Sander Berge

[CoolClaret]

No, I don't think it is because of the managers tactics or instructions, if so it means that the fault would be with players not being able to carry out those instructions.
However, football is made up of a player who is in possession of the ball, attempting to help his team to keep possession, until his team can create a chance and hopefully score.
Those not in possession have to do everything they can to gain possession, and until they do that, they have to prevent the other team from scoring.

Sander does have an unfortunate habit of giving possession away too often, when not under a great deal of pressure, and occasionally it will result in his team conceding.
When a player makes a mistake, with a misplaced pass, there is only one person to blame if that is what you want to do. I accept, that as the opposition is trying to force mistakes from us, all our players will make mistakes, some of which will result in conceding a goal.
I prefer to say that the goal at Everton was as a result of a great press from Calvert-Lewin. Don't see the point in looking to blame Muric.
When Muric allowed a backpass from Berge to roll past him, I accept that mistakes like that happen, not often, but they happen. That wasn't the first time that I have seen that happen to a goalkeeper. Although it is a sickener when it happens, teammates and supporters need to get behind the players involved. All keepers, all players, are capable of giving goals away or being partly responsible for conceding, but that's football.
I have to say that our fans this season, on matchdays, have been brilliant at supporting players when we have conceded 'bad goals'.
A lot of posters on here could take note.

Mistakes in dangerous areas of the pitch get heightened and they get forgotten about at the other end.

Tin hat on here (and I do really like the player) but Koleosho, for all his good 1v1 dribbling and getting to the byline, was extremely sloppy in possession with his passing. He can obviously get better at this aspect of his game, but it's not something that anyone would necessarily point out, as the result from the 'mistake' isn't catastrophic.

If a team played mistake free football, then they'd win 10-0 every week - better players make less mistakes yes, but it's also up to the manager to give them a platform to minimise the chance of the players making a mistake/lessening the severity of it.

[IanMcL]

With respect Ian, nice guy that I'm sure you are, you are probably the last person on this messageboard that I would take any notice of when it comes to anything to do with football.

that's OK.

We will all see as the weeks go on.

[ClaretPete001]

No, I don't think it is because of the managers tactics or instructions, if so it means that the fault would be with players not being able to carry out those instructions.
However, football is made up of a player who is in possession of the ball, attempting to help his team to keep possession, until his team can create a chance and hopefully score.
Those not in possession have to do everything they can to gain possession, and until they do that, they have to prevent the other team from scoring.

Sander does have an unfortunate habit of giving possession away too often, when not under a great deal of pressure, and occasionally it will result in his team conceding.
When a player makes a mistake, with a misplaced pass, there is only one person to blame if that is what you want to do. I accept, that as the opposition is trying to force mistakes from us, all our players will make mistakes, some of which will result in conceding a goal.
I prefer to say that the goal at Everton was as a result of a great press from Calvert-Lewin. Don't see the point in looking to blame Muric.
When Muric allowed a backpass from Berge to roll past him, I accept that mistakes like that happen, not often, but they happen. That wasn't the first time that I have seen that happen to a goalkeeper. Although it is a sickener when it happens, teammates and supporters need to get behind the players involved. All keepers, all players, are capable of giving goals away or being partly responsible for conceding, but that's football.
I have to say that our fans this season, on matchdays, have been brilliant at supporting players when we have conceded 'bad goals'.
A lot of posters on here could take note.

I'm struggling to make sense of this tbh. If a manager asks a player to do something he patently can't do then it's not the players fault. When Al Dhakil was asked to play RB against Son that was not his fault. When Cullen gets dropped because he's left on his own in a high pressing 4-3-3 it's not his fault. When Foster plays poorly because he's asked to play as a right winger it's not his fault. When Trafford is patently not ready for the PL - it's not his fault.

They can't follow instructions because the instructions are not tailored to the ability and preparedness of the player.

Sander has had to carry the team for much of the season in a high possession passing side and he's not Kevin De Bruyne. The top 14 PL sides have midfielders as good as and better than Sander Berge. Cork and Westwood would have given the ball away more if they had to take it off Pope for 90 minutes and pass their way up the pitch.

In fact as good as they were I doubt they could do it even if God instructed them to do it.

