Why the panic?

[NewClaret]

Mid table , lots of injuries and Emery will be found out , Newcastle and Liverpool already have .

Really think it’s a bit early to be predicting final league positions for any teams 4 games in. 3 in our case. A lot can happen.

[NewClaret]

5 other teams conceded more than 3 this weekend - Luton, Wolves, Newcastle, United and Villa.

Just goes to show that teams with far more experienced defences/teams than ours can quite easily concede a few in this league.

[Casper2]

Three time Europa League winner Unai Emery will be found out? Ok.

Howe and Klopp already did ok

[Culmclaret]

I am not panicking because it is only a game. I always thought VK was an inspired appointment and hopefully that will still turn out to be the case. We got ourselves into a superb position by winning promotion so emphatically with a cohesive team and playing philosophy. But for whatever reason the club effectively decided to start again going out into the market place and spending £100m (allegedly). After three games there is little to be positive about in terms of that investment strategy. We have played three good sides at home and they have torn us apart, looking like they could pretty much score at will. In our third match we played what looked like one unfit centre back and two other defenders out of position. We tried to play it around at the back with a young goalkeeper who looked leagues below our established keeper in using his feet, inviting the opposition time after time to put us under needless pressure. If Spurs hadn’t stepped off the gas and we hadn’t shored things up a bit it could have been double figures. I trust that VK will work out how best to use the players he has in time, but am left with the unanswered question as to whether that will be good enough to survive because we seem to have some huge gaps in the squad. If he can sort this out VK really will be a miracle worker.

[Pearcey]

I’m not panicking because I didn’t expect much from the first few games. The extra anxiety for me stems from the money we’ve spent and the fear of what could happen if we’re relegated. I don’t think we will but it does weigh on my mind.

[StayingDown4Ever]

5 other teams conceded more than 3 this weekend - Luton, Wolves, Newcastle, United and Villa.

Just goes to show that teams with far more experienced defences/teams than ours can quite easily concede a few in this league.

None of them conceded more than 3 goals this weekend.

[KRBFC]

Villa got hammered today , nowhere near top 6 .
Spurs just knocked out of the cup

What does Spurs reserves getting knocked out of the Carabao Cup have to do with the price of cheese?

[kentonclaret]

None of them conceded more than 3 goals this weekend.

Luton didn’t even concede 3 losing 1-2.

[kentonclaret]

5 other teams conceded more than 3 this weekend - Luton, Wolves, Newcastle, United and Villa.

Just goes to show that teams with far more experienced defences/teams than ours can quite easily concede a few in this league.

Luton only conceded 2 and you omitted Fulham.

Burnley were the only team playing at home to concede over 3 goals this weekend.

[Carlos the Great]

I think it’s been a blessing we didn’t play Luton and hopefully we can sort out our formation and see which of the new 14 players aren’t going be suitable in the team by the time we play them .. We will need points against Luton that’s for sure if we are to stay up

[StayingDown4Ever]

Luton didn’t even concede 3 losing 1-2.

He had an absolute nightmare with that post didn’t he? How embarrassing for him.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Now that understat has updated following this weeks matches, the stats about our season are interesting (in comparison to the rest of the league).

According to Understat we have the lowest Xg out of every team in the league at 2.61 Xg. We also have the lowest points expected at 1.71Xp.

Surprisingly there are four teams with a worst expected goals conceded.

Some interesting things highlighted, Everton are massively underperforming their expected points (this suggests they are going to move up the table). Whislt Fulham are massively out performing their expected points.

Worth a look as it’s usually a good indicator of which direction teams are going to head in the near future.

[RVclaret]

Now that understat has updated following this weeks matches, the stats about our season are interesting (in comparison to the rest of the league).

According to Understat we have the lowest Xg out of every team in the league at 2.61 Xg. We also have the lowest points expected at 1.71Xp.

Surprisingly there are four teams with a worst expected goals conceded.

Some interesting things highlighted, Everton are massively underperforming their expected points (this suggests they are going to move up the table). Whislt Fulham are massively out performing their expected points.

Worth a look as it’s usually a good indicator of which direction teams are going to head in the near future.

That’s obviously quite skewed as we’ve played one game less than everyone else.

[Newcastleclaret93]

That’s obviously quite skewed as we’ve played one game less than everyone else.

True but it’s also useful to note what the teams around us are doing

[CrosspoolClarets]

This does NOT suggest Everton are going to move up the table. That’s a misunderstanding of the metric.

It means they are creating chances, but they could have Stevie Wonder up front and have the same stat, the chances need taking. Nothing in Everton’s signings or wider squad suggests they will score a lot of goals. That Beko chap is lucky to be 1 in 3 in a worse league and only plays 2,000 minutes a season, I’ll be surprised if he gets 10.

