Benefit system to get a 10.1% pay increase

[BabylonClaret]

The amount of people I know on long-term sick, who have never officially worked but are well enough for side hustles is absolutely mindblowing... A tiny fraction of that 2.5m will be genuinely too sick to work... You'd have to be very naive to believe that the whole 2.5m is genuine...

Also, regarding your comment "Lot of them are just waiting for their issues to be fixed, but can't because of the issues with the NHS"... Do you have the stats to prove that or have you just made that up?

So why not give it a go yourself as someone else said. Surely it can't be hard to fake it to coin in some easy money and then do plenty of sideline work like those mind-blowing numbers you know doing this. You're a mug if you genuinely believe that's happening but don't have a go yourself.

Or if you are too moral to try that why not shop those mind-blowing numbers of people you personally know to be getting g sickness benefits but do loads of stuff on the side. It's fraud and illegal so just shop em.

[claret2018]

These people are the worst and pretty much lie through their teeth.

The common cold, influenza and now friggin covid are just three things that will put someone in a a state of not being fit for work.

You either do the right thing of staying off work to not splutter all over your coworkers whilst being unproductive OR go in because of your own selfish nature, potentially pass on whatever you have but it’s all fine because you won’t lose any pay despite potentially costing the business more by infecting others that will have to take time off.

It’s the same sort of people that think working from home shouldn’t be allowed because they spent 40 years being miserable trudging to work everyday so everyone else should.

[Jakubclaret]

Anybody fit & able receiving benefits should be forced to work & refusal should signify benefit withdrawal. People need to be litter picking or given jobs to do to prevent people from being idle & obese.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Never fails to disappoint....

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It’s the same sort of people that think working from home shouldn’t be allowed because they spent 40 years being miserable trudging to work everyday so everyone else should.

They're also the same people who don't approve of people earning money via social media/YouTube etc

[BabylonClaret]

Anybody fit & able receiving benefits should be forced to work & refusal should signify benefit withdrawal. People need to be litter picking or given jobs to do to prevent people from being idle & obese.

Why not give them a job doing that instead of paying a shitty benefit and expecting them to do a job?

[boatshed bill]

Welcome to the world of absolute ********.

"Anybody fit & able receiving benefits should be forced to work & refusal should signify benefit withdrawal. People need to be litter picking or given jobs to do to prevent people from being idle & obese."

How about "anybody fit and able to work shouldn't need benefits
or
Why should the government (or taxpayers) subsidise any business not paying their workers a realistic living wage?

[Jakubclaret]

Why not give them a job doing that instead of paying a shitty benefit and expecting them to do a job?

Because the system is setup the opposite way around it's easier to pick up & do the square root of bugger all. There's plenty of jobs but not enough incentives for the jobs to be attract enough to forfeit the benefits on offer.

[boatshed bill]

Because the system is setup the opposite way around it's easier to pick up & do the square root of bugger all. There's plenty of jobs but not enough incentives for the jobs to be attract enough to forfeit the benefits on offer.

I'm guessing one of those "incentives" would be a living wage.

[MancunianClaret]

Because the system is setup the opposite way around it's easier to pick up & do the square root of bugger all. There's plenty of jobs but not enough incentives for the jobs to be attract enough to forfeit the benefits on offer.

Or put it the other way round; some jobs simply don't pay enough to live on - minimum wage needs raising dramatically.

Zero hour/casual contracts need binning too - having full time hours one week and ten hours the next week is pure exploitation. How can anyone be expected to live or budget like that? They're also usually the type of jobs offered by companies already dodging vast amounts of taxation on their even vaster profits via creative accounting - they're taking the **** at both ends of the spectrum.

Both low wages and zero hour contracts mean the taxpayer has to pick up the tab to bridge the gap when it's not enough. It wouldn't be necessary to pay in-work benefits at all if jobs paid fairly and were secure. In work benefits are essentially welfare for business. Why aren't you and the original poster of this thread mad about that instead?

[Rowls]

https://www.health.org.uk/chart/chart-l ... -in-the-uk

https://www.britishjournalofnursing.com ... in-the-uk/

From that article: "existing EU workers in the UK could seek better paid employment elsewhere" (my italics)

And, unlike my article, no actual figures. Frightening stuff, eh.

It's a politicized article. If they had any evidence that Brexit had caused a drop in nursing numbers they'd be screaming it from the rooftops. Nurses "could" leave could have been written before Brexit.

[Big Vinny K]

From that article: "existing EU workers in the UK could seek better paid employment elsewhere" (my italics)

And, unlike my article, no actual figures. Frightening stuff, eh.