[Darnhill Claret]

Well, I expect all premier league first team players, to be able to follow instructions as to how they should play. I expect them to put into practice what they have been doing on the training pitch. If a player makes a mistake it doesn't mean that the instructions were wrong, rather that they haven't performed to the expected level. But in every game there are eleven players trying to stop our team achieving. It is the nature of competitive sport, and of course a bad bounce or a bad touch, or a bad pass gives the advantage to our opponents.
When we pass to our teammates weaker foot, the likelihood is, that the next pass will be a safety first pass, square, backwards, or to our keeper. This happened too often and when it happens, our momentum stalls.
With Muric holding a higher line than Trafford, it does at least eliminate a pass or two, too deep. But the original error, happens with the first misplaced pass. We need to accept though, that mistakes are a part of a game of football, and our goals are often a result of our opponents making a mistake or two.
All keepers, even the very best, regularly make mistakes during games and over the course of a season. Not all errors are punished by goals, so many go unnoticed.

[Darnhill Claret]

The bottom line is we need to play better, make fewer mistakes, score a higher % of chances, irrespective of who the manager or coach is.

[dsr]

Well, I expect all premier league first team players, to be able to follow instructions as to how they should play. I expect them to put into practice what they have been doing on the training pitch. If a player makes a mistake it doesn't mean that the instructions were wrong, rather that they haven't performed to the expected level. But in every game there are eleven players trying to stop our team achieving. It is the nature of competitive sport, and of course a bad bounce or a bad touch, or a bad pass gives the advantage to our opponents.
When we pass to our teammates weaker foot, the likelihood is, that the next pass will be a safety first pass, square, backwards, or to our keeper. This happened too often and when it happens, our momentum stalls.
With Muric holding a higher line than Trafford, it does at least eliminate a pass or two, too deep. But the original error, happens with the first misplaced pass. We need to accept though, that mistakes are a part of a game of football, and our goals are often a result of our opponents making a mistake or two.
All keepers, even the very best, regularly make mistakes during games and over the course of a season. Not all errors are punished by goals, so many go unnoticed.

If a manager were to tell his team to lump it up front to Adrian Heath for him to win the knock-downs, and Adrian Heath did not win the knock downs, it would be the manager at fault, not Heath.

Players have to be able to some extent to play to their strength. It's all very well saying (as you presumably do say) that Al Dakhill ought to be able to play at right back and if he can't it's his fault, but it's no use the manager telling a player to do what he isn't good at because he clearly is not going to do it well.

[jlup1980]

----------Muric
-----O'Shea-Esteve
-----Cullen-Berge
--------Brownhill

would arguably the strongest spine of any team in Champ history. Should just blow teams off the pitch!

We have an embarrassment of riches at CB too. Beyer and Ekdal have both shown their quality at Championship level, as had Al Dakhil to be fair. We clearly won't keep everyone in the squad but we have enough options to know we'll have a strong 11 come August. We're a left back and a striker away from a dominant team for me.

Muric / BPF
Sambo / Vitinho
New / Taylor (or Dodgson if Taylor doesn't sign a new deal)
Beyer / O'Shea / Esteve / Ekdal / Al Dakhil
Cullen / Berge / Brownhill / Ramsey / Massengo
Koleosho / Zaroury / Benson / Odobert
New / Jay / Foster

This doesn't even include a number of players. Roberts, Delcroix, Amdouni, Redmond, Tresor, Churlinov, Egan-Riley... we need to trim the squad massively but if we keep the right group we shouldn't need to add very much.

[Darnhill Claret]