We have played 3 top 6 teams (definitely top 8). Our own xG stats will be skewed by that. Ignore them.

[Newcastleclaret93]

This does NOT suggest Everton are going to move up the table. That’s a misunderstanding of the metric.

It means they are creating chances, but they could have Stevie Wonder up front and have the same stat, the chances need taking. Nothing in Everton’s signings or wider squad suggests they will score a lot of goals. That Beko chap is lucky to be 1 in 3 in a worse league and only plays 2,000 minutes a season, I’ll be surprised if he gets 10.

We have played 3 top 6 teams (definitely top 8). Our own xG stats will be skewed by that. Ignore them.

That’s exactly what Expected points metric shows.

That they are currently underperforming there expect points

[claretspice]

I don't think anyone should be panicking at this stage, but there is cause for concern - both from the performances and what it appears we are trying to do from the 3 games played to date, and from the transfer business we've done.

I thought before the game yesterday that our team selection (which effectively had 2 out and out forwards and at least one winger with minimal defensive responsibility) left us too open, and I haven't changed my view.

It is only fair to acknowledge that that selection was influential in the goal we scored - which was glorious, with Amdouni, Berge and particularly Koleosho doing brilliantly, and which has been unfortunately overshadowed by the result. The team also pressed particularly well for the first 20 - 25 minutes, and I do wonder if the hot conditions played a role in allowing Spurs to get back into the game.

But the same strengths which contributed to the goal undoubtedly became a weakness as the half wore on. Out of possession, Amdouni did not appear to have a brief to lock on to Spurs' two defensive midfielders, which meant that Cullen and Berge were betwixt and between. They tended to elect to press high, and as a result left Maddison plus the Spurs front 3 4v4 with our back four. In possession we appeared even more wedded to building from deep than last season (interestingly that was something we started taking to an extreme 12 months ago, and became more pragmatic on through the autumn - perhaps that will repeat) - but we struggled to play through a really good Spurs press and couldn't find outballs other than to Foster and occasionally JBG - Amdouni was neither dropping into midfield nor holding the ball up with his back to goal. Equally, Amdouni and Koleosho were increasingly found wanting in their pressing and we couldn't stop Spurs getting out.

That was all exacerbated after the break when we suddenly left ourselves (i) with just 2 central midfield options to deal with the same 3 men, and ended up completely overloaded as a result, with the back 5 variously stepping up to try and compensate and leaving gaps in an increasingly chaotic backline, and (ii) with even fewer options to go long because JBG had gone off and neither Koleosho nor Amdouni were capable of getting us up the pitch to relieve pressure.

Dyche made a point of always retaining 2 midfielders goal side of the ball, because it meant we could avoid opponents finding the sort of space Maddison found repeatedly yesterday and that Villa found last week, and gave us half a chance in transition when we coughed up possession. That, plus the obvious point about a left back, is the key to getting some stability to this time. We need one more man sitting deeper to give us a chance. I think that can be Berge, and I think it would make him look better and the team look better. Equally, that then means a choice between attacking wingers and a third central midfielder and I think that we would be best served with Brownhill joining Berge and Cullen and then allowing 2 of the plethora of attacking options we have to flank Foster (who is the bright spot of the season so far).

That would also give us more experience. Brownhill and Taylor have nearly 200 appearances at this level behind them. Of course they have limitations, but they add physicality, can help us look more solid defensively and to press better (Brownhill does this especially well).

If that requires a change in philosophy, so be it. I suspect it would also mean that our summer transfer business will look slightly curious, because we placed an awful lot of focus on creativity in the final third and the reality is that we can only actually use 3 of those players (with the possible exception of Ramsey who might be an option in a midfield 3) at any one time. But needs must. We can get more expansive again if we crack this league later. For now, there needs to be a dose of pragmatism to give us a chance.

[Elizabeth]

Why the panic?

Best not to ask because it gives the panicked a field day as this weekend has shown.

It’s been laughable to read such comments as ‘ it doesn’t matter that we have played 3 teams destined for the Top 6’

Then there’s been the classic ‘ Kompany doesn’t know what he’s doing’

There’s a lot of you guys need to get real and stop whingeing so much !

[claretspice]

This does NOT suggest Everton are going to move up the table. That’s a misunderstanding of the metric.

It means they are creating chances, but they could have Stevie Wonder up front and have the same stat, the chances need taking. Nothing in Everton’s signings or wider squad suggests they will score a lot of goals. That Beko chap is lucky to be 1 in 3 in a worse league and only plays 2,000 minutes a season, I’ll be surprised if he gets 10.

