Principles.

[evensteadiereddie]

I’m not comparing it? I’m saying surely this is worth highlighting on the world stage at the next World Cup?

No, you weren't, you were trying to take the pi$$ and messed up.

[evensteadiereddie]

No, you aren't, you were trying to take the pi$$ and have messed up.

[Newcastleclaret93]

What’s worth highlighting? The fact that there are murders or the fact that a previous administration loaded the Supreme Court with conservatives to overturn Roe/Wade which the current administration don’t agree with but can’t do anything to reverse?

Surely it’s worth England and the BBC villianising the Americans about there gun laws and abortion laws?

[tiger76]

Does that matter it’s still a systematic issue that no one in the state is willing to change.

There disregard of womens rights in relation to abortion is also incredibly poor.

Hardly true that no-one is willing to change the US gun laws they've just passed a major bill through both houses with Bi partisan support.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/30/us/g ... ndex.html

Abortion is a Federal issue, and some states take a tougher stance than others on this specific issue, hence why there has been several referendums in various states recently.

Hardly close to what is happening in Qatar not by a country mile, but keep digging it's fun to read your constant defence of the Qatari regime with whataboutery.

[martin_p]

Surely it’s worth England and the BBC villianising the Americans about there gun laws and abortion laws?

Your equating the right to own a gun with it being illegal to be gay?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Your equating the right to own a gun with it being illegal to be gay?

No I am not equating it at all. I’m just trying to understand what the correct moral level is required for the actions to be taken.

So I assume in your point of view mass shootings and abortion laws are not worthy of the England team highlighting?

[martin_p]

No I am not equating it at all. I’m just trying to understand what the correct moral level is required for the actions to be taken.

So I assume in your point of view mass shootings and abortion laws are not worthy of the England team highlighting?

Well I don’t think anyone is arguing mass shooting are a good thing in America so I’m not sure what ‘highlighting’ would achieve. Abortion is a more nuanced issue, the right of the mother v the right of the unborn child, certainly not as black or white as whether your sexuality should be legal.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Well I don’t think anyone is arguing mass shooting are a good thing in America so I’m not sure what ‘highlighting’ would achieve. Abortion is a more nuanced issue, the right of the mother v the right of the unborn child, certainly not as black or white as whether your sexuality should be legal.

Fair enough, I personally think it’s a difficult argument to maintain. I don’t understand you can call out the Qatari issues and then be quiet as a mouse when you go to other locations.
The perfect example is the Beijing olympics, BBC and ITV did absolutely nothing and the Olympians highlighted no issues. Funnily enough I can’t remember there being pages and pages in this board against that either.

[martin_p]

Fair enough, I personally think it’s a difficult argument to maintain. I don’t understand you can call out the Qatari issues and then be quiet as a mouse when you go to other locations.
The perfect example is the Beijing olympics, BBC and ITV did absolutely nothing and the Olympians highlighted no issues. Funnily enough I can’t remember there being pages and pages in this board against that either.

I’m unsure what issue you’re wanting to highlight in the states. Some states have more liberal abortion laws than the U.K. so are you looking highlight abortion law on a state by state basis and comment on whether it’s too lax, too harsh or just right? That’s a big armband!

[Newcastleclaret93]

I’m unsure what issue you’re wanting to highlight in the states. Some states have more liberal abortion laws than the U.K. so are you looking highlight abortion law on a state by state basis and comment on whether it’s too lax, too harsh or just right? That’s a big armband!

No just a generic highlight of both there gun laws and abortion laws. I think it’s only fair.

Similar to the Beijing olympics, I have no idea how the BBC can go there and say nothing. But then not even show the opening ceremony at Qatar.

[martin_p]

No just a generic highlight of both there gun laws and abortion laws. I think it’s only fair.

Similar to the Beijing olympics, I have no idea how the BBC can go there and say nothing. But then not even show the opening ceremony at Qatar.

I think a basic understanding of either issue would be useful before doing any highlighting, I’d hope the BBC has a better grasp than you do!