It's a politicized article. If they had any evidence that Brexit had caused a drop in nursing numbers they'd be screaming it from the rooftops. Nurses "could" leave could have been written before Brexit.

You are one very strange bloke sometimes Rowls.

You post an article to support your claim that does not even mention the NHS - weird or stupid I’m not sure.

I post 2 articles (I could have posted a dozen) which evidences that Brexit has had a direct impact on NHS staffing numbers and you question the bias of one of the articles.

As for shouting from the rooftops are you actually serious ?
The Royal College of Nursing have been shouting this for 6 years.

But I guess there is none so deaf as those who will not hear.

[Lancasterclaret]

Its peak Rowls to be defending Brexit

Going well isn't it you absolute spoon!

[Big Vinny K]

From that article: "existing EU workers in the UK could seek better paid employment elsewhere" (my italics)

And, unlike my article, no actual figures. Frightening stuff, eh.

It's a politicized article. If they had any evidence that Brexit had caused a drop in nursing numbers they'd be screaming it from the rooftops. Nurses "could" leave could have been written before Brexit.

Oh and I forgot to say that the articles I posted (unlike your article) actually mention the NHS.

Just to clarify that’s the same NHS that you raised initially when you started making stuff up.

Go and have a lie down sunshine.

[taio]

There are more NHS nurses now than in Jan-20.

[boatshed bill]

A 10% rise in benefits is almost guaranteed to see all that extra money back in the economy. It won't make claimants particularly better off.

[Rowls]

Oh and I forgot to say that the articles I posted (unlike your article) actually mention the NHS.

Just to clarify that’s the same NHS that you raised initially when you started making stuff up.

Go and have a lie down sunshine.

Your argument is so weak I'm not sure if you're deliberately trying to be funny here.

You're claiming that my article showing numbers of foreign workers going up isn't relevant because it doesn't specify "NHS"? Then you'll need to find some proof that the NHS is bucking the trend.

The RJN article you've linked talks about hypothetical situations and "could" and "would".

[Rowls]

Oh and I forgot to say that the articles I posted (unlike your article) actually mention the NHS.

Just to clarify that’s the same NHS that you raised initially when you started making stuff up.

Go and have a lie down sunshine.

So if you're just trying to engage me for the sake of it, for fun or some other childish game, you could at least take up a defensible position.

[Big Vinny K]

There are more NHS nurses now than in Jan-20.

I’m aware of that.
That does not take away from the fact that Brexit (2016) not only reduced the number of nurses by a number of nurses from EU countries deciding to go back to Europe but also had a direct impact on the numbers being recruited from EU countries post 2016.

Staff numbers in the NHS are going to increase year on year given the ageing population and change in demographics with the fastest growing part of the population being over 85s. The number of people using the NHS is growing far faster than the growth in the number of nurses and doctors.

[Lancasterclaret]

So if you're just trying to engage me for the sake of it, for fun or some other childish game, you could at least take up a defensible position.

Outstanding

[Lancasterclaret]

Your argument is so weak I'm not sure if you're deliberately trying to be funny here.

You're claiming that my article showing numbers of foreign workers going up isn't relevant because it doesn't specify "NHS"? Then you'll need to find some proof that the NHS is bucking the trend.

The RJN article you've linked talks about hypothetical situations and "could" and "would".

Outstanding x 2

[taio]

I’m aware of that.
That does not take away from the fact that Brexit (2016) not only reduced the number of nurses by a number of nurses from EU countries deciding to go back to Europe but also had a direct impact on the numbers being recruited from EU countries post 2016.

Staff numbers in the NHS are going to increase year on year given the ageing population and change in demographics with the fastest growing part of the population being over 85s. The number of people using the NHS is growing far faster than the growth in the number of nurses and doctors.

The healthcare workforce does not need to grow at the same rate as our older population. There is however currently a shortage of clinical staff despite the growth in workforce.

[2 Bee Holed]

Back to the OP.
This 10.1% rise is being quoted as fact.
Where is this definite information please?

For years, the CPI rate in September, has been applied the following April to benefits and pensions.
I assume people are arguing that shouldn't happen this year?
People do realise that approx 65% of the cost of this is in the state pension. Should that not go up either?

[Big Vinny K]

Your argument is so weak I'm not sure if you're deliberately trying to be funny here.

You're claiming that my article showing numbers of foreign workers going up isn't relevant because it doesn't specify "NHS"? Then you'll need to find some proof that the NHS is bucking the trend.

The RJN article you've linked talks about hypothetical situations and "could" and "would".