We have played 3 top 6 teams (definitely top 8). Our own xG stats will be skewed by that. Ignore them.

Villa have been soundly thrashed by 2 other top 6 contenders which makes me wonder if they're all that. We just made it very, very easy for them to pick us off. The other team they beat is Everton. I don't think we should be complacent about the alarm bells that should come from that defeat, nor the ease with which Spurs cut through us yeseterday. We had one too many out and out attackers on the pitch, and a disorganised back line (particularly after the break). That can't be wished away by the perceived quality of the opposition, particularly not when in Villa's case in particular the evidence is so flimsy.

Yes, we've played 3 good teams (one of whom can most certainly be written off - City are in a league of one). But Villa and Spurs at home are traditionally the sort of games from which if you were hoping to finish in the 3rd quartile, you'd fancy taking something from, or at least running them close. We've been taken to the cleaners by both of them. Not cause for panic, but given our transfer business doesn't really address the weaknesses that were obvious, and Kompany's team selections and half time changes seem a little intransigent around the causes, it's not unreasonable to express concern.

[Darnhill Claret]

VK praised for half-time substitutions last season.

[Darnhill Claret]

If Berge plays deep he needs some cover behind as he tends to 'jockey' rather than tackle.

[Elizabeth]

Villa have been soundly thrashed by 2 other top 6 contenders which makes me wonder if they're all that. We just made it very, very easy for them to pick us off. The other team they beat is Everton. I don't think we should be complacent about the alarm bells that should come from that defeat, nor the ease with which Spurs cut through us yeseterday. We had one too many out and out attackers on the pitch, and a disorganised back line (particularly after the break). That can't be wished away by the perceived quality of the opposition, particularly not when in Villa's case in particular the evidence is so flimsy.

Yes, we've played 3 good teams (one of whom can most certainly be written off - City are in a league of one). But Villa and Spurs at home are traditionally the sort of games from which if you were hoping to finish in the 3rd quartile, you'd fancy taking something from, or at least running them close. We've been taken to the cleaners by both of them. Not cause for panic, but given our transfer business doesn't really address the weaknesses that were obvious, and Kompany's team selections and half time changes seem a little intransigent around the causes, it's not unreasonable to express concern.

This is a typical post that ignores what Kompany has told us about the team progressing as the season goes on.

[claretspice]

This is a typical post that ignores what Kompany has told us about the team progressing as the season goes on.

With respect, it doesn't ignore that at all. Indeed I observed the way the team progressed last season as a potential parallel to this season in the immediately prior post.

However, as Kompany was finding his way last season and the team was evolving, he started by pairing Cork, Cullen and Brownhill in midfield and making us really solid. In fact, the first thing he focused on getting right was our aggressive press. That set the foundation and enabled the fluid football to evolve later.

I don't doubt that the likes of Amdouni will become more impactful as the season wears on. However, there's two issues here - firstly this is a really tough league to either play catch up in, or to recapture confidence once it has been lost (particularly by inexperienced players). Secondly, at present I think there is a danger we are trying to play a way which may never be realistic for an inferior team of 11 players playing against a superior 11. Whilst the team may evolve and the players bed in, that remains a fundamental question. At present we're playing one too many attacking players in the team and it is leaving us wide open defensively. That may change as time goes on - I'm not sure it will, but we'll see. He can't afford to write off points and performances entirely right now, and the pragmatism he showed a year ago in at least some aspects of our play might be useful here in accelerating the development of the team. As I've said elsewhere, he's not been an underdog in his career before, and he's not routinely been part of an inferior team playing superior teams.

[Hibsclaret]

Absolutely this Elizabeth. We have people referencing Kompany saying we will improve all season as a stick that we haven’t improved since the City game. For all the tactical geniuses on here that knew what Kompany did at half time would definitely not work we just need to wait and see the new players bed in and get better.

Patience is the key as it was in the early part of last season. If you can’t see what the guy is trying to build you need to go to specsavers. That first goal on Saturday was incredible and gives us a glimpse of what we will be capable of when we get the balance between attack and defence right. It was unlikely to happen from day one with all the new signings particularly when one is as young as 18.

[Hibsclaret]

We’ve played catch up in this league in most seasons we have been in it. Far too early to be flapping.

[Elizabeth]

Absolutely this Elizabeth. We have people referencing Kompany saying we will improve all season as a stick that we haven’t improved since the City game. For all the tactical geniuses on here that knew what Kompany did at half time would definitely not work we just need to wait and see the new players bed in and get better.