[Newcastleclaret93]

I think a basic understanding of either issue would be useful before doing any highlighting, I’d hope the BBC has a better grasp than you do!

Google China and Urghurs. Then Google China and slave labour.

[martin_p]

Google China and Urghurs. Then Google China and slave labour.

I don’t need to Google it I’ve seen it on the news. You’ve shifted your whataboutery from the States then?

[Middle-agedClaret]

Principles, eh!
I think Groucho Marx could have been anticipating this World Cup with his thoughts on the subject. He said:

“Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.“
Prescient!

[fatboy47]

Genuinely interested to know where you'd have stood on Hitlers Berlin Olympics Newcastle.

No harm in a powerful chap flexing his muscles on a bigger stage I suppose..the superiority of the Aryan race, and all that, with a few Jews as collateral?
We went along with most of that without a whimper too.

[NottsClaret]

Abortion is a more nuanced issue, the right of the mother v the right of the unborn child, certainly not as black or white as whether your sexuality should be legal.

This is kind of what I was meaning, a few pages back, when I suggested FIFA were (purely by chance) correct about this. An issue is black and white to you - and I fully agree with your views here - but only because you're certain you're right. The Qataris, and a huge percentage of the world, are just as adamant they're right. Just as wearing a poppy is simply a given here, surely beyond debate.. but look at the division and fury as soon as somebody, quite understandably, has an issue with that gesture.

It all needs to go for me, let people from all over the world come together and compete at sport in any country, find a common interest etc and leave the lessons, preaching and symbolism out of it.

[Newcastleclaret93]

This is kind of what I was meaning, a few pages back, when I suggested FIFA were (purely by chance) correct about this. An issue is black and white to you - and I fully agree with your views here - but only because you're certain you're right. The Qataris, and a huge percentage of the world, are just as adamant they're right. Just as wearing a poppy is simply a given here, surely beyond debate.. but look at the division and fury as soon as somebody, quite understandably, has an issue with that gesture.

It all needs to go for me, let people from all over the world come together and compete at sport in any country, find a common interest etc and leave the lessons, preaching and symbolism out of it.

I agree with every word

[Nori1958]

This is kind of what I was meaning, a few pages back, when I suggested FIFA were (purely by chance) correct about this. An issue is black and white to you - and I fully agree with your views here - but only because you're certain you're right. The Qataris, and a huge percentage of the world, are just as adamant they're right. Just as wearing a poppy is simply a given here, surely beyond debate.. but look at the division and fury as soon as somebody, quite understandably, has an issue with that gesture.

It all needs to go for me, let people from all over the world come together and compete at sport in any country, find a common interest etc and leave the lessons, preaching and symbolism out of it.

Agreed.....
I do wonder how much thought is given to the principles of those who are forced to take part in gestures they don't agree with. It would be beyond stupid to think you could bring hundreds of young men from different backgrounds and countries and they all agree on whatever point is in question.
just let's have a competition where sport is the only matter being discussed

[martin_p]

This is kind of what I was meaning, a few pages back, when I suggested FIFA were (purely by chance) correct about this. An issue is black and white to you - and I fully agree with your views here - but only because you're certain you're right. The Qataris, and a huge percentage of the world, are just as adamant they're right. Just as wearing a poppy is simply a given here, surely beyond debate.. but look at the division and fury as soon as somebody, quite understandably, has an issue with that gesture.

It all needs to go for me, let people from all over the world come together and compete at sport in any country, find a common interest etc and leave the lessons, preaching and symbolism out of it.

Another person not equating like with like. Not being persecuted for being the person you were born as is a basic human right. If you want to equate persecuting homosexuals with something then equate it with apartheid and try and make the same argument. Wearing a poppy is a personal decision and you don’t get arrested for not wearing one.

[evensteadiereddie]

The problem is you can't let it go.
If it were merely a football competition, festival of football as it were, then it would be fair enough.
However, in these days of corporate crap, huge sums of money being involved, the awarding of the tournament to a non footballing country merely for financial reasons what do you seriously expect.
As we saw yesterday, with FIFA bending its own rules to accommodate the hosts by threatening the very players the tournament, you would think, depends on, priorities lie elsewhere and the corruption as well as any lack of objection to Qatar's stance towards certain members of the human race needs highlighting.

