing produced by the best academy in the country……so is youth the go to for us or not? Why would players produced in our Cat one academy fair better than those produced in someone else’s?

Just because I am concerned about the academy doesn’t mean I think the team should consist of 19 year olds.

Like everything it requires a balance. I think most people have highlighted that the academy will become critical if our fortunes change and we are in the championship for more than a couple of seasons (not when we should be pushing for promotion).

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

[nyclaret]

Just because I am concerned about the academy doesn’t mean I think the team should consist of 19 year olds.

Like everything it requires a balance. I think most people have highlighted that the academy will become critical if our fortunes change and we are in the championship for more than a couple of seasons (not when we should be pushing for promotion).

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

How many of our likely starters are younger than 20?

[Newcastleclaret93]

How many of our likely starters are younger than 20?

I would say it’s likely three of our back four will be 20 or younger

[claretonthecoast1882]

I would say it’s likely three of our back four will be 20 or younger

You also spent the whole of the last season complaining about having the oldest squad in the league and no giving youth a chance

[dandeclaret]

One other point, there seems a bizarre correlation with the posters concerned about Cat one status and those also hugely concerned that we are likely to start this season with a centre half pairing produced by the best academy in the country……so is youth the go to for us or not? Why would players produced in our Cat one academy fair better than those produced in someone else’s?

Once again, correlation of points to create a completely different insight.

Is the provision of youth players a valuable asset to a football club - Yes.

Is it important that the club has the correct first team structure to allow players to be supported on their move from the youth team through the first team - Yes.

Do you believe that the trusting of a brand new centre half pairing, in front of an inexperienced keeper meets that requirement - No.

Therefore, you can believe that the development of youth players is vital, without believing that the current approach is suitable.

[Newcastleclaret93]

You also spent the whole of the last season complaining about having the oldest squad in the league and no giving youth a chance

We have gone from having the oldest starting eleven in the football league to potentially one of the youngest.

I don’t think anyone was stating they wanted to go from one extreme to the other.

I was adamant we were going to keep a player Like Mee and compliment him in defence with some youth. Similar in attack I’m happy keeping Jay and Barnes as long as we sign a couple of promising strikers. They would compliment each other well.

I am happy with signing youngsters (I posted on the other thread about twine and Maatsen being two top signings). I just hope we get that experience blend right

[claretonthecoast1882]

We have gone from having the oldest starting eleven in the football league to potentially one of the youngest.

I don’t think anyone was stating they wanted to go from one extreme to the other.

I was adamant we were going to keep a player Like Mee and compliment him in defence with some youth. Similar in attack I’m happy keeping Jay and Barnes as long as we sign a couple of promising strikers. They would compliment each other well.

I am happy with signing youngsters (I posted on the other thread about twine and Maatsen being two top signings). I just hope we get that experience blend right

Kompany also said that we will be doing deals right up until the end of the window which is 5 weeks away.

Roberts, Lowton, Taylor, Cork, Brownhill, Barnes and Jay all already add experience and Cullen isn't 20 yrs old either

[arise_sir_charge]

I would say it’s likely three of our back four will be 20 or younger

This was your predicted/suggested line up.

BPF
Roberts, THB, Thomas, Taylor
Bastien, Cullen
McNeil, JBG
Twine (if fit), Jay

Is it likely or are you just changing your mind to argue another point?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Kompany also said that we will be doing deals right up until the end of the window which is 5 weeks away.

Roberts, Lowton, Taylor, Cork, Brownhill, Barnes and Jay all already add experience and Cullen isn't 20 yrs old either

That’s fine if he brings in that calibre of player. I have no doubt they are trying to. I’m basing it on our fixture tomorrow not in 6 weeks.

No they are all experienced but realistically how many do you see regularly playing?

Honestly out of that list I can see Roberts, Brownhill, Jay and Cullen regularly playing. That is if the likes of Roberts etc… are still here.

[Spijed]

....

[Newcastleclaret93]

This was your predicted/suggested line up.

BPF
Roberts, THB, Thomas, Taylor
Bastien, Cullen
McNeil, JBG
Twine (if fit), Jay

Is it likely or are you just changing your mind to argue another point?

I don’t get what you mean? I can’t pick players that aren’t at the club can I?

[arise_sir_charge]

Once again, correlation of points to create a completely different insight.

Is the provision of youth players a valuable asset to a football club - Yes.

Is it important that the club has the correct first team structure to allow players to be supported on their move from the youth team through the first team - Yes.

Do you believe that the trusting of a brand new centre half pairing, in front of an inexperienced keeper meets that requirement - No.

Therefore, you can believe that the development of youth players is vital, without believing that the current approach is suitable.

So you want us to produce young players, but then you’ll worry about when we pick them. Righto.

[arise_sir_charge]

I don’t get what you mean? I can’t pick players that aren’t at the club can I?

You say it’s likely our back 4 will contain 3 players under 20 but then pick a suggested team that contains just one.