Patience is the key as it was in the early part of last season. If you can’t see what the guy is trying to build you need to go to specsavers. That first goal on Saturday was incredible and gives us a glimpse of what we will be capable of when we get the balance between attack and defence right. It was unlikely to happen from day one with all the new signings particularly when one is as young as 18.

It is getting to a ridiculous stage when these posters are deliberately undermining teams like Spurs and Villa. Conveniently ignoring that Spurs are a different animal under their new manager and Villa were second only to City in points obtained in the second half of last season .
Really lazy and thoughtless observations like we usually do well against Spurs and Villa at home so we should have done better against them in the last two games doesn’t hold water. Then again Villa have just been beaten today at Anfield by a rampant Liverpool so I suppose it’s better to commentate now

[Darnhill Claret]

I think VK might look at our back 4 playing narrower or we need Cullen or Massengo to fill a gap when out of possession. Another alternative might be for our full-backs to play less wing back but that would need our forward wide players to play from wing-back starting positions when out of possession. So our forward/wing-backs will know they will be getting subbed at half-time or early in the second half. That might balance the stamina questions that will consequently arise. Whatever VK decides, I trust him implicitly to get it right in his own way.

[claretspice]

Really lazy and thoughtless observations like we usually do well against Spurs and Villa at home so we should have done better against them in the last two games doesn’t hold water.

Has anyone said anything remotely approaching this?

[Darnhill Claret]

I think that VK sees it as a challenge to accept and win. With the window now closed he can concentrate on coaching. He has probably had a little too much on his plate with one eye on recruitment.

[Hibsclaret]

Absolutely. There is also weird results early season where teams find form and integrate new players. Newcastle were top 4 last season and if we win at Forest we join them on 3 points from 4 games. I think we will all need to accept that under this manager some of our tried and trusted experienced players from a team that broadly had possession percentage stats in the 20’s and 30’s will not feature as much in this team, particularly as Kompany aims for us to reach the next level.

[Jakubclaret]

I think VK might look at our back 4 playing narrower or we need Cullen or Massengo to fill a gap when out of possession. Another alternative might be for our full-backs to play less wing back but that would need our forward wide players to play from wing-back starting positions when out of possession. So our forward/wing-backs will know they will be getting subbed at half-time or early in the second half. That might balance the stamina questions that will consequently arise. Whatever VK decides, I trust him implicitly to get it right in his own way.

VK needs to be looking at everything, you settle on a side & a formation which works or at least gives the best possible chance of it working far too much tinkering going on & over complicating.

[Elizabeth]

But Villa and Spurs at home are traditionally the sort of games from which if you were hoping to finish in the 3rd quartile, you'd fancy taking something from, or at least running them close. We've been taken to the cleaners by both of them.

What do you mean by traditionally ?

[Hibsclaret]

He means when we played without the ball for 70% of the time.

[burnleymik]

Why the panic?

Best not to ask because it gives the panicked a field day as this weekend has shown.

It’s been laughable to read such comments as ‘ it doesn’t matter that we have played 3 teams destined for the Top 6’

Then there’s been the classic ‘ Kompany doesn’t know what he’s doing’

There’s a lot of you guys need to get real and stop whingeing so much !

Yet you aren't refuting their points, instead you are moaning about them moaning!

The majority have constructive criticism (yes there are a few over-zealous types) and are discussing it from their own point of view. It's harmless and you don't have to read it to be fair.

[kentonclaret]

Ugo Emery has a fantastic record in Cup competitions and lifted the UEFA Cup 3 times as manager of Sevilla. Aston Villa are currently the 5/1 favourites to win the Europa Conference League after thrashing Hibernian over 2 legs. That will be Ugo Emery’s priority this season and is the best chance for them of lifting silverware. That is the main reason I think that they will finish outside of the top 6 but making the top 10.

[Elizabeth]

Yet you aren't refuting their points, instead you are moaning about them moaning!

The majority have constructive criticism (yes there are a few over-zealous types) and are discussing it from their own point of view. It's harmless and you don't have to read it to be fair.

The old moaning about moaning and don’t have to read comment. Just say you don’t agree with me , it’s much fairer

[claretspice]

What do you mean by traditionally ?

It means what it says. Im not referring specifically to burnley nor specifically to Villa or Spurs. You'd hope as a team aspiring to avoid a relegation dog fight to be competitive in games against teams on the margins of the top 6 race, and not get overwhelmed. We got overwhelmed not once but twice and the similarities between the performances are not cause for panic, but for concern.

The extract youve quoted doesn't say remotely what you imputed it to mean above, and still wouldnt if you misunderstood the exact point i was making. We can all do better than to wilfully distort what each other have said.