Well, I wouldn't expect Heath or anyone to win all the knockdown because, as I said, there are 11 players trying to stop us successfully executing our game plan. So my expectation would be to win a number of knockdowns, to create a couple of goalscoring opportunities in the game. But that would only be one aspect of the game plan. That might be one possibility from a set-piece. If our general play meant we were able to get 2 or 3 players into the box in open play, it could also be an open-play strategy. The reason why the 'long ball game' is frowned upon, is because some teams seem to only have that way of playing in their overall strategy. But when the likes of Liverpool have that as just one possibility, then it is looked on more favourably.
If I look at the players available to me for a game, and my regular first choice full back is unavailable or out of form, then I might ask a central defender to play full back, rather than promote a 17 year old, who I don't consider to be ready. If that player has a good game he might get more games there, or be my 'go to' player when I need a centre back to play in a different role. I will only find out which players are the more adaptable through games, when I choose to play them out of their regular positions.
If I'm going to play to the strengths of my players, I need to discover all of their strengths.
If I decide that all my players are limited to just one position, then my game strategies are reduced. It will also limit positions that those players can take up during a game, which in turn will further limit my tactical options.
I want players who can carry out my tactical instructions, even if they have specific strengths to be utilised in games which might help me to decide what roles they will have.
For instance, Zeki Amdouni has great footballing skills in twisting and turning. I would have played him further forward, as far forward as possible. A lot of what he tried, didn't come off, but when it did we hardly ever gained much from it, because it was in the middle of the field, so a chance wasn't created. If those twists or turns happened in the penalty area, there might have been chances created. We know he can score goals, so again, he should spend more time in the box. When he looked for a 1-2, the ball rarely came back to him. That needs more work on the training ground.
Foster, Odobert, Amdouni should be practicing edge of penalty area routines, so that it becomes second nature. I would expect at least 5 goals/assists to come from specific training ground routines practiced by these 3, maybe more.

[Darnhill Claret]

There are some simple tweaks to our play that would make a big difference.

OK, we have possession half way in their half of the pitch. We are going forward, down the left, where you might expect a number 10. One of our midfielders has the ball and he decides he's going to play the ball along the ground out wide to our number 11 (winger) or our number 3 (marauding full-back). The man we are passing to is 5 to 10 yards ahead of our man with the ball. The pass is not a good one. It has been slightly overhit and so runs out of play. Move has broken down. Throw in to our opponents.

THE TWEAK.

Same scenario, but this time our right footed midfielder hits the pass with the outside of his right foot, so although slightly ahead of his teammate down the line, the ball stays in play and our man still gets to the ball first.
Now, I saw this happen several times last season with the same outcome of the ball going out of play. I accept that it would be even easier if our right footed midfielder had the confidence to pass with his left foot, but at match speed, it is less likely to happen that way but with practice the outside of the foot is easier to coach.

[Darnhill Claret]

The other tweaks we need to make, would create more space, especially at dead ball situations, but also when overloading at the far post.
We are particularly poor in this area, but so are a lot of teams. It is an area where we could gain big advantages.

[CoolClaret]

Well, I expect all premier league first team players, to be able to follow instructions as to how they should play. I expect them to put into practice what they have been doing on the training pitch. If a player makes a mistake it doesn't mean that the instructions were wrong, rather that they haven't performed to the expected level. But in every game there are eleven players trying to stop our team achieving. It is the nature of competitive sport, and of course a bad bounce or a bad touch, or a bad pass gives the advantage to our opponents.
When we pass to our teammates weaker foot, the likelihood is, that the next pass will be a safety first pass, square, backwards, or to our keeper. This happened too often and when it happens, our momentum stalls.
With Muric holding a higher line than Trafford, it does at least eliminate a pass or two, too deep. But the original error, happens with the first misplaced pass. We need to accept though, that mistakes are a part of a game of football, and our goals are often a result of our opponents making a mistake or two.
All keepers, even the very best, regularly make mistakes during games and over the course of a season. Not all errors are punished by goals, so many go unnoticed.

It seems to me like your opening and closing premise are in contradiction of one another.

I just see it akin to hazard prevention - "what's the likelihood of this going wrong" & "if it does go wrong, what will be the severity of it".

Playing a ridiculously high amount of passes deep in your own half will eventually lead to a 'mistake' and the result of that mistake will normally be a decent chance on goal. I fully understand the argument the other way is that beating the press opens the pitch up for one of our chances on goal but I think that, last season especially, we were harmed far more than we prospered with that strategy and also believe it should be far more situational (pick and choose our moments) rather than overtly forcing it.

Backing up ClaretPete's point (and many other posters' throughout the season), a three man midfield with Brownhill furthest forward of the three instead of Amdouni, we'd have been better at pressing the opposition, more defensive solidity and I think just as good with the ball; Brownhill gets a bit of stick for his quality on the ball in the PL but he still managed 4 goals 2 assists from a deeper position and a similar number of games and minutes.

These little tweaks in personnel, play style, defensive line height would have absolutely given us a better platform to go and win more points in the PL and so we need a manager that isn't rigidly stuck to one ideology on how to play the game of football.