There are literally hundreds of links from nursing associations and publications showing the impact of Brexit on nursing numbers and recruitment. And many include statistics not just what could happen as you mention.
Go look for them yourself - it’s easy.

It is you who posted your comment that nursing numbers had not reduced due to Brexit.
It’s you who posted an article that did not evidence this point and did not mention nurses or doctors.
So it’s up to you to evidence what you are saying is correct.
You haven’t done that and tbh I could not give a f*ck whether you do or not now.
Time and time again you embarrass yourself on this board.

[Big Vinny K]

The healthcare workforce does not need to grow at the same rate as our older population. There is however currently a shortage of clinical staff despite the growth in workforce.

I’m not saying it does either.
The point is that just because the number of staff in the NHS has grown since 2020 does not mean that Brexit did not have the impact of reducing the number of nurses in 2017, 2018 etc

[Inchy]

It’s a sad but ultimately inevitable certainty that a low funded education system will breed low thinking individuals. The poor arguing with the poor, the thick arguing with the thick. All whilst the elite lap it up. What mugs people are, looking down for issues rather than up.

[timshorts]

There are more NHS nurses now than in Jan-20.

.......... Because we have been importing them from India and the Philippines to make up for the ones from Eastern Europe that have left the country, post brexit, to work elsewhere.

On other points: the benefits system is based primarily on the minimum amount a person needs to live. If the minimum amount needed goes up from n to n+10%, then you'd expect payments to go up by 10%. If something had to be cut then it should have been the triple lock, which will have to go at some point as it's continual existence is untenable.

There are lots of people, post covid, that have taken early retirement. This is helped by the variation allowing people to take chunks of their pensions early. It is a recipe for disaster. They don't put anything into the gdp, reduce their pension pot, and no doubt a lot of the ill advised among them will run out of pension cash prematurely and end up on pension credit (benefits) and a drain on the state.
The damage is unlikely to show up seriously for another 5-10 years minimum.

[Gaia]

Scotland's Health Secretary @HumzaYousaf says he cannot disassociate the workforce issues in the NHS and Social Care sector from the deep damage of Brexit.

One care home provider told @KevinStewartSNP that they lost 40% of their staff due to Brexit. That cannot be ignored.

[taio]

I’m not saying it does either.
The point is that just because the number of staff in the NHS has grown since 2020 does not mean that Brexit did not have the impact of reducing the number of nurses in 2017, 2018 etc

I'm not saying there aren't fewer EU nurses now working in the NHS.

The number of nurses in England has however grown by 40,000 since 2016.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not saying there aren't fewer EU nurses now working in the NHS.

The number of nurses in England has however grown by 40,000 since 2016.

Good job we've got those 40 new hospitals to put them in isn't it?

[taio]

.......... Because we have been importing them from India and the Philippines to make up for the ones from Eastern Europe that have left the country, post brexit, to work elsewhere.

I agree.

[Lancasterclaret]

I agree.

The rest of his post is spot on as well

If loads of people take early retirement, then the economy is very, very screwed sadly

[taio]

Good job we've got those 40 new hospitals to put them in isn't it?

I would prefer most of the additional nurses to be working in the community not in hospitals.

But you do know that it takes times to plan and build new hospitals? The state of play and preferred option in your area is to have a new hospital on a new site to replace Royal Lancaster Infirmary. But obviously that wouldn't be until 2030 at the earliest.

[Lancasterclaret]

I would prefer most of the additional nurses to be working in the community not in hospitals.

But you do know that it takes times to plan and build new hospitals? The state of play and preferred option in your area is to have a new hospital on a new site to replace Royal Lancaster Infirmary. But obviously that wouldn't be until 2030 at the earliest.

No, agree with you about the community

The problem with the RLI is it can't expand anywhere, and the trust has been really badly run for more than a couple of CE now

With WGH only being a cottage hospital (No A & E) really, its puts a lot of pressure on it and FGH

Bloody horrible working in it btw (I don't anymore, but I don't think things have got better)

[Big Vinny K]

I'm not saying there aren't fewer EU nurses now working in the NHS.

The number of nurses in England has however grown by 40,000 since 2016.

But in the immediate couple of years after Brexit is it not true to say that the number of nurses in the NHS reduced due to Brexit because the numbers of EU nurses leaving exceeded the number of non EU nurses arriving ?

[Jakubclaret]

The rest of his post is spot on as well

If loads of people take early retirement, then the economy is very, very screwed sadly

Copious amounts of assumptions with a bleak worse casebook scenario. So many factors could mitigate far too many to mention with not guaranteed longevity & maybe spouses who are more favourable & savings & equity release schemes.