[dandeclaret]

So you want us to produce young players, but then you’ll worry about when we pick them. Righto.

Any more strawmen you'd like to throw out?

[arise_sir_charge]

Any more strawmen you'd like to throw out?

Nope, happy.

[Newcastleclaret93]

You say it’s likely our back 4 will contain 3 players under 20 but then pick a suggested team that contains just one.

Yes because of the players available? I can’t pick players that arnt fit?

I highly suspect our back four will be

Roberts, THB, Riley, Maatsen when everyone is fit and firing

[nyclaret]

Yes because of the players available? I can’t pick players that arnt fit?

I highly suspect our back four will be

Roberts, THB, Riley, Maatsen when everyone is fit and firing

So 2 of those 20 or younger already have decent Championship experience then.

[BurnleyFC]

It strikes me that what we have here is a situation where ALK are like a bunch of people who have learnt to sail a dinghy and have taken over an ocean liner.The first thing they seem to have done is fire half the crew, mainly the ones who knew how the ship ran, down in the engine room and in other key departments.

I am wondering if they are sending more time desperately combing the world, Vietnam, China etc to find someone daft enough to pay off Oligarlick and John the Bagman et al rather than actually running the club. Who would cough up circa £200m now for a Championship club with Cat 2 youth system?

Answers via Instagram to ALK.

Oligarlick

[Newcastleclaret93]

So 2 of those 20 or younger already have decent Championship experience then.

They have just under a season worth of experience.

I wouldn’t have a problem with it at all if someone like a Ben Mee was starting at the back but the fact it’s three young defenders with fairly minimal experience it’s a little concerning.

[spt_claret]

and rightly so

It's unbelievable how you constantly defend ALK even when they do something as classless as this but I'll refer you to my first post in the thread.
Name a player from our Academy who should have been playing ahead of our regular squad. Don't go "hurr anybody would be better than Dale Stephens" he barely played.
Do you drop Wood for Richardson? If we're chasing a game and need a result do you sub Richardson on or, even if he is past it, Ashley Barnes who has proven to do the business before? Maybe Dan Agyei or Joel Mumbongo after all they really did the business in their cup games and sub appearances.
Would you have dropped Cork, Westwood, Defour or Brownhill for Josh Benson? So good he played around half Barnsley's games last year in the Championship.
Go back further do you bring on Josh Ginnelly over Gudmundsson or Boyd or Arfield?
How about the defence - drop Mee and Tarks for Jimmy Dinner or Tom Anderson?

Dyche produced as many top level players in his ten year tenure as the ten years before- McNeil Vs Jay. This while rebuilding the academy from the state he inherited. He produced a similar enough number of youngsters who are developing now into okay Championship players but we were Premier League so guess what? They weren't playing. The stakes and opportunity costs were higher for premier league results and betting on youngsters from an academy which is still in the building stages is a huge risk when very very few academies reliably produce top level prospects- and those that do have enormous funding resources. There's a reason not many of our lads got loans above League Two or One.

I truly don't understand people trying to downplay the Dyche era as a disappointment or failed experiment or something that held us back, while constantly defensive of ALK saying they will take us forward and be better.
So far they've taken us back. But Pace is still spinning relegation to Burnley College as not bad because we can "play to win games" (seem to recall us beating everyone but Arsenal in the Prem) and "developing players the way we want " (when we have just had a massive development setback with this downgrade).

It's a very Vegas mentality I guess. Love to gamble, love to risk, act like this time it's going to come up and dismiss pragmatism or steady progress as boring.

[spt_claret]

The bench for our last cup game had Helm, Thomas, Dodgson and McGlynn on. More youngsters than seniors.

Ah but they should all be starting cup games.
So that they can moan about Dyche never taking cups seriously.

[AlargeClaret]

Bit of a curt slightly grubby statement from the club, and very much lacking in class. A slight dig at Dyche too which seems churlish . Of course they/we are a bit disappointed but it’s not a huge setback as the club knows exactly what is needed to get the cat 1 upgrade . It’s hugely more about being a prem team as far as academy recruitment goes right from the u7’s up .

[RVclaret]

Ah but they should all be starting cup games.
So that they can moan about Dyche never taking cups seriously.

TBF that game against Huddersfield was a perfect chance to play some youngsters, squad was stretched, battling covid etc.

Yet we played Lowton left back. Lennon up top and 4 central midfielders in midfield. Dodgson got 20 minutes.

[spt_claret]

One other point, there seems a bizarre correlation with the posters concerned about Cat one status and those also hugely concerned that we are likely to start this season with a centre half pairing produced by the best academy in the country……so is youth the go to for us or not? Why would players produced in our Cat one academy fair better than those produced in someone else’s?