No, it might not change anything but it might create enough embarrassment to make think FIFA think on.

[daveisaclaret]

It all needs to go for me, let people from all over the world come together and compete at sport in any country, find a common interest etc and leave the lessons, preaching and symbolism out of it.

Unfortunately Notts, at a World Cup built on the deaths of thousands of mistreated migrant workers, where LGBT fans may not be safe, where a visiting woman fan who reports a sexual assault may not be safe, where a religious government is last-minute opposing itself in all sorts of ways it promised it wouldn't, the preaching and the symbolism is inherent.

For people who disagree with it to remain silent just lets all of that awful stuff go unchallenged, it wouldn't turn it into a magical happy event where everyone can come together. It might make it more fun watching on the telly if we all had our fingers in our ears and just watched them kick the ball but it would still be an overtly political event. It's just a question of which politics get discussed and which are left totally unchallenged regardless of the consequences.

[fidelcastro]

Homosexuality is illegal in eight of the 32 qualifiers for this world cup.

America has invaded over 50 countries since the end of world war two, and its recent treatment of Julian Asange is appalling.

Russia staged the last world cup after it had already annexed Crimea.

But let's all single out Qatar.

[Nori1958]

Unfortunately Notts, at a World Cup built on the deaths of thousands of mistreated migrant workers, where LGBT fans may not be safe, where a visiting woman fan who reports a sexual assault may not be safe, where a religious government is last-minute opposing itself in all sorts of ways it promised it wouldn't, the preaching and the symbolism is inherent.

For people who disagree with it to remain silent just lets all of that awful stuff go unchallenged, it wouldn't turn it into a magical happy event where everyone can come together. It might make it more fun watching on the telly if we all had our fingers in our ears and just watched them kick the ball but it would still be an overtly political event. It's just a question of which politics get discussed and which are left totally unchallenged regardless of the consequences.

Everybody knew about what is and isn't allowed long long ago.
All those taking part knew, all fans attending knew... The time to protest was prior to the competition starting.
no country was brave enough to pull out.. An odd armband here and there, but nothing really telling
once you accepted everything, and still go, just get on with what you are there for

[martin_p]

Homosexuality is illegal in eight of the 32 qualifiers for this world cup.

America has invaded over 50 countries since the end of world war two, and its recent treatment of Julian Asange is appalling.

Russia staged the last world cup after it had already annexed Crimea.

But let's all single out Qatar.

It’s being held in Qatar.

[martin_p]

Everybody knew about what is and isn't allowed long long ago.
All those taking part knew, all fans attending knew... The time to protest was prior to the competition starting.
no country was brave enough to pull out.. An odd armband here and there, but nothing really telling
once you accepted everything, and still go, just get on with what you are there for

And they all knew what FIFA and Qatar had promised everyone would be treated the same and beer would be on sale.

[daveisaclaret]

Everybody knew about what is and isn't allowed long long ago.
All those taking part knew, all fans attending knew... The time to protest was prior to the competition starting.
no country was brave enough to pull out.. An odd armband here and there, but nothing really telling
once you accepted everything, and still go, just get on with what you are there for

Shouldn't you be off faking your own death?

[Nori1958]

And they all knew what FIFA and Qatar had promised everyone would be treated the same and beer would be on sale.

And they believed them? More fool them

[keith1879]

Spiral your losing a lost battle.

It’s the culture/religion. Nothing is or will ever change. It’s one of the scenarios where you just accept it and move on.

Believe me....he has not lost any battle.

[keith1879]

You enjoy the comfort of blinkers and care only for your own entertainment. Fine. That's always been the first rung on the collaborationist ladder. I pray this country doesn't take a turn for the worse in my lifetime with people with your attitude so abundant.

I admire your optimistic belief that the country hasn't already taken that turn. Excellent posts by the way....I would "Like" all of them but thought a comment was more meaningful.