[taio]

No, agree with you about the community

The problem with the RLI is it can't expand anywhere, and the trust has been really badly run for more than a couple of CE now

With WGH only being a cottage hospital (No A & E) really, its puts a lot of pressure on it and FGH

Bloody horrible working in it btw (I don't anymore, but I don't think things have got better)

It's why Lancaster and its surrounding areas needs a new hospital but supported by better and more community health and care services.

[Inchy]

Good job we've got those 40 new hospitals to put them in isn't it?

It pisses me off that people are calling these new hospitals. They are not new hospitals, they are new wings.

They are building a new wing at my hospital
In Leeds, and calling it a new hospital. It’s PR nonsense.

If I put an extension on my house it’s not a new house

[Lancasterclaret]

It pisses me off that people are calling these new hospitals. They are not new hospitals, they are new wings.

They are building a new wing at my hospital
In Leeds, and calling it a new hospital. It’s PR nonsense.

If I put an extension on my house it’s not a new house

I know Inchy, I thought people on here would know by now that I have absolutely zero time for our previous PM (not the one who was in for five minutes, crashed the economy and then left, the other one) and his promises

Taio is spot on about the issues in Morecambe Bay NHS Trust though

[Big Vinny K]

It pisses me off that people are calling these new hospitals. They are not new hospitals, they are new wings.

They are building a new wing at my hospital
In Leeds, and calling it a new hospital. It’s PR nonsense.

If I put an extension on my house it’s not a new house

Inchy - you are on the frontline (just like my wife was for 30 plus years).
What is your experience as to how Brexit impacted on the number and quality of nurses and doctors in the NHS ?

[Inchy]

I would prefer most of the additional nurses to be working in the community not in hospitals.

But you do know that it takes times to plan and build new hospitals? The state of play and preferred option in your area is to have a new hospital on a new site to replace Royal Lancaster Infirmary. But obviously that wouldn't be until 2030 at the earliest.

If you worked in hospital you wouldn’t be saying this.



I honestly fear for my family when I think about them potentially becoming patients.

That’s how bad it is.

[taio]

But in the immediate couple of years after Brexit is it not true to say that the number of nurses in the NHS reduced due to Brexit because the numbers of EU nurses leaving exceeded the number of non EU nurses arriving ?

Yes, it's incorrect to say the overall number of nurses reduced in England. They were static following the referendum and the numbers have increased following us leaving the EU.

[taio]

If you worked in hospital you wouldn’t be saying this.



I honestly fear for my family when I think about them potentially becoming patients.

That’s how bad it is.

I have worked in several hospitals and have worked in the NHS for 26 years.

Wouldn't be saying what?

[Inchy]

Inchy - you are on the frontline (just like my wife was for 30 plus years).
What is your experience as to how Brexit impacted on the number and quality of nurses and doctors in the NHS ?

To be honest I haven’t noticed a significant reduction in EU nurses, I’ve noticed a significant reduction in all but Indian nurses.

[Inchy]

I have worked in several hospitals and have worked in the NHS for 26 years.

Wouldn't be saying what?

As a clinical person on a ward?

That the majority of staff should go to community. It’s worse in hospitals

[Lancasterclaret]

If you worked in hospital you wouldn’t be saying this.



I honestly fear for my family when I think about them potentially becoming patients.

That’s how bad it is.

I can't speak for all Inchy, but the situation in Morecambe Bay is slightly more complicated because of the size of the trust, the fact that its been very badly run for too long and the absolute pressure on the two main hospitals in Barrow and Lancaster

With proper investment of community hubs, it would make a massive difference to it

But I fully agree that everywhere needs more, and its finding it, and getting it done

[Inchy]

Seriously the quality and quality of healthcare staff is worrying.

I fear for my family if they ever get unwell.

[taio]

As a clinical person on a ward?

I'm not a clinician on ward. What did I say that you disagree with?

[Inchy]

I'm not a clinician on ward. What did I say that you disagree with?

That the staff should go to community. I’ve worked both community and in hospital in recent years. Hospital is a scary place to be.

The worst I can say is how much I fear for my own family. Hospitals are not safe places, far from it. The quality of healthcare is horrendous

[Lancasterclaret]

Seriously the quality and quality of healthcare staff is worrying.

I fear for my family if they ever get unwell.

Mum was in a car crash yesterday (thankfully ok) but we had to take her to A & E because the police advised us that an ambulance wouldn't be there any quicker

Now, we don't mind, and she checked out ok but she really needed to lie down as she was very shaken and she couldn't do that either in the car or at A & E

Like you say, you don't want your family members to get ill at the moment