Missing the point and an unfair conflation.
People want our academy to be as good as it can to produce the best players we can whether for our team or to provide revenue to keep the club healthy.
People aren't generally speaking against having young players signed.
The issue is having an over reliance or entirely focusing on youth to the detriment of experience may also impact actual on pitch results/league position in ways we don't want, and also that naturally it's financially better for the club to develop from its own academy than buy other youngsters, and better for long term playing sustainability to develop our own than rely on temporary loans which essentially risks turning us into a feeder/development club. Not that this means our current academy prospects are necessarily as good or even good enough for the Championship but they never will be if our facilities slip and we either cannot develop them or cannot retain them when Cat 1 clubs come calling.

[Tall Paul]

Yes because of the players available? I can’t pick players that arnt fit?

I highly suspect our back four will be

Roberts, THB, Riley, Maatsen when everyone is fit and firing

Don't you think McNally will be first choice?

[beddie]

Shocking getting rid of Pepper.I’ve never forgiven Eddie Howe either.

[spt_claret]

TBF that game against Huddersfield was a perfect chance to play some youngsters, squad was stretched, battling covid etc.

Yet we played Lowton left back. Lennon up top and 4 central midfielders in midfield. Dodgson got 20 minutes.

Lowton had been first choice RB most of the season and you increasingly see fullbacks switch sides now so I can understand it but would personally have played Dodgson over bardsley.
Lennon had a mini resurgence in form at the time. Understandable.
I'd have played just about anyone over Stephens.
Once again not saying Dyche was perfect he wasn't. Just making the point that if we played a more youthful team and lost it'd have been "why did we sign Stephens if he won't even play in the cup, Bardo's still decent, Lennon's played alright, he fielded a weak team and didn't take it seriously."
There's a small core of fans who will never credit Dyche- same reason they're trying to diminish everything he did. There's probably some who won't ever criticise him but I'm not in that camp, just trying to point out the risks and difficulties with bringing through youngsters from a grade 2-3/briefly 1 academy in a Premier League team reliant on survival.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Don't you think McNally will be first choice?

I would be surprised it’s a massive step up for him this season.

Going from mid to high finish in league one to pushing for promotion in the championship.

[claretonthecoast1882]

I would be surprised it’s a massive step up for him this season.

Going from mid to high finish in league one to pushing for promotion in the championship.

So on that basis you would dismiss Twine then too ?

[burnleytom]

I imagine we’ll get quite a few academy league debuts this year. As it stands, Thomas, Dodgson, Tucker, Costelloe and McGlynn seem well placed. I also think Mellon might push closer too. Helm seems decent, but there’s a lot of senior players in his position ahead of him.

The fact that we’ll have 5 subs, and that there are (hopefully) more chances of us being comfortably ahead/safe in games than at Premier League level make this more likely.

This will be both great and annoying in equal measures. It’ll give the ownership reason for positive spin with regards to youth development under their watch, which will help gloss over this shizzleshow of losing Cat 1 status.

I would have loved to have seen a statement from Paul Jenkins on his thoughts about this development…..

[Newcastleclaret93]

So on that basis you would dismiss Twine then too ?

Not dismissing either. I think they will both play key roles this season. The risk of playing an inexperienced Cb is much greater than at the other end of the pitch.

McNally will play but I don’t think he will be one of the starting CBs this season. I am pretty confident it will be Egan Riley and THB when fit.

Twine will play (I’m excited about him) but I do think Kompany is actively targeting players to have competition in them areas (hence the link to O’Hare).

[Devils_Advocate]

just trying to point out the risks and difficulties with bringing through youngsters from a grade 2-3/briefly 1 academy in a Premier League team reliant on survival.

....and doing it so succinctly as well where others would just waffle on and on and on.

[spt_claret]

....and doing it so succinctly as well where others would just waffle on and on and on.

Never claimed to be good at brevity, I'd rather provide detail to avoid being misinterpreted or having to re-explain. You don't have to read it though mate.

[Devils_Advocate]

Never claimed to be good at brevity, I'd rather provide detail to avoid being misinterpreted or having to re-explain. You don't have to read it though mate.

Thats much better, clear and straight to the point. Good to see you taking on my advice and making improvements to your posting so quickly

[arise_sir_charge]

The “who would you have played them instead of argument” is a nonsense one.

People aren’t saying these players should have been in the team week on week out. However there were plenty of opportunities to give players minutes here and there but the preference was to use the older players and “get minutes in their legs”.

Let’s be honest, if we have any sort of academy there should never be a reason for not having a full bench or running with two keepers on the bench, use the youngster to fill the spot. People have genuinely defended this in the past. For me it’s indefensible.

Also, people need to apply balance to the current situation, we still have bucket loads of experience in our squad and will no doubt have plenty on the starting XI on Friday.

[Paul Waine]

Anyone know where I can find out from the official sources exactly what determines whether an academy is cat 1, 2, 3 or 4? I've looked at the Premier League's site, including their Elite Player Performance Plan but can only find brief generalities.

[Raconteur]

It sounds like Reading had some serious issues, a lot of unhappy people there.

I know there is a lot of unhappy parents and youth players very unhappy. From what i have been told, even though they knew they were being downgraded, they did not announce it until after the latest crop of academy players signed up.