[Elizabeth]

It means what it says. Im not referring to burnley nor specifically to Villa or Spurs. You'd hope as a team aspiring to avoid a relegation dog fight to be competitive against teams on the margins of the top 6 race, and not get overwhelmed. We got overwhelmed not once but twice and the similarities between the performances are not cause for panic, but for concern.

The extract youve quoted doesn't say remotely what you imputed it to mean above. We can all do better than to wilfully distort what each other have said.

You posted you’d fancy taking something from them so I stand by my earlier comment

[claretspice]

You posted you’d fancy taking something from them so I stand by my earlier comment

I didn't, I said you'd at least fancy running them close. The words are there in black and white and they are even there in your quoted extract.

[Elizabeth]

But Villa and Spurs at home are traditionally the sort of games from which if you were hoping to finish in the 3rd quartile, you'd fancy taking something from

[claretspice]

If you selectively edit posts, you are distorting them. Nice try though. As I say, we should all discuss things better than that.

[123EasyasBFC]

Having watched the first half back, not long after scoring the first, Foster beats the defender in the box and has a simple square to Amdouni but he gets caught in too minds and ball goes out of player, that is a massive chance, one game soon it will click massively going forwards but we have to be ruthless

[Elizabeth]

If you selectively edit posts, you are distorting them. Nice try though. As I say, we should all discuss things better than that.

It’s an extract from your full post which I have previously quoted. As you say we should discuss things better

[NewClaret]

None of them conceded more than 3 goals this weekend.

Incorrect. Fulham conceded 5.

[NewClaret]

VK needs to be looking at everything, you settle on a side & a formation which works or at least gives the best possible chance of it working far too much tinkering going on & over complicating.

Can’t disagree with that.

Do feel we need our own identity and playing style without responding to other teams all the time.

[Carwin261]

Bloody Hell ,I wouldn’t have liked to be in the trenches with some on this board.

[Jakubclaret]

Can’t disagree with that.

Do feel we need our own identity and playing style without responding to other teams all the time.

It's barmy you stick with the tried & tested formula which worked last season & add a few additions that's all that was needed, that might have not worked but we wouldn't be any worse off that's for sure

[StayingDown4Ever]

Incorrect. Fulham conceded 5.

I was correct. You made no mention of Fulham. You listed four sides who conceded 3 goals and one side who conceded 2 goals and you stated they all conceded more than 3.

[jlup1980]

It is getting to a ridiculous stage when these posters are deliberately undermining teams like Spurs and Villa. Conveniently ignoring that Spurs are a different animal under their new manager and Villa were second only to City in points obtained in the second half of last season .
Really lazy and thoughtless observations like we usually do well against Spurs and Villa at home so we should have done better against them in the last two games doesn’t hold water. Then again Villa have just been beaten today at Anfield by a rampant Liverpool so I suppose it’s better to commentate now

I don't think fans are undermining our opponents. Far from it actually. As soon as the fixture list was released I looked at Luton and Forest as the only games we were likely to get points from in our first 8 games. The Luton game got moved and suddenly we onlu have one game in the first 7 that looks even remotely winnable. Our season was never really going to start in earnest until the end of October. However, as many have said, there are ways of losing and we haven't looked good in the first three games.

In my opinion VK is trying to run before he can walk. You have to start from a solid base and build from the back. That's what he did last season and it worked well in the end. For some reason he's rewritten his playbook and we're looking to build from the front, which is evident from his signing over the summer. We've bought more attack minded players than we needed and more than we can utilise.

We're disjointed at the back with square pegs in round holes and the midfield is chasing shadows whilst the rest of the team gets to grips with the tactics. It's a long season and we're not relegated yet, but we need to see some semblance of a team after the International break. Experience, shape and discipline are key in this division. Currently we look lacking in all three areas.

[Dark Cloud]

Having watched the first half back, not long after scoring the first, Foster beats the defender in the box and has a simple square to Amdouni but he gets caught in too minds and ball goes out of player, that is a massive chance, one game soon it will click massively going forwards but we have to be ruthless

This is absolutely correct and at that point we were playing well and actually on top and Spurs were struggling to cope. Without Maddison I think they'd have been there for the taking, but he almost single handedly dragged them back from the brink. However having said that we have to accept that the reason there's a degree of panic around is that we went from this very positive position, to being 2-1 down at half time and because instead of turning the screw we allowed two awful goals to go in, the first being from our own corner! We went from "comfortable" to chasing the game so, so easily. That's the worry. Offensively we're ok, defensively we're the softest of soft touches and in this league that's a huge worry. Last season when it wasn't quite clicking early on, it was clear that there was much more to come. The difference now is that our best defenders are being made to look naive.