[Darnhill Claret]

Hi CoolClaret.
Well I've reread my post and I don't see a contradiction. When I say a player should be able to play as required and instructed by the coach, that doesn't mean to the exclusion of mistakes. As I've always said all players will make individual mistakes, added to our opponents playing their game as well and the other team can always be better on the day, as we saw many times last season.
Because I expect mistakes and accept that our opponents may play better than us, might be why I don't get my knickers in a twist after every game that we fail to win.
I can also see that we can play some good football in a game but end up losing it.
I think that's where VK succeeded and at the same time failed. Maybe instead of trying to change in order to prevent losses, he concentrated on improving the players to play his game better, for better results. So although the players were arguably better after a season in the prem, they weren't good enough to earn a second season. I was looking forward to another VK season. Now I'm looking forward to a season under the guidance of, who knows, but I hope we place a greater emphasis on results in order to achieve another promotion. UTC.

[Darnhill Claret]

I hope that Sander stays, but I'm a realist, and we have to balance our hopes with Sander's personal ambitions.

[CoolClaret]

Hi CoolClaret.
Well I've reread my post and I don't see a contradiction. When I say a player should be able to play as required and instructed by the coach, that doesn't mean to the exclusion of mistakes. As I've always said all players will make individual mistakes, added to our opponents playing their game as well and the other team can always be better on the day, as we saw many times last season.
Because I expect mistakes and accept that our opponents may play better than us, might be why I don't get my knickers in a twist after every game that we fail to win.
I can also see that we can play some good football in a game but end up losing it.
I think that's where VK succeeded and at the same time failed. Maybe instead of trying to change in order to prevent losses, he concentrated on improving the players to play his game better, for better results. So although the players were arguably better after a season in the prem, they weren't good enough to earn a second season. I was looking forward to another VK season. Now I'm looking forward to a season under the guidance of, who knows, but I hope we place a greater emphasis on results in order to achieve another promotion. UTC.

I appreciate that but at the same time imo, it is a little myopic.

Ok well if they attempt to carry out as required/instructed by the coach but it results in (a lot) more losses than wins/draws, then surely the problem is with the coach's approach to the game?

I also don't mind not winning all the time but definitely get frustrated if I feel that the players are effectively being hung out to dry and not set up for success - and I appreciate that in the long run you often have to take a step back to go two steps forward but....

...Improving players is great but that's also what development football and loans down the football pyramid are for. Ultimately, we had a very, very good chance of retaining PL football (two teams around us with points taken off, the other two promoted teams not being particularly strong) and we returned a feeble effort.

I'm not sure how losing most weeks is good for player development either - out of the youngsters last season who can you really say developed and kicked on? Koleosho looked better until his injury but I think the rest of them stayed the same or even appeared to regress.

Thomas Frank realised he had to adapt his style with Brentford and just look how they've prospered!.. If you can get up and stay in for a season, you can really kick on - massive missed opportunity for me but hey ho on we go.

[Darnhill Claret]

Oh I agree, I would have much preferred to have stayed up.
I disagreed with Trafford starting as first choice. I wanted a scenario similar to when Nick Pope came to the club. I couldn't see the rush. Even as a signing seen purely as an investment, I didn't see the point in the urgency.
I think we started the season with two good keepers. After the preseason game against Benfica I was sure Muric would be given the jersey. Mind you I also thought Townsend might have earned himself a 1 year contract after his performance, so that was 2 things I got wrong based on that 1 game.

I think that some players learn more when they go through a level of adversity so I wasn't too concerned about losses although I didn't like the continuing trend of consecutive defeats.

Whatever happens I try and look for the positives, so I guess I might look at things differently to most. I also like fans to have 'blind faith' and see the bigger picture even when that might not be easy.
I was a fan of Garlick putting money into our bank account although with hindsight he overdid it and it ended up costing us our premier league and our manager eventually. Whatever is done, however the club is managed it's difficult to get the balance right. I'm now a fan of AP doing it his way, although there will probably come a day when it goes wrong, but until then I'll enjoy the ride. For Burnley it's very different.

I enjoy football and I enjoy BurnleyFC. UTC

[Darnhill Claret]

Some people are just naturally negative. I don't want to get on that train